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If I can carry my rubbish out from a picnic on top of a Torridon, surely revellers at a music festival can carry their rubbish out? Failing that I'd expect them to at least black bag it.
Looking at the pre-cleanup photos I stagger to believe that so many people can be so careless. If they can carry stuff in full it's not going to be difficult taking it out empty.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/lynzybilling/photos-that-capture-the-horror-of-the-...
This could finally tip me over into being a grumpy old tree.
Post edited at 21:51
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In reply to wintertree:
You do realise that the clean up costs are covered in the ticket price right?
You do realise that the clean up costs are covered in the ticket price right?
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1
In reply to wintertree:
Most festivals I've been to seem to be rather short on bins and large on paying people to pick up the litter. Beer usually comes in cardboard cups so people can just drop them once finished. Doesn't really sit very well with me but seems to be the way things are organised.
Most festivals I've been to seem to be rather short on bins and large on paying people to pick up the litter. Beer usually comes in cardboard cups so people can just drop them once finished. Doesn't really sit very well with me but seems to be the way things are organised.
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In reply to malky_c:
Iow had bins everywhere. Also nicer camping for those willing to sign up to cleaning up after themselves.
Iow had bins everywhere. Also nicer camping for those willing to sign up to cleaning up after themselves.
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In reply to 3 Names:
Yes, but regardless of how much I paid for a ticket I wouldn't feel it gave me the right to drop my rubbish wherever I wanted. If I could carry it in full I could bag it up empty and carry it out.
> You do realise that the clean up costs are covered in the ticket price right?
Yes, but regardless of how much I paid for a ticket I wouldn't feel it gave me the right to drop my rubbish wherever I wanted. If I could carry it in full I could bag it up empty and carry it out.
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In reply to wintertree:
Well, yes, a bit messy. But not much worse than this, just on a much, much larger scale
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=114461
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=33652
https://www.flickr.com/photos/j-and-p/3033528032
http://www.alpinist.com/media/web07-08w/sr-snells-field.jpg
http://www.supertopo.com/photos/26/66/388142_20857_L.jpg
Well, yes, a bit messy. But not much worse than this, just on a much, much larger scale
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=114461
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=33652
https://www.flickr.com/photos/j-and-p/3033528032
http://www.alpinist.com/media/web07-08w/sr-snells-field.jpg
http://www.supertopo.com/photos/26/66/388142_20857_L.jpg
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In reply to wintertree:
Full of Cider and Mandy up on Ben Eighe are you? Suppose it makes the comedown more interesting. The clean up at Glastonbury takes months. Plenty of ratty types work it into their itinerant employment cycle.
D
Full of Cider and Mandy up on Ben Eighe are you? Suppose it makes the comedown more interesting. The clean up at Glastonbury takes months. Plenty of ratty types work it into their itinerant employment cycle.
D
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In reply to wintertree:
Do you go to a Mitchelin 3 star restaurant and then do the washing up? Or where as you'd be happy to strip the bed and take the sheets to reception on checkout n a £15 youth hostel but maybe not at your £1000/night 5* hotel.
People paid close to £300 for tickets and in my experience this leads people being a bit less inhibited when it comes to doing what they normally would.
But I agree with your sentiment.... the dirty buggers.
Do you go to a Mitchelin 3 star restaurant and then do the washing up? Or where as you'd be happy to strip the bed and take the sheets to reception on checkout n a £15 youth hostel but maybe not at your £1000/night 5* hotel.
People paid close to £300 for tickets and in my experience this leads people being a bit less inhibited when it comes to doing what they normally would.
But I agree with your sentiment.... the dirty buggers.
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In reply to wintertree:
I think some of it is peoples desire to keep their place where they can see, rather than head off to the outskirts for a bin, it is after all what they paid for.
I think some of it is peoples desire to keep their place where they can see, rather than head off to the outskirts for a bin, it is after all what they paid for.
Post edited at 07:37
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In reply to wintertree:
I'm sure I heard on radio that its a 6 week job by a squad of volunteers to clean up... If that's the case that's really taking the P!ss as organiser should be paying for it. (bar the fact the messy blighters shouldn't dump everything in the first place).
I'm sure I heard on radio that its a 6 week job by a squad of volunteers to clean up... If that's the case that's really taking the P!ss as organiser should be paying for it. (bar the fact the messy blighters shouldn't dump everything in the first place).
In reply to wintertree:
What a mess! it looks like the day after Waterloo.
One thing that's puzzling me though. Does the clean up include burying all those bodies?
What a mess! it looks like the day after Waterloo.
One thing that's puzzling me though. Does the clean up include burying all those bodies?
2
In reply to summo:
Presumably they don't piss or cack themselves in the field but head of to a toilet? If so they can bag their rubbish, and carry it to a single heap when going to the loo.
Presumably they go back to their tents as well?
Paging money to see music shouldn't give one a licence to litter like an oik. Mind you it's much the same at a cinema
> I think some of it is peoples desire to keep their place where they can see, rather than head off to the outskirts for a bin, it is after all what they paid for.
Presumably they don't piss or cack themselves in the field but head of to a toilet? If so they can bag their rubbish, and carry it to a single heap when going to the loo.
Presumably they go back to their tents as well?
Paging money to see music shouldn't give one a licence to litter like an oik. Mind you it's much the same at a cinema
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1
In reply to wintertree:
I think a bit of perspective is required here. Glastonbury is basically a 4 day party where 200,000 people turn up. For a bit of perspective, that is the same as everyone (bar old grumblies) from Brighton and Dewsbury turning up in a field to have a good old knees up. I look at it the other way. It is amazing there is so little rubbish on the floor.
The demographic is generally quite young. I am sure we never had a climbing / camping party where things got a bit out of hand and the odd tinny was left lying around until the next morning.. at which point it was cleared away?
I think a bit of perspective is required here. Glastonbury is basically a 4 day party where 200,000 people turn up. For a bit of perspective, that is the same as everyone (bar old grumblies) from Brighton and Dewsbury turning up in a field to have a good old knees up. I look at it the other way. It is amazing there is so little rubbish on the floor.
The demographic is generally quite young. I am sure we never had a climbing / camping party where things got a bit out of hand and the odd tinny was left lying around until the next morning.. at which point it was cleared away?
Post edited at 08:21
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In reply to wintertree:
rubbish is inevitable, I will do my best to clean the dirty place .Or maybe everyone could be a volunteer to clean it up!
rubbish is inevitable, I will do my best to clean the dirty place .Or maybe everyone could be a volunteer to clean it up!
In reply to wintertree:
Given total lack of bins and total inability to dispose of something from the middle of a huge crowd then get back to friends I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption the organizers are going to have to collect some rubbish. Who cares, it's doubtless priced into the ridiculous ticket price.
It looks awful, I've no idea why people pay so much for that.
jk
Given total lack of bins and total inability to dispose of something from the middle of a huge crowd then get back to friends I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption the organizers are going to have to collect some rubbish. Who cares, it's doubtless priced into the ridiculous ticket price.
It looks awful, I've no idea why people pay so much for that.
jk
2
Great pics
I would say half those bottles were used to throw at those really annoying women who sit on the shoulders of their boyfriends and obscure what little view there was of the stage
I would say half those bottles were used to throw at those really annoying women who sit on the shoulders of their boyfriends and obscure what little view there was of the stage
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In reply to Ferret:
The volunteers get free tickets to glastonbury in return for their services.
> I'm sure I heard on radio that its a 6 week job by a squad of volunteers to clean up... If that's the case that's really taking the P!ss as organiser should be paying for it.
The volunteers get free tickets to glastonbury in return for their services.
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
Yeah, in the past some friends of mine did the clean-up and often found OK to great tents just left behind (not to mention all sorts of other things!) One year a friend found a massive Terra Nova basecamp/large mountain style tent in great condition!
Yeah, in the past some friends of mine did the clean-up and often found OK to great tents just left behind (not to mention all sorts of other things!) One year a friend found a massive Terra Nova basecamp/large mountain style tent in great condition!
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In reply to JayPee630:
I think Glastonbury make an effort to re-use/donate to charity salvageable tents, although I guess a proportion are too damaged to do anything useful with.
> Yeah, in the past some friends of mine did the clean-up and often found OK to great tents just left behind (not to mention all sorts of other things!) One year a friend found a massive Terra Nova basecamp/large mountain style tent in great condition!
I think Glastonbury make an effort to re-use/donate to charity salvageable tents, although I guess a proportion are too damaged to do anything useful with.
In reply to Phil79:
Yeah, I think they do now, my mates used to do clean-up a while ago before they put that in place I think.
Yeah, I think they do now, my mates used to do clean-up a while ago before they put that in place I think.
In reply to JayPee630:
I grew up in Somerset not too far from Glastonbury, and various people I knew used to do clean up duties back in the day. They had many stories of the various goodies they found (illicit or otherwise!).
I grew up in Somerset not too far from Glastonbury, and various people I knew used to do clean up duties back in the day. They had many stories of the various goodies they found (illicit or otherwise!).
In reply to jkarran:
There doesn't seem to be any inability to carry the stuff into the middle of that huge crowd. Is it really so hard to hold onto the litter once they have consumed it's contents?
> Given total lack of bins and total inability to dispose of something from the middle of a huge crowd then get back to friends I think it's a pretty reasonable assumption the organizers are going to have to collect some rubbish. Who cares, it's doubtless priced into the ridiculous ticket price.
There doesn't seem to be any inability to carry the stuff into the middle of that huge crowd. Is it really so hard to hold onto the litter once they have consumed it's contents?
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In reply to timjones:
I'm sure you could but what's the point? Even if 99% of people did there'd still be a big clean up operation needed.
jk
> There doesn't seem to be any inability to carry the stuff into the middle of that huge crowd. Is it really so hard to hold onto the litter once they have consumed it's contents?
I'm sure you could but what's the point? Even if 99% of people did there'd still be a big clean up operation needed.
jk
1
In reply to timjones:
Let's have a reality check...
It's Glastonbury
everyone's f*cked
Nobody is thinking about litter
To understand you need to have experienced it.
"Right, I'm utterly spangled, I'm gurning, I'm f*cked if I know where the sky is never mind the bins, but folks....I think it's time for a tidy up round here"
Never going to happen
Let's have a reality check...
It's Glastonbury
everyone's f*cked
Nobody is thinking about litter
To understand you need to have experienced it.
"Right, I'm utterly spangled, I'm gurning, I'm f*cked if I know where the sky is never mind the bins, but folks....I think it's time for a tidy up round here"
Never going to happen
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In reply to Phil79:
I've hard that rumour before. In reality no charity wants an Aldi tent reeking of shit and piss.
As others have said, it's a festival so pretty much par forvthe course. The unfortunate thing is it encourages people to turn up on beaches and the fells with a disposable bbq, a disposable tent and a crate of beer, then just leave it.
> I think Glastonbury make an effort to re-use/donate to charity salvageable tents, although I guess a proportion are too damaged to do anything useful with.
I've hard that rumour before. In reality no charity wants an Aldi tent reeking of shit and piss.
As others have said, it's a festival so pretty much par forvthe course. The unfortunate thing is it encourages people to turn up on beaches and the fells with a disposable bbq, a disposable tent and a crate of beer, then just leave it.
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In reply to Ridge:
No it doesn't. Litter was being left in beauty spots well before Glastonbury was the big thing. It is just a part of society. Most are responsible. A few leave their sh1t left right and centre.
> The unfortunate thing is it encourages people to turn up on beaches and the fells with a disposable bbq, a disposable tent and a crate of beer, then just leave it.
No it doesn't. Litter was being left in beauty spots well before Glastonbury was the big thing. It is just a part of society. Most are responsible. A few leave their sh1t left right and centre.
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In reply to Ridge:
I did a bit of digging and found this interview with the chap in charge of waste and recycling at Glasto. It seems you're right.
http://resource.co/article/Think_Tank/When_party%e2%80%99s_over#.U5hgRXb5nA...
"Emblemising a throw-away mentality, every year, thousands of tents and other reusable items are left behind. One year, this figure reached 20,000 – a group had put up signs asking for tents to be donated to Africa, but then “buggered off back to London with about 50 tents”. Last year, a local woman collected about 1,000 to use to make clothes, and groups like the Boy Scouts and Air Cadets also get to pick through the leftovers. Asked if any tents wind up in landfill, Kearle replies: “Yes. Because quite a lot of them have either been ripped or actually used as toilets. So, no one wants to recycle those.”
So it looks like a minority of tents get re-used, the rest probably landfilled. And that's pretty much par for the course.
> I've hard that rumour before. In reality no charity wants an Aldi tent reeking of shit and piss.
I did a bit of digging and found this interview with the chap in charge of waste and recycling at Glasto. It seems you're right.
http://resource.co/article/Think_Tank/When_party%e2%80%99s_over#.U5hgRXb5nA...
"Emblemising a throw-away mentality, every year, thousands of tents and other reusable items are left behind. One year, this figure reached 20,000 – a group had put up signs asking for tents to be donated to Africa, but then “buggered off back to London with about 50 tents”. Last year, a local woman collected about 1,000 to use to make clothes, and groups like the Boy Scouts and Air Cadets also get to pick through the leftovers. Asked if any tents wind up in landfill, Kearle replies: “Yes. Because quite a lot of them have either been ripped or actually used as toilets. So, no one wants to recycle those.”
So it looks like a minority of tents get re-used, the rest probably landfilled. And that's pretty much par for the course.
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In reply to jkarran:
For some I guess it's a matter of principle. Personally I have yet to say or think "I might as well sling my litter on the floor because someone else has already done it".
Why make other peoples lives harder than they need to be?
> I'm sure you could but what's the point? Even if 99% of people did there'd still be a big clean up operation needed.
For some I guess it's a matter of principle. Personally I have yet to say or think "I might as well sling my litter on the floor because someone else has already done it".
Why make other peoples lives harder than they need to be?
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In reply to I can eat 50 eggs:
Never going to happen, or make it happen?
Quote from love your tent Facebook page
To everyone that camped with us over the weekend at Official Isle of Wight Festival we wanted to send you a massive THANK YOU! We housed nearly 2500 people in our RESPECT and two Love Your Tent fields and all fields were left immaculately bar 2 people deciding to leave their pop up tents. All in all we were chuffed that so many of you celebrated the weekend with us and showed how a little love and respect can make such a difference to the festival experience. Can't wait for 2016
Never going to happen, or make it happen?
Quote from love your tent Facebook page
To everyone that camped with us over the weekend at Official Isle of Wight Festival we wanted to send you a massive THANK YOU! We housed nearly 2500 people in our RESPECT and two Love Your Tent fields and all fields were left immaculately bar 2 people deciding to leave their pop up tents. All in all we were chuffed that so many of you celebrated the weekend with us and showed how a little love and respect can make such a difference to the festival experience. Can't wait for 2016
3
In reply to timjones:
Perhaps because you've paid a pile of money to see a band and dance with your mates, not to spend an hour fighting through a jostling crowd looking for a bin bag followed by another hour or two looking for lost friends once you've given up because there aren't any. Plus it's hardly making someone's life harder, it's a paid job.
jk
> Why make other peoples lives harder than they need to be?
Perhaps because you've paid a pile of money to see a band and dance with your mates, not to spend an hour fighting through a jostling crowd looking for a bin bag followed by another hour or two looking for lost friends once you've given up because there aren't any. Plus it's hardly making someone's life harder, it's a paid job.
jk
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In reply to marsbar:
I think that's a highly commendable idea....but 2500 people is less than 4% of total numbers. Chances are rest of site still looks like Ypres.
> Never going to happen, or make it happen?
> Quote from love your tent Facebook page
> To everyone that camped with us over the weekend at Official Isle of Wight Festival we wanted to send you a massive THANK YOU! We housed nearly 2500 people in our RESPECT and two Love Your Tent fields and all fields were left immaculately bar 2 people deciding to leave their pop up tents. All in all we were chuffed that so many of you celebrated the weekend with us and showed how a little love and respect can make such a difference to the festival experience. Can't wait for 2016
I think that's a highly commendable idea....but 2500 people is less than 4% of total numbers. Chances are rest of site still looks like Ypres.
In reply to wintertree:
Unfortunately the attitude of "I paid my ticket so that includes somebody else clearing up after me", carries through in life.
" I pay my council taxes so they clear up after me" seems the general attitude in many towns.
Unfortunately the attitude of "I paid my ticket so that includes somebody else clearing up after me", carries through in life.
" I pay my council taxes so they clear up after me" seems the general attitude in many towns.
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In reply to Moley:
On what basis? Are you saying that each and every one of the two hundred thousand punters that turned up to Glastonbury a) has that attitude and then b) takes it and applies it to every day life. I mean really? Go back to your Daily Mail!
> Unfortunately the attitude of "I paid my ticket so that includes somebody else clearing up after me", carries through in life.
On what basis? Are you saying that each and every one of the two hundred thousand punters that turned up to Glastonbury a) has that attitude and then b) takes it and applies it to every day life. I mean really? Go back to your Daily Mail!
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In reply to JayPee630:
Some kid must've been in HUGE trouble for stealing, and then losing dad's tent...
> Yeah, in the past some friends of mine did the clean-up and often found OK to great tents just left behind (not to mention all sorts of other things!) One year a friend found a massive Terra Nova basecamp/large mountain style tent in great condition!
Some kid must've been in HUGE trouble for stealing, and then losing dad's tent...
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In reply to I can eat 50 eggs:
It wasn't nearly as bad as the pictures I have seen of Glastonbury, probably because there were wheely bins every few meters, normal and recycling, more so near the food areas and people did generally use them if they were provided. Bin bags and recycling bags were also provided at the camping areas. Cans weren't allowed into the music area, and drinks were in plastic refundable glasses, so kids everywhere were collecting them for 10p each which kept things clear and kept the kids from getting bored.
It wasn't nearly as bad as the pictures I have seen of Glastonbury, probably because there were wheely bins every few meters, normal and recycling, more so near the food areas and people did generally use them if they were provided. Bin bags and recycling bags were also provided at the camping areas. Cans weren't allowed into the music area, and drinks were in plastic refundable glasses, so kids everywhere were collecting them for 10p each which kept things clear and kept the kids from getting bored.
In reply to ByEek:
No, because not all of them will have left a mess, I think that is fairly obvious.
On the basis of the mess, yes, I think many do have that attitude in life.
No, I don't read the Mail, (heaven forbid), so go back to your Guardian!
> On what basis? Are you saying that each and every one of the two hundred thousand punters that turned up to Glastonbury a) has that attitude and then b) takes it and applies it to every day life. I mean really? Go back to your Daily Mail!
No, because not all of them will have left a mess, I think that is fairly obvious.
On the basis of the mess, yes, I think many do have that attitude in life.
No, I don't read the Mail, (heaven forbid), so go back to your Guardian!
In reply to wintertree:
People piss in cups and chuck them on the floor
I was once at Bingley Music Festival (MASSIVE event) and when walking back from the bar in the dark I kicked a full paper cup of piss which was stood on the ground and it went all over me and my mates.
As is mentioned further down the thread I have heard of big groups setting up their own DIY latrines. Pop up tent + bog roll et voila! Somewhere to crap without trailing to the hideous public toilets.
A grisly find for the campsite cleaner-uppers mind.
Andy.
People piss in cups and chuck them on the floor
I was once at Bingley Music Festival (MASSIVE event) and when walking back from the bar in the dark I kicked a full paper cup of piss which was stood on the ground and it went all over me and my mates.
As is mentioned further down the thread I have heard of big groups setting up their own DIY latrines. Pop up tent + bog roll et voila! Somewhere to crap without trailing to the hideous public toilets.
A grisly find for the campsite cleaner-uppers mind.
Andy.
In reply to Andrew Wilson:
Yuk yuk yuk. Wish I'd never asked... !
Perhaps I should start a business selling adult nappies and disposal services next time round.
Yuk yuk yuk. Wish I'd never asked... !
Perhaps I should start a business selling adult nappies and disposal services next time round.
In reply to wintertree:
have you never been to a big event, plenty of plastic bottles are re-filled before being dropped or thrown.
> Presumably they don't piss or cack themselves in the field but head of to a toilet?
have you never been to a big event, plenty of plastic bottles are re-filled before being dropped or thrown.
In reply to summo:
I've been to plenty of events with crowds in excess of 20,000 - so big but not by Glastonbury standards - and there people manage not to piss in bottles despite the crowding, distance to the toilets, and the fact they've paid money to see something.
I guess air shows attract a less filthy crowd.
> have you never been to a big event, plenty of plastic bottles are re-filled before being dropped or thrown.
I've been to plenty of events with crowds in excess of 20,000 - so big but not by Glastonbury standards - and there people manage not to piss in bottles despite the crowding, distance to the toilets, and the fact they've paid money to see something.
I guess air shows attract a less filthy crowd.
1
In reply to SenzuBean:
Probably paid for by Daddy for the use over the weekend.
D
> Some kid must've been in HUGE trouble for stealing, and then losing dad's tent...
Probably paid for by Daddy for the use over the weekend.
D
In reply to pneame:
God these bring back memories. Just as I remember it - a heaving mass of unwashed potless climbers
> Well, yes, a bit messy. But not much worse than this, just on a much, much larger scale
God these bring back memories. Just as I remember it - a heaving mass of unwashed potless climbers
In reply to Phil79:
The attitude to dumping rubbish where you finish eating or drinking, and just leaving everything behind after you for someone else to sort out (not to mention the sheer wastefulness) appalls me. And I'm sad to see that many people here think the ticket price justifies it. Seems like the litter lout's comeback 'well, I pay my taxes to employ road sweepers'. Yeah, and I pay my taxes to employ A&E staff. You fancy meeting them...?
The attitude to dumping rubbish where you finish eating or drinking, and just leaving everything behind after you for someone else to sort out (not to mention the sheer wastefulness) appalls me. And I'm sad to see that many people here think the ticket price justifies it. Seems like the litter lout's comeback 'well, I pay my taxes to employ road sweepers'. Yeah, and I pay my taxes to employ A&E staff. You fancy meeting them...?
6
In reply to captain paranoia:
i had been worked in hotel and some people will take it for granted that the hotel stuff should clean up the mess since they pay the room rate .the same situation can be seen in cinema, restaurant and other public places.
i had been worked in hotel and some people will take it for granted that the hotel stuff should clean up the mess since they pay the room rate .the same situation can be seen in cinema, restaurant and other public places.
1
In reply to Moley:
But this is just an assumption / speculation. And in your eyes everyone who goes to the festival is the same - utter bollocks.
Again - speculation. Have you actually met anyone that went to Glastonbury?
> No, because not all of them will have left a mess, I think that is fairly obvious.
But this is just an assumption / speculation. And in your eyes everyone who goes to the festival is the same - utter bollocks.
> On the basis of the mess, yes, I think many do have that attitude in life.
Again - speculation. Have you actually met anyone that went to Glastonbury?
In reply to ByEek:
I've been to Glastonbury twice, so met a few people. We didn't leave a mess.
Where have I mentioned anything about "everyone"?
> But this is just an assumption / speculation. And in your eyes everyone who goes to the festival is the same - utter bollocks.
> Again - speculation. Have you actually met anyone that went to Glastonbury?
I've been to Glastonbury twice, so met a few people. We didn't leave a mess.
Where have I mentioned anything about "everyone"?
Post edited at 08:47
1
In reply to captain paranoia:
You pay your money for the event, if the organisers choose focus spending on clean-up staff rather than adequate bin hire then so be it. Similar deal in airports and rail stations, they pay people to clean/collect continually so they don't have the perceived security risk of bins (gradually changing as the treat evolves). These are quite different situations to walking through an alpine meadow or down the local high street for that matter. I don't drop litter as a general rule and I pick up plenty of other people's in town and in the hills but I can't bring myself to get even a little bit wound up over a messy festival field that will be clean again in a couple of days, the organisers know the deal, the punters know the deal, it's a mess but it's temporary, no big deal.
Perhaps I'm misreading that last line but it looks like a threat?
jk
> The attitude to dumping rubbish where you finish eating or drinking, and just leaving everything behind after you for someone else to sort out (not to mention the sheer wastefulness) appalls me. And I'm sad to see that many people here think the ticket price justifies it. Seems like the litter lout's comeback 'well, I pay my taxes to employ road sweepers'. Yeah, and I pay my taxes to employ A&E staff. You fancy meeting them...?
You pay your money for the event, if the organisers choose focus spending on clean-up staff rather than adequate bin hire then so be it. Similar deal in airports and rail stations, they pay people to clean/collect continually so they don't have the perceived security risk of bins (gradually changing as the treat evolves). These are quite different situations to walking through an alpine meadow or down the local high street for that matter. I don't drop litter as a general rule and I pick up plenty of other people's in town and in the hills but I can't bring myself to get even a little bit wound up over a messy festival field that will be clean again in a couple of days, the organisers know the deal, the punters know the deal, it's a mess but it's temporary, no big deal.
Perhaps I'm misreading that last line but it looks like a threat?
jk
In reply to captain paranoia:
Last week on the Dragons Back Race, we were cleaning out the competitors tents all week. Amazing the difference in the tents, some groups (the same 8 to a tent every night) left their tent spotless every morning, others would leave all the rubbish in a neat heap or old bag by the door and a very few would leave a total s**t heap inside having made no attempt to clear anything at all, a tip.
But that was ok because they had paid their tickets and there were unpaid volunteers to clean the tent out for them every day. We sort of expected better from "outdoor" people.
Last week on the Dragons Back Race, we were cleaning out the competitors tents all week. Amazing the difference in the tents, some groups (the same 8 to a tent every night) left their tent spotless every morning, others would leave all the rubbish in a neat heap or old bag by the door and a very few would leave a total s**t heap inside having made no attempt to clear anything at all, a tip.
But that was ok because they had paid their tickets and there were unpaid volunteers to clean the tent out for them every day. We sort of expected better from "outdoor" people.
In reply to wintertree:
Great example of our throwaway culture. Now let me go and check my grey bin outside......
Great example of our throwaway culture. Now let me go and check my grey bin outside......
In reply to jkarran:
They managed to get hold of the food/drink in the first place!
> Perhaps because you've paid a pile of money to see a band and dance with your mates, not to spend an hour fighting through a jostling crowd looking for a bin bag followed by another hour or two looking for lost friends once you've given up because there aren't any. Plus it's hardly making someone's life harder, it's a paid job.
> jk
They managed to get hold of the food/drink in the first place!
In reply to timjones:
I'm not really sure that's a counter to any of the points I made. People in groups probably got the food as a group before entering the main crowd together. The presence of food vans should but doesn't imply the presence of bins, certainly not bins reasonably accessible from the middle of a 50K person crowd.
I really don't see why you have such a bee in your bonnet, litter or no litter the site is going to be ugly as hell after a big festival but the wagons, fences, roadways, stage, mudbath, shit filled ditches and compacted soil will be there for weeks after the last Rizzla packet and water bottle has long since been collected and recycled.
jk
> They managed to get hold of the food/drink in the first place!
I'm not really sure that's a counter to any of the points I made. People in groups probably got the food as a group before entering the main crowd together. The presence of food vans should but doesn't imply the presence of bins, certainly not bins reasonably accessible from the middle of a 50K person crowd.
I really don't see why you have such a bee in your bonnet, litter or no litter the site is going to be ugly as hell after a big festival but the wagons, fences, roadways, stage, mudbath, shit filled ditches and compacted soil will be there for weeks after the last Rizzla packet and water bottle has long since been collected and recycled.
jk
In reply to jkarran:
No bee in my bonnet
Just a lack of comprehension at how people can be so wilfully untidy
> I'm not really sure that's a counter to any of the points I made. People in groups probably got the food as a group before entering the main crowd together. The presence of food vans should but doesn't imply the presence of bins, certainly not bins reasonably accessible from the middle of a 50K person crowd.
> I really don't see why you have such a bee in your bonnet, litter or no litter the site is going to be ugly as hell after a big festival but the wagons, fences, roadways, stage, mudbath, shit filled ditches and compacted soil will be there for weeks after the last Rizzla packet and water bottle has long since been collected and recycled.
No bee in my bonnet
Just a lack of comprehension at how people can be so wilfully untidy
In reply to timjones:
I guess the way to look at it pragmatically is that it's a bit like leaving your plates and napkins etc on the table after you've had a meal in a restaurant - someone is paid to clear it up for you. You probably haven't pissed in the corner in this example though...
I guess the way to look at it pragmatically is that it's a bit like leaving your plates and napkins etc on the table after you've had a meal in a restaurant - someone is paid to clear it up for you. You probably haven't pissed in the corner in this example though...
1
In reply to Yanis Nayu:
No, sorry. I've had conversations/ confrontations with people dropping their shit on open spaces - the argument that someone else is paid to clear it up so it's ok to drop rubbish just doesn't cut it, but it's really common. If you wouldn't do it in the street or in the park, don't do it at festivals.
No, sorry. I've had conversations/ confrontations with people dropping their shit on open spaces - the argument that someone else is paid to clear it up so it's ok to drop rubbish just doesn't cut it, but it's really common. If you wouldn't do it in the street or in the park, don't do it at festivals.
2
In reply to toad:
Yep!
Any notion that you lose responsibility for your waste because your are 'too out of it' or because you think disposing of waste appropriately is 'inconvenient' reflects poorly on an individual.
Planning beforehand to litter with higher order 'waste' such as camping gear, or even to willfully trash such goods, is a terrible statement on societal wastefulness and modern consumption habits in general.
Yep!
Any notion that you lose responsibility for your waste because your are 'too out of it' or because you think disposing of waste appropriately is 'inconvenient' reflects poorly on an individual.
Planning beforehand to litter with higher order 'waste' such as camping gear, or even to willfully trash such goods, is a terrible statement on societal wastefulness and modern consumption habits in general.
5
In reply to toad:
For what it's worth, several friends of mine volunteer every year for the litter clear-up. They get in free to the festival and continue having fun on-site for weeks after the festival has finished. They'd be gutted if everyone at Glastonbury tidied up after themselves.
For what it's worth, several friends of mine volunteer every year for the litter clear-up. They get in free to the festival and continue having fun on-site for weeks after the festival has finished. They'd be gutted if everyone at Glastonbury tidied up after themselves.
In reply to jkarran:
It's the 'standard riposte' to the hypothetical litter lout's "it's someone's job, innit" comeback. And yes, there's an element of threat to it, but directed at the hypothetical litter lout.
> Perhaps I'm misreading that last line but it looks like a threat?
It's the 'standard riposte' to the hypothetical litter lout's "it's someone's job, innit" comeback. And yes, there's an element of threat to it, but directed at the hypothetical litter lout.
In reply to wintertree:
I think the lesson that needs to be learned here...
Grumpy old facts who have never been to a festival should not get their knickers in a twist over a problem that doesn't exist.
Unlike littering most places, all the litter is picked up at the end by people paid to do it (they might be called volunteers but they're not as they get tickets in exchange).
Its a lot easier for the organisers to clean up at the end (and within the arena each evening to an extent) than have enough bins for all the rubbish created from so many people concentrated in one area. More bins would also mean a shit load of big vehicles constantly going backwards and forwards on the paths full of drunk people.
So it's easier, cheaper and safer to clean up at the end rather than have adequate bins.
You've then got to consider the number of people wandering around to and from the stage with their litter. Its hard to get around a large packed crowd and also bloody annoying for the people you have to push past. Or everyone could have rucksacks for their rubbish which would be even more annoying. I date say it's also safer to not encourage this.
Tents and stuff left behind tend to be 25 quid ones from argos. They're pretty much one use anyway so would be binned. A lot of festivals for also have organisations that take the tents such as the scouts who then give them to charity (although they had to stop that at creamfields due to the number of needles left behind....)
So get a grip and realise that organising the rubbish disposal for 200,000 people in a field may be better done through different means than elsewhere. Its a matter of logistics.
I think the lesson that needs to be learned here...
Grumpy old facts who have never been to a festival should not get their knickers in a twist over a problem that doesn't exist.
Unlike littering most places, all the litter is picked up at the end by people paid to do it (they might be called volunteers but they're not as they get tickets in exchange).
Its a lot easier for the organisers to clean up at the end (and within the arena each evening to an extent) than have enough bins for all the rubbish created from so many people concentrated in one area. More bins would also mean a shit load of big vehicles constantly going backwards and forwards on the paths full of drunk people.
So it's easier, cheaper and safer to clean up at the end rather than have adequate bins.
You've then got to consider the number of people wandering around to and from the stage with their litter. Its hard to get around a large packed crowd and also bloody annoying for the people you have to push past. Or everyone could have rucksacks for their rubbish which would be even more annoying. I date say it's also safer to not encourage this.
Tents and stuff left behind tend to be 25 quid ones from argos. They're pretty much one use anyway so would be binned. A lot of festivals for also have organisations that take the tents such as the scouts who then give them to charity (although they had to stop that at creamfields due to the number of needles left behind....)
So get a grip and realise that organising the rubbish disposal for 200,000 people in a field may be better done through different means than elsewhere. Its a matter of logistics.
4
In reply to toad:
I'm not a festival goer, but I imagine dropping litter for me in any setting would be like shitting in the bath. There is clearly something different about the festival setting in people's minds, which is why I made the analogy with the restaurant.
I'm not a festival goer, but I imagine dropping litter for me in any setting would be like shitting in the bath. There is clearly something different about the festival setting in people's minds, which is why I made the analogy with the restaurant.
In reply to Scarab9:
You go right ahead and summaries those who agree with you as "lessons that need to be learnt." If you say so, sport.
If we're going to play at selectively summarising things I'll choose to discount that and note only the comments about other festivals that don't end up looking like a shit-tip the next day.
As for "get a grip", I'm sorry did my OP give any sign that I was loosing my grip on reality over this?
You go right ahead and summaries those who agree with you as "lessons that need to be learnt." If you say so, sport.
If we're going to play at selectively summarising things I'll choose to discount that and note only the comments about other festivals that don't end up looking like a shit-tip the next day.
As for "get a grip", I'm sorry did my OP give any sign that I was loosing my grip on reality over this?
In reply to Scarab9:
Tents and stuff left behind tend to be 25 quid ones from argos. They're pretty much one use anyway so would be binned. A lot of festivals for also have organisations that take the tents such as the scouts who then give them to charity (although they had to stop that at creamfields due to the number of needles left behind....)
Lets not pretend that all the camping equipment is left behind for altruistic reasons. It's left out of pure laziness.
As for people dropping litter where they stand, again, pure laziness. It's pretty easy to stack/collect everything into a bundle at the end of a particular event and leave it outside your tent, etc.
The littering problem is the same in any park at the end of a sunny day. Mounds of litter everywhere, but a bin a few yards away.
Tents and stuff left behind tend to be 25 quid ones from argos. They're pretty much one use anyway so would be binned. A lot of festivals for also have organisations that take the tents such as the scouts who then give them to charity (although they had to stop that at creamfields due to the number of needles left behind....)
Lets not pretend that all the camping equipment is left behind for altruistic reasons. It's left out of pure laziness.
As for people dropping litter where they stand, again, pure laziness. It's pretty easy to stack/collect everything into a bundle at the end of a particular event and leave it outside your tent, etc.
The littering problem is the same in any park at the end of a sunny day. Mounds of litter everywhere, but a bin a few yards away.
3
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
£220 (saved) for a few weeks work, bargain!
> For what it's worth, several friends of mine volunteer every year for the litter clear-up. They get in free to the festival and continue having fun on-site for weeks after the festival has finished. They'd be gutted if everyone at Glastonbury tidied up after themselves.
£220 (saved) for a few weeks work, bargain!
In reply to Lusk:
no, it will be a day or two for most of the volunteers. There are also paid people involved. Most of the festival staff companies ask for about 16 hrs of work in exchange for a ticket
> £220 (saved) for a few weeks work, bargain!
no, it will be a day or two for most of the volunteers. There are also paid people involved. Most of the festival staff companies ask for about 16 hrs of work in exchange for a ticket
In reply to FactorXXX:
)
I'm not, and I do agree it's pretty lazy when it comes to leaving tents and gazebos behind, but the point is it's still not a problem.
)
> Lets not pretend that all the camping equipment is left behind for altruistic reasons. It's left out of pure laziness.
I'm not, and I do agree it's pretty lazy when it comes to leaving tents and gazebos behind, but the point is it's still not a problem.
In reply to wintertree:
"summarise those who agree with you"? I was referring to the number of people going on about these awful litterers as if it's the same as littering elsewhere, not those who agree with me. "The lessons that need to be learned" comment was a dig at those again getting all wound up about it.
selectively summarising things? What are you on about? Also most festivals DO look a tip the next day and take into account Glastonbury has an enormous population there. What festival of a similar nature doesn't?
feeling the need to have a rant about something that is not a problem because it's part of the pre-organised logistics? Yes. I think get a grip is pretty fair.
Also great response to my valid points there, you didn't acknowledge or respond to any of them. bravo.
> You go right ahead and summaries those who agree with you as "lessons that need to be learnt." If you say so, sport.
"summarise those who agree with you"? I was referring to the number of people going on about these awful litterers as if it's the same as littering elsewhere, not those who agree with me. "The lessons that need to be learned" comment was a dig at those again getting all wound up about it.
> If we're going to play at selectively summarising things I'll choose to discount that and note only the comments about other festivals that don't end up looking like a shit-tip the next day.
selectively summarising things? What are you on about? Also most festivals DO look a tip the next day and take into account Glastonbury has an enormous population there. What festival of a similar nature doesn't?
> As for "get a grip", I'm sorry did my OP give any sign that I was loosing my grip on reality over this?
feeling the need to have a rant about something that is not a problem because it's part of the pre-organised logistics? Yes. I think get a grip is pretty fair.
Also great response to my valid points there, you didn't acknowledge or respond to any of them. bravo.
1
In reply to Scarab9:
I'm a very grumpy old fart who has been to 2 Glastonburys. We took a couple of bin liners, put all our rubbish in them and left them at a rubbish collection point.
I appreciate this is far too complicated and too much trouble for the majority of attendees, and would put others out of well paid jobs clearing up the rubbish. But I don't care.
That is why I am a grumpy old fart.
I'm a very grumpy old fart who has been to 2 Glastonburys. We took a couple of bin liners, put all our rubbish in them and left them at a rubbish collection point.
I appreciate this is far too complicated and too much trouble for the majority of attendees, and would put others out of well paid jobs clearing up the rubbish. But I don't care.
That is why I am a grumpy old fart.
2
In reply to Moley:
I don't suppose it takes a lot of forward planning to not drop any litter for a day, if you have a man bag or cycle messenger bag or something , if somebody buys a sandwich and a few drinks in disposable cups, and other odds and sods, the packaging won't take up loads of space, and mightn't bash people like a rucksack might.
I don't suppose it takes a lot of forward planning to not drop any litter for a day, if you have a man bag or cycle messenger bag or something , if somebody buys a sandwich and a few drinks in disposable cups, and other odds and sods, the packaging won't take up loads of space, and mightn't bash people like a rucksack might.
Post edited at 21:11
1
In reply to Scarab9:
Wow, as rants go it was more a mild observation that if you can carry "full stuff" in, you can carry "empty stuff" out. If you think that's "Get a grip" territory I am honestly speechless. In terms of "get a grip stuff", the most extreme thing I suggested was that I'd expect them to at least black bag it. - my god, I'm on the verge of going postal there.
1) I'm sorry - I got rather blown away by your glossing over all the different views and presenting a "lessons learned" that purely goes with one side of it.
2) What's the point? This thread has brought out good, well thought out views from multiple view points, I certainly appreciate - if not empathise with - the mindset behind the crap left behind a lot more than before I posted the thread. So I learned a lot - not the one sided lesson you boiled it down to.
3) More what's the point? I could argue until the cows come home:
Yes, it is logistics. And somehow people manage the logistics themselves of brining tents, full containers of food, beer and god knows what else with them, so it should not be hard for them to manage the logistics of taking them back out again when at least a subset of the times are lighter and can be compacted significantly. Also, I'm pretty sure it's not "a field" - the density of people won't be greater than smaller festivals (safety limits etc.), more people, more area, more money, more logistics.
I am not disputing your point that it's easier to clean up after litter louts after an event than during it - private land, and if sufficient steps are taken to stop the filth polluting the site or the surroundings it's no skin of my noise. I'm just surprised that so many people can be so happy to just become a litterer when someone else is being paid to clean it up.
> feeling the need to have a rant about something that is not a problem because it's part of the pre-organised logistics? Yes. I think get a grip is pretty fair.
Wow, as rants go it was more a mild observation that if you can carry "full stuff" in, you can carry "empty stuff" out. If you think that's "Get a grip" territory I am honestly speechless. In terms of "get a grip stuff", the most extreme thing I suggested was that I'd expect them to at least black bag it. - my god, I'm on the verge of going postal there.
> Also great response to my valid points there, you didn't acknowledge or respond to any of them. bravo.
1) I'm sorry - I got rather blown away by your glossing over all the different views and presenting a "lessons learned" that purely goes with one side of it.
2) What's the point? This thread has brought out good, well thought out views from multiple view points, I certainly appreciate - if not empathise with - the mindset behind the crap left behind a lot more than before I posted the thread. So I learned a lot - not the one sided lesson you boiled it down to.
3) More what's the point? I could argue until the cows come home:
> So get a grip and realise that organising the rubbish disposal for 200,000 people in a field may be better done through different means than elsewhere. Its a matter of logistics.
Yes, it is logistics. And somehow people manage the logistics themselves of brining tents, full containers of food, beer and god knows what else with them, so it should not be hard for them to manage the logistics of taking them back out again when at least a subset of the times are lighter and can be compacted significantly. Also, I'm pretty sure it's not "a field" - the density of people won't be greater than smaller festivals (safety limits etc.), more people, more area, more money, more logistics.
I am not disputing your point that it's easier to clean up after litter louts after an event than during it - private land, and if sufficient steps are taken to stop the filth polluting the site or the surroundings it's no skin of my noise. I'm just surprised that so many people can be so happy to just become a litterer when someone else is being paid to clean it up.
Post edited at 21:23
2
In reply to Lusk:
And board, and a few weeks' craic with nice folks in a Somerset field.
> £220 (saved) for a few weeks work, bargain!
And board, and a few weeks' craic with nice folks in a Somerset field.
In reply to 3 Names:
Just like clean up costs are covered in our taxes, right?
Sorry, don't want to get at you, but this kind of attitude is adopted but a lot of morons within the public (IMO there are A LOT of morons in the public)
who use it to justify littering. I am not calling you specifically a moron and I understand you are just providing an explanation. Don't wish to offend.
The littering at Glastonbury, and Stone Henge while I am at it, is nothing less than shameful.
> You do realise that the clean up costs are covered in the ticket price right?
Just like clean up costs are covered in our taxes, right?
Sorry, don't want to get at you, but this kind of attitude is adopted but a lot of morons within the public (IMO there are A LOT of morons in the public)
who use it to justify littering. I am not calling you specifically a moron and I understand you are just providing an explanation. Don't wish to offend.
The littering at Glastonbury, and Stone Henge while I am at it, is nothing less than shameful.
3
In reply to FactorXXX:
I believe Walt Disney saw a pattern with littering, in that people would not walk more than 20 m to a bin and would just litter instead. I think I am right in saying, because of this there are bins every 20m inside the Disney complexes. We humans are a bunch of lazy f*ckers who will doom ourselves in the end.
> The littering problem is the same in any park at the end of a sunny day. Mounds of litter everywhere, but a bin a few yards away.
I believe Walt Disney saw a pattern with littering, in that people would not walk more than 20 m to a bin and would just litter instead. I think I am right in saying, because of this there are bins every 20m inside the Disney complexes. We humans are a bunch of lazy f*ckers who will doom ourselves in the end.
2
In reply to wintertree:
Most of people will clean up their rubbish ,Standing a sign of clean up maybe useful for warning those who don't care about environment .
Most of people will clean up their rubbish ,Standing a sign of clean up maybe useful for warning those who don't care about environment .
In reply to wintertree:
This Glastonbury timelapse vid popped up on my fb feed - there's some impressive litter-picking action here and there..
https://www.facebook.com/809046435812964/videos/976828889034717/
This Glastonbury timelapse vid popped up on my fb feed - there's some impressive litter-picking action here and there..
https://www.facebook.com/809046435812964/videos/976828889034717/
3
In reply to wintertree: i get that people couldnt get to a bin, or that there is a team of refuse collectors, i don't think the people are bad for dropping refuse at an event that they know will be cleared after, I'm just staggered by the amount of waste we make!
I put all my refuse in the correct recycling bins at home, but this has shown me how much waste i must actually make! The only difference being that mine is at some depot somewhere. We homo sapiens are filthy, ignorant creatures.
Unfortunately Glastonbury epitomises our callous nature.
If the organisers/promotors have an environmental bone in their body, they must surely find it difficult to encourage an event that promotes such a waste of resources, wether they be food, energy, water, or materials from the petro-chemical industry?
This amount of waste really does sadden me
I put all my refuse in the correct recycling bins at home, but this has shown me how much waste i must actually make! The only difference being that mine is at some depot somewhere. We homo sapiens are filthy, ignorant creatures.
Unfortunately Glastonbury epitomises our callous nature.
If the organisers/promotors have an environmental bone in their body, they must surely find it difficult to encourage an event that promotes such a waste of resources, wether they be food, energy, water, or materials from the petro-chemical industry?
This amount of waste really does sadden me
1
In reply to cap'nChino:
I don't remember seeing any litter last time I went to Stonehenge 2 or 3 years ago. Or are you talking about some (similarly mindless) event at Stonehenge?
> The littering at Glastonbury, and Stone Henge while I am at it, is nothing less than shameful.
I don't remember seeing any litter last time I went to Stonehenge 2 or 3 years ago. Or are you talking about some (similarly mindless) event at Stonehenge?
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Referring to the summer solstice event they have every year. Most of the other times it's pretty litter free.
Referring to the summer solstice event they have every year. Most of the other times it's pretty litter free.
In reply to wintertree:
But they aren't littering. They are placing the litter where they know it will be picked up.
If you did the same in a beauty spot or even a city street the same could not be said. You're right about cinemas.
> Paging money to see music shouldn't give one a licence to litter like an oik. Mind you it's much the same at a cinema
But they aren't littering. They are placing the litter where they know it will be picked up.
If you did the same in a beauty spot or even a city street the same could not be said. You're right about cinemas.
1
In reply to cap'nChino:
Ha - interesting. On the one hand, you are correct. We are lazy forkers. However, on the other hand, we are also innovative and able to solve the problem at hand, in this case by positioning bins every 20m. I don't think we are doomed.
> I believe Walt Disney saw a pattern with littering, in that people would not walk more than 20 m to a bin and would just litter instead. I think I am right in saying, because of this there are bins every 20m inside the Disney complexes. We humans are a bunch of lazy f*ckers who will doom ourselves in the end.
Ha - interesting. On the one hand, you are correct. We are lazy forkers. However, on the other hand, we are also innovative and able to solve the problem at hand, in this case by positioning bins every 20m. I don't think we are doomed.
1
In reply to Zoro:
In what way is this 'wasteful'? Just about all the waste you talk of would be consumed in 'normal living'.
> i get that people couldnt get to a bin, or that there is a team of refuse collectors, i don't think the people are bad for dropping refuse at an event that they know will be cleared after, I'm just staggered by the amount of waste we make!
> I put all my refuse in the correct recycling bins at home, but this has shown me how much waste i must actually make! The only difference being that mine is at some depot somewhere. We homo sapiens are filthy, ignorant creatures.
> Unfortunately Glastonbury epitomises our callous nature.
> If the organisers/promotors have an environmental bone in their body, they must surely find it difficult to encourage an event that promotes such a waste of resources, wether they be food, energy, water, or materials from the petro-chemical industry?
> This amount of waste really does sadden me
>
In what way is this 'wasteful'? Just about all the waste you talk of would be consumed in 'normal living'.
In reply to ByEek:
Good point.
And who's to say that 20m indicates laziness? Presumably that is the point at which all but a tiny minority will not litter rather than what is required for everybody.
> Ha - interesting. On the one hand, you are correct. We are lazy forkers. However, on the other hand, we are also innovative and able to solve the problem at hand, in this case by positioning bins every 20m. I don't think we are doomed.
Good point.
And who's to say that 20m indicates laziness? Presumably that is the point at which all but a tiny minority will not litter rather than what is required for everybody.
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
That precisely the issue i have, but i might add that i beleive more energy/resources are used for an event like this than would be if we were at home.
That precisely the issue i have, but i might add that i beleive more energy/resources are used for an event like this than would be if we were at home.
In reply to Zoro:
It's also a lot more fun than being at home. Doing pretty much anything that involves going out the door consumes resources, including climbing, unless you have a crag within walking distance and go soloing on it in bare feet.
> i beleive more energy/resources are used for an event like this than would be if we were at home.
It's also a lot more fun than being at home. Doing pretty much anything that involves going out the door consumes resources, including climbing, unless you have a crag within walking distance and go soloing on it in bare feet.
1
In reply to wintertree:
Speaking with a girl last night who was at T. She witnessed 6 different people openly injecting themselves.
Don't think I'll wear flip flops if I end up there next year.
Speaking with a girl last night who was at T. She witnessed 6 different people openly injecting themselves.
Don't think I'll wear flip flops if I end up there next year.
Post edited at 07:56
In reply to ByEek:
A few? Just look out of a car window on just about any road near a town or city and see the amount of crap on the verges.
A few? Just look out of a car window on just about any road near a town or city and see the amount of crap on the verges.
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