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We have been climbing with this person for a while and he has been upsetting some of our group. What does anyone suggest on how to let someone down with out being to harsh, as they spoil the dynamics of our group. They are often quiet tackles about the ways we climb, how we use gear and they always seem to be quite selfish. If anyone has any ideas it would be a help!
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
So you're thinking a small fall nothing to big?
Sorry bad taste. And definitely DON'T do that!
> What does anyone suggest on how to let someone down with out being to harsh,
So you're thinking a small fall nothing to big?
Sorry bad taste. And definitely DON'T do that!
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In reply to ACollins:
But he has dropped some people! I wish that was a joke.
But he has dropped some people! I wish that was a joke.
> So you're thinking a small fall nothing to big?
> Sorry bad taste. And definitely DON'T do that!
In reply to JimHolmes69:
Hm. A tad thick-skinned as well then I shouldn't wonder. Probably no good dropping subtle hints I'm afraid, you're just going to have to be brutally honest. No fun.
> ... and they always seem to be quite selfish.
Hm. A tad thick-skinned as well then I shouldn't wonder. Probably no good dropping subtle hints I'm afraid, you're just going to have to be brutally honest. No fun.
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In reply to ACollins:
I like this idea nothing to life threatening just a gentl nudge
> So you're thinking a small fall nothing to big?
> Sorry bad taste. And definitely DON'T do that!
I like this idea nothing to life threatening just a gentl nudge
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Got a suggestion. Why don't you post something on a climbing forum about wanting to drop a partner, remembering to include ur name in the post and maybe a picture , and hope that he reads it!
That should sort it.
Got a suggestion. Why don't you post something on a climbing forum about wanting to drop a partner, remembering to include ur name in the post and maybe a picture , and hope that he reads it!
That should sort it.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
That's easy then. Say they're not welcome due to their lack of competence / unacceptable disregard for safety.
> But he has dropped some people! I wish that was a joke.
That's easy then. Say they're not welcome due to their lack of competence / unacceptable disregard for safety.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
But, the bloke thinks he's brilliant, he has no understanding that he does anything wrong. How do you get through to someone like that?
But, the bloke thinks he's brilliant, he has no understanding that he does anything wrong. How do you get through to someone like that?
In reply to JimHolmes69:
Simply tell him, and explain how and why, and if he doesn't understand, that can still be your reason and you don't have to climb with him any more.
> But, the bloke thinks he's brilliant, he has no understanding that he does anything wrong. How do you get through to someone like that?
Simply tell him, and explain how and why, and if he doesn't understand, that can still be your reason and you don't have to climb with him any more.
In reply to JimHolmes69:
If he's dropped people ie more than one just tell him to he's not safe enough. It'll be difficult to say but everyone will feel much better afterwards.
If he's dropped people ie more than one just tell him to he's not safe enough. It'll be difficult to say but everyone will feel much better afterwards.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Ask if you can have a quiet word with him - say that recently you've been having 'certain feelings' towards him. Ask if he feels ready to take a big step forward together? That should do it.
Ask if you can have a quiet word with him - say that recently you've been having 'certain feelings' towards him. Ask if he feels ready to take a big step forward together? That should do it.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
I guess put the question on UKC and the person will quickly work it out...
Or pretend you are gay as per coombsy's suggest!!!!
I guess put the question on UKC and the person will quickly work it out...
Or pretend you are gay as per coombsy's suggest!!!!
Post edited at 19:33
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
It's fine.
You speak with them (why is everyone assuming it's a man?) and explain that they're doing some things that bother people. You ask them if they'd be prepared to do things differently in future. If they recognise the behaviour and want to change, you help them do it and everyone wins.
If they don't change, you then say enough is enough - but they had a chance.
If they don't accept the conversation, then they won't be coming back anyway.
Or, e-mail them this link.
It's fine.
You speak with them (why is everyone assuming it's a man?) and explain that they're doing some things that bother people. You ask them if they'd be prepared to do things differently in future. If they recognise the behaviour and want to change, you help them do it and everyone wins.
If they don't change, you then say enough is enough - but they had a chance.
If they don't accept the conversation, then they won't be coming back anyway.
Or, e-mail them this link.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
I once had what sounds like a similar situation, if this guy is a safety liability rather than just a knobber, which fortunately for me was resolved when I moved continents. A couple of years later another member of the old group emailed me to let me know that what we had all feared had happened and this guy's partner had been killed whilst they were on a mountain. Full story never came out (we only had the survivor's story which could or could not have been true). My point is that this is serious stuff and you should trust your instincts not to climb with this person - if you hurt their feelings well tough better that than put yourself at risk.
I once had what sounds like a similar situation, if this guy is a safety liability rather than just a knobber, which fortunately for me was resolved when I moved continents. A couple of years later another member of the old group emailed me to let me know that what we had all feared had happened and this guy's partner had been killed whilst they were on a mountain. Full story never came out (we only had the survivor's story which could or could not have been true). My point is that this is serious stuff and you should trust your instincts not to climb with this person - if you hurt their feelings well tough better that than put yourself at risk.
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In reply to JJL:
Well of course it's a man! ;O)
Also, the OP dropped something of a clue in a subsequent post:
"But, the bloke thinks he's brilliant, he has no understanding that he does anything wrong."
> (why is everyone assuming it's a man?)
Well of course it's a man! ;O)
Also, the OP dropped something of a clue in a subsequent post:
"But, the bloke thinks he's brilliant, he has no understanding that he does anything wrong."
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In reply to JJL:
Agree with the above though...
This makes me think of the possibility that he may have something like a narcissistic personality disorder. If, and that's a very, very big 'if', that's so it might be hard to do. Such people can be very manipulative, difficult to deal with and end up not being liked by many people.
Agree with the above though...
> But, the bloke thinks he's brilliant, he has no understanding that he does anything wrong.
This makes me think of the possibility that he may have something like a narcissistic personality disorder. If, and that's a very, very big 'if', that's so it might be hard to do. Such people can be very manipulative, difficult to deal with and end up not being liked by many people.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Jim,I can't believe I had to find out like this,yes I may have dropped a few people,but I never dropped you,jim,I never dropped you
Jim,I can't believe I had to find out like this,yes I may have dropped a few people,but I never dropped you,jim,I never dropped you
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In reply to Wsdconst:
Leave it pal. He's not worth it... You're the salt of the earth, you are. He doesn't deserve you.
Leave it pal. He's not worth it... You're the salt of the earth, you are. He doesn't deserve you.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Arrange to meet at a crag.
Go somewhere different.
Repeat.
If challenged just say "plans got changed.... He'll work it out eventually.
Arrange to meet at a crag.
Go somewhere different.
Repeat.
If challenged just say "plans got changed.... He'll work it out eventually.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Get everyone in your group to stop performing personal hygiene and make a game up where they have to get him as close to your unwashed arm pits as much as possible in ever more creative ways. You'll have a laugh doing it no awkward conversations and save a few quid on your bills. Its a win win
Get everyone in your group to stop performing personal hygiene and make a game up where they have to get him as close to your unwashed arm pits as much as possible in ever more creative ways. You'll have a laugh doing it no awkward conversations and save a few quid on your bills. Its a win win
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
I think you need printed t-shirts. One word on each person's back, take your jackets off and turn round and there is your message.
I think you need printed t-shirts. One word on each person's back, take your jackets off and turn round and there is your message.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Sign him up to the Triads? That way next time you head off for a day at Burbage he'll be embroiled in some heavy gangland shit and will sadly have to pass on the day's jollity.
Sign him up to the Triads? That way next time you head off for a day at Burbage he'll be embroiled in some heavy gangland shit and will sadly have to pass on the day's jollity.
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In reply to Simonfarfaraway:
Unless you are 100% sure of his sexuality that could have unexpected consequences.
I was good friends with a couple when we were first married, later , after having 2 kids , they split up, and he now lives in Brighton with his gay lover.
( Although looking back , there were clues in his 'enthusiastic' dancing at discos - it was back in the 70's )
> Or pretend you are gay as per coombsy's suggest!!!!
Unless you are 100% sure of his sexuality that could have unexpected consequences.
I was good friends with a couple when we were first married, later , after having 2 kids , they split up, and he now lives in Brighton with his gay lover.
( Although looking back , there were clues in his 'enthusiastic' dancing at discos - it was back in the 70's )
Post edited at 00:43
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In reply to Kassius:
"Get everyone in your group to stop performing personal hygiene"
Don't most climbers follow this principle anyway.....
"Get everyone in your group to stop performing personal hygiene"
Don't most climbers follow this principle anyway.....
Post edited at 05:54
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In reply to Babika:
Cruel! My suggestion is,
1. Give him a fiver and drop him outside Pete's Eats, say "Get the teas in while I park".
2. Drive straight home without stopping as soon as he goes in Pete's.
Seriously though, to the OP, I suggest 1. arranging to go away/ climb without telling him about it. 2. Repeat. Good luck.
> Arrange to meet at a crag... Go somewhere different.... Repeat.
Cruel! My suggestion is,
1. Give him a fiver and drop him outside Pete's Eats, say "Get the teas in while I park".
2. Drive straight home without stopping as soon as he goes in Pete's.
Seriously though, to the OP, I suggest 1. arranging to go away/ climb without telling him about it. 2. Repeat. Good luck.
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In reply to stp: Narcissistic personality disorder is exactly what this sounds like... Very corrosive to be around and only gets worse for the group dynamic. And if so the only thing that can be done in my book is straight talking. "Sorry chummy, we don't want to climb with you anymore."
If they do have the disorder (and it does sound like it (deflecting blame, never wrong, inability to apologise, unable to demonstrate empathy), they won't believe a word you're saying, either way you won't be climbing with them again.
If they do have the disorder (and it does sound like it (deflecting blame, never wrong, inability to apologise, unable to demonstrate empathy), they won't believe a word you're saying, either way you won't be climbing with them again.
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some very funny ones on here
could suggest he goes on a course with an MIA/guide or you wont climb with him again. They should be able to put him straight without any personal contact.....
Post edited at 08:58
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In reply to coombsy:
That could backfire in spectacular fashion.
> Ask if you can have a quiet word with him - say that recently you've been having 'certain feelings' towards him...
That could backfire in spectacular fashion.
In reply to JimHolmes69:
sounds like a guy in my clique won't lead but tells you how to climb. and when it come to his turn to drive theres always an excuse not to, like my tyres are the wrong pressure or the rear view mirror is facing the wrong way. fortunately for us tho he does spend a few weeks abroad regularly so we get a bit of a break.
sounds like a guy in my clique won't lead but tells you how to climb. and when it come to his turn to drive theres always an excuse not to, like my tyres are the wrong pressure or the rear view mirror is facing the wrong way. fortunately for us tho he does spend a few weeks abroad regularly so we get a bit of a break.
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In reply to JJL:
Maybe because in line one of the OP the OP said "he has been upsetting some of our group....".
> ....why is everyone assuming it's a man?....
Maybe because in line one of the OP the OP said "he has been upsetting some of our group....".
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In reply to Orgsm:
A 3-word suggestion. Very concise. But can I add, when he's hanging on it, not when you're hanging on it*.
*Disclaimer and safety warning, this is a joke.
> Cut the rope.
A 3-word suggestion. Very concise. But can I add, when he's hanging on it, not when you're hanging on it*.
*Disclaimer and safety warning, this is a joke.
In reply to marsbar:
That really made me laugh out loud)))
> I think you need printed t-shirts. One word on each person's back, take your jackets off and turn round and there is your message.
That really made me laugh out loud)))
In reply to JimHolmes69:
Get him on Altar Crack?
> But, the bloke thinks he's brilliant, he has no understanding that he does anything wrong. How do you get through to someone like that?
Get him on Altar Crack?
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
In his absence become a naturalist climbing club. (This may not be possible in Scotland due to the cold and midges) I would be surprised if he would second someone only wearing a climbing harness.
In his absence become a naturalist climbing club. (This may not be possible in Scotland due to the cold and midges) I would be surprised if he would second someone only wearing a climbing harness.
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In reply to Aztec Bar:
>>In his absence become a naturalist climbing club.
What, looking at birds and trees and wild flowers and stuff?
Maybe 'Naturist' would fit your idea better
>>In his absence become a naturalist climbing club.
What, looking at birds and trees and wild flowers and stuff?
Maybe 'Naturist' would fit your idea better
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Some people - as in more than one? If there was someone in my club who dropped even one person I would never climb with them and I would not be shy about explaining why. There is no room in this sport for those who don't take belaying seriously.
> But he has dropped some people! I wish that was a joke.
Some people - as in more than one? If there was someone in my club who dropped even one person I would never climb with them and I would not be shy about explaining why. There is no room in this sport for those who don't take belaying seriously.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
You should be grateful you've got a Guide that wants to climb with you. If you really want to dissuade them you could insist that every trip is to somewhere totally crap? (Houses o' th' Hill Quarry springs to mind but almost anything in the minor crags sections of Lancashire Rock may fit the bill). You will suffer for a while but eventually they may drift away?
> They are often quite tactless about the way we climb, how we use gear and they always seem to be quite selfish.
You should be grateful you've got a Guide that wants to climb with you. If you really want to dissuade them you could insist that every trip is to somewhere totally crap? (Houses o' th' Hill Quarry springs to mind but almost anything in the minor crags sections of Lancashire Rock may fit the bill). You will suffer for a while but eventually they may drift away?
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Write to the Dear Mary column in the Spectator magazine. She is very good at addressing this sort of ticklish people problem.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/life/dear-mary/
Good luck.
Write to the Dear Mary column in the Spectator magazine. She is very good at addressing this sort of ticklish people problem.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/life/dear-mary/
Good luck.
In reply to JimHolmes69:
I believe cutting the rope was used in victorian times - at least on the matterhorn I hear.
I believe cutting the rope was used in victorian times - at least on the matterhorn I hear.
In reply to Andy Say:
I like climbing in Lancashire and that doesn't put him off. Also, he only follows routes and complains about my gear placements. Never heard of alter crack? Perhaps a traverse will be more realistic. Not a sea cliff as I would have to do the rescuing.
I like climbing in Lancashire and that doesn't put him off. Also, he only follows routes and complains about my gear placements. Never heard of alter crack? Perhaps a traverse will be more realistic. Not a sea cliff as I would have to do the rescuing.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Have you tried the traditional tactic of simply telling him to F**k off?
> I like climbing in Lancashire and that doesn't put him off. Also, he only follows routes and complains about my gear placements. Never heard of alter crack? Perhaps a traverse will be more realistic. Not a sea cliff as I would have to do the rescuing.
Have you tried the traditional tactic of simply telling him to F**k off?
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Mebe you deserve each other then. Or you aren't trying hard enough to find the real choss holes.
No. I've done few called 'Altar Crack' though. Enjoyed the one at Rivelin when I did it a few years back
> I like climbing in Lancashire and that doesn't put him off.
Mebe you deserve each other then. Or you aren't trying hard enough to find the real choss holes.
> Never heard of alter crack?
No. I've done few called 'Altar Crack' though. Enjoyed the one at Rivelin when I did it a few years back
In reply to JimHolmes69:
You don't have to climb with him. Just tell him you don't like climbing with him and why and leave it at that.
You don't have to climb with him. Just tell him you don't like climbing with him and why and leave it at that.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
That's his problem, not yours. Unless you keep climbing with him.
More helpfully, if you climb as a three, tell him you only want to climb as a pair in future because of faff and other half baked reasons. Honesty is probably the best way, and no it won't be pleasant.
> But, the bloke thinks he's brilliant, he has no understanding that he does anything wrong.
That's his problem, not yours. Unless you keep climbing with him.
More helpfully, if you climb as a three, tell him you only want to climb as a pair in future because of faff and other half baked reasons. Honesty is probably the best way, and no it won't be pleasant.
In reply to JimHolmes69:
I love the way that everyone has the guy, guilty, hung, drawn and quartered....all because one person says something with no evidence to show (video, statements from others).
Maybe it might be an idea to hire a guide for the day, to assess the whole of the said group at the crag or wall, you may be surprised to find out how crap you could actually be? They should then tell you where the groups skills are lacking.
Alternatively, gang up on him, it's not bullying after all....
I love the way that everyone has the guy, guilty, hung, drawn and quartered....all because one person says something with no evidence to show (video, statements from others).
Maybe it might be an idea to hire a guide for the day, to assess the whole of the said group at the crag or wall, you may be surprised to find out how crap you could actually be? They should then tell you where the groups skills are lacking.
Alternatively, gang up on him, it's not bullying after all....
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In reply to aultguish:
Bullying depends on the balance of power...I am amazed people will discuss personal problems on a forum forming a permanent public record where it may become obvious (at some time in the future) to the individuals being discussed, that its about them. Maybe the moderators should move this to Down The Pub so it dies quietly.
Bullying depends on the balance of power...I am amazed people will discuss personal problems on a forum forming a permanent public record where it may become obvious (at some time in the future) to the individuals being discussed, that its about them. Maybe the moderators should move this to Down The Pub so it dies quietly.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
What does this mean, should it be 'quite tactless'? Assuming so: it's worth considering they may, however tactlessly put it have a point.
It seems you don't feel they fit in or aren't liked, at least by you, perhaps by the rest of the group. I don't see how you can deliver that message without it being at least a little hurtful.
It seems to me your options are basically: do something to help them fit in better, tolerate them, stop inviting them on trips or just honestly say what you've said here as tactfully as you can manage.
jk
> They are often quiet tackles about the ways we climb, how we use gear and they always seem to be quite selfish.
What does this mean, should it be 'quite tactless'? Assuming so: it's worth considering they may, however tactlessly put it have a point.
It seems you don't feel they fit in or aren't liked, at least by you, perhaps by the rest of the group. I don't see how you can deliver that message without it being at least a little hurtful.
It seems to me your options are basically: do something to help them fit in better, tolerate them, stop inviting them on trips or just honestly say what you've said here as tactfully as you can manage.
jk
In reply to JimHolmes69:
If you think someone is unsafe, there is no option but to take them aside and have a quiet word. Best to do this in a non-humiliating way, to allow them the metaphorical "climbing down gracefully" option.
There are 2 kinds of unsafe however :
1. the "someone is doing something wrong" type - point it out to them, give your reasons why you think it is wrong and any authoritative references if you can find them, and how they can remedy it.
2. the "this person is a liability, always will be and is an accident looking to happen" - nothing to be done but to take them aside and say "sorry, I think you are not suited to this sport and don't have a suitable mindset or awareness, so I think you should stop it/confine to indoor climbing, in any case I/we will never climb with you again"
I have had both types, both very enthusiastic. The "doing something wrong, had learnt too quickly, had physical climbing ability but not enough background, but had the nous to remedy their errors" managed to terrify me on a trip away, I had decided to have a word about his specific faults as soon as I saw him next. Unfortunately in the meanwhile he had gone away with somebody else. During that trip, he decked seriously and was crippled for life. So my little talk intention was too late.
The other also thoroughly frightened me, on a Scottish Winter weekend. As I knew all the ice-climbers he would know, I spoke to all of them separately and made sure none of them would climb in Winter with him. I was still very worried by his deadly combination of extreme enthusiasm coupled with what seemed like a total and insuperable lack of awareness of the mountain situation, but thought that he would be safe enough in the more controlled atmosphere of Summer rock climbing.
He tripped and fell when descending from a popular Welsh crag and was killed instantly. In the discussions afterwards, it became clear that everyone who had climbed with him had had serious disquiets, but no-one had added them all together.
You have to say your piece, for preference in private and at a quiet time. Might be worth writing down what you want to say. If he ignores it or reacts aggressively, just say, well I and XXX will never climb with you again, because of what I just said. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong in your criticism, as this is your decision to not climb with him, but it is much better to be sure of your facts.
With regard to relationships or attitudes, that is another matter. As always there is no right or wrong answer, just a point where you decide you can't be comfortable with him around.
> But he has dropped some people!
If you think someone is unsafe, there is no option but to take them aside and have a quiet word. Best to do this in a non-humiliating way, to allow them the metaphorical "climbing down gracefully" option.
There are 2 kinds of unsafe however :
1. the "someone is doing something wrong" type - point it out to them, give your reasons why you think it is wrong and any authoritative references if you can find them, and how they can remedy it.
2. the "this person is a liability, always will be and is an accident looking to happen" - nothing to be done but to take them aside and say "sorry, I think you are not suited to this sport and don't have a suitable mindset or awareness, so I think you should stop it/confine to indoor climbing, in any case I/we will never climb with you again"
I have had both types, both very enthusiastic. The "doing something wrong, had learnt too quickly, had physical climbing ability but not enough background, but had the nous to remedy their errors" managed to terrify me on a trip away, I had decided to have a word about his specific faults as soon as I saw him next. Unfortunately in the meanwhile he had gone away with somebody else. During that trip, he decked seriously and was crippled for life. So my little talk intention was too late.
The other also thoroughly frightened me, on a Scottish Winter weekend. As I knew all the ice-climbers he would know, I spoke to all of them separately and made sure none of them would climb in Winter with him. I was still very worried by his deadly combination of extreme enthusiasm coupled with what seemed like a total and insuperable lack of awareness of the mountain situation, but thought that he would be safe enough in the more controlled atmosphere of Summer rock climbing.
He tripped and fell when descending from a popular Welsh crag and was killed instantly. In the discussions afterwards, it became clear that everyone who had climbed with him had had serious disquiets, but no-one had added them all together.
You have to say your piece, for preference in private and at a quiet time. Might be worth writing down what you want to say. If he ignores it or reacts aggressively, just say, well I and XXX will never climb with you again, because of what I just said. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong in your criticism, as this is your decision to not climb with him, but it is much better to be sure of your facts.
With regard to relationships or attitudes, that is another matter. As always there is no right or wrong answer, just a point where you decide you can't be comfortable with him around.
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In reply to JimHolmes69:
Find an equally competent partner and make the introductions. I suggest you post a new topic titled 'Climbing partner required for friendship and fun. Must have own car, be financially benevolent and have a good connections with the climbing elite. Competence in all aspects of climbing techniques are not required as expert tuition will be offered'.
That should solve your dilemma Jim.
Find an equally competent partner and make the introductions. I suggest you post a new topic titled 'Climbing partner required for friendship and fun. Must have own car, be financially benevolent and have a good connections with the climbing elite. Competence in all aspects of climbing techniques are not required as expert tuition will be offered'.
That should solve your dilemma Jim.
In reply to Bobling:
There you go, there is your solution - move continents.
> which fortunately for me was resolved when I moved continents.
There you go, there is your solution - move continents.
In reply to Bingers:
If you want to start a bit easier than moving whole continents, you could just move the UK down to the Azores
> There you go, there is your solution - move continents.
If you want to start a bit easier than moving whole continents, you could just move the UK down to the Azores
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In reply to Simon4:
I completely agree, and asap!
> If you think someone is unsafe, there is no option but to take them aside and have a quiet word. Best to do this in a non-humiliating way, to allow them the metaphorical "climbing down gracefully" option.
I completely agree, and asap!
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In reply to dereke12000:
Unfortunately that doesn't always seem to work. I've been down that avenue before and despite all of the climbing partners agreeing person X was a liability, person X just ended up resenting me and hurting himself! In this case it was a clear case of very poor ability to place and spot gear and general rope work, coupled with quite a large over exaggeration of abilities.
I have a similar issue now with someone I don't know very well but in a wider group of climbers, that is soloing climbs and also leading climbs virtually as solo (for example one piece of gear at 1/3 height struggling at crux at the top when there was more gear on the route) when they are clearly not making the climbing look easy enough to be doing this. They are clearly experienced enough to know better too. If they want to solo routes 1-2 tech grades under their actual limit fair enough, but would much rather not around me. It also freaks me out when they deliberately don't place enough gear to prevent ground fall and lead the same. I wouldn't like to be holding their ropes regularly in that case.
> I completely agree, and asap!
Unfortunately that doesn't always seem to work. I've been down that avenue before and despite all of the climbing partners agreeing person X was a liability, person X just ended up resenting me and hurting himself! In this case it was a clear case of very poor ability to place and spot gear and general rope work, coupled with quite a large over exaggeration of abilities.
I have a similar issue now with someone I don't know very well but in a wider group of climbers, that is soloing climbs and also leading climbs virtually as solo (for example one piece of gear at 1/3 height struggling at crux at the top when there was more gear on the route) when they are clearly not making the climbing look easy enough to be doing this. They are clearly experienced enough to know better too. If they want to solo routes 1-2 tech grades under their actual limit fair enough, but would much rather not around me. It also freaks me out when they deliberately don't place enough gear to prevent ground fall and lead the same. I wouldn't like to be holding their ropes regularly in that case.
Post edited at 11:15
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
Its not really about it always working, its about you (or the OP), doing the best you can in the circumstances.
You don't have any power to compel them to accept your advice, but you will have said your piece. If it is reasoned and correct, they can accept it or they may not, but you have done all you can. Also, and very importantly, you will not be climbing with them, so will be no longer at risk of what you think they are doing wrong.
Ultimately even if you are quite right about them being a liability, there is only so much you can do to save them from themselves. It is a bit more of a dilemma what to do about mutual friends who still climb with them, when you think they are dangerous though.
> Unfortunately that doesn't always seem to work.
Its not really about it always working, its about you (or the OP), doing the best you can in the circumstances.
You don't have any power to compel them to accept your advice, but you will have said your piece. If it is reasoned and correct, they can accept it or they may not, but you have done all you can. Also, and very importantly, you will not be climbing with them, so will be no longer at risk of what you think they are doing wrong.
Ultimately even if you are quite right about them being a liability, there is only so much you can do to save them from themselves. It is a bit more of a dilemma what to do about mutual friends who still climb with them, when you think they are dangerous though.
Post edited at 11:19
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
but that is not your responsibility (unless you are their carer/parent/guardian) - they sound like a risk to yourself and your mates (and themselves) and therefore need a (private) explanation of the problem - what they do next is up to them, sorry if that seems harsh
> Unfortunately that doesn't always seem to work. I've been down that avenue before and despite all of the climbing partners agreeing person X was a liability, person X just ended up resenting me and hurting himself!
but that is not your responsibility (unless you are their carer/parent/guardian) - they sound like a risk to yourself and your mates (and themselves) and therefore need a (private) explanation of the problem - what they do next is up to them, sorry if that seems harsh
In reply to dereke12000:
To be a friend surely you care right? If someone actually doesn't understand the risk they are taking and behind their back all their climbing partners talk about it, would you rather be the one that says nothing or something? In this particular case after I'd tried to sort things out many times in person as tactfully as I know how, the person took the top off someone's rucksack whilst it was on their back with their ice axe falling off a renound ice gully for poor belays on to a belay their first time ever Internet partner said don't fall off on. Prior to this I'm fairly certain the leader had fallen off every ice climb of the same grade they'd tried on second. I nearly messaged some of their new partners behind this certain someone's back to warn them, but had already fallen out with him over this issue and felt I was being OTT.
To be a friend surely you care right? If someone actually doesn't understand the risk they are taking and behind their back all their climbing partners talk about it, would you rather be the one that says nothing or something? In this particular case after I'd tried to sort things out many times in person as tactfully as I know how, the person took the top off someone's rucksack whilst it was on their back with their ice axe falling off a renound ice gully for poor belays on to a belay their first time ever Internet partner said don't fall off on. Prior to this I'm fairly certain the leader had fallen off every ice climb of the same grade they'd tried on second. I nearly messaged some of their new partners behind this certain someone's back to warn them, but had already fallen out with him over this issue and felt I was being OTT.
Post edited at 22:09
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