UKC

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/florida-teacher-sentenced-...

22 years seems rather harsh.

I struggle to understand the American judicial system.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:


Would you have said that if it had been a male teacher and female students? Or a male teacher and male students?

In reply to Yanis Nayu:


Ordeals, eh?

In reply to Yanis Nayu:
the teacher was not related to Dupont then !
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/02/justice/delaware-du-pont-rape-case/

In reply to gd303uk:

Indeed not. If I were in charge, I would be tempted to swap those two sentences, but hey, what do I know...

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Very harsh bearing in mind that if it had been in the UK she would have walked free as our age of consent is 16.

I find it hard to believe that 17 year olds are innocent "victims" unless they have a learning difficulty or similar.

In reply to Andy Morley:


Is that relevant? It wasn't.

In reply to Trangia:



I think it's 18 where there is a power relationship, like pupil teacher.

In reply to Trangia:


Not for a teacher/student relationship it's 18

Edit looks like someone bet me to that,must remember to read all the comments before posting

In reply to Wsdconst:




15 years in a correctional for that! (Unless you're rich and powerful of course...)

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

It's really harsh, she obviously has issues but they're more likely either loneliness or hornyness I wouldn't call her a paedo. There was I teacher at my school who married an ex pupil.there relationship came to light about a week after she left sixth form ,but he was never investigated.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I'm very rich and powerful, well except the rich bit or the powerful bit for that matter.looks like I'm off to wormwood scrubs for abit.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

>> Would you have said that if it had been a male teacher and female students? Or a male teacher and male students?

It's only irrelevant if you're happy with double standards. It was a very straightforward question and the fact that you avoided answering it makes me wonder whether that might not be the case.

In reply to Andy Morley:

Everyone has double standards.if this happened to your daughter you'd be straight down the school with a blow torch and a pair of pliers,but if it was your son it'd be high fives and a pint at the pub.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:



So do I, but considering the way some of them think over there it could have been the abortion that got her the 22 years.

In reply to Andy Morley:

In answer to your question, yes I would say a 22 year sentence would be harsh if it was a male teacher and 17 year old female students who actually, if not legally, consented.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:
I think one version of the story says she carried on while on bail. Nosedive karma.


eta, No that was Brianne Altice, she got 2 to 30 years.

In reply to Wsdconst:


Speak for yourself. Yes, lots of people have double standards, you included from the sound of it, but do the rest of us want your double standards built into the laws of the countries we live in? Personally, I have different expectations of the legal system and private individuals - I don't like the idea of kangaroo courts, or jack-the-lad legislation.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:


From what I read, the American judicial system and law enforcement in general is harsh, verging on barbaric, across the board, not just in matters like this one. You may be surprised at this; I'm not.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I just read somewhere that the US had 5 per cent of the world's population, but 25 per cent of the world's prisoners. It's partly the "war on drugs" that totally screws their whole approach to prison.

Given that the "victims" were 17, a sentence of 22 years is just ridiculous.

In reply to Andy Morley:

Like I said everyone (including you) has double standards. think about it,do you piss outside when at the crag ? Now if you saw someone pissing in the middle of town you'd be disgusted. there double standards my friend. although the situation is different the action is exactly the same,urinating in a public place.

In reply to Wsdconst:


I'm not disagreeing with you. But I am asking you whether double standards are something that you'd like to see more of or less of? Do you think that it's OK for the State to apply double standards, just because individuals do? Is that what you personally would want from the UK government?

In reply to Andy Morley:


There are obvious and big differences between male and female sexuality. It isn't "double standards" to take that fact into account.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


That's true to a point, but there are also big differences in sexuality amongst men, and equally amongst women. Not all men are the same. Not all women are the same. Some men fancy other men (gasp!). Some women fancy other women (shock, horror!). Some people (of whatever gender) are not much interested in having sex. Others like it a lot.

But with all that human sexual complexity, it seems like you are advocating one law for males and another law for females. Isn't that turning the clock back a bit?

In reply to Andy Morley:

What really matters is to what extent the teacher was being exploitative. I suspect that, in the absence of other information on cases, male teacher with female victim is more likely to be exploitative than female teacher with male victim, though, of course, either could be.

In reply to Robert Durran:


But then if you're considering the facts of the individual case, namely how exploitative one individual was being of another, why do you need to account for generalisations like gender? Gender norms are derived from other people, at a general level, and not from the individual case under consideration, which seems to be what you are suggesting justice should focus on. There's a contradiction there - I think your logic is flawed.

In reply to Andy Morley:


No, I was simply trying to explain why some peoples' immediate reaction might be based on gender norms rather than the particular case - I agree with you. Sorry if that was not clear.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

I would be interested to know if the young men (victims) feel this is an appropriate sentence.

In reply to Andy Morley:

No I don't think it's right,as a man I want to be treated equally,unfortunately when it comes to sexual crimes we are far from equal.take two drunk people, they have sex,no one is in a fit state to consent,shes not gonna go to jail for rape,but he might.i think because men are seen as the stronger sex no one takes a rape allegation seriouswhich is wrong.

In reply to tmawer:

It depends I imagine on how long and how effectively they've been conditioned to see themselves as victims. If I had been one of the 'victims' I think I would feel bad about it. I didn't have the misfortune of shagging one of my 30 year old teachers when I was 17, no matter how much I fantasised about it.

In reply to Wsdconst:


If you're talking about how people at large see things, you may be right. But when it comes to formal justice, if a fit, strong, 12-stone, 6', 30-year-old woman regularly attacked and beat up her 5'6" 9 stone male partner, it would make no sense for the law to treat her more favourably because of popular gender stereotypes. I would hope that in Britain, the law would not behave in that way but would send her to jail for as long a time as they would the equivalent male perpetrator of domestic violence.

However, there is a case to treat people differently on the basis of age - minors and school-age children are usually seen as deserving different consideration from adults, rightly so in most people's opinion. If you accept the principle that physical abuse should not be treated differently in law depending on the gender of the perpetrator when it comes to adults, why should sexual abuse by a woman be treated more leniently when the victim is a child? I accept that individuals have all kinds of illogical prejudices about things like that but I can see no reason at all why the law should reflect those prejudices.

In reply to jon:

I understand from psychologists that it's not always the school boys dream that it can be portrayed as.

I'm guessing that a harsh(er) sentence is given with taking that into account in mind?

It could seem harsh compared to sentences for murderers though...

In reply to Timmd:

Someone killed my cousin in a hit and run.

The offender took a family member's car without asking (apparently), overtook a bus at traffic lights (the lights were red) and knocked him down whilst he was crossing the road. He fled the scene but later gave himself in (presumably he was drunk or under the influence of something.

He got 4 years. This is madness.

In reply to cha1n:
You're right it is. I'm sorry for your loss (in such a way as that).

In reply to Timmd:



No, of course not. Psychologists, eh?


COULD?

In reply to jon:


I don't know what you mean by that?

In reply to Timmd:

I mean that only some wishy washy psychologist could deduce that a testoterone driven 17 year old couldn't possibly enjoy shagging his brains out with his hot teacher that he's been fantasizing about for months. Scarred for life, I'd imagine...

In reply to jon:


If you think that all 17-year-old males are the same, then you don't know anything about teenagers and you probably don't understand people either.

In reply to Andy Morley:

Clearly your teenage years were very different to mine then

In reply to jon:


Probably were. I found some of my own sexual encounters pretty traumatic, largely to do with the reactions of adults when they found out - which tended to be when I was younger, or through fear of being found out, which was later on, or more generalised confusion about it when I was older still.

Religion certainly has a lot to answer for in that, but generally, my experience is that whenever adults, particularly teachers, get involved with perfectly natural sexual interactions between younger people, the agendas that the adults have tend to rebound on the children. It's bad enough when that's about adults trying to impose their idea of sexual morality, but when the adult is using a younger person to fulfil their own sexual desires, that has the potential to be a bit of a nightmare for the young person involved. It's not 'wishy-washy psychologists' saying that - I can't remember which rock-star was talking recently about loosing his virginity to an older, adult, woman when he was 14, but that sounded pretty traumatic and other people I've talked to have had similar experiences.

In reply to jon:

Boys who are in their earlier teens are who I had in mind.

In reply to Andy Morley:


Surely if your a 17 year old male and you don't want to do it, you don't go along with it?

In reply to Andy Morley:


Maybe Rod Stewart and Maggie May? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ndj6xn2P0c#action=share Didn't sound too traumatic to me!

In reply to jonathan shepherd:

Could that perhaps depend on the personality of the 17 year old, when it comes to being propositioned by their teacher?

In reply to Andy Morley:


It's not a question of prejudice, no matter how many times you try to claim that it is.

In the UK the law makes a distinction between penetrative and non-penetrative sexual assault, this is likely to disproportionately affect males but not always so.

The reason for this is that if you were tied up by Rachael Riley and she offered you a choice of either (a) accept a blow job from me or (b) allow me to anally rape you with this 12" broom handle, most guys would reluctantly take the blowie as the lesser of 2 evils.

In reply to Timmd:
Yes it could, that's kind of my point, if you're of the personality that wants it you'll do it and if you're not you won't.

In reply to jonathan shepherd:


You could say the same about a 14-year old or a 12-year old. But there has to be a cut-off at some stage, unless you're of the school of thought that says that sex between adults and children is OK. Normally, it's 16 in this country, 15 in France but where schools are involved, it's while the child is still at school, in this country at any rate and in the States too from the sound of it.

In reply to jonathan shepherd:


You're missing my point, in that there's a power imbalance when one is a teacher.

In reply to jonathan shepherd:

I can't comment on the Florida situation having no experience of the area. There has however recently been a similar case in Utah, an area in which I have spent a lot of time. The simplest way I can put it is that teenagers there are most often nowhere near as 'worldly' as we might expect a British or European kid to be by that age. I could see that they might potentially be easy prey for a predatory and manipulative teacher. Lots of pockets of the US are very, very, conservative by our standards. Some of my friends have stories about growing up completely clueless regarding sexual courtship well past the usual teenage awkwardness. Once they moved away from such communities their stories are often similar, they usually seem to be some years behind the norm in becoming sexually active on their own terms.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

It's the privatisation of the prisons in USA that motivates sending so many ( poorer people) to them.

In reply to ultrabumbly:


On that subject:

The Sheep Child (BY JAMES L. DICKEY)

Farm boys wild to couple
With anything  with soft-wooded trees   
With mounds of earth mounds   
Of pinestraw will keep themselves off   
Animals by legends of their own:   
In the hay-tunnel dark
And dung of barns, they will   
Say  I have heard tell

That in a museum in Atlanta   
Way back in a corner somewhere   
There’s this thing that’s only half   
Sheep like a woolly baby
Pickled in alcohol  because   
Those things can’t live. his eyes
Are open but you can’t stand to look   
I heard from somebody who ...

But this is now almost all   
Gone. The boys have taken   
Their own true wives in the city,
The sheep are safe in the west hill
Pasture but we who were born there
Still are not sure. Are we,
Because we remember, remembered
In the terrible dust of museums?

Merely with his eyes, the sheep-child may   

Be saying saying

         I am here, in my father’s house.
         I who am half of your world, came deeply
         To my mother in the long grass
         Of the west pasture, where she stood like moonlight
         Listening for foxes. It was something like love
         From another world that seized her
         From behind, and she gave, not lifting her head   
         Out of dew, without ever looking, her best
         Self to that great need. Turned loose, she dipped her face   
         Farther into the chill of the earth, and in a sound   
         Of sobbing of something stumbling
         Away, began, as she must do,
         To carry me. I woke, dying,

         In the summer sun of the hillside, with my eyes
         Far more than human. I saw for a blazing moment   
         The great grassy world from both sides,
         Man and beast in the round of their need,
         And the hill wind stirred in my wool,
         My hoof and my hand clasped each other,
         I ate my one meal
         Of milk, and died
         Staring. From dark grass I came straight
         
         To my father’s house, whose dust
         Whirls up in the halls for no reason
         When no one comes piling deep in a hellish mild corner,   
         And, through my immortal waters,
         I meet the sun’s grains eye
         To eye, and they fail at my closet of glass.
         Dead, I am most surely living
         In the minds of farm boys: I am he who drives
         Them like wolves from the hound bitch and calf
         And from the chaste ewe in the wind.
         They go into woods into bean fields      they go
         Deep into their known right hands. Dreaming of me,   
         They groan they wait they suffer
         Themselves, they marry, they raise their kind.

In reply to Andy Morley:

You know it's time to leave when someone gets the poetry out,right I'm off, TAXI !!