UKC

My daughter and her friends are in France (Font!) and have had their car broken into with their passports and virtual everything else fried has driving licence) . Inevitably British embassy is closed for bank holiday and emergency line doesn't pick up. She is just assuming that she is stuck in France until she can get an emergency reentry document tomorrow.

Has anyone got any other ideas? Presumably there is not a chance the airline will let her board?

In reply to Postmanpat:

It might be worth getting down to the airport early and seeing what they can do. I travelled back to the UK sans documents about eight years ago just by showing my ticket and an assortment of membership cards I still had (YHA, Foundry, Notts Wall etc.). It took a couple of hours including ringing the UK to check though and given the current situation they may no longer be happy to give the benefit of the doubt but if there is nothing to lose it might be worth trying.

In reply to Postmanpat:

See if you can find a Consulate near where they are, there should be an emergency number, or try this 24 emergency number for UK citizens trying to help a relative abroad

020 7008 1500

Good luck.

In reply to Postmanpat:
Unfortunately I'm pretty sure she's not the only one trying to get from France to the UK without a passport at the moment...

In reply to Trangia:




Thanks for that. Just spoke to them and they confirm she will have to wait until tomorrow. At least we know we're not missing a trick.
Just annoyed I didn't warn her that Font is infamous for this!

In reply to Postmanpat:

It's worrying if car break ins at Font are starting again. It used to be a really serious problem, but had died off in recent years. I remember that about 15 years ago it was so bad that we used to take it in turns for one of our group to guard the cars in the car park whilst the others climbed (obviously swapping the "guard" every hour or so). It became a task for non climbing partners to sit in the car with a book

Another target for thieves are GB plated cars visiting Commonwealth War Graves.

Hope your daughter gets through this trauma OK and isn't too much out of pocket.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Getting back into the UK without a passport shouldn't be too much of a problem. Her photo will be on the UK system anyway.

In reply to Trangia:




Thanks. She feinted when she realised she'd lost everything (!) but seems OK now. Hopefully insurance will cover much of it.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I think she will still need an emergency passport/travel documents even with other id/photos on system unless it has changed in the past 6 years when I needed to do this. Beware that if you have to wire her money to pay for ETD and other expenses and she has lost all photo ID it can be a problem to pick the money up. The consulate will normally have an arrangement where a local Western Union (or other) agent will take a declaration from them for upto I think 500EU as a one time thing. If one friend has a driving lic. then it may be better to get money to her via the friend.

In reply to ultrabumbly:


Thanks, one of her friends had his card on him so can access money so should be OK.

In reply to Postmanpat:

oh and for the ETD paperwork they require a local police incident number for the paperwork. So they must report the theft/loss so she can get the ball rolling with that.

In reply to Postmanpat:




Don't beat yourself up over it, the folly of youth can rarely be overidden by parental wisdom ;(

In reply to Trangia: sorry to hear of the mishaps and that breaking in is breaking out again. I had my car quarter light broken and the glove box content removed not long ago at the Elephant ( only Peugeot would be idiot enough to have a quarter light just above where you can reach in and open the safety lock!). Where in fact did this happen?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Well I had my passport stolen in Canada and managed to get a flight back and admission to the UK by showing my (non photo) driver's licence.

Unfortunately that was 42 years ago so not very relevant ... Hope your daughter gets back without too much hassle.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Eurostar at Paris nord is your best bet - I did this last year after losing my passport on a skiing trip.

The reason for this is that there are British immigration police at the station, so they can allow you through - after filling out the requisite forms. No airline will allow you on these days - they get fined

In reply to Postmanpat:

Thanks for all your replies: she's back in the UK now. The answer is that if this happens you need to get a police crime number and then go to the embassy to get a temporary travel document.

She did try getting her original flight and managed to check in but was bumped off the at the boarding gate. To their credit Air France changed her booking by 24 hours for free. I don't know if Eurostar could have issued a travel doc had she tried that.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Glad she got home OK

Where did the break in occur?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Glad to hear it got sorted.

It is worth noting for anyone that ends up in this situation that, depending on when you have to travel, a passport renewal can also be done(you have to pay the courier fee from UK to embassy / consulate) but the timing depends on where you are and the time of the year. It is worth considering if you have 2 or more weeks off season or 4 or more high season. When I did it I think the ETD was about 80% of the cost of a normal replacement passport .

In reply to Trangia:



Thx. Don't know, I'll report back if I find out!

In reply to ultrabumbly:

When I lost my passport (some 5 years ago) I got a replacement from the UK consulate in Paris in a couple of days, unfortunately the consulates can no longer issue passports - causing lots of problems for non UK based UK citizens

In reply to Doug:

Yeah I just checked and you are right. It seems now that you have to order online and go through the hassle of having certified translations of your proof of address if you are resident in another country.

In reply to Doug:


Unfortunately, having done this they failed to allocate the extra staff needed in the UK to process all the passport applications from overseas residents, hence the problems caused to UK residents applying for passports earlier this summer. My daughter is about to find out of this oversight has been resolved!

In reply to Postmanpat:
when I was approaching needing a renewal and I was an expat I made a trip home and spent half a day in Liverpool to get the one day renewal. It requires an advance appointment but if you are somewhere you can get a cheap flight to one of the customer service centres then it can be less hassle than the other means. As I understand it, a proxy can go for you with suitable ID for both the appointment and the collection but I have no experience of doing it that way. The extra cost was somewhere in the region of £50 iirc for the one day premium.

edit:I just read the current rules and to use a proxy you are supposed to be in the UK yourself at the time.

In reply to ultrabumbly:


Also, they can't do it to replace a lost or stolen passport.

In reply to ultrabumbly:
Re expats renewal. Can confirm that the best way is to get a same day appointment back in the UK. You need to have some address in UK to get the appointment though, it seems. And make sure the photos are the right size: those in the French metro stations do not always measure up. It was a hassle and expensive, but it worked.

In reply to jcw:

Be careful with a same day appointment in the UK. I got scammed...

The following para gives the background story and context:
(I had my passport & US green card stolen in Mexico a year and a half ago, on a trip out of the US. The UK consulate were really helpful, but the US not at all so - they sent me all over Mexico on useless trips to US consulates. It would have taken me weeks to get a replacement Green Card. Luckily -at the end of a week of hassle with paperwork and the UK and US authorities - (1) on my last night in Mexico, my stolen bag was returned to my hotel complete with my UK passport, which had been cancelled and the US Green Card, which had not - and (2) a couple of hours before my return flight to the US, the UK ETD turned up at the UK consulate in Cancun. So I was able to take my flight to the US - as a Green Card holder one needs both that and UK documentation to re-enter the US. )

A couple of days after my return to the US I was due to return to the UK and then a day after that travel to the Netherlands, where I was teaching a course for a week. So I booked a same day appointment at the Victoria passport office in London for a few hours after my return from the US. In making the booking over the internet, I somehow got switched from the legit .gov site to a copycat one with a .org.uk address. All the emails they sent were exact replicas of the legit ones, and in the process I parted with 110 pounds for emergency gold-plated service. When I got to Victoria, an appointment had been booked on my behalf but the passport office would not process me because the emails were not legit. So I had to arrange another appointment through the Peterborough office for a new passport - because only that office was actually doing the legitimate same day appointments. The need for a new passport was still urgent, because the ETD was only valid for five days - enough to get me to the Netherlands, but not back again.

I was really worried when I left Heathrow for the Netherlands that the passport control there would spot that my ETD was due to expire before my return date from the Netherlands. Now, here is the bizarre thing that happened leaving Heathrow, which has never happened to me before (and I leave Heathrow about a dozen times a year): I managed to slip through the passport control and onto the plane without anyone asking to see my passport (old and cancelled) or the ETD!

My new UK passport was finally couriered through to me in The Netherlands, so there was no problem on my return.

This was the first time in forty years of continual traveling that I have ever had my valuable documents stolen or lost. *I would not recommend the experience!*

In reply to jcw:

ps. Here is a warning re passport photos. Don't use any of the passport photo booths, because they really amount to another scam: there is no way that one can get one's head aligned accurately enough to get photos that actually fulfill the stringent requirements. One can waste a lot of money trying. Go to a professional photographer who deals with passport photos.

In reply to John Stainforth:
Yep, I ended up with four sets of photos and even the ones that were finally accepted despite checking with the PO were queried at Victoria. And getting the appointment was a real hassle as it was almost impossible to find the correct tel number of the Victoria Office. It was only through good friends that finally it all worked. All this to get to Putingrad for a conference where one had to have six months to run on the current passport ( as in the USA). And then the Ruskies wouldn't give me a visa because I was too old to get insurance in case of illness. Fortunately I had my then current passport which was still valid whilst all this was going on. This incidentally was this year. We've rather hijacked this thread but it may help those who get in a similar situation. Plan well ahead.
And I would still like to know where the break in at Bleau ( sorry Font,) took place.

In reply to jcw:


Right, it was actually parked on Rue du porte de valvins, on the banks of the Seine so not actually next to the rocks. They only left it for ten minutes but, did notice afterwards some signs of other break ins (glass)

In reply to Postmanpat:

Must admit that when travelling I like to have my passport on me at all times in a reasonably secure pocket (e.g. with a zip)... may be a lesson for next time there. The one exception is the safe in a *reputable* hotel.

In reply to Neil Williams:

I don't always find that practical eg if swimming or climbing. I deliberately didn't carry it in Barcelona as there are apparently lots of pickpockets. Its difficult sometimes, balancing the risks, car vs tent or apartment with no safe. Women's clothes don't usually have a zip pocket that size. Handbags can be snatched or lost.

Its a shame it can't be plastic and credit card sized so it wouldn't matter if it got wet and it would be easier to carry. Although easier to lose if smaller I guess.

In reply to John Stainforth:

Needed to renew my passport in advance of current one expiring, used my nearest supermarket booth. I thought the pic was terrible with regards to their set dimensions but sent it off anyway. Nervous wait ensued.
I sent the application on a Thursday and by the following Wednesday I had my new passport through the door. Astonishingly efficient service!

In reply to Postmanpat:
Lost mine on an ice climbing trip driving back to airport. Quick phone call from easy jet desk to embassy in Paris, a few questions and they said they'd tell Bristol to expect me. One form to fill out at Bristol and home. Almost the same time through as with it.

Good luck

Toby

In reply to marsbar:

Swimming no, I'll give you Climbing, depends what you wear. Barcelona, true, though what I have tended to do there is always walk around with my hands in my pockets on whatever I don't want nicked, though that problem does rather take the shine off the place and makes me less likely to go there.

Apartment is probably OK if you put it somewhere obscure. Tent, no chance, I would always carry rather than leave it in a tent (or find another option like railway station luggage lockers). Car, similarly no chance unless there is a hidden lockable compartment (though sticking it under the spare wheel, say, is probably reasonably safe).


Yes, I think they could do with bringing in a "passport card" for European travel and ID purposes only. This would basically be the same as an EU country ID card - basically the back page of a passport and biometric data. No complex and expensive national identity register baggage.

In reply to Postmanpat:


Whilst no consolation to your daughter it interesting to see that it appears to have been a random break in rather a deliberately targeted car in a Font rocks car park. Thanks for posting that.

In reply to Toby_W:


Must depend on the airline. There is no legal requirement for a UK citizen entering the UK to have a valid passport, but the airline is responsible for anyone refused entry. As I understand it, that is why they insist on all international passengers having passports, even if they are travelling to their home country.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Thanks. While still sorry for the misfortune am glad to hear that this case does not seem to target specifically climbers.

In reply to John Stainforth:


I flew out of Luton at the start of August and was headed for Zurich, using the Easyjet phone app for boarding passes and never even got my passport out of my pocket. No one seemed interested in it at all - just waved my phone at the reader and that was it.

those of you saying you didn't have your passport checked, Is this now because they have been RFID enabled for a while?

The fact they still will usually get you to wave your photo page under their nose and will continue to it is because they judge your demeanour when interacting with passengers for all sorts of security reasons. I doubt there will be any clerical reason to do it when the last of the oldest passports are replaced and other countries catch up.

In reply to ultrabumbly:

Can this be done without getting the passport out of your pocket now (see post above yours)? I had to place mine on a reader and look into a camera...

In reply to ultrabumbly:

Not mine - the chip in mine hasn't worked since the day I got it. It's caused me nothing but grief, certainly when I first had it and they kept trying to make me use the queue with the scanner.
Like I said, no one had any interest in looking at my passport a few weeks back when I was flying out.

In reply to obi-wan nick b:

I think in some airports they have your picture ready at security to airside from when you have checked in and the details are forwarded so they can shortlist people ahead of them getting to any point in the system. It maybe that you have had to have gone through that country's systems recently for them to have everything they want on file but the chip in the passport does have a copy of the picture though I guess this might be quite different for some people as a passport approaches the end of its lifespan but stuff like eye spacing stays the same. I'm also pretty sure they can be scanned through bags even as some travel luggage is now sold with RFID proof pockets. I have seen RFID systems work for container systems where they can pick up boxes inside boxes so I don't think clothing would be an issue. The looking into the camera thing is because they do a match against the picture that they usually already have by that point. Though it is hard to see in most places, one arrivals checkpoint I went through I caught a look at the interface they had there and it appeared to be like an electronic "guess who" and they had the pictures on there of the people from my flight behind me in the queue.

I used to drink with an American guy that was an immigration bod on secondment to a major European airport. He mentioned a load of stuff that I was completely unaware of happening that goes on as you make your way from check in to boarding and at the other end.

In reply to mrchewy:


That is unusually incompetent for Luton. I flew LTN-GVA weekly for 2 years, and I never once didn't have my passport checked at the boarding gate.

Your passport will not be checked at security, but that's because security have no interest in it - the UK security process does not depend on knowing who is who (unlike the US), it works by applying the same standards (plus random higher checks) to everyone regardless of who you are. That you have to scan a boarding pass is for 2 reasons - so they know you have arrived, and so people don't take the wife, kids and dog through to wave them off and thus clog up security capacity, thus increasing cost.

Neil

In reply to ultrabumbly:


That is completely false; there is nothing reading passports randomly from the crowd. They are only read when placed on the machine, and in order to gain access to the contents of the chip you need to provide it (it isn't just a dumb memory store) with some information from the machine readable information at the bottom of the printed page, which is why you have to place it open on the readers for the auto-gates.

Neil

In reply to obi-wan nick b:


No, it cannot.

Neil

In reply to ultrabumbly:

Some airports take a photograph of you at check-in or on entry to security. That is nothing to do with immigration. It is done where the airport has a combined departure lounge for both domestic and international flights, and it exists to ensure the person arriving at the gate for a domestic flight is the same one who was previously legally on UK soil and not just transiting the airport. (ID checks can't establish this because a passport is generally (Ryanair aside, I think) not required for domestic flights - some airlines (easyJet) accept driving licences, and others (BA) don't require photo ID at all).


That exists for the paranoid and there is no logical basis for it whatsoever. (And in any case putting your passport in your bag is a good way to lose it).


That's from the autogates. Every photo appearing on there has been read from a passport placed on the reader open at the autogate.

Neil

In reply to mrchewy:
I have 2 or 3 times in the last 15 years flown to France without having my passport checked. Only with a printed boarding pass, I don't think you can pick up a boarding pass at the airport without a passport. It seems to happen more often with some airlines than others, and not the ones you might expect...

In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm glad someone has explained that to the seasoned travellers 😃

In reply to Neil Williams:

That isn't quite accurate. The range is practically around 0.5m when the passport is open. It could in theory be much greater but then you would have signal pollution affecting other nearby units. The passport is reasonably shielded, by design, when closed. Many people at boarding hold the passport open, flat, at the photo page with their boarding pass out of habit. The reason for placing the passport, at all points in the system, "in" machines with the "chevron" machine readable area correctly orientated is that the system has to also cope with 2 sets of users: those with passports issued before they included rfid (still a couple of years to go)and those whose passport's rfid has died, as even when this happens the passport remains valid. Everything on the machine readable area is also on the rfid enabled part. However the reader has to handshake with the passport before it yields all the information past its unique identifier . This happens by the reader sending a paired key to the passport and yes it can derive the key from the printed area. The request is human initiated as this is the one point where identity theft is possible, in theory, in that after the handshake someone could record what is sent back to the reader and later decrypt it. It can absolutely "tell" that a unique fully working passport is there though from the point it can read it and the issuing and partnered agencies already have the extended details including,implicitly, the key on file and so too do the airline and airport if you have been through that set of systems with that passport before or you are later in the chain having already had the passport scanned. The technology and systems have been available for yonks to do it absolutely "contactless" past the first show.

One of the reasons most have stuck with old practices is they found that there were problems with the human factors in the process. In dealing with the cases where the interaction didn't go ideally, diligence dropped and errors were made with the majority. Just because they don't typically do something does not mean they don't have the capacity to do so. I could quite easily see the situation where old Ethel is the last on the manifest and is balancing her bag and cane trying to drop the passport on the counter and she just gets blipped through without them touching her passport seeing as they know she has produced it earlier in the process and they know she has it about her person at while at the counter.

In reply to ultrabumbly:

It makes no difference whatsoever what the range is. The chip is a "smart" chip and it will not release stored data from itself unless some other data is provided to it first. That data is found on the machine-readable printed part of the passport.


False. The e-gates are usable only by e-passport holders. There is no point in scanning the machine readable bit other than that it is required to get access to the electronic bit!


Potentially.


It does appear (I just read mine using a phone app) the passport chip has an RFID chip ID on it which can be read without more information. However one assumes that (like a passport number without any further information) is not actually of any use, because it would not be unique across countries. You can't get anything else without the key information, which appears to be passport number, date of birth and date of issue.


If she has a manually-issued boarding card yes, as that would not have been issued without a passport check. But that has nothing to do with e-passports whatsoever.

I feel you are being rather paranoid and coming up with "possible" conspiratorial use cases rather than ones based on technology actually being used in airports.