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Penmaen West Quarry
Llanfair Groove (6b)
Recently I have publicised on UKC and elsewhere some new sport routes we have been doing at Penmaen West Quarry. Today at the bottom of the Middle Level of the quarry I was pleased to see fresh chalk on Penmaen Groove. It was nice to see it getting done. However I was far less pleased to find a fag packet, a sweet wrapper and a Beaumaris car park ticket left behind on the boulders at the bottom. I hope most visitors find it as special a place as I do and take their rubbish home with them. I hope I haven't started the desecration of this crag environment by informing people of the routes!
Llanfair Groove (6b)
Recently I have publicised on UKC and elsewhere some new sport routes we have been doing at Penmaen West Quarry. Today at the bottom of the Middle Level of the quarry I was pleased to see fresh chalk on Penmaen Groove. It was nice to see it getting done. However I was far less pleased to find a fag packet, a sweet wrapper and a Beaumaris car park ticket left behind on the boulders at the bottom. I hope most visitors find it as special a place as I do and take their rubbish home with them. I hope I haven't started the desecration of this crag environment by informing people of the routes!
In reply to harold walmsley:
It's getting worse. Milestone edge today had disposable bbq's left, bottles of piss and packets from food dumped around the place. A few weeks ago Lawrencefield was covered in bottles, broken chairs and crap. Not all of this stuff is climbers, probably very little but I'm sure there's pigs on the crags as well as from the more tourist crowd. You never catch them at it.
It's getting worse. Milestone edge today had disposable bbq's left, bottles of piss and packets from food dumped around the place. A few weeks ago Lawrencefield was covered in bottles, broken chairs and crap. Not all of this stuff is climbers, probably very little but I'm sure there's pigs on the crags as well as from the more tourist crowd. You never catch them at it.
3
In reply to harold walmsley:
I once watched a rather large lady eat a packet of crisps whilst I sat belaying above downhill racer, she finished her packet, screwed it up and pushed it between two rocks.
As she got up to leave with her walking group I shouted "Excuse me! You just stuffed your litter in that crack.....can you not do that please" Her group were most unhappy with her and she went a deep shade of purple as she was ordered to pick it up by her leader.
Some people just don't get it....
It's a good job I'm not in charge or there would be some Stalinist solutions to these problems.
I once watched a rather large lady eat a packet of crisps whilst I sat belaying above downhill racer, she finished her packet, screwed it up and pushed it between two rocks.
As she got up to leave with her walking group I shouted "Excuse me! You just stuffed your litter in that crack.....can you not do that please" Her group were most unhappy with her and she went a deep shade of purple as she was ordered to pick it up by her leader.
Some people just don't get it....
It's a good job I'm not in charge or there would be some Stalinist solutions to these problems.
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In reply to harold walmsley:
I managed to fill a carrier bag with rubbish that I found at New Mills Torrs last time I was there. To be fair a lot of stuff probably blows down off the bridge from the road at that crag.
I managed to fill a carrier bag with rubbish that I found at New Mills Torrs last time I was there. To be fair a lot of stuff probably blows down off the bridge from the road at that crag.
In reply to harold walmsley:
I hope most visitors find it as special a place as I do and take their rubbish home with them. I hope I haven't started the desecration of this crag environment by informing people of the routes!
At a recent BMC meeting in Borrowdale it was suggested by someone that all climbers (and walkers) should carry as routine:
1. Bin liner for rubbish.
2. Stick or scythe for cutting/beating bracken away from paths.
3. Small saw for removing trees at crag bottoms in order to prevent obstruction of sunlight.
DC.
I hope most visitors find it as special a place as I do and take their rubbish home with them. I hope I haven't started the desecration of this crag environment by informing people of the routes!
At a recent BMC meeting in Borrowdale it was suggested by someone that all climbers (and walkers) should carry as routine:
1. Bin liner for rubbish.
2. Stick or scythe for cutting/beating bracken away from paths.
3. Small saw for removing trees at crag bottoms in order to prevent obstruction of sunlight.
DC.
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1
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In reply to goose299:
Why do you think you should be paid to do this?
Who's responsibility do you think it is keep the places you want to access for your pleasure open and clear of detritus.
What are the options?
You do it
The govt does it and we all pay via general taxation
The govt (or some local QUANGO) does it and pays for it by charging users for access
Others volunteer and you reap the benefit of their hard work and goodwill
What's your preference?
Why do you think you should be paid to do this?
Who's responsibility do you think it is keep the places you want to access for your pleasure open and clear of detritus.
What are the options?
You do it
The govt does it and we all pay via general taxation
The govt (or some local QUANGO) does it and pays for it by charging users for access
Others volunteer and you reap the benefit of their hard work and goodwill
What's your preference?
5
In reply to harold walmsley:
Re: Rubbish at the crag
I know the N Wales mid grade sports routes are a bit pants, but calling them rubbish is taking it a bit far!
Re: Rubbish at the crag
I know the N Wales mid grade sports routes are a bit pants, but calling them rubbish is taking it a bit far!
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In reply to Dave Cumberland:
Although having places a little over grown has it's advantages for those who know where they are going and beat those trying to interpret the guidebooks in the jungle below tremadog, onto the routes.
Litter, it's cultural. Look at the roadside verges, a percentage of those who throw litter there, will also venture in the wild too and you can only hope they progressively learn to value the countryside and change their ways.
> At a recent BMC meeting in Borrowdale it was suggested by someone that all climbers (and walkers) should carry as routine:
or just as has been done at Tremadog, an annual work day. With free brew and cakes, as they do rather well from climbers throughout the year. Problem solved. Although having places a little over grown has it's advantages for those who know where they are going and beat those trying to interpret the guidebooks in the jungle below tremadog, onto the routes.
Litter, it's cultural. Look at the roadside verges, a percentage of those who throw litter there, will also venture in the wild too and you can only hope they progressively learn to value the countryside and change their ways.
In reply to TMM:
People doing community service orders?
And there should be a tax on cheap tents, bbqs and cans of Tennants to discourage them being left wherever.
People doing community service orders?
And there should be a tax on cheap tents, bbqs and cans of Tennants to discourage them being left wherever.
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Have you done it? Its better than pretty much any Peak F6b I can think of. Indeed most N Wales F6 sport routes are considerably better than their Eastern counterparts, just too far from Sheffield to be considered any good?
Have you done it? Its better than pretty much any Peak F6b I can think of. Indeed most N Wales F6 sport routes are considerably better than their Eastern counterparts, just too far from Sheffield to be considered any good?
Post edited at 10:33
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In reply to olddirtydoggy:
Unfortunately the litter was in boulders at the foot of the rock in a spot unlikely to be visited by anyone but climbers (there is a small amount of typical barbecue debris and a few plastic bottles in some of the more accessible parts that I would think is left by non-climbing locals). However this was clearly climbers and as the route is very new there can't have been very many there yet so the percentage of littering behaviour is worryingly high. This was the dispiriting thing. I would have expected the first few climbers to visit a recently developed area and rather wild area (in a returning to nature sense) would have been experienced, keen and relatively respectful. To find it already littered in these circumstances was really disheartening and makes me worry what it might get like once people realise the quality of the routes.
> "Not all of this stuff is climbers, probably very little"
Unfortunately the litter was in boulders at the foot of the rock in a spot unlikely to be visited by anyone but climbers (there is a small amount of typical barbecue debris and a few plastic bottles in some of the more accessible parts that I would think is left by non-climbing locals). However this was clearly climbers and as the route is very new there can't have been very many there yet so the percentage of littering behaviour is worryingly high. This was the dispiriting thing. I would have expected the first few climbers to visit a recently developed area and rather wild area (in a returning to nature sense) would have been experienced, keen and relatively respectful. To find it already littered in these circumstances was really disheartening and makes me worry what it might get like once people realise the quality of the routes.
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In reply to TMM:
Because it's pretty extreme.
I always pick up rubbish whenever I'm out regardless of whether its the crag or mountains. I've even been known to do it in the street
Carrying a scythe and small saw though is a tad excessive
Because it's pretty extreme.
I always pick up rubbish whenever I'm out regardless of whether its the crag or mountains. I've even been known to do it in the street
Carrying a scythe and small saw though is a tad excessive
In reply to harold walmsley:
Hi Harold
The smiley at the end of my post indicates some gentle leg pulling. Btw Peak middle/low grade sport is pants too
Hi Harold
> Have you done it? Its better than pretty much any Peak F6b I can think of. Indeed most N Wales F6 sport routes are considerably better than their Eastern counterparts, just too far from Sheffield to be considered any good?
The smiley at the end of my post indicates some gentle leg pulling. Btw Peak middle/low grade sport is pants too
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In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
No worries, I saw the smiley but thought I would take the bait, if only for an opportunity to say how good the routes are
No worries, I saw the smiley but thought I would take the bait, if only for an opportunity to say how good the routes are
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In reply to goose299:
That's good. A useful maxim is to always return with more rubbish than you take.
> Because it's pretty extreme.
> I always pick up rubbish whenever I'm out regardless of whether its the crag or mountains. I've even been known to do it in the street
That's good. A useful maxim is to always return with more rubbish than you take.
In reply to digby:
CSO is a red herring. The cost of administration, supervision, transportation, health and safety provision just to facilitate an unmotivated workforce makes for a very poor return on your investment.
Taxation on tat that has a higher likelihood of being dumped seems more feasible. I proposes a tax on cans of energy drinks.
> People doing community service orders?
> And there should be a tax on cheap tents, bbqs and cans of Tennants to discourage them being left wherever.
CSO is a red herring. The cost of administration, supervision, transportation, health and safety provision just to facilitate an unmotivated workforce makes for a very poor return on your investment.
Taxation on tat that has a higher likelihood of being dumped seems more feasible. I proposes a tax on cans of energy drinks.
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In reply to harold walmsley:
There is nothing you can do. People are stupid and the only solution is too pick up the rubbish yourself and just realise that some people are pigs.
There is nothing you can do. People are stupid and the only solution is too pick up the rubbish yourself and just realise that some people are pigs.
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In reply to TMM:
Or just put 10p on the price of all plastic and aluminium drinks container, refundable when recycled.
> Taxation on tat that has a higher likelihood of being dumped seems more feasible. I proposes a tax on cans of energy drinks.
Or just put 10p on the price of all plastic and aluminium drinks container, refundable when recycled.
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In reply to summo:
I honestly don't think a 10p refundable surcharge is sufficient to prevent the sort of people that throw litter on the ground to stop doing it. I think the required surcharge would be sufficient to prevent them from buying it in the first place. I'd support that, but I doubt red bull etc would do.
I honestly don't think a 10p refundable surcharge is sufficient to prevent the sort of people that throw litter on the ground to stop doing it. I think the required surcharge would be sufficient to prevent them from buying it in the first place. I'd support that, but I doubt red bull etc would do.
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In reply to summo:
No don't do this, it's stupid. They have it here in my state in the US. It's just an extra stealth tax, and can add up to $5 on a case of beer. We have recycling pick up for a reason, we recycle everything we can, we shouldn't have to make trips to the store with all our empties too. People should just take their shit home with them, end of. I don't think 10p is going to matter to these people, I think people are just getting more selfish. When I was a kid, I remember there was dog shit everywhere. Then the government and councils did a ton of education/awareness campaigns, and I hardly saw it anywhere for years. Last few years it has come back in a big way. They always had the fines, that doesn't stop people, what stops people is education/awareness and some public shaming by their peers.
> Or just put 10p on the price of all plastic and aluminium drinks container, refundable when recycled.
No don't do this, it's stupid. They have it here in my state in the US. It's just an extra stealth tax, and can add up to $5 on a case of beer. We have recycling pick up for a reason, we recycle everything we can, we shouldn't have to make trips to the store with all our empties too. People should just take their shit home with them, end of. I don't think 10p is going to matter to these people, I think people are just getting more selfish. When I was a kid, I remember there was dog shit everywhere. Then the government and councils did a ton of education/awareness campaigns, and I hardly saw it anywhere for years. Last few years it has come back in a big way. They always had the fines, that doesn't stop people, what stops people is education/awareness and some public shaming by their peers.
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In reply to NottsRich:
possibly, Norway, Sweden, Denmark have such a scheme, it's roughly 20p for large plastic bottles. Every supermarket has a machine in the foyer, it scans the bar code as you feed them in (whole, not squashed), then you get a credit note for that store. I don't think manufacturers have any choice in the matter.
> I honestly don't think a 10p refundable surcharge is sufficient to prevent the sort of people that throw litter on the ground to stop doing it.
possibly, Norway, Sweden, Denmark have such a scheme, it's roughly 20p for large plastic bottles. Every supermarket has a machine in the foyer, it scans the bar code as you feed them in (whole, not squashed), then you get a credit note for that store. I don't think manufacturers have any choice in the matter.
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In reply to dsh:
it's not a tax, you get back what you pay, it's a deposit. It's hardly onerous either, you simply carry the cans or bottles in the same bag to the shops, that you will bring your shopping home in. Zero extra journeys, zero wastage, zero litter. There is no negative side.
> No don't do this, it's stupid. They have it here in my state in the US. It's just an extra stealth tax, and can add up to $5 on a case of beer. We have recycling pick up for a reason, we recycle everything we can, we shouldn't have to make trips to the store with all our empties too.
it's not a tax, you get back what you pay, it's a deposit. It's hardly onerous either, you simply carry the cans or bottles in the same bag to the shops, that you will bring your shopping home in. Zero extra journeys, zero wastage, zero litter. There is no negative side.
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In reply to summo:
It's a tax. We already pay for recycling pick up from our houses. So if we put the bottles in our recycling (that we pay for) we do not get a refund and it goes to the government. It's a tax.
If they had the machines to collect the bottles at every store it would be fine, but they don't. It should be a fine on people who don't recycle, rather than a tax on those who already do.
> it's not a tax, you get back what you pay, it's a deposit. It's hardly onerous either, you simply carry the cans or bottles in the same bag to the shops, that you will bring your shopping home in. Zero extra journeys, zero wastage, zero litter. There is no negative side.
It's a tax. We already pay for recycling pick up from our houses. So if we put the bottles in our recycling (that we pay for) we do not get a refund and it goes to the government. It's a tax.
If they had the machines to collect the bottles at every store it would be fine, but they don't. It should be a fine on people who don't recycle, rather than a tax on those who already do.
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In reply to dsh:
Something works, as you don't see litter. When you do it's very noticeable, because you've become so accustomed to never seeing any.
> It's a tax. We already pay for recycling pick up from our houses. So if we put the bottles in our recycling (that we pay for) we do not get a refund and it goes to the government. It's a tax.
here, no one would put the bottles you get money back for in with their home litter/recycling, they'd take it for the money. It's still not a tax, you've made the choice not to take it back for refund. > If they had the machines to collect the bottles at every store it would be fine, but they don't. It should be a fine on people who don't recycle, rather than a tax on those who already do.
here, machines are pretty much universal on any store bigger than a corner shop. Something works, as you don't see litter. When you do it's very noticeable, because you've become so accustomed to never seeing any.
2
In reply to summo:
Ok, well I'm assuming you're somewhere like Denmark where they have these machines, and don't have a lot of litter, because people are respectful, and like to follow the rules (won't cross an empty street if light is red for example). I suspect they didn't have much litter in the first place, and the measures are in place to improve recycling rather than a litter problem. They have the bottle deposit here and there is still litter. I think the deposit could work at encouraging people who don't recycle to recycle. But in the UK I don't know anyone who would put their bottles out in their main rubbish instead of the recycling box. I don't think it prevents litter dropping, and you would have to put the deposit on crisp packets, sandwich packets etc etc, because there is just as much of that shit around as drink containers.
Just been doing some research on why they have the bottle bill here, and one of the main benefits, is that they can get more high quality material back when it is separate from other recycling. Well in the UK we had to separate ours anyway so you don't even get that benefit.
> here, no one would put the bottles you get money back for in with their home litter/recycling, they'd take it for the money. It's still not a tax, you've made the choice not to take it back for refund.
> here, machines are pretty much universal on any store bigger than a corner shop.
> Something works, as you don't see litter. When you do it's very noticeable, because you've become so accustomed to never seeing any.
Ok, well I'm assuming you're somewhere like Denmark where they have these machines, and don't have a lot of litter, because people are respectful, and like to follow the rules (won't cross an empty street if light is red for example). I suspect they didn't have much litter in the first place, and the measures are in place to improve recycling rather than a litter problem. They have the bottle deposit here and there is still litter. I think the deposit could work at encouraging people who don't recycle to recycle. But in the UK I don't know anyone who would put their bottles out in their main rubbish instead of the recycling box. I don't think it prevents litter dropping, and you would have to put the deposit on crisp packets, sandwich packets etc etc, because there is just as much of that shit around as drink containers.
Just been doing some research on why they have the bottle bill here, and one of the main benefits, is that they can get more high quality material back when it is separate from other recycling. Well in the UK we had to separate ours anyway so you don't even get that benefit.
Post edited at 16:30
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In reply to dsh:
perhaps some of it is more society related, with people being educated from a very young age. But encouraging people not to throw one type of litter, is only going to help them dispose of the others correctly (I would hope). The UK had this system on glass years ago and it chose to get rid of it, not sure why. It seems plain odd that there is a UK mission against plastic carrier bags, but nothing done for drink containers.
I don't the problem exists because of any of the financial reasons we are discussing, it's simply people litter as they lack any care about the environment in which they live and their general laziness. So, yes, introducing a deposit, a fine, a tax... is only going to influence a certain percentage, not all.
perhaps some of it is more society related, with people being educated from a very young age. But encouraging people not to throw one type of litter, is only going to help them dispose of the others correctly (I would hope). The UK had this system on glass years ago and it chose to get rid of it, not sure why. It seems plain odd that there is a UK mission against plastic carrier bags, but nothing done for drink containers.
I don't the problem exists because of any of the financial reasons we are discussing, it's simply people litter as they lack any care about the environment in which they live and their general laziness. So, yes, introducing a deposit, a fine, a tax... is only going to influence a certain percentage, not all.
In reply to summo:
and what actually happens is all the pissheads and addicts clean up after anyone that is lazy and litters who is not bothered about the refund as they collect any of the litter to get the cash. This system works really well in lots of places.
and what actually happens is all the pissheads and addicts clean up after anyone that is lazy and litters who is not bothered about the refund as they collect any of the litter to get the cash. This system works really well in lots of places.
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In reply to harold walmsley:
I'm constantly picking up rubbish at bouldering venues. It's been steadily getting worse year on year. I just do my bit and hope that eventually attitudes will change.
I'm constantly picking up rubbish at bouldering venues. It's been steadily getting worse year on year. I just do my bit and hope that eventually attitudes will change.
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In reply to harold walmsley:
Litter is a major problem. I was taught 'Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints'. Too many treat the outdoors like a restaurant, where someone is paid to clear up after you.
Even worse: at the foot of Commando Ridge, Bosigran, someone had left a big turd. This was also in a position that only a climber would get to. Inexcusable, there were plenty of places where this could have been dumped discretely, but no, there it was, right on the belay. I'd happily rub their nose in it.
Litter is a major problem. I was taught 'Take nothing but photographs, leave nothing but footprints'. Too many treat the outdoors like a restaurant, where someone is paid to clear up after you.
Even worse: at the foot of Commando Ridge, Bosigran, someone had left a big turd. This was also in a position that only a climber would get to. Inexcusable, there were plenty of places where this could have been dumped discretely, but no, there it was, right on the belay. I'd happily rub their nose in it.
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In reply to dsh:
It's not stupid and it's not a tax. It incentivises the collection of rubbish, and recycling of cans & bottles. People DON'T just "take their shit home, end of". They dump it anywhere and everywhere. 10p may not matter to these people but WILL appeal to others.
There should be a £20 refundable deposit on all tents below a certain price! £5 on a disposable bbq and 50p on a can of Tennants!
And possibly £5 per turd.
> No don't do this, it's stupid.
It's not stupid and it's not a tax. It incentivises the collection of rubbish, and recycling of cans & bottles. People DON'T just "take their shit home, end of". They dump it anywhere and everywhere. 10p may not matter to these people but WILL appeal to others.
There should be a £20 refundable deposit on all tents below a certain price! £5 on a disposable bbq and 50p on a can of Tennants!
And possibly £5 per turd.
Post edited at 20:25
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In reply to ultrabumbly:
you didn't read it properly, you don't get cash. You get a credit note, and here you can't buy booze over 3.5% in supermarkets either... so those addicts will be forced to buy food... no bad thing.
> and what actually happens is all the pissheads and addicts clean up after anyone that is lazy and litters who is not bothered about the refund as they collect any of the litter to get the cash. This system works really well in lots of places.
you didn't read it properly, you don't get cash. You get a credit note, and here you can't buy booze over 3.5% in supermarkets either... so those addicts will be forced to buy food... no bad thing.
1
In reply to harold walmsley:
On the hills Fag ends stuffed in cracks at Belay points is my hatred. you know that its wrong AND the guilty party knows too, and it makes getting gear in hard!
A lot of the litter we see is often on tops or in bothys, and it can be a long way to pack it out,[others litter, not our own that Has to stay with us till the bin]
A lot is also found within a mille or so of a bin, especially in the honey pot areas.
I have a string bag so anyone can see what's in it, it will not rip when sharp or flattened cans or bbq are picked up and is a good stuff sack, or shopping bag
what to do?
Its simple. stop this stupid fixation about Recycling, and go Back to re-using.
start NOW by getting milk delved to your door in a glass bottle. or buy a cow
Then ask a older person how fizzy drinks were bottled and delivered.
Then ask a even older person how beer bottles went round from bottling plant to pub and back. Medicine is another, and on and on it go's
If a deposit is levied on none re-useable it will help to stop some littering.
This is so in Finland, one drawback is if sitting in a park on a sunny day, your watched and as soon as its empty, someone will ask for it!
Think back 15 years when the cost of Aluminum was high in the uk, no cans around on the streets then.
On the hills Fag ends stuffed in cracks at Belay points is my hatred. you know that its wrong AND the guilty party knows too, and it makes getting gear in hard!
A lot of the litter we see is often on tops or in bothys, and it can be a long way to pack it out,[others litter, not our own that Has to stay with us till the bin]
A lot is also found within a mille or so of a bin, especially in the honey pot areas.
I have a string bag so anyone can see what's in it, it will not rip when sharp or flattened cans or bbq are picked up and is a good stuff sack, or shopping bag
what to do?
Its simple. stop this stupid fixation about Recycling, and go Back to re-using.
start NOW by getting milk delved to your door in a glass bottle. or buy a cow
Then ask a older person how fizzy drinks were bottled and delivered.
Then ask a even older person how beer bottles went round from bottling plant to pub and back. Medicine is another, and on and on it go's
If a deposit is levied on none re-useable it will help to stop some littering.
This is so in Finland, one drawback is if sitting in a park on a sunny day, your watched and as soon as its empty, someone will ask for it!
Think back 15 years when the cost of Aluminum was high in the uk, no cans around on the streets then.
1
In reply to summo:
I've lived in and visited countries where they do it and don't have the restrictions on percentages that they do in, say, Finland. NL for example everyone saves their empties for the machines in the supermarket from which you can spend the credit note on anything, and you can make your average frugal dutchman quite angry by squashing a can before throwing it in his recycling box Estonia I saw hordes of people combing parks, stations, beaches for recyclables. Local info was that after they turned them into the recycling centre they bought cheap cologne to drink. It isn't as genteel and well thought out in some countries as it is in others.
I've lived in and visited countries where they do it and don't have the restrictions on percentages that they do in, say, Finland. NL for example everyone saves their empties for the machines in the supermarket from which you can spend the credit note on anything, and you can make your average frugal dutchman quite angry by squashing a can before throwing it in his recycling box Estonia I saw hordes of people combing parks, stations, beaches for recyclables. Local info was that after they turned them into the recycling centre they bought cheap cologne to drink. It isn't as genteel and well thought out in some countries as it is in others.
1
In reply to harold walmsley:
Could be worse, we were climbing in Rhossili on Saturday and we noticed something that looked like rubbish down on the rocks way below us (just above sea level). I went to investigate and pick it up at the end of the day and found it was 2 bags of dog shit that had obviously been lobbed off the top of the cliff towards the sea but hadn't reached their targets.
Could be worse, we were climbing in Rhossili on Saturday and we noticed something that looked like rubbish down on the rocks way below us (just above sea level). I went to investigate and pick it up at the end of the day and found it was 2 bags of dog shit that had obviously been lobbed off the top of the cliff towards the sea but hadn't reached their targets.
In reply to ultrabumbly:
interesting use of causation and correlation there, recycling encourages alcoholism? Or alcoholics will always find a drink? I presume from seeing the mess around the UK, it doesn't have a drink problem?
However, perhaps there is some truth in it, did the UK withdraw the 10p back off glass pop bottles because of a growing problem among children snorting sherbet dip?
Local info to me would suggest, encourage recycling and force manufacturers to participate, then you have cleaner streets, roadside, fields, forest.... but each to their own.
> . Local info was that after they turned them into the recycling centre they bought cheap cologne to drink. It isn't as genteel and well thought out in some countries as it is in others.
interesting use of causation and correlation there, recycling encourages alcoholism? Or alcoholics will always find a drink? I presume from seeing the mess around the UK, it doesn't have a drink problem?
However, perhaps there is some truth in it, did the UK withdraw the 10p back off glass pop bottles because of a growing problem among children snorting sherbet dip?
Local info to me would suggest, encourage recycling and force manufacturers to participate, then you have cleaner streets, roadside, fields, forest.... but each to their own.
1
In reply to summo:
My last walk up Scafell Pike I picked up a full carrier bag of rubbish, and this was strictly only rubbish that was *on* the main path.
My last walk up Scafell Pike I picked up a full carrier bag of rubbish, and this was strictly only rubbish that was *on* the main path.
In reply to JimboWizbo:
It is quite saddening, it almost ruins a day out, when you see places in such a mess, but clearly not enough people think this way.
> My last walk up Scafell Pike I picked up a full carrier bag of rubbish, and this was strictly only rubbish that was *on* the main path.
It is quite saddening, it almost ruins a day out, when you see places in such a mess, but clearly not enough people think this way.
In reply to summo:
I didn't allude to any cum hoc reasoning. You would seem to be the one conflating observation with a statement of cause and effect . People with dependencies will quite efficiently take the course of least resistance. We don't have people trawling the trash in the UK because it is far simpler to swipe a handful of razor blades or batteries etc. and sell them in the nearest crap pub. Even if they get caught they will be out soon enough to have made the risk worthwhile. In NL they don't trawl for trash either, they are more likely to steal bikes.
The simple fact is that if you make packaging of value to someone then those desperate enough will pick it up.There is a bunch of issues around it, ideally we shouldn't have people living like that. If you make the deposit element significant then few people will discard.
I'm not sure that making "manufacturers play by the rules" is really the best or only way long term. There are things that are normal in some countries and not in others and for no seemingly good reason other than history. An example would be parts of the US and drinking fountains. Why in the UK did we instead have people championing soda free vending machines for schools that now instead sell bottled water and questionably better items than pop, rather than just putting fountains in all of them. I quite like the Australian no nonsense approach used in Bundanoon, just ban the sale of a product in a form that has no real merit and provide an alternative.
Recycling issues aside, I think with littering there is a lot to be said for embarrassing people when you catch them doing it. I don't think twice about throwing something back through a car window in car parks, "hey mate, you dropped something!" I've only had a couple of people be clueless/belligerent enough to not take that fact that they had been "busted" straight off in many years of doing it, "oh it's just a wrapper I don't need it," "oh, I think you do!". There was one incident where I saw a guy emptying his ashtrays out in one of the Glen Nevis car parks, that wouldn't be that unheard of, but he had also driven close up to the water and was washing his car there with bubbles in the water 100s of yds downstream. "I wouldn't be the first to tell you you're a massive XXXX, right?", "Nae", "Thought so"
I see little very little of littering behaviour from climbers and boulderers. I would hope that those that do it just don't know any better yet or are being typical absent minded teenagers. The way I see tape get left most often is people wedge it under a mat while taking it and shoes off, get up and pick up the mat forgetting and not seeing the tape. On the odd occasion I see someone wedging a fag butt or wrapper below a route they will return to find it in their shoes or pack usually with a handful of sheep shit.
The reason this topic has sent me into rant mode is I am fecking sick to the back teeth of carting stuff out of the shelter below Foel Grach which is a few miles from the venue the OP posted about. It is a pretty regular route for me running from Llanfairfechan over to the A5. I'll get the place empty and there will be more shit there again next time. Is an empty nightlight that inconvenient to carry out? Especially if they carried in 2 dozen of the things. This summer I have been popping my head in early to see if I can catch anyone in the act but I usually run or walk when the weather is crap and litter rats seem to be a fair weather plague. It seems to be the same people doing it as it is the same selection of food wrappers each time. The bastards can't be so dim as not not realise someone is taking their rubbish away.
I didn't allude to any cum hoc reasoning. You would seem to be the one conflating observation with a statement of cause and effect . People with dependencies will quite efficiently take the course of least resistance. We don't have people trawling the trash in the UK because it is far simpler to swipe a handful of razor blades or batteries etc. and sell them in the nearest crap pub. Even if they get caught they will be out soon enough to have made the risk worthwhile. In NL they don't trawl for trash either, they are more likely to steal bikes.
The simple fact is that if you make packaging of value to someone then those desperate enough will pick it up.There is a bunch of issues around it, ideally we shouldn't have people living like that. If you make the deposit element significant then few people will discard.
I'm not sure that making "manufacturers play by the rules" is really the best or only way long term. There are things that are normal in some countries and not in others and for no seemingly good reason other than history. An example would be parts of the US and drinking fountains. Why in the UK did we instead have people championing soda free vending machines for schools that now instead sell bottled water and questionably better items than pop, rather than just putting fountains in all of them. I quite like the Australian no nonsense approach used in Bundanoon, just ban the sale of a product in a form that has no real merit and provide an alternative.
Recycling issues aside, I think with littering there is a lot to be said for embarrassing people when you catch them doing it. I don't think twice about throwing something back through a car window in car parks, "hey mate, you dropped something!" I've only had a couple of people be clueless/belligerent enough to not take that fact that they had been "busted" straight off in many years of doing it, "oh it's just a wrapper I don't need it," "oh, I think you do!". There was one incident where I saw a guy emptying his ashtrays out in one of the Glen Nevis car parks, that wouldn't be that unheard of, but he had also driven close up to the water and was washing his car there with bubbles in the water 100s of yds downstream. "I wouldn't be the first to tell you you're a massive XXXX, right?", "Nae", "Thought so"
I see little very little of littering behaviour from climbers and boulderers. I would hope that those that do it just don't know any better yet or are being typical absent minded teenagers. The way I see tape get left most often is people wedge it under a mat while taking it and shoes off, get up and pick up the mat forgetting and not seeing the tape. On the odd occasion I see someone wedging a fag butt or wrapper below a route they will return to find it in their shoes or pack usually with a handful of sheep shit.
The reason this topic has sent me into rant mode is I am fecking sick to the back teeth of carting stuff out of the shelter below Foel Grach which is a few miles from the venue the OP posted about. It is a pretty regular route for me running from Llanfairfechan over to the A5. I'll get the place empty and there will be more shit there again next time. Is an empty nightlight that inconvenient to carry out? Especially if they carried in 2 dozen of the things. This summer I have been popping my head in early to see if I can catch anyone in the act but I usually run or walk when the weather is crap and litter rats seem to be a fair weather plague. It seems to be the same people doing it as it is the same selection of food wrappers each time. The bastards can't be so dim as not not realise someone is taking their rubbish away.
2
In reply to ultrabumbly:
Sadly, this only seems to encourage some people. It only confirms their view that rubbish magically disappears once thrown away and isn't their problem.
> The bastards can't be so dim as not not realise someone is taking their rubbish away.
Sadly, this only seems to encourage some people. It only confirms their view that rubbish magically disappears once thrown away and isn't their problem.
2
I would like to see rubbish ninjas. Well, good ninjas that hide, and then when they see someone intentionally drop/throw rubbish they publicly give that person a kicking, or rub their nose in the bag of dog shit they just hung in the tree or threw over the fence.
Littering is getting worse and worse. Even though there are evidently many people who care enough about it to pick up litter when they find it (thank you) there seems to be a disproportionately large and steadily growing number of people who just don't care. I can't think of a useful solution except for ninjas. I suspect littering would rapidly decrease if my idea was implemented.
But then I'd like to ban smoking in all public places as well, so I don't expect to be winning many votes!
Littering is getting worse and worse. Even though there are evidently many people who care enough about it to pick up litter when they find it (thank you) there seems to be a disproportionately large and steadily growing number of people who just don't care. I can't think of a useful solution except for ninjas. I suspect littering would rapidly decrease if my idea was implemented.
But then I'd like to ban smoking in all public places as well, so I don't expect to be winning many votes!
5
In reply to ultrabumbly:
> The simple fact is that if you make packaging of value to someone then those desperate enough will pick it up.There is a bunch of issues around it, ideally we shouldn't have people living like that. If you make the deposit element significant then few people will discard.
Education from a young age will make the most difference, but it won't happen. Next best is financial. If people pick up cans/bottles to get their fix, rather than steal is that a bad thing?
Manufacturers are under no pressure at all to consider packaging, I can't believe there aren't laws over excess packaging, or making items which can be split into their constituent parts. Uk schools were a fair motivator for leaving the UK in the first place, here Sweden you won't get any drink machines in school, only what you are given with your free school meals or water from fountains. But water fountains are quite common here in shopping centres, even visitor attractions so you aren't instantly obliged to pay over the odds for a drink costing pennies.
That works fine shouting down from a crag, try that to a teenager on an inner city street.
I agree a fair amount could be accident, car boot opens something blows out etc.. but the stuff on mountain summits, paths, are ir/regular walkers not carrying it out or being careless in their management of it. Some outdoor programmes TV could do more, Bear grills could do a little on the UK wilderness and preserving it, rather than pretend survival shows and parading around the world. He is chief scout after all. Perhaps he could accept a slightly less lucrative endorsement deal with biffa skips. Or he could endorse a schools programme, fund it a little, roadshow etc..
There many different aspects of science that could be taught at the same time as teaching kids about waste management and environmental protection.
In schools here they have on mass litter picking in the local area 2 or 3 times a year, starting from the 3 or 4 year olds and up. They don't get much overall, that it plants the see that if they drop it, they may have to pick it up later and the youngest get little stickers and badges as rewards promoting a cleaner country. Plus, the kids are probably off to the forest or lake once a week from age 1 upwards with nursery, so potential wildlife damage is education too, not just the visual impact.. so it's pretty conditioned into them.
I think most are the same, on Cadar, the old shelter on the brecons did too, even the old slate quarry building's walls where groups must be sheltering at Blaenau... many of these groups should have some sort of responsible leader with them.
> The simple fact is that if you make packaging of value to someone then those desperate enough will pick it up.There is a bunch of issues around it, ideally we shouldn't have people living like that. If you make the deposit element significant then few people will discard.
Education from a young age will make the most difference, but it won't happen. Next best is financial. If people pick up cans/bottles to get their fix, rather than steal is that a bad thing?
> I'm not sure that making "manufacturers play by the rules" is really the best or only way long term. ....
Manufacturers are under no pressure at all to consider packaging, I can't believe there aren't laws over excess packaging, or making items which can be split into their constituent parts. Uk schools were a fair motivator for leaving the UK in the first place, here Sweden you won't get any drink machines in school, only what you are given with your free school meals or water from fountains. But water fountains are quite common here in shopping centres, even visitor attractions so you aren't instantly obliged to pay over the odds for a drink costing pennies.
> Recycling issues aside, I think with littering there is a lot to be said for embarrassing people when you catch them doing it.
That works fine shouting down from a crag, try that to a teenager on an inner city street.
> I see little very little of littering behaviour from climbers and boulderers.
I agree a fair amount could be accident, car boot opens something blows out etc.. but the stuff on mountain summits, paths, are ir/regular walkers not carrying it out or being careless in their management of it. Some outdoor programmes TV could do more, Bear grills could do a little on the UK wilderness and preserving it, rather than pretend survival shows and parading around the world. He is chief scout after all. Perhaps he could accept a slightly less lucrative endorsement deal with biffa skips. Or he could endorse a schools programme, fund it a little, roadshow etc..
There many different aspects of science that could be taught at the same time as teaching kids about waste management and environmental protection.
In schools here they have on mass litter picking in the local area 2 or 3 times a year, starting from the 3 or 4 year olds and up. They don't get much overall, that it plants the see that if they drop it, they may have to pick it up later and the youngest get little stickers and badges as rewards promoting a cleaner country. Plus, the kids are probably off to the forest or lake once a week from age 1 upwards with nursery, so potential wildlife damage is education too, not just the visual impact.. so it's pretty conditioned into them.
> The reason this topic has sent me into rant mode is I am fecking sick to the back teeth of carting stuff out of the shelter below Foel Grach
I think most are the same, on Cadar, the old shelter on the brecons did too, even the old slate quarry building's walls where groups must be sheltering at Blaenau... many of these groups should have some sort of responsible leader with them.
In reply to ultrabumbly:
Perhaps a laminated notice fixed inside the shelter might help, worth a try?
Perhaps a laminated notice fixed inside the shelter might help, worth a try?
In reply to Mark Kemball:
the shelter has a notice already and that it shouldn't be used for planned overnight stops that is ignored.
http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/tabbycat33/media/P1130439.jpg.html
the shelter has a notice already and that it shouldn't be used for planned overnight stops that is ignored.
http://s1099.photobucket.com/user/tabbycat33/media/P1130439.jpg.html
In reply to ultrabumbly:
That's very disappointing.
When I took my youngest to the Lakes for the first time, I taught him to pick up litter to take off the hill. On our way up Scafell Pike, he spotted some paper in the distance, ran over to pick it up - two £20 notes - instant karma!
That's very disappointing.
When I took my youngest to the Lakes for the first time, I taught him to pick up litter to take off the hill. On our way up Scafell Pike, he spotted some paper in the distance, ran over to pick it up - two £20 notes - instant karma!
3
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