UKC

Was fancying a go at Giddy Variations on a Theme on a recent trip to the slate, but my discretion outmuscled my valour (admittedly not difficult) and I settled for Pandora Plays Sax instead (good route, by the way). Anyway, one of the things that put me off Giddy was the description of the gear (or lack of it) on Pitch 1, specifically "a folded over Rock 7" in a shothole. How does this work? Does the nut have to be on wire or cord? Do these things hold falls or are they purely cosmetic (like most of the gear on Pandora)?

Cheers.

In reply to edwardwoodward:

Not sure, but wonder if it is supposed to work like a tri-cam?

In reply to edwardwoodward:

Yep, does work like a tricam. Works with rocks on wire. Fold the wire into a 180 degree bend just above the nut. Push the folded nut into shot hole. The idea is that if you fall off, the nut cams into the sides of the hole. Disclaimer 1.. I have never fallen on one, and don't know if it would hold. Disclaimer 2... even if it did hold when you fell on it, you'd probably have to bin it afterwards 'cos the wire would be a bit stuffed (tech term..).
However, as someone once said "'owt's better than nowt in a crisis"

Paul

In reply to Paul Evans:

Thanks.
So presumably it doesn't matter if the wire is in flat or side-on - that depends on the shape of the hole.


-->However, as someone once said "'owt's better than nowt in a crisis"

Indeed, sometimes it's just nice to have something to look at, even if it wouldn't hold a falling gnat. One of the RPs I had in Pandora was like that. I was surprised it was still in when my partner got to it.

In reply to edwardwoodward:

They are bomber but take time to seat them, the only way to take them out is the push them

This was the gear on Masters edge for years and was fine

In reply to ashtond6:


Didn't Ron Fawcett use cams on the first ascent?

In reply to edwardwoodward:

So what's the best way to align it? Convex surface facing up or down? Curious as I've never heard of this before.

In reply to ashtond6:

It may well be bomber but there has been better protection available for decades. I've used shot hole protection with bigger nuts but it takes a bit of practice and can be hard to get them straight again, which makes normal use afterwards less convenient. If you lack specialist gear its better to save and use a special nut(s) for this.

If I'm facing a pocket protecting a bold hard section where I have left the tricams or narrow head cams behind I'll still fold a nut at the risk of damaging it but on a route with known shotholes Ill take the gear for that purpose.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

This was what I thought too - tricams - the ones on tape, not the mechanical ones.

edit:
like these:
http://www.rockrun.com/camp-tri-cam-dyneema-set

In reply to Morty:


I was just trying to remember what he said in the Onsight film, can't remember exactly.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


I thought it was something esoteric like an Amigo? Since I was never going to need to know I can't say I took much notice

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

According to this later report http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=34609 a Tri-cam and an Alien.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

As sad as this is to admit, whilst googling I came across this fascinating article about the development of camming protection.
http://needlesports.com/NeedleSports/nutsmuseum/camsstory.htm

I need to get out more...

In reply to edwardwoodward:

Sounds like a job for one if those Kouba tricams on wire.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Was definitely an Amigo which was a strange and large slider nut.

In 1983, in Germany, Edelrid produced the Amigo, in two sizes, which worked on the same principle of a wedge sliding on another. Designed for medium cracks, 36 to 52 mm, one needed a third hand to place them, that brushed aside quite a number of potential users living on our planet.

This is from the needlesports site, pictures there too.

James

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

yep but its well known you can use wires

check grit list, the description of edge lane next door:

'The democratic process works: this is no longer in the SAFE catagory. Straightforward climbing with inverted Rock 8/9 (on cord) to protect upper section. Thought by some to be low in the grade though others feel its 'ard... Best climbed ground-up over a lifetime.'

I'd personally go for doubling up if I had the option, a wire & a black mastercam - generally its obvious which routes have shot holes so as Offwidth says, ill always take a big wire & the mastercam

In reply to edwardwoodward:

Thanks for the answers. I'll look at borrowing someone's tri-cams so I've got the option of either. Never trusted tri-cams, though...

In reply to edwardwoodward:

Just had the pleasure of removing a folded wire this evening. I would have happily fallen on it all day long, absolutely bomber. Took alot of time and alot of swearing to get it out. Impressed

I've an image in my head of this placement but I can only imagine extreme damage to the wire on a fall and moderate damage even placing and tugging it snug.

Can anyone link to an image?

In reply to Cheese Monkey:

Ta. Now this is what I like to read.

I don't mind damaging the wire, as long as it holds, or looks like it's going to hold.

In reply to edwardwoodward:

Probably worth adding that when Wolfgang Gullich wanted to try Master's Edge he didn't have any tricams. Someone suggested the folded nut trick, when he fell it ripped and he broke his back. A tricam 2.5 is actually bomber and costs about £20. I have fiddled about with the folded nut trick but it has never convinced me as being trustworthy at all.

Certain modern narrow cams also fit these size holes and are also trustworthy and easier to place. Big Aliens are the usual choice, but others fit too.

In reply to edwardwoodward:

I'd use a tri-cam if possible. You'd surely be left with an annoying kink in the wire if nothing else.

In reply to edwardwoodward:


They're fantastic once you're used to them
bomber.

In reply to edwardwoodward:

Just invest in narrow cams. Then you will get lots of use out if them rather than just once or twice

In reply to ashtond6:
Thanks again to all for the replies.


Apologies if I'm out of touch, but are there any cams that are narrow enough for the shotholes on slate and that would also bite?

In reply to edwardwoodward:

there are a few bigger shot holes so many not, but most shot holes (holi holi, any at millstone)

Metolious black mastercam #5 - really good general cam too (don't use it on seacliffs)

this is the cheapest:
http://www.rockrun.com/metolius-mastercams?gclid=Cj0KEQjwgLGuBRCqptLsnJCvh-...

In reply to Adam Long:
You need to bed it really firmly and use the right size. Once bedded the wires are often perma-kinked (even from practicing). Hence, it's pretty daft doing this on shotholes when much more reliably safe cams and tricams exist. It's a very occasionally useful trad trick for protecting a bold section with a pocket if nothing else you have on you fits.

Having said that, I've known tricams and cams fly out of seemingly safe placements in pockets and slots (including: my playing with tricams on Millstone shot-holes; and several times in the case of falls onto the polished Stanage Flying Buttress Direct cam slot).

In reply to ashtond6:

Thanks again.
Unfortunately I'm not living in Britain so I can't try the tips out, but I'll get something sorted so I can have a go next year.

In reply to Dell:


They are a lot harder to set one handed than the camps. I find I often need 2 hands to set them.

Al

In reply to Offwidth:

"You need to bed it really firmly and use the right size. "

Exactly. Most cams use a camming angle of around 13.75 degrees but cams have a relatively frictionless axle.

Just measured a big bro at about 8 deg, a more comparable situation.

This is possibly the optimal angle for a folded over nut so choose with care if you have time and strength.

In reply to edwardwoodward:

Well how about that!
http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/video/yuji-hirayama-vs-millstone-edge

One of each for Yuji 4 minutes in. Doesn't show him placing them, unfortunately.