UKC

Just buying our first home and looking at any modernisation which needs doing. Our surveyor recommended that we replaced the consumer unit as it's fairly old

https://flic.kr/p/tnucJG

It certainly looks old. As you can see a newer RCD has been added next to it. I consulted various electricians, one of whom mentioned that new regs as of Jan 2016 mean only metal CUs will be fitted and he recommended going straight to metal as they are safer (better at containing fires). I did some research on this and it seems that there is an opinion that CUs have actually got less safe over the years as corners have been cut in production. So that leaves me in a quandary: replace or not replace? and metal or plastic?

In reply to Oujmik:

Has it caused any issues? If not, I'd leave it alone unless you're having a rewire or need more circuits than it can provide.

Mine's even older - an ancient wood and bakelite Wylex one, but with the wire fuses replaced with drop-in replacement breakers. It is in good condition so I see no reason to replace it until I eventually get a rewire (probably on the 5-10 year horizon I would expect as the whole installation is a bit old in places).

Neil

In reply to Oujmik:

I wouldn't. Plenty worse than that knocking about. The RCD is protecting the house wiring. You're not going to gain much.

In reply to Oujmik:

Unless it's faulty I don't see you'd gain much assuming the RCD beside it protects most of the circuits, not just a single outside socket or something weird like that.

jk (not an electrician)

In reply to jkarran:

The RCD has 'socket' or possibly 'sockets' written under it (I assume it refers to the 'sockets' circuit). I don't have the keys yet, so I can't tell you if there are more RCDs next to it. Would you normally expect all the circuits (5 in this case) to have their own RCD, or just certain types?

In reply to Oujmik:

It's common to have two RCDs built into the box, each protecting their own set of circuits (each circuit also having an MCB protecting against overload) so that if one set of circuits develops a fault the other stays working. It's a while since I read the regs but I think things like smoke alarms are typically left off the RCD protected circuits so they're not disabled by a fault elsewhere (wires then need more protection or careful routing). An RCBO (combined residual current and overload protection) per circuit is a pretty expensive way of doing things, I think they're mostly used for add on afterthought circuits.

jk

In reply to Oujmik:
I don't have any RCDs as my installation is quite old (at a guess last rewired somewhere in the late 1980s or early 1990s). Provided you use a PowerBreaker or similar when cutting the grass[1], I wouldn't see that as something absolutely necessary to resolve (I won't bother until I have a full rewire), and I wouldn't sweat at all over not having one on the lighting circuit.

[1] I haven't ever put the lawnmower through the cable, but I did lop the hedge trimmer cable once, the PowerBreaker RCD didn't trip because it was a clean cut with no earth leakage, and the trimmer was double insulated so unearthed anyway. So in some ways modern double insulated kit is less safe

In reply to Neil Williams:

RCD is useful when you spill your coffee into the double insulated battery charger or knock a nail into the wire while hanging a picture. Mine doesn't have any either, if it did the live nails knocked through the rat's nest wires under my floor would definitely have been dealt with by the previous owner!

jk

In reply to jkarran:

True, the best thing is to be careful and use a wire detector while doing DIY

I suppose an RCD might (only might) catch rodents eating cables, talking of rats

In reply to jkarran:

Indeed, our wired Smoke alarms are switched on their own behind the main box, in an 'always on' manner, even if the main switch trips.

In reply to jkarran:

A Clock in our case.

My wife decided to put a 4" nail in the wall (to support a plastic clock above the door .)

However, when rewiring I had routed all the upstairs wiring above that door, and even though I had protected it (metal plate) she whacked the nail hard enough for it to pierce the metal and several wires.

She was holding the nail at the time, so she was lucky the RCCD cut the power to the house.

In reply to Oujmik:

Get two or three sparkies to come in, inspect the house wiring, look inside sockets etc. and give you advice and quotes. It's unlikely that the wisdom of the UKC collective will ever advise spending money, whatever the circumstances.
FWIW, I've bought and sold a lot of houses over the years, and would have automatically called an electrician in to look at the entire installation irrespective of the state of the consumer unit, just because my family would be sleeping in the house. You'll also regret looking at it if you need a rewire after you finish decorating the place. In the best case, it'll be about £150 to have the consumer unit changed.

In reply to Oujmik:

It has an NIC sticker on it. You should have a booklet or certificate to say it's all been tested recently.

Why did the surveyor recommend it be changed?

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Haha, yes UKC does seem to be cautious with it's collective cash...

I've been quoted a lot more than £150 (two at around £300, the other at £400-500 depending on CU type), possibly because the regs now require extra checks (earth bonding I think) which make the process take longer. None of those quoting have seen it first hand yet as we haven't got the keys.

In reply to DancingOnRock:

Because it was old it seems, these are his words

"All visible wiring is in insulated cabling, but the consumer unit is original and dated and requires upgrading. The entire system should be checked by an NICEIC approved contractor and upgraded to current IEE Regulations.
Improvements to earth bonding to copper pipework may also be recommended."

I can always go back to him for clarification, or get another opinion. One electrician offered an EICR for £200, not sure if this is a useful thing or just another cost.

In reply to Oujmik:

Installation is the easy bit. Testing and fault finding afterwards could take a very long time.

In reply to Oujmik:



Sounds like an almighty load of backside-covering there. An old installation is fine so long as it is working properly. There is absolutely no need (legal or otherwise) to upgrade a pre-edition 17 system to edition 17. If people did that they'd be forever doing electrical work.

I did just add primary bonding in my house - that probably is worth doing if it is absent. It was present in places but I couldn't see where it went! That will be in the form of an earth wire connecting the CU to the gas pipe (house side of the meter) and water inlet pipe. And if you do tend to put nails in walls without running a wire detector over them first or drop electrical equipment in water an RCD would probably benefit you, but that has been added anyway.

In reply to Oujmik:
I just can't see why I would replace a CU for replacing a CU's sake if the old one is not unsafe.

I might consider a rewire (which would include CU) if the installation is looking dubious, OTOH. If you think it does an inspection may be a good idea. And as others said if you're rewiring you might as well do it all before decorating.

In reply to DancingOnRock:


The sticker looks old, and I've never met anyone who bothered having a PIR done on domestic wiring purely on a time period basis. People call electricians when there is a problem.

Is that right? Possibly not, but it is normal practice.

In reply to Neil Williams:


Well, there's nothing which is unsafe to my untrained eye (not that I can see much of it). It just looks old, but I know that newer isn't always better. Maybe I will end up doing the inspection after all. I suspect that they would just tell me that it doesn't meet the current regs, which is almost inevitable since they keep updating.

In reply to Oujmik:
I've just had a better look at the picture. I was on my phone before. There are two stickers on the CU. The Orange/Yellow one says there are two versions of wiring colours so care should be taken. The Grey one says the installation, or part of it are protected by device(RCD) that switches of the power in the event of a fault, or words to that effect.

The O/Y one suggests someone has added extra circuits since 2008, thus using different coloured wires. If that is true he/her "should" have brought the existing installation up to the current regs. Especially the earthing.
The Grey one regards the RCD. With the RCD having "Sockets" written on it, it looks like it only protects the sockets.

The only thing I'd change, would be to have an RCD to protect the Whole installation.

However, having said all that, as I'm a sparky I'd put a new CU in myself.



Edit; One other thing. The Cooker circuit has a 50amp trip backing it up. That's a bit big. 30amp would be the norm.

In reply to Oujmik:
http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Product/partNumber/9823154.htm
For use with lawnmowers and power tools etc if sockets don't have RCD.

For me it would come on the list of jobs that need doing at some point rather than jobs that must be done before moving in.

I've just had mine done (in plastic as it happens) but it was fuses before and not breakers.

I think someone already said above, get an electrician to have a look. They need to see the property not just photos.

The main thing I would be looking for as a buyer is any evidence of diy or dodgy additional wiring and get that removed asap.

When I got my flat I found that the shower was wired into the cooker circuit. So was the burglar alarm.

Stuff like that is more dangerous than a CU that isn't so recent.

The RCD may only protect some sockets not all.

In reply to Oujmik:

Thanks all, I'm getting some electricians round to give their opinion, but I am not armed with much more useful info.

Regarding the labels, yes the recent modification was rewiring in the kitchen to add more sockets which I believe was when the RCD was added. I suppose they did it this way to reduce cost rather than getting a new CU with RCDs included. Would they have tested things like earth bonding at that stage? If so I might be in a better situation than I thought. I guessed from the old CU and new RCD that they'd done the minimum possible to be legal, but I wasn't sure what that minimum was.

In reply to Oujmik:

In that case its probably only the kitchen sockets are protected.
Presumably they checked the earth but unless you know then you don't know.

In reply to marsbar:




Why would you fit a plastic CU? If you were changing it anyway, what's the point in that? the amendments have been made for a reason.

To the OP.
You can check yourself which sockets are RCD by plugging a table lamp in each socket with the RCD off the one's that light up aren't protected.

Supplementary earth bonding, you can do yourself, connecting all the pipes together at the boiler, under the bath and sinks. http://www.gleesongas.co.uk/#/shop/4559889313/equipotential-earth-bonding-t...

Main protective bonding is the same, but depending on where you live (the ground type; soil, rock sand etc) it's a professional job to verify the main protective earth, usually the protection on the incoming cable.

If you've a mortgage on the property and there's been a recommendation of an electrical survey, you might have to have on for that.

Good luck.

In reply to krikoman:

I bought it a few months ago, probably before they had that idea, and the amendment isn't in yet.

Its fine, I won't be losing sleep over it.

In reply to Oujmik:


Oops, accidental ingratitude. I meant to say 'now armed'. Completion is a coupe of weeks off, I'll post back with updates after the professionals have been in.

In reply to Oujmik:
In my experience surveyors love to find as many wrong things as they can just to try and justify their existence. Always better to ask a trusted tradesman for their opinion.

In reply to arch:

Absolutely no requirement whatsoever to do that, *except* the earth bonding, which must be brought up to spec if certain work is carried out (but that isn't difficult, I completely redid mine in half a day and my house has an awkward layout where the water inlet is in the kitchen and the CU in the front porch, so it involved a load of drilling and conduit). Again, if that were the case people would be forever rewiring.

And they might not have added new circuits, they may simply have added branches or replaced damaged cable.

In reply to marsbar:
It's one of those things that might as well be right in new installations, but there are not many house fires, and most of the ones that there are aren't caused by the CU going up.

It's like I might be safer driving a Volvo estate, but I'll still travel in a Ford Fiesta if necessary. It ends up in my definition of "safe enough". UK wiring regulations are very well developed (even the older editions) and UK standards of electrical safety are some of the best in the world.

I agree that sorting out any DIY bodges is more important than swapping an old but in good condition CU. Or if it's *that* bad get a full rewire, but most likely it won't be.

In reply to krikoman:

Doubtful. Unless your house is well away from the norm, all the mortgage company will care about is (a) are you paying the going rate, and (b) are you insured.

Pretty much every homebuyer's survey or above will suggest a PIR on the electrics because surveyors are not competent to do it. It isn't a bad idea, of course, but the wording of the survey quoted above was in my view unnecessarily alarming.

(I remember being unnecessarily alarmed about just about every aspect of housebuying, but now I've lived here 3 and a bit years I've generally found most of it not to be *that* much of a concern. Subsidence and woodworm would concern me a lot, but aside from that most other things can be fixed without too much difficulty.)

Neil

In reply to Oujmik:

I forgot about the RCD when I tried to earth Mrs Num Num's mother by connecting the live to her bath tap.
It just tickled her up a bit until the breaker tripped instead of giving her the proper prolonged jolt that I'd planned for her. Sometimes they're just a nuisance.

In reply to Oujmik:

You'll probably find that the RCD protected unit to the side of the main unit was added just to allow installation of a new socket/circuit in a specific environment like a kitchen or bathroom where RCD protection is mandatory on all new work.

Although it would be nice to have everything protected on RCDs I'd be happy enough to keep using the box that's there and anyhow, changing consumer unit isn't massively expensive in my experience so it definitely wouldn't put me off buying a place

In reply to Neil Williams:


It's scattered about like confetti on mine, more window dressing than earth bonding. I guess it was fitted by someone who knew what it should look like but not what it does! Every now and again I find a loose end going god knows where.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

Sounds familiar! That's why I disconnected what was there (which was barely adequate) and did it from scratch.

In reply to Neil Williams:

The whole lot is coming out soon so for now I just fix what I find.
jk

In reply to Neil Williams:

Apparently London fire brigade have pushed for it. As I am unlikely to set my CU on fire by fiddling my lecky I will probably survive.

In reply to marsbar:
I agree it's a good idea if it provides even a small improvement at negligible cost (which given that an electrical system lasts 30+ years it is), so I am in support of it. However I wouldn't panic to bring a safe system to a previous set of regulations up to the latest regulations, as home electrical safety in the UK has been very good for years - it's just it keeps getting better.

No reason to install a non-compliant new system or component, but equally no reason to faff about upgrading everything every time the regs change.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Exactly.

In reply to marsbar:


They pushed for it because there have been a number of fires emanating from the CU in recent years, loose connections (mainly) and overloaded circuits also, and believe it or not the plastic housings didn't even have to be self extinguishing. Connections can become loose over time due to heating and cooling.

The idea of metal clad ones is that fire is contained within the box until it burns out.

In reply to krikoman:

Fair enough. But as I bought a new shiny plastic one a few months ago before all this happened I'm not going to go buy a new one.

Given that my plastic one replaced a partly wooden one (I'm not kidding) I think its probably an improvement.
http://www.eponthenet.net/article/48882/Fired-up-over-consumer-units.aspx

This suggests that location of the cu is an issue. In the cupboard under the stairs surrounded by coats isn't a great idea.

Anyway I will consider covering it with a metal cupboard, an alternative option in the regs.

In reply to marsbar:
That article does raise some questions. Why are the regs for cu manufacturing so lax? The unit with the fire retardant proves that plastic units can be safe so why isn't this mandatory? All sounds a bit shoddy.
Perhaps I'll try burning on of the fragments that was broken out of my cu to put wires through.

Also, just thinking back to when the ex lived in a slightly dodgy part of Nottingham, the mailbox had a heat activated extinguisher device (some sort of plastic tube full of liquid), perhaps these should be adapted/fitted to consumer units.

In reply to Oujmik:
Christ guys, how many CU fires do you think there are per year ??

Why not go and have a look at what your Electricity meter and main fuse are fixed to. I'll hazard a guess it's chipboard. But here's the rub, it'll be flame retardant chipboard . Same as the Wooden/Plastic CUs that most of us have in our homes. Same as all the plastic switches and sockets in your house too. They may get hot and smoulder and burn out, but they shouldn't catch fire.

As regards the actual material a CU is made of. Plastic for domestic situations. Metalclad for more industrial uses.

In reply to arch:

Apparently around 200 a year in London. How many of these are due to people fiddling the meter is not recorded.

The majority of the rest probably down to well dodgy installs.

How long until a dodgy install results in electrocution from a metal CU and the regs change again?

You can't legislate for idiots.

In reply to arch:
"it'll be flame retardant chipboard . Same as the Wooden/Plastic CUs that most of us have in our homes. Same as all the plastic switches and sockets in your house too. They may get hot and smoulder and burn out, but they shouldn't catch fire."

Or so you'd think/hope. Marsbars link above seems to suggest that not all units are actually made of fire retardant plastics and that the performance of different units varies greatly.

In reply to gethin_allen:

But that wouldn't suggest they should ban plastic CUs, rather that they should ban *crap* plastic CUs.

A badly wired, unearthed metal one will give someone a belt and may kill them. On that basis I was a little surprised.

Mine's an old Bakelite one - try setting fire to that! (Though having read the thing about loose connections, I might take the lid off and ensure they are all tight).

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


Exactly, see my comment above in reply to marsbar, they should sort out the standards for CUs to weed out the rubbish ones.

In reply to gethin_allen:

If you consider that just about every home electrical appliance has a plastic case, either in part or in full, it seems all the more ridiculous a concept. I don't see why a faulty/badly installed consumer unit would be any more likely to go up in flames than a faulty television or whatever. But that anyone thinks it's sensible to make ones out of non-flame-retardent plastic is equally mad.

In reply to Oujmik:

If it was me I would find a reputable electrician, check they are a member of a national body like NICEIC or equivalent, and have your house tested. Reading that article, a number of fires are caused simply by poor installation- loose connections.

In reply to Jasonic:

Sent the article to a friend who acted in an insurance case where a house had burnt down. Fault was sourced to a loose connection in consumer unit , which had not been installed by a qualified electrician.. pays your money, makes your choices!

In reply to Neil Williams:



Well if you don't see why, then I suppose that makes it all right then. This is exactly why the amendments are brought in, because people who know are aware of the risks, and it then isn't left to people who don't see the point. FFS!!

Some might say I don't see why driving home pissed is a problem, "I always drive more carefully when I've had a few"

The reason it's more likely to cause fire in the CU than on your telly is there are more connections, there are no other fuses protecting the cabling ( it's the end of the line so to speak), you'd have one in your plug on the telly. I does seem to be a massive oversight that these boxes weren't required to be self extinguishing, but that again is what the new regulations have covered, just because it wasn't covered before isn't an excuse to leave it as it is!

And if you talking about getting a belt from your metal box, then surely the RCD will take care of that, there's another regulation that has saved lives.