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So who would like to admit that they fell onto the first peg on Grasp the Nettle (E2 5b) at Limekilns, it's snapped! Wasn't like this a couple of weeks ago.
Would people object if a new peg was inserted in the same location?
Problem is, would need to get the stump out first.
Would people object if a new peg was inserted in the same location?
Problem is, would need to get the stump out first.
In reply to Heike:
My money is on lord Elgin.
On a more serious note, that would be decking territory surely unless one of the wee wires held?
My money is on lord Elgin.
On a more serious note, that would be decking territory surely unless one of the wee wires held?
Post edited at 20:41
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In reply to Heike:
Seems fair enough.
BTW despite what Big Bob says this route is NOT E3. Harder HVSs at Stoney Middleton.
Seems fair enough.
BTW despite what Big Bob says this route is NOT E3. Harder HVSs at Stoney Middleton.
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In reply to Ian Jones:
On the contrary, the fact that the peg snapped, meaning the awkward moves left from the peg (though I can see that they are easier for dwarfs) as well as the moves to the peg gave potential ground falls, PROVES that the E3 grade in the guidebook was justified.
> (In reply to Heike)
> BTW despite what Big Bob says this route is NOT E3.
On the contrary, the fact that the peg snapped, meaning the awkward moves left from the peg (though I can see that they are easier for dwarfs) as well as the moves to the peg gave potential ground falls, PROVES that the E3 grade in the guidebook was justified.
Post edited at 23:03
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In reply to Heike:
>> Would people object if a new peg was inserted in the same location?
Almost certainly.
>> Would people object if a new peg was inserted in the same location?
Almost certainly.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Wrong again Dick Wittington. The route is a path. If it were perfectly protected it would be graded HVS. A slightly bold 5a section will never justify E3. Do you really think this is comparable to Epitaph for instance?
Wrong again Dick Wittington. The route is a path. If it were perfectly protected it would be graded HVS. A slightly bold 5a section will never justify E3. Do you really think this is comparable to Epitaph for instance?
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Okay I guess Steve Mcclure and co. should scientifically test its grade as well.
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In reply to Ian Jones:
So what? It's very pooly protected.
With 5b that you really wouldn't want to fall off (as I told you, at least two people we know have done so and cracked vertebrae), then effectively a long 5a run out with one unconvincing wire on the left to the second peg (which presumably also cannot be trusted) makes it comparable to other E3 5b's I've done. (such as at Creag Dubh).
Putting it back down to E2 would be as daft as it was putting Left Wall back down to E2
> If it were perfectly protected it would be graded HVS.
So what? It's very pooly protected.
> A slightly bold 5a section will never justify E3.
With 5b that you really wouldn't want to fall off (as I told you, at least two people we know have done so and cracked vertebrae), then effectively a long 5a run out with one unconvincing wire on the left to the second peg (which presumably also cannot be trusted) makes it comparable to other E3 5b's I've done. (such as at Creag Dubh).
Putting it back down to E2 would be as daft as it was putting Left Wall back down to E2
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
And has been ever since the peg(s) decayed to uselessness.
To be fair, I don't think Ian is arguing that the crux is only 5a.
> If it wasn't E3 it certainly is now!
And has been ever since the peg(s) decayed to uselessness.
> Definitely harder than 5a.
To be fair, I don't think Ian is arguing that the crux is only 5a.
In reply to Ian Jones:
If Archangel were perfectly protected it would be HVS 5b too, lucky Robert is on hand to explain the adjectival-technical grade relationship .
It might be soft E3 5b but the grading logical makes sense - stiff, continual and committing moves above a hard landing to get the peg. If you want to do any grade correcting there put Elgin's down to E1 as it should be.
P.S. Replace the peg, yes, it's a good route and worth having in it's normal state.
If Archangel were perfectly protected it would be HVS 5b too, lucky Robert is on hand to explain the adjectival-technical grade relationship .
It might be soft E3 5b but the grading logical makes sense - stiff, continual and committing moves above a hard landing to get the peg. If you want to do any grade correcting there put Elgin's down to E1 as it should be.
P.S. Replace the peg, yes, it's a good route and worth having in it's normal state.
Post edited at 13:07
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In reply to Fiend:
I apologise, you did reply to one of my questions. Now, how does one get peg stumps out. Using a metal drill on it perhaps? The stump that is
I apologise, you did reply to one of my questions. Now, how does one get peg stumps out. Using a metal drill on it perhaps? The stump that is
Post edited at 16:44
In reply to Heike:
Chip away the surrounding rock to get purchase on the peg. The ram an SDS bit alongside it and vibrate the f**ker out. Replace the peg and use quick-dry cement to make good any damage to the rock. Spray paint over the cements with a protective bright yellow colour, also highlighting the peg.
> I apologise, you did reply to one of my questions. Now, how does one get peg stumps out. Using a metal drill on it perhaps? The stump that is
Chip away the surrounding rock to get purchase on the peg. The ram an SDS bit alongside it and vibrate the f**ker out. Replace the peg and use quick-dry cement to make good any damage to the rock. Spray paint over the cements with a protective bright yellow colour, also highlighting the peg.
In reply to Philip:
Phew that's fine. I was worried someone was going to suggest replacing it with a bolt
Phew that's fine. I was worried someone was going to suggest replacing it with a bolt
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In reply to Heike:
This is quite surprising. I know the pegs are old but did not look snappy last time I was there.
Info I heard from Alan P was they were home made but very long and pretty heavy guage. Just shows you...
The fall from above that peg would be very ugly indeed ... no chance those wee wires would hold.
If you can notch the stump with a hacksaw then it might be possible to ply it out with a hammer claw. If you put a wee block under the head of hammer then it will protect the rock and give a bit of mechanical advantage.
Plenty limestone lying around to smash up and mix with resin to repair any damage.
Have a super long kingpin lying around if peg needed.
Bruce
...or you could just put a resin staple in.
This is quite surprising. I know the pegs are old but did not look snappy last time I was there.
Info I heard from Alan P was they were home made but very long and pretty heavy guage. Just shows you...
The fall from above that peg would be very ugly indeed ... no chance those wee wires would hold.
If you can notch the stump with a hacksaw then it might be possible to ply it out with a hammer claw. If you put a wee block under the head of hammer then it will protect the rock and give a bit of mechanical advantage.
Plenty limestone lying around to smash up and mix with resin to repair any damage.
Have a super long kingpin lying around if peg needed.
Bruce
...or you could just put a resin staple in.
In reply to Heike:
Not really. Staus Quo and all that. Although if it reveals a usable natural pro slot on removal then there might be an option to leave it.
> Would people object if a new peg was inserted in the same location?
Not really. Staus Quo and all that. Although if it reveals a usable natural pro slot on removal then there might be an option to leave it.
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In reply to Jimbo C:
I removing peg and driling a cam hole acceptable? A 14mm sds bit would create a decent placement for a smaller cam.
I removing peg and driling a cam hole acceptable? A 14mm sds bit would create a decent placement for a smaller cam.
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In reply to Heike:
Did the route last year and I thought the pegs looked like they had been replaced. Was it the first or second peg that was snapped? If its the first surely whoever fell hit the deck. If its the second then its also a possible ground fall I guess.
Did the route last year and I thought the pegs looked like they had been replaced. Was it the first or second peg that was snapped? If its the first surely whoever fell hit the deck. If its the second then its also a possible ground fall I guess.
In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:
I do the route every year at least once or twice if not more times. Two weeks ago the first peg was still there, yesterday it was snapped. Second peg is still there. The pegs haven't looked like they have been replaced in donkeys IMHO, I have climbed there every year many times, never noticed a difference...( I have probably climbed there every year for well more than a decade, maybe 15 years or more, don't know precisely)
I do the route every year at least once or twice if not more times. Two weeks ago the first peg was still there, yesterday it was snapped. Second peg is still there. The pegs haven't looked like they have been replaced in donkeys IMHO, I have climbed there every year many times, never noticed a difference...( I have probably climbed there every year for well more than a decade, maybe 15 years or more, don't know precisely)
Post edited at 21:40
In reply to Fiend:
Ian is lucky to have me on hand to explain many superficially confusing things to him
> Lucky Robert is on hand to explain the adjectival-technical grade relationship .
Ian is lucky to have me on hand to explain many superficially confusing things to him
In reply to Hay:
I would really, really like to believe that neither of these suggestions is in any way serious..
Anyway, it isn't all that long ago that someone on here was hilariously suggesting that the whole crag be bolted because cams are not terribly reliable in the limestone.
Personally I'm not bothered whether the peg is replaced. Put a good peg in and it becomes a nice E2 5b with a don't fall off moment before clipping it, leave it out and its basically the same head testing E3 5b as before.
> Is removing peg and driling a cam hole acceptable?
> ...or you could just put a resin staple in.
I would really, really like to believe that neither of these suggestions is in any way serious..
Anyway, it isn't all that long ago that someone on here was hilariously suggesting that the whole crag be bolted because cams are not terribly reliable in the limestone.
Personally I'm not bothered whether the peg is replaced. Put a good peg in and it becomes a nice E2 5b with a don't fall off moment before clipping it, leave it out and its basically the same head testing E3 5b as before.
Post edited at 23:41
In reply to Fiend:
Garbage. The 5b moves are protected by 4 wires. The moves by the peg are juggy 5a moves and the traverse after the peg is 4b.
Garbage. The 5b moves are protected by 4 wires. The moves by the peg are juggy 5a moves and the traverse after the peg is 4b.
In reply to Robert Durran:
As we all know you are a universal expert on all matters; women, music and grades. You poor, sad, deluded fool.
One last time. Bold 5a moves do not merit an E3 grade.
As we all know you are a universal expert on all matters; women, music and grades. You poor, sad, deluded fool.
One last time. Bold 5a moves do not merit an E3 grade.
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In reply to Ian Jones:
I thought the traverse was the most insecure and much the most serious (assuming the peg was sensibly and, it turns out correctly, not trusted) part of the route, certainly harder than the moves to the peg after the crux
The grade is for the whole route: not at all reassuring wires at crux, insecure feeling 5a with groudfall potential, spooky rock. Given the accidents, it just makes sense, if there is doubt (which there certatinly is) to give it low E3 rather than E2 (which was the rationale when it was upgraded).
> The moves by the peg are juggy 5a moves and the traverse after the peg is 4b.
I thought the traverse was the most insecure and much the most serious (assuming the peg was sensibly and, it turns out correctly, not trusted) part of the route, certainly harder than the moves to the peg after the crux
> One last time. Bold 5a moves do not merit an E3 grade.
The grade is for the whole route: not at all reassuring wires at crux, insecure feeling 5a with groudfall potential, spooky rock. Given the accidents, it just makes sense, if there is doubt (which there certatinly is) to give it low E3 rather than E2 (which was the rationale when it was upgraded).
Post edited at 01:04
In reply to Ian Jones:
Quality, one guy has an opinion on a grade and he is a sad deluded old fool. One of the reasons I gave up with UKC. There never ever seems to be a thread without some form of abuse.
Flashdance has bold 6a moves, that warrants E5, Right wall has bold 6a moves, thats also E5. If a route has 5b and 5a moves that are unprotected, especially now with the demise of the peg, then Robert Durran is fully correct in saying its easy E3.
For what its worth, I thought hangover on the Grochan is HVS, Tentative Decisions E4 and Rimsky E5. I must also be in the sad deluded bracket for having an opinion on grades.
Anyway, back to the op and original reason for this post, thanks for letting people know about the peg, in particular me as I would like to try the route. I think its probably best to leave whats left, unless you can remove it without damaging the rock.
Centurion05
> As we all know you are a universal expert on all matters; women, music and grades. You poor, sad, deluded fool.
> One last time. Bold 5a moves do not merit an E3 grade.
Quality, one guy has an opinion on a grade and he is a sad deluded old fool. One of the reasons I gave up with UKC. There never ever seems to be a thread without some form of abuse.
Flashdance has bold 6a moves, that warrants E5, Right wall has bold 6a moves, thats also E5. If a route has 5b and 5a moves that are unprotected, especially now with the demise of the peg, then Robert Durran is fully correct in saying its easy E3.
For what its worth, I thought hangover on the Grochan is HVS, Tentative Decisions E4 and Rimsky E5. I must also be in the sad deluded bracket for having an opinion on grades.
Anyway, back to the op and original reason for this post, thanks for letting people know about the peg, in particular me as I would like to try the route. I think its probably best to leave whats left, unless you can remove it without damaging the rock.
Centurion05
Post edited at 01:11
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In reply to Ian Jones:
Although I have just found out that Robert thinks that Gogarth isn't that good, so Ian, you're correct in thinking that Robert doesn't know what he is on about :-p
Although I have just found out that Robert thinks that Gogarth isn't that good, so Ian, you're correct in thinking that Robert doesn't know what he is on about :-p
In reply to centurion05:
Gogarth is very good. It just isn't quite as good as the likes of sad deluded old fools such as Ian think it is ( ie it isn't the best crag in the world).
> Although I have just found out that Robert thinks that Gogarth isn't that good, so Ian, you're correct in thinking that Robert doesn't know what he is on about :-p
Gogarth is very good. It just isn't quite as good as the likes of sad deluded old fools such as Ian think it is ( ie it isn't the best crag in the world).
In reply to Heike:
Hi Heike,
I climb there quite a bit. With the first peg, Grasp the Nettle was very soft at E3, and probably mid-E2.
While I haven't got massively strong views on this, on balance I think it would be better without the peg being replaced. The fact that it's snapped despite looking - in my opinion - not all that bad, just goes to show how little trust should be placed in in-situ pegs, and how they'll always offer a huge advantage to the person who first places them due to the speed with which they degrade.
I'm not that keen on pegs on wee trad outcrops like Limekilns. And if it comes down to a purely safety argument, on balance I think the presence of a replacement peg is more likely to tempt more people on to the route who might fall, snap the peg, and hit the ground. For me, no peg ups the purity of the line, the challenge (and subsequent enjoyment?) - and makes it less likely that people who might fall will go near the route.
Cheers,
Danny.
Hi Heike,
I climb there quite a bit. With the first peg, Grasp the Nettle was very soft at E3, and probably mid-E2.
While I haven't got massively strong views on this, on balance I think it would be better without the peg being replaced. The fact that it's snapped despite looking - in my opinion - not all that bad, just goes to show how little trust should be placed in in-situ pegs, and how they'll always offer a huge advantage to the person who first places them due to the speed with which they degrade.
I'm not that keen on pegs on wee trad outcrops like Limekilns. And if it comes down to a purely safety argument, on balance I think the presence of a replacement peg is more likely to tempt more people on to the route who might fall, snap the peg, and hit the ground. For me, no peg ups the purity of the line, the challenge (and subsequent enjoyment?) - and makes it less likely that people who might fall will go near the route.
Cheers,
Danny.
In reply to Heike:
Shame to hear the peg's snapped. Hope whoever fell off is alright...
If it can be removed without damaging the rock too much, then hopefully a useful trad gear option will become available. If not, it seems sensible to re-peg it. (May get shot down for this but...) It's just a crag for locals really, so i wouldn't imagine anyone will get too upset with some bodging to fix a non classic route back into usable condition?
My tupence for the grade, is that recently it must have been E3 due to a (clearly from this discussion, but perhaps not obviously from inspection) useless peg, however once it's been re-pegged/ cleared a pro slot, then E2 is more in order.
To paraphrase for Dalriada, it could range between a few E grades depending on how many pegs hold.
Shame to hear the peg's snapped. Hope whoever fell off is alright...
If it can be removed without damaging the rock too much, then hopefully a useful trad gear option will become available. If not, it seems sensible to re-peg it. (May get shot down for this but...) It's just a crag for locals really, so i wouldn't imagine anyone will get too upset with some bodging to fix a non classic route back into usable condition?
My tupence for the grade, is that recently it must have been E3 due to a (clearly from this discussion, but perhaps not obviously from inspection) useless peg, however once it's been re-pegged/ cleared a pro slot, then E2 is more in order.
To paraphrase for Dalriada, it could range between a few E grades depending on how many pegs hold.
In reply to CharlieMack:
this is precisely why I hate pegs so much. I'd rather not have them and know exactly what position i am in rather than having to guess. At least with marginal gear I can make an assessment, with pegs you just have to be lucky :/
this is precisely why I hate pegs so much. I'd rather not have them and know exactly what position i am in rather than having to guess. At least with marginal gear I can make an assessment, with pegs you just have to be lucky :/
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In reply to Heike:
Hi Heike,
Yep - hope someone's not too bruised... IIRC this lower peg stuck out a bit so may have snapped as the eye was a couple of inches out from the rock increasing leverage of a fall?
Personally support replacement if possible as it's the long-time 'character' of the route so to speak - whatever the grade. If the stump is messy to remove might be possible to get replacement nearby in the same seam?
As an aside, wonder if anyone's ever lobbed onto the rings on dead ringer... wouldn't like one of those to come out on top of someone!
Hi Heike,
Yep - hope someone's not too bruised... IIRC this lower peg stuck out a bit so may have snapped as the eye was a couple of inches out from the rock increasing leverage of a fall?
Personally support replacement if possible as it's the long-time 'character' of the route so to speak - whatever the grade. If the stump is messy to remove might be possible to get replacement nearby in the same seam?
As an aside, wonder if anyone's ever lobbed onto the rings on dead ringer... wouldn't like one of those to come out on top of someone!
In reply to Robert Durran:
Not really Robert, just stirring a bit. Perhaps we should drill a hole and glue in a peg??
Ref the grade; you, Neil MCGeek, Al Pettit and Greg Boswell all offered it as decent value at the given grade.
There are harder E2s at Limekilns but maybe not needing the same level of mental stamina as GtN.
To answer the question above re rings on Dead Ringer ... yes, me. I fell from the top crux-y move onto the first ring. I am not the lightest dancer in the troupe but it seemed to hold.
Bruce
Not really Robert, just stirring a bit. Perhaps we should drill a hole and glue in a peg??
Ref the grade; you, Neil MCGeek, Al Pettit and Greg Boswell all offered it as decent value at the given grade.
There are harder E2s at Limekilns but maybe not needing the same level of mental stamina as GtN.
To answer the question above re rings on Dead Ringer ... yes, me. I fell from the top crux-y move onto the first ring. I am not the lightest dancer in the troupe but it seemed to hold.
Bruce
Post edited at 13:47
In reply to Kemics:
It may well be the difference in attitude to the pegs which results in the different opinions of the grade. Those of us who treat ancient pegs as a joke and approach the route pretty much as if they were not there at all probably think E3, while those who think of them as worthwhile protection probably think E2. In this case the former have been proved sensible and correct.
> This is precisely why I hate pegs so much. I'd rather not have them and know exactly what position i am in rather than having to guess. At least with marginal gear I can make an assessment, with pegs you just have to be lucky :/
It may well be the difference in attitude to the pegs which results in the different opinions of the grade. Those of us who treat ancient pegs as a joke and approach the route pretty much as if they were not there at all probably think E3, while those who think of them as worthwhile protection probably think E2. In this case the former have been proved sensible and correct.
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In reply to Hay:
By "given grade" I take it you mean the E3 in the definitive guidebook.
Yes, technically way harder, but I'd happily lead the likes of Cruel Summer and Elgin's Crack over and over for fun, but I'm not sure I'd take the risk on Grasp the Nettle again; I just don't really trust those weird sticking out holds - to me it's just not worth it. I only did it for the first time this year because Ian bullied me into doing it and refused to belay me on anything else until I had done so. Having had two friends hit the ground and crush vertebrae on it, I'd always not bothered.
You clipped the rings? That doesn't get the E1 tick surely
> Ref the grade; you, Neil MCGeek, Al Pettit and Greg Boswell all offered it as decent value at the given grade.
By "given grade" I take it you mean the E3 in the definitive guidebook.
> There are harder E2s at Limekilns but maybe not needing the same level of mental stamina as GtN.
Yes, technically way harder, but I'd happily lead the likes of Cruel Summer and Elgin's Crack over and over for fun, but I'm not sure I'd take the risk on Grasp the Nettle again; I just don't really trust those weird sticking out holds - to me it's just not worth it. I only did it for the first time this year because Ian bullied me into doing it and refused to belay me on anything else until I had done so. Having had two friends hit the ground and crush vertebrae on it, I'd always not bothered.
> To answer the question above re rings on Dead Ringer ... yes, me. I fell from the top crux-y move onto the first ring.
You clipped the rings? That doesn't get the E1 tick surely
Having just scanned through the logbook comments, they seem to confirm what I said about differing attitudes to the pegs; plenty along the lines of being fine once the first one is clipped. I felt fine up to that point - from there until the good gear high up I assumed I was effectively soloing.
In reply to Heike:
Hi Heike
I'm not a big fan of pegs in general, but I'd have no particular objection to this peg being replaced.
(For interest I used to be in the camp that thought GtN was E1 rather than E3, but Robert Durran's analysis (and your info that the peg has snapped) has given me pause for thought - UKC may even perhaps have changed my opinion).
Hi Heike
I'm not a big fan of pegs in general, but I'd have no particular objection to this peg being replaced.
(For interest I used to be in the camp that thought GtN was E1 rather than E3, but Robert Durran's analysis (and your info that the peg has snapped) has given me pause for thought - UKC may even perhaps have changed my opinion).
In reply to Robert Durran:
Whoa whoa whoa. It was one ring ... I couldn't reach the other one
FWIW as a local climber I think the peg should be replaced with the longest peg known to man.
Who's doing it? I can go up one evening if noone else is keen....
Bruce
Whoa whoa whoa. It was one ring ... I couldn't reach the other one
FWIW as a local climber I think the peg should be replaced with the longest peg known to man.
Who's doing it? I can go up one evening if noone else is keen....
Bruce
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