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Surely with the number of extremists in this country we are now a ticking bomb waiting for the next major incident. I would have though the mentalists would enjoy uber kudos if they could strike on UK soil again.
Im normally pretty relaxed about this kind of stuff but watching the images on the news at ten makes the spine chill.
Those poor folks in Tunisia
Im normally pretty relaxed about this kind of stuff but watching the images on the news at ten makes the spine chill.
Those poor folks in Tunisia
4
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Yes it is a matter of time but hardly worth worrying about compared to crossing the road, driving to work, climbing a route or getting stabed in a brawl.
Yes it is a matter of time but hardly worth worrying about compared to crossing the road, driving to work, climbing a route or getting stabed in a brawl.
10
2
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
It's always been a matter of time though, Its more dangerous now because these guys are much more willing to die, but back when we wee young we lived with the fairly real fear of nuclear war and also irish terrorism. In sheffield there was always a fear about an IRA attack at Meadowhall. I remember there once was a rumour that the place was stacking up on body bags the threat was that real and people avoided the place, as it was it was supposedly Marks and Spencers suit bags....
It does worry me though, flying transatlantic often, it would be a major coup for a plane to be lost.. but I think the actual risk is so low to not overly change my behaviour.
It's always been a matter of time though, Its more dangerous now because these guys are much more willing to die, but back when we wee young we lived with the fairly real fear of nuclear war and also irish terrorism. In sheffield there was always a fear about an IRA attack at Meadowhall. I remember there once was a rumour that the place was stacking up on body bags the threat was that real and people avoided the place, as it was it was supposedly Marks and Spencers suit bags....
It does worry me though, flying transatlantic often, it would be a major coup for a plane to be lost.. but I think the actual risk is so low to not overly change my behaviour.
4
1
In reply to Roadrunner5:
"It does worry me though, flying transatlantic often, it would be a major coup for a plane to be lost.. but I think the actual risk is so low to not overly change my behaviour."
I landed in Dubai last week on a packed Qantas A380. I had the sky cam on for landing and it did cross my mind that all the sandy buildings we were flying over a few miles out of the airport on approach would be perfect for a nutter to hide in and use an RPG to try and bring a big plane down. Pretty irrational fear as hundreds of A380s move through Dubai weekly packed with westerners .Just one of those "I am mortal" moments that I often get when flying that I don't get when driving
"It does worry me though, flying transatlantic often, it would be a major coup for a plane to be lost.. but I think the actual risk is so low to not overly change my behaviour."
I landed in Dubai last week on a packed Qantas A380. I had the sky cam on for landing and it did cross my mind that all the sandy buildings we were flying over a few miles out of the airport on approach would be perfect for a nutter to hide in and use an RPG to try and bring a big plane down. Pretty irrational fear as hundreds of A380s move through Dubai weekly packed with westerners .Just one of those "I am mortal" moments that I often get when flying that I don't get when driving
2
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
There are so many opportunities; I'm amazed that terrorists so lack imagination and knowledge about the habits of the British at play. How about Wimbledon? Any football match? The Proms or any event at a local venue? At the time of the IRA people were watchful but nowadays most are too absorbed in their cellphones to notice an abandoned package or somebody acting strangely.
There are so many opportunities; I'm amazed that terrorists so lack imagination and knowledge about the habits of the British at play. How about Wimbledon? Any football match? The Proms or any event at a local venue? At the time of the IRA people were watchful but nowadays most are too absorbed in their cellphones to notice an abandoned package or somebody acting strangely.
4
In reply to Rigid Raider:
I have often wondered about this too. But then again, the security at these sort of events is generally pretty high and perhaps the risk of getting caught and being humiliated is a big turn off. Who knows?
> There are so many opportunities; I'm amazed that terrorists so lack imagination and knowledge about the habits of the British at play. How about Wimbledon? Any football match? The Proms or any event at a local venue? At the time of the IRA people were watchful but nowadays most are too absorbed in their cellphones to notice an abandoned package or somebody acting strangely.
I have often wondered about this too. But then again, the security at these sort of events is generally pretty high and perhaps the risk of getting caught and being humiliated is a big turn off. Who knows?
In reply to Roadrunner5:
A slightly interesting perspective on the IRA threat: I remember I was heading into Manchester on a citylink (or equivalent back then, in 1996) bus for a connection onwards to Glasgow. That day the bomb went off in the Arndale shopping centre. Our bus was rerouted from the city centre and the change over took place at a temp centre with armed police everywhere. I remember the news hitting the bus and the rumours starting. I kept my mouth shut, being Irish. I didn't want to take any flak for something I did not support and had no part in. Once off the bus I had to get directions from some police and was relieved that there was no special treatment because of my accent.
I always try to keep this in mind after these atrocities.
A slightly interesting perspective on the IRA threat: I remember I was heading into Manchester on a citylink (or equivalent back then, in 1996) bus for a connection onwards to Glasgow. That day the bomb went off in the Arndale shopping centre. Our bus was rerouted from the city centre and the change over took place at a temp centre with armed police everywhere. I remember the news hitting the bus and the rumours starting. I kept my mouth shut, being Irish. I didn't want to take any flak for something I did not support and had no part in. Once off the bus I had to get directions from some police and was relieved that there was no special treatment because of my accent.
I always try to keep this in mind after these atrocities.
3
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Someone, I think it was an Australian researcher, did some calculations about terror attacks and came to an average death toll per successful attack of 4 (this included the Twin Towers attacks).
Some (US biased from this site http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-terrorism-statistics-every-american-needs-... ) figures from 2011:
Number of American civilians who died worldwide in terrorist attacks last year: 8 — Minimum number who died after being struck by lightning: 29.
That means that you are 5,882 times more likely to die from medical error than terrorism.
Perhaps the point of terrorism is to create terror not to actually kill.
Someone, I think it was an Australian researcher, did some calculations about terror attacks and came to an average death toll per successful attack of 4 (this included the Twin Towers attacks).
Some (US biased from this site http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-terrorism-statistics-every-american-needs-... ) figures from 2011:
Number of American civilians who died worldwide in terrorist attacks last year: 8 — Minimum number who died after being struck by lightning: 29.
That means that you are 5,882 times more likely to die from medical error than terrorism.
Perhaps the point of terrorism is to create terror not to actually kill.
5
1
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
Good article in the Independant today sarcastically praising this Warrior of Allah for his bravery in attacking a beach full of mainly pensioners, (obviously children of Satan who were revelling in the decadence of relaxing) probably one of the softest and most vunerable targets he could have chosen.
Pity the Tunisian police shot him, it would have been far better if he had been taken alive and faced trial and world wide condemnation for his cowardice.
Good article in the Independant today sarcastically praising this Warrior of Allah for his bravery in attacking a beach full of mainly pensioners, (obviously children of Satan who were revelling in the decadence of relaxing) probably one of the softest and most vunerable targets he could have chosen.
Pity the Tunisian police shot him, it would have been far better if he had been taken alive and faced trial and world wide condemnation for his cowardice.
1
In reply to Bob:
>Perhaps the point of terrorism is to create terror not to actually kill.
I agree with you there. They can influence the powers that be and get a stronger hand in any negotiations.
But, there are a lot of others with a vested interest in terrorism and increasing the paranoia.
The media and 'if it bleeds it leads' mentality.
The security services get new toys, more cash new laws.
The military suppliers get more orders for their new toys.
Politicians, get to show how tough on terror they really are.
There are entire industries, that seem to be dependent on there being a war, threat of war or terrorist threat.
From the link you pasted above, regarding 4 deaths per attack, and the actual cost.
"... there is no reason to anticipate that the measures have deterred, foiled or protected against massive casualties in the United States. If the domestic (we leave out overseas) enhanced security measures put into place after 9/11 have saved 100 lives per year in the United States, they would have done so at a cost of $1 billion per saved life. That same money, if invested in a measure that saves lives at a cost of $1 million each—like passive restraints for buses and trucks—would have saved 1,000 times more lives."
Whilst we can't put a price on a human life, its a nice little earner for a lot of people.
>Perhaps the point of terrorism is to create terror not to actually kill.
I agree with you there. They can influence the powers that be and get a stronger hand in any negotiations.
But, there are a lot of others with a vested interest in terrorism and increasing the paranoia.
The media and 'if it bleeds it leads' mentality.
The security services get new toys, more cash new laws.
The military suppliers get more orders for their new toys.
Politicians, get to show how tough on terror they really are.
There are entire industries, that seem to be dependent on there being a war, threat of war or terrorist threat.
From the link you pasted above, regarding 4 deaths per attack, and the actual cost.
"... there is no reason to anticipate that the measures have deterred, foiled or protected against massive casualties in the United States. If the domestic (we leave out overseas) enhanced security measures put into place after 9/11 have saved 100 lives per year in the United States, they would have done so at a cost of $1 billion per saved life. That same money, if invested in a measure that saves lives at a cost of $1 million each—like passive restraints for buses and trucks—would have saved 1,000 times more lives."
Whilst we can't put a price on a human life, its a nice little earner for a lot of people.
4
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Maybe,maybe not....with time,probably. At least there are a lot of people busting their nuts to prevent this and plenty of plots do get prevented....but not all are reported!
Maybe,maybe not....with time,probably. At least there are a lot of people busting their nuts to prevent this and plenty of plots do get prevented....but not all are reported!
1
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
I always thought that a SAM missile of the back of a pick up just outside heathrow would've been a 'good' idea,
or bringing several chaps with AK's into Glastonbury or Leeds festival, you could attack on the camp sites at night, dump the guns when through with the ammo and walk out
I do think that the terrorists will want to attack the UK again, I just hope that the secret services are up to the task of stopping this sort of thing happening before it does.
I am also appalled by the cowardice of the last attack and applaud the Muslim community in Tunisia for condemning the attack and also trying to protect the tourists, I think it shows that its just a few bad eggs.
I always thought that a SAM missile of the back of a pick up just outside heathrow would've been a 'good' idea,
or bringing several chaps with AK's into Glastonbury or Leeds festival, you could attack on the camp sites at night, dump the guns when through with the ammo and walk out
I do think that the terrorists will want to attack the UK again, I just hope that the secret services are up to the task of stopping this sort of thing happening before it does.
I am also appalled by the cowardice of the last attack and applaud the Muslim community in Tunisia for condemning the attack and also trying to protect the tourists, I think it shows that its just a few bad eggs.
In reply to Bob:
That's exactly the point.
People in general are pretty terrible at assessing where the real risks to life an limb come from. The psychology of fear and a mass media obsessing over terrorist threats drive such misconceptions (i.e. no-one is terrified of cars, or eating too much fat, but a pic of Jihadi John and we brick ourselves).
> Perhaps the point of terrorism is to create terror not to actually kill.
That's exactly the point.
People in general are pretty terrible at assessing where the real risks to life an limb come from. The psychology of fear and a mass media obsessing over terrorist threats drive such misconceptions (i.e. no-one is terrified of cars, or eating too much fat, but a pic of Jihadi John and we brick ourselves).
In reply to Phil79:
Agreed, terrorists don't scare me. They can all go and f*ck themselves.
As pointed out by many others, there is a whole multitude of other ways, at MUCH higher chance, that I'm going to get killed/die.
Agreed, terrorists don't scare me. They can all go and f*ck themselves.
As pointed out by many others, there is a whole multitude of other ways, at MUCH higher chance, that I'm going to get killed/die.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
About 4 plots per year are averted according to Theresa May.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-says-around-forty-major-468794...
About 4 plots per year are averted according to Theresa May.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/theresa-says-around-forty-major-468794...
In reply to elsewhere:
All of which are likely to have been discovered and investigated as a result of "intelligence" rather than military might.
The perception thing is interesting: during the thirty years of The Troubles in Northern Ireland I seem to remember reading that not one tourist had been killed - of course the tourist trade will have been somewhat quiet during that time. Some 3600 people were killed which for a small province is actually a large number but this is over the whole period and is roughly 120 per annum out of a population of around 1.7 million and around half of these were civilians. To put this in to context, the homicide rate in Philadelphia, pop. 1.5m, is around 300 per annum. One was a civil war, the other is a modern city, which is perceived as riskier?
Those are the raw figures but it's likely that a lot of the deaths in Philadelphia are drug/gang related, so unless you are part of that culture then the risk is a lot less. The Republican and Nationalist paramilitaries were essentially gangs and in the latter years of the conflict they were less political and moved in to organised crime to fund their activities so not too different.
> About 4 plots per year are averted according to Theresa May.
All of which are likely to have been discovered and investigated as a result of "intelligence" rather than military might.
The perception thing is interesting: during the thirty years of The Troubles in Northern Ireland I seem to remember reading that not one tourist had been killed - of course the tourist trade will have been somewhat quiet during that time. Some 3600 people were killed which for a small province is actually a large number but this is over the whole period and is roughly 120 per annum out of a population of around 1.7 million and around half of these were civilians. To put this in to context, the homicide rate in Philadelphia, pop. 1.5m, is around 300 per annum. One was a civil war, the other is a modern city, which is perceived as riskier?
Those are the raw figures but it's likely that a lot of the deaths in Philadelphia are drug/gang related, so unless you are part of that culture then the risk is a lot less. The Republican and Nationalist paramilitaries were essentially gangs and in the latter years of the conflict they were less political and moved in to organised crime to fund their activities so not too different.
In reply to Bob:
Your choice of comparison is flawed, the populations are similar but Philadelphia has that population in under 400 square kms whereas in NI it is in 13800 square kms. Belfast would be a better comparison to Philadelphia although still not perfect as in Philadelphia the attacks will mostly be targeted close range shootings with a high chance of killing, a bomb on the other hand will usually injure many more than it kills so overall the chance of having your life severely affected in Belfast may well have been much higher compared to present day Philadelphia.
I haven't looked at the numbers involved in detail though so possibly I have missed something out.
Also I grew up in north Belfast during the troubles so I may be a bit jaded on the whole terrorism thing but in my view people should just get on with their lives and not let their plans or actions be curtailed by what might happen, I know it's cliché but that is when the terrorists get their way.
Your choice of comparison is flawed, the populations are similar but Philadelphia has that population in under 400 square kms whereas in NI it is in 13800 square kms. Belfast would be a better comparison to Philadelphia although still not perfect as in Philadelphia the attacks will mostly be targeted close range shootings with a high chance of killing, a bomb on the other hand will usually injure many more than it kills so overall the chance of having your life severely affected in Belfast may well have been much higher compared to present day Philadelphia.
I haven't looked at the numbers involved in detail though so possibly I have missed something out.
Also I grew up in north Belfast during the troubles so I may be a bit jaded on the whole terrorism thing but in my view people should just get on with their lives and not let their plans or actions be curtailed by what might happen, I know it's cliché but that is when the terrorists get their way.
1
In reply to ajsteele:
More than likely but the point wasn't about the effect of population density on murder rates but about the perceived risk of murder not by those living within those populations but by those outside them. Any city will have its "safe" and its "rough" areas that the locals know about, usually tourists or others from away from the area would be unlikely to visit the latter.
There are breakdowns of the means of murder for The Troubles but I didn't look at them beyond the civilian/paramilitary/security fatality split.
I am probably more likely to be run over by a vehicle whose driver has had a heart attack than by a terrorist bomb. I don't worry about either TBH.
A somewhat dark subject.
More than likely but the point wasn't about the effect of population density on murder rates but about the perceived risk of murder not by those living within those populations but by those outside them. Any city will have its "safe" and its "rough" areas that the locals know about, usually tourists or others from away from the area would be unlikely to visit the latter.
There are breakdowns of the means of murder for The Troubles but I didn't look at them beyond the civilian/paramilitary/security fatality split.
I am probably more likely to be run over by a vehicle whose driver has had a heart attack than by a terrorist bomb. I don't worry about either TBH.
A somewhat dark subject.
In reply to robal:
Having sat in traffic jams on the M25 near Heathrow and seen the planes overhead it does seem a rather easy target if they ever managed to get hold of SAMs in this country.
> I always thought that a SAM missile of the back of a pick up just outside heathrow would've been a 'good' idea,
Having sat in traffic jams on the M25 near Heathrow and seen the planes overhead it does seem a rather easy target if they ever managed to get hold of SAMs in this country.
1
In reply to GrahamD:
Would you notice the difference? I aint into conspiracy theories about government cover ups but the M25 seems ideally suited to the job.
> Surely the M25 its self is an easier and equally effective target ?
Would you notice the difference? I aint into conspiracy theories about government cover ups but the M25 seems ideally suited to the job.
1
In reply to dissonance:
Some civilian airlines have countermeasure for defending against shoulder launched SAMs. Not much information on who is actually doing it (not many beyond El Al?) and what they are, but it shows how credible the threat is in parts of the world.
Not forgetting the venerable old RPG - these have been used within the UK before [1] and would not be much fun for an aircraft on final approach or takeoff.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_MI6_attack
> Having sat in traffic jams on the M25 near Heathrow and seen the planes overhead it does seem a rather easy target if they ever managed to get hold of SAMs in this country.
Some civilian airlines have countermeasure for defending against shoulder launched SAMs. Not much information on who is actually doing it (not many beyond El Al?) and what they are, but it shows how credible the threat is in parts of the world.
Not forgetting the venerable old RPG - these have been used within the UK before [1] and would not be much fun for an aircraft on final approach or takeoff.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_MI6_attack
In reply to Bob:
Unfortunately the IRA couldn't spot a tourist if they fell over one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Nick_Spanos_and_Stephen_Melrose
Unfortunately the IRA couldn't spot a tourist if they fell over one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killings_of_Nick_Spanos_and_Stephen_Melrose
In reply to GrahamD:
Surely the M25 its self is an easier and equally effective target ??
What exactly is your proposed attack on the M25?
Surely the M25 its self is an easier and equally effective target ??
What exactly is your proposed attack on the M25?
In reply to FactorXXX:
A car bomb or two in the middle of a stationary traffic jam might be quite effective. They wouldn't have to be suicide attacks either
A car bomb or two in the middle of a stationary traffic jam might be quite effective. They wouldn't have to be suicide attacks either
In reply to GrahamD:
There I was in Cotswold in Manchester last week. When 4 Muslim guys ( in suitable attire) walked in and started looking at rucsacs, they then spoke with broad Bolton accents, taking the mickey out of each other and were incredibly friendly.
You do become paranoid and wary over these things. Shame on me I thought...
There I was in Cotswold in Manchester last week. When 4 Muslim guys ( in suitable attire) walked in and started looking at rucsacs, they then spoke with broad Bolton accents, taking the mickey out of each other and were incredibly friendly.
You do become paranoid and wary over these things. Shame on me I thought...
1
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Probably, but the risk to the individual is much lower than every time you step out of the house and become a road user (in any form). Terrorism brings on great fear of what is a relatively low risk - that's how it works.
Neil
Probably, but the risk to the individual is much lower than every time you step out of the house and become a road user (in any form). Terrorism brings on great fear of what is a relatively low risk - that's how it works.
Neil
In reply to elsewhere:
Just pondering ...
I wonder if some of the ideas posted in this thread count as a plot?
How far does an idle conversation have to go, before it becomes a plot? Do the posters have access to SAM's, probably not. Do they have access to the M25, yes. Do they have access to vehicles, probably. So they have a plan, and some of the means to carry it out.
Ms May will enjoy banging up these dangerous individuals. Before their sentence ends, the US will probably try and extradite them.
Slippery slopes, and all that.
Just pondering ...
I wonder if some of the ideas posted in this thread count as a plot?
How far does an idle conversation have to go, before it becomes a plot? Do the posters have access to SAM's, probably not. Do they have access to the M25, yes. Do they have access to vehicles, probably. So they have a plan, and some of the means to carry it out.
Ms May will enjoy banging up these dangerous individuals. Before their sentence ends, the US will probably try and extradite them.
Slippery slopes, and all that.
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
Much could be said of a lot of Airports.
Glasgow has a number of vantage points oft used by Plane spotters pointing cameras at them, could as easily be a RPG.
> (In reply to Roadrunner5)
>
>
> I landed in Dubai last week on a packed Qantas A380. I had the sky cam on for landing and it did cross my mind that all the sandy buildings we were flying over a few miles out of the airport on approach would be perfect for a nutter to hide in and use an RPG to try and bring a big plane down.
>
>
> I landed in Dubai last week on a packed Qantas A380. I had the sky cam on for landing and it did cross my mind that all the sandy buildings we were flying over a few miles out of the airport on approach would be perfect for a nutter to hide in and use an RPG to try and bring a big plane down.
Much could be said of a lot of Airports.
Glasgow has a number of vantage points oft used by Plane spotters pointing cameras at them, could as easily be a RPG.
In reply to neilh:
Indeed, the guys that attacked Glasgow Airport a few years back were doctors at a local hospital, and dressed in Western attire
> (In reply to GrahamD)
>
> There I was in Cotswold in Manchester last week. When 4 Muslim guys ( in suitable attire) walked in and started looking at rucsacs, they then spoke with broad Bolton accents, taking the mickey out of each other and were incredibly friendly.
>
> You do become paranoid and wary over these things. Shame on me I thought...
>
> There I was in Cotswold in Manchester last week. When 4 Muslim guys ( in suitable attire) walked in and started looking at rucsacs, they then spoke with broad Bolton accents, taking the mickey out of each other and were incredibly friendly.
>
> You do become paranoid and wary over these things. Shame on me I thought...
Indeed, the guys that attacked Glasgow Airport a few years back were doctors at a local hospital, and dressed in Western attire
1
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
This latest one in Edinburgh, was only a stones throw from you?! Another 'doctor type' with a bomb making kit, in a tower block Ffs!
http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/syrian-doctor-had-bomb-mater...
> Maybe,maybe not....with time,probably. At least there are a lot of people busting their nuts to prevent this and plenty of plots do get prevented....but not all are reported!
This latest one in Edinburgh, was only a stones throw from you?! Another 'doctor type' with a bomb making kit, in a tower block Ffs!
http://m.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/syrian-doctor-had-bomb-mater...
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