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So next door’s garden is about 1 foot higher than mine with new panelled fence along the boundary. Presently we have a flower bed sloping up to level of their garden i.e. base of fence. Am converting flower bed to flat lawn space as more suited to kids, thinking of using sleepers to hold back their garden and stop it collapsing into mine under fence when I level out the flower bed. Using sleepers (with their narrow edge facing down), think it would only need 1 sleeper, possibly 2. Seems easy enough to join two together if needed with some timberlock screws, but question is, how do I keep the sleeper upright and holding back the ground on other side?
All the online guides are for much higher retaining walls so have steel H beams – can I just use short fence posts? Or some metal rods that have some lateral strength – these would be easiest to bang into ground I think, if such a thing exists. Would prefer to avoid using concrete if possible.
Anyone else done this, thoughts welcome!
All the online guides are for much higher retaining walls so have steel H beams – can I just use short fence posts? Or some metal rods that have some lateral strength – these would be easiest to bang into ground I think, if such a thing exists. Would prefer to avoid using concrete if possible.
Anyone else done this, thoughts welcome!
In reply to d508934:
You might want to consider a dry stone retaining wall. It has the advantage that it is self draining and will last longer. Look on the Dry Stone Wall Association website for the specification.
You might want to consider a dry stone retaining wall. It has the advantage that it is self draining and will last longer. Look on the Dry Stone Wall Association website for the specification.
In reply to d508934:
Worth thinking about what's supporting the existing fence and what will happen (if anything) should you dig the soil away from one side of all the post placements. Will it just blow into your garden in the first autumn gale?
jk
Worth thinking about what's supporting the existing fence and what will happen (if anything) should you dig the soil away from one side of all the post placements. Will it just blow into your garden in the first autumn gale?
jk
In reply to jkarran:
good point. think the fence posts are in metal spikes, not concrete - so presumably as I'd be replacing soil on my side with sleeper (that is somehow secured to the ground) i'd be ok.
will check out the drystone wall recommendation too, suspect it may need more skill and budget than i have though!
good point. think the fence posts are in metal spikes, not concrete - so presumably as I'd be replacing soil on my side with sleeper (that is somehow secured to the ground) i'd be ok.
will check out the drystone wall recommendation too, suspect it may need more skill and budget than i have though!
In reply to d508934:
I would use part of a sleeper as an upright ( obvs dug in to a depth and is as high as the sleepers it supports) to support the other sleepers and keep them from tipping forward.
If you are thinking of a dry stone type wall have, you considered gabions ?
I would use part of a sleeper as an upright ( obvs dug in to a depth and is as high as the sleepers it supports) to support the other sleepers and keep them from tipping forward.
If you are thinking of a dry stone type wall have, you considered gabions ?
Post edited at 12:48
In reply to d508934:
If you're only retaining 1' of soil, it won't take much to do so. Your idea of short posts driven into the ground then sleepers/similar should do the job fine. How robust are the founds for the existing panelled fence posts, as you don't want to undermine those when you remove your 1' of soil?
If you're only retaining 1' of soil, it won't take much to do so. Your idea of short posts driven into the ground then sleepers/similar should do the job fine. How robust are the founds for the existing panelled fence posts, as you don't want to undermine those when you remove your 1' of soil?
In reply to d508934:
It might be best to lay them wider side down and have two rows as this will give them some structural integrity (and also make a nice bench to sit on). They can weigh quite a bit which helps hold the dirt in place without cementing in. For the second row, cut a sleeper in half so you stagger the vertical joins, then as you say timberlock into each other.
It might be best to lay them wider side down and have two rows as this will give them some structural integrity (and also make a nice bench to sit on). They can weigh quite a bit which helps hold the dirt in place without cementing in. For the second row, cut a sleeper in half so you stagger the vertical joins, then as you say timberlock into each other.
In reply to Morgan Woods:
that sounds quite appealing. would i need anything vertical to stop sideways movement or is weight of them alone gonna be enough?
that sounds quite appealing. would i need anything vertical to stop sideways movement or is weight of them alone gonna be enough?
In reply to gd303uk:
ok get what you mean, could use a cut short sleeper as the upright. cut with a V point and banged in? if i dig a hole for one that doesn't have a V point guess it would need to be set in concrete? think fence posts with metal spike may be easier an avoid the concrete faff.
ok get what you mean, could use a cut short sleeper as the upright. cut with a V point and banged in? if i dig a hole for one that doesn't have a V point guess it would need to be set in concrete? think fence posts with metal spike may be easier an avoid the concrete faff.
In reply to d508934:
Maybe go for a two layer solution, one buried, and then use some rebar/long coachscrews to keep them in alignment. If you use the rebar you'd be able to stake them down by knocking them into the underlying soil.
Jim
Maybe go for a two layer solution, one buried, and then use some rebar/long coachscrews to keep them in alignment. If you use the rebar you'd be able to stake them down by knocking them into the underlying soil.
Jim
In reply to d508934:
If it's only a foot of retention you have, that's hardly any load you'll be having to support. Think of it as a foot wide when viewed from above, and at an angle of 45° when viewed in section, assuming your neighbour's ground is level. That's hardly any weight at all.
What I'm trying to say is, you won't need any concrete.
If it's only a foot of retention you have, that's hardly any load you'll be having to support. Think of it as a foot wide when viewed from above, and at an angle of 45° when viewed in section, assuming your neighbour's ground is level. That's hardly any weight at all.
What I'm trying to say is, you won't need any concrete.
In reply to Fraser:
great, v happy to avoid using concrete! you reckon that (albeit small) weight would require the sleepers to be braced? suppose the weight of the ground will change in say heavy rain, wouldn't want any creep.
rebars sound possible, so if needs bracing then either them or fence posts.
great, v happy to avoid using concrete! you reckon that (albeit small) weight would require the sleepers to be braced? suppose the weight of the ground will change in say heavy rain, wouldn't want any creep.
rebars sound possible, so if needs bracing then either them or fence posts.
In reply to d508934:
I think your main problem may be (as somebody else suggested) making sure you don't undermine the existing fence. If you are cutting back a foot depth of soil, you could be cutting back around half of the existing support for the fence posts/metal spikes supporting the fence. If its a small picket fence, probably not much of an issue but if its solid panels and/or a 6 foot job the wind load on it will be considerable at times.
I think I'd probably cut back the soil and lay 2 or 3 layers of sleepers to get enough height, and whack in some fence posts to support it all. Try to get (depending on how soft the ground is) lengths at least double the height of your wall so that at least 50% of post is buried. Do that all strong enough and the sleeper wall will support the fence and its posts. I'd probably be tempted to bury most or all of a sleeper too to give greater strength. Using them on the wide side as somebody else said makes a nicer feature/seat of it and makes it even more structural, but does increase the number you use a fair bit.....
I have done a fair few small walls and raised beds etc... I've found 200 by 100mm sleepers a pretty good size and at about 30 to 35kg for a 2.4m length they are manageable (modern softwood treated ones... genuine old used sleepers weigh a ton and tend to leak tar and oil). 150 and 200mm screws I got from screwsdirect I think and 300s for screwing down through ones laid on the thin edge I got off ebay. You might consider backfilling on the neighbours side under the fence with gravel and possibly putting the buried sleeper on a gravel bed too to aid drainage and as the gravel helps level everything off when laying in any case. An auger bit to drill pilot holes for the screws is handy. Most of the screws use a star or bolt driver and most tend to come with the correct bit in each pack bought.
I think your main problem may be (as somebody else suggested) making sure you don't undermine the existing fence. If you are cutting back a foot depth of soil, you could be cutting back around half of the existing support for the fence posts/metal spikes supporting the fence. If its a small picket fence, probably not much of an issue but if its solid panels and/or a 6 foot job the wind load on it will be considerable at times.
I think I'd probably cut back the soil and lay 2 or 3 layers of sleepers to get enough height, and whack in some fence posts to support it all. Try to get (depending on how soft the ground is) lengths at least double the height of your wall so that at least 50% of post is buried. Do that all strong enough and the sleeper wall will support the fence and its posts. I'd probably be tempted to bury most or all of a sleeper too to give greater strength. Using them on the wide side as somebody else said makes a nicer feature/seat of it and makes it even more structural, but does increase the number you use a fair bit.....
I have done a fair few small walls and raised beds etc... I've found 200 by 100mm sleepers a pretty good size and at about 30 to 35kg for a 2.4m length they are manageable (modern softwood treated ones... genuine old used sleepers weigh a ton and tend to leak tar and oil). 150 and 200mm screws I got from screwsdirect I think and 300s for screwing down through ones laid on the thin edge I got off ebay. You might consider backfilling on the neighbours side under the fence with gravel and possibly putting the buried sleeper on a gravel bed too to aid drainage and as the gravel helps level everything off when laying in any case. An auger bit to drill pilot holes for the screws is handy. Most of the screws use a star or bolt driver and most tend to come with the correct bit in each pack bought.
In reply to Ferret:
thanks, this is v helpful. UKC at it's finest!
liking more and more the thought of layering them up, plus one underground as foundation/base to increase the integrity of the whole thing.
what kind of drill am I needing for these super screws? regular (mains powered) drill gonna cut it?
thanks, this is v helpful. UKC at it's finest!
liking more and more the thought of layering them up, plus one underground as foundation/base to increase the integrity of the whole thing.
what kind of drill am I needing for these super screws? regular (mains powered) drill gonna cut it?
In reply to d508934:
I was using cordless but even drilling pilot holes the 2 I used were struggling a fraction.... That's a bit of a how long is a piece of string based on battery power/quality of what you are using. But certainly not impossible for standard/reasonable quality cordless, possibly with a stoppage for a re-charge once in a while......
Another thought is that the metal spikes for the existing fence will taper to a point.... so, once your wall is built or as you go, packing the gap between the fence posts and the sleeper with stones/half bricks or something really solid to reduce any wobble would be a good call. Last thing you want is a nice solid sleeper wall and your neighbours fence flapping merrily on top of it.....
I was using cordless but even drilling pilot holes the 2 I used were struggling a fraction.... That's a bit of a how long is a piece of string based on battery power/quality of what you are using. But certainly not impossible for standard/reasonable quality cordless, possibly with a stoppage for a re-charge once in a while......
Another thought is that the metal spikes for the existing fence will taper to a point.... so, once your wall is built or as you go, packing the gap between the fence posts and the sleeper with stones/half bricks or something really solid to reduce any wobble would be a good call. Last thing you want is a nice solid sleeper wall and your neighbours fence flapping merrily on top of it.....
In reply to Ferret:
cool cheers. final Q: spacing for the fence posts I'll put in to brace it? say 2 per 2.4 meter sleeper?
cool cheers. final Q: spacing for the fence posts I'll put in to brace it? say 2 per 2.4 meter sleeper?
In reply to d508934:
That's what I have always gone with... Rows 1, 3 and 5 supported twice per sleeper. Rows 2 and 4 less but they are screwed down into layer below in any case so no issues that I can see.
That's what I have always gone with... Rows 1, 3 and 5 supported twice per sleeper. Rows 2 and 4 less but they are screwed down into layer below in any case so no issues that I can see.
In reply to Ferret:
grand. thinking it through, does the gravel base needed compacting down - by something other than my foot? assume that putting sleeper on gravel base, then using heavy hammer to level off will be sufficient.
as you say main concern is stopping neighbour's fence above from flapping about.
grand. thinking it through, does the gravel base needed compacting down - by something other than my foot? assume that putting sleeper on gravel base, then using heavy hammer to level off will be sufficient.
as you say main concern is stopping neighbour's fence above from flapping about.
In reply to d508934:
I think you'll be fine... assuming a nice trench, with gravel at bottom, by time 3 or more sleepers are piled on it, and you then backfill neighbours side with gravel and soil on top, and soil on your side and tamp it all down I don't think there will be any settling......
I think you'll be fine... assuming a nice trench, with gravel at bottom, by time 3 or more sleepers are piled on it, and you then backfill neighbours side with gravel and soil on top, and soil on your side and tamp it all down I don't think there will be any settling......
In reply to d508934:
Two areas of concern to be aware of.
1, If the sleepers are reclaimed old ones, they may be treated with Creosote. In the summer it will leach out of the wood. It stinks, it's very sticky and stains clothes.
2, They'll rot. May take ages, but being in contact with soil/grass, the ground, the air, rot will set in. A lad at work did something similar, but put them in end ways. He's now got to change a few of them because they've rotted. We have access to old Power poles through work, I made a raised bed at home with them in 2000. I laid them on their side, one on top of the other, back filled with soil, plants in them. A couple of the top ones are just the outers now. All the un-treated inner wood has rotted away.
Just something to think on.
Two areas of concern to be aware of.
1, If the sleepers are reclaimed old ones, they may be treated with Creosote. In the summer it will leach out of the wood. It stinks, it's very sticky and stains clothes.
2, They'll rot. May take ages, but being in contact with soil/grass, the ground, the air, rot will set in. A lad at work did something similar, but put them in end ways. He's now got to change a few of them because they've rotted. We have access to old Power poles through work, I made a raised bed at home with them in 2000. I laid them on their side, one on top of the other, back filled with soil, plants in them. A couple of the top ones are just the outers now. All the un-treated inner wood has rotted away.
Just something to think on.
In reply to Ferret:
have you used untreated sleepers before? seems that I'll want some kind of treatment, especially if burying one layer completely. not much price difference so figure get the treated ones! sounds like a good tip to avoid the reclaimed ones due to tar and oil.
have you used untreated sleepers before? seems that I'll want some kind of treatment, especially if burying one layer completely. not much price difference so figure get the treated ones! sounds like a good tip to avoid the reclaimed ones due to tar and oil.
In reply to d508934:
I'd always go for the older sleepers, they'll last longer. Better made than the stuff we get nowadays. You've just got to be aware of the Creosote. Some of our Electricity poles have been in the ground for 50 odd years, still fine. Some of the new ones we use are pretty poor TBH.
Our older poles were pressure treated with Creosote. (The new ones aren't treated with Creosote) They were put in a vacuum tank with Creosote and the air sucked out. The Creosote went in about half way on a pole 12-14-16 inch's thick. As long as they are not cut, they were/are fine. Cut them, and the moisture gets in and rots them.
I'd always go for the older sleepers, they'll last longer. Better made than the stuff we get nowadays. You've just got to be aware of the Creosote. Some of our Electricity poles have been in the ground for 50 odd years, still fine. Some of the new ones we use are pretty poor TBH.
Our older poles were pressure treated with Creosote. (The new ones aren't treated with Creosote) They were put in a vacuum tank with Creosote and the air sucked out. The Creosote went in about half way on a pole 12-14-16 inch's thick. As long as they are not cut, they were/are fine. Cut them, and the moisture gets in and rots them.
Post edited at 17:23
In reply to d508934:
With having to think about wood rotting away, I'd almost be tempted to learn how to build a small and attractive stone wall with slabs of stone on top to sit on/put pots on.
If you build it yourself you won't be put off by the thought of doing running repairs to it, since nothing lasts forever, but a wall can last for a decent amount of time before needing any work doing.
Just another idea really...
With having to think about wood rotting away, I'd almost be tempted to learn how to build a small and attractive stone wall with slabs of stone on top to sit on/put pots on.
If you build it yourself you won't be put off by the thought of doing running repairs to it, since nothing lasts forever, but a wall can last for a decent amount of time before needing any work doing.
Just another idea really...
Post edited at 21:26
In reply to d508934:
I'd plan for drainage too. Where your garden is at a lower level may end up a bog. Consider running some perforated pipe behind the sleepers wall to carry water off or some other type of french drain.
I'd plan for drainage too. Where your garden is at a lower level may end up a bog. Consider running some perforated pipe behind the sleepers wall to carry water off or some other type of french drain.
Hmm, I'm now having second thoughts about my earlier advice.
Just to to be on the safe side, I think you should think about adding some flying buttresses and maybe a few dozen skyhooks too. Oh, and a 600x200 reinforced concrete foundation. Maybe some contiguous piles along the line of soil you want retained too, with dowelled connections into the ring beam which you really should have - ya know - just in case there's a bit of dampness gets in there and undermines the whole malarkey.
Seriously, the clue here's in the first 11 words of the OP. It's a foot of soil we're talking about, not the Hoover Dam.
Nut - sledgehammer - crack - a - to.
Rearrange at will.
To the OP - best of luck.
Just to to be on the safe side, I think you should think about adding some flying buttresses and maybe a few dozen skyhooks too. Oh, and a 600x200 reinforced concrete foundation. Maybe some contiguous piles along the line of soil you want retained too, with dowelled connections into the ring beam which you really should have - ya know - just in case there's a bit of dampness gets in there and undermines the whole malarkey.
Seriously, the clue here's in the first 11 words of the OP. It's a foot of soil we're talking about, not the Hoover Dam.
Nut - sledgehammer - crack - a - to.
Rearrange at will.
To the OP - best of luck.
In reply to d508934:
Untreated.... To be honest, no. I've always gone with modern treated ones. I haven't had mine up for long enough to be able to advise on how long they really last but I suspect more years than I'm going to worry about.
Way I see it - genuine old sleepers - extremely heavy, harder to get a hold of (in general), I suspect due to environmental issues and the sheer weight of the things, nobody does domestic deliveries of that sort of thing except at huge cost I think. And they do leak tars etc and have lots of imperfections - although the imperfections can be considered to give character. They may well last 'forever' but you are buying them at the end of that 'forever' so may not actually have much life left in them. They are so trendy, I've seen some in pretty bad nick being sold at reclaim yards etc as though they are good and solid, which they definitely were not.
New untreated - hadn't even seen these when I was looking - wouldn't use them as the small extra price for treated seems worthwhile.
New Treated - way to go.. I'm sure I've seen suggestions of upwards of 20 years being likely timespan.... even being pessimistic you'll get a very long time out of them. Not as long as a wall but they go in a lot quicker and easier than any brickwork or stonework, probably cheaper and definitely a lot easier as a DIY job. I know my limits and know I am not a good stone worker and don't really have time and patience to become one at present, so speed and ease of wood vs probable shorter time span vs proper stone built wall suits me.
Untreated.... To be honest, no. I've always gone with modern treated ones. I haven't had mine up for long enough to be able to advise on how long they really last but I suspect more years than I'm going to worry about.
Way I see it - genuine old sleepers - extremely heavy, harder to get a hold of (in general), I suspect due to environmental issues and the sheer weight of the things, nobody does domestic deliveries of that sort of thing except at huge cost I think. And they do leak tars etc and have lots of imperfections - although the imperfections can be considered to give character. They may well last 'forever' but you are buying them at the end of that 'forever' so may not actually have much life left in them. They are so trendy, I've seen some in pretty bad nick being sold at reclaim yards etc as though they are good and solid, which they definitely were not.
New untreated - hadn't even seen these when I was looking - wouldn't use them as the small extra price for treated seems worthwhile.
New Treated - way to go.. I'm sure I've seen suggestions of upwards of 20 years being likely timespan.... even being pessimistic you'll get a very long time out of them. Not as long as a wall but they go in a lot quicker and easier than any brickwork or stonework, probably cheaper and definitely a lot easier as a DIY job. I know my limits and know I am not a good stone worker and don't really have time and patience to become one at present, so speed and ease of wood vs probable shorter time span vs proper stone built wall suits me.
Post edited at 07:34
In reply to Fraser:
Quite. I've used offcuts from railway sleepers as risers for stone steps up an earth bank and I just whacked in a couple of iron spikes a couple of feet long to retain them. I'd have thought the same would work for something minor like this.
(We used most of the sleepers vertically to build a retaining wall about 4 feet high for a huge raised bed - it looks like the Alamo! They were set in concrete)
I wouldn't worry too much about the lifetime of the sleepers if they are in decent condition to start with. Ours are completely saturated with creosote and will comfortably outlast us!
> Seriously, the clue here's in the first 11 words of the OP. It's a foot of soil we're talking about, not the Hoover Dam.
Quite. I've used offcuts from railway sleepers as risers for stone steps up an earth bank and I just whacked in a couple of iron spikes a couple of feet long to retain them. I'd have thought the same would work for something minor like this.
(We used most of the sleepers vertically to build a retaining wall about 4 feet high for a huge raised bed - it looks like the Alamo! They were set in concrete)
I wouldn't worry too much about the lifetime of the sleepers if they are in decent condition to start with. Ours are completely saturated with creosote and will comfortably outlast us!
In reply to d508934:
If you cut any, stand the end of the fresh cut in a bucket of preservative for a few days, takes a while if you have several rotating them around, but it will add a few years. That or lie them on a damp proof / course membrane, or back the whole pile of sleepers with a membrane before you back fill.
Or French drain it with gravel behind it, then put soil in after. Anything that provides a barrier between the wood and encourages moisture down away will add years to any wood.
I know several people who mix old engine oil with either water or thinner, then paint it on raw wood. It soaks in well and the oil prevents rot and woodworm etc.
If you cut any, stand the end of the fresh cut in a bucket of preservative for a few days, takes a while if you have several rotating them around, but it will add a few years. That or lie them on a damp proof / course membrane, or back the whole pile of sleepers with a membrane before you back fill.
Or French drain it with gravel behind it, then put soil in after. Anything that provides a barrier between the wood and encourages moisture down away will add years to any wood.
I know several people who mix old engine oil with either water or thinner, then paint it on raw wood. It soaks in well and the oil prevents rot and woodworm etc.
In reply to Ferret:
I've recently bought pressure treated fence posts with a guarantee of a minimum of 20 years...
> New Treated - way to go.. I'm sure I've seen suggestions of upwards of 20 years being likely timespan....
I've recently bought pressure treated fence posts with a guarantee of a minimum of 20 years...
In reply to Ferret:
thanks one and all. likely life span is of course a consideration, wouldn't expect them to last as long as a brick wall, but if I get 10-15 years I'd be happy. treated with something, including ends if cut, (thanks for that tip!) is clearly way to go. Lots of treatment options from uksleepers.com so will contact them.
just need to decide on how to lay them, thin edge or thick. thick edge would look great i think but needs 3 times as many sleepers. ho hum, a nice project to work on!
thanks one and all. likely life span is of course a consideration, wouldn't expect them to last as long as a brick wall, but if I get 10-15 years I'd be happy. treated with something, including ends if cut, (thanks for that tip!) is clearly way to go. Lots of treatment options from uksleepers.com so will contact them.
just need to decide on how to lay them, thin edge or thick. thick edge would look great i think but needs 3 times as many sleepers. ho hum, a nice project to work on!
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