This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
What defines:
The North
The West Country
The Home Counties
I'll propose a boundary from just north of Chesterfield to just south of Manchester for the first.
The North
The West Country
The Home Counties
I'll propose a boundary from just north of Chesterfield to just south of Manchester for the first.
In reply to MG:
An incomplete picture. You missed out East Anglia for one thing.
I'd say The Home Counties are defined in part by rail links to London.
The West Country for me is defined in part by the junction of the M4/M5 outside of Bristol. This excludes Gloucestershire and Wiltshire from the picture however, which have more of the 'feel' of The West Country about them and less of the southeast.
An incomplete picture. You missed out East Anglia for one thing.
I'd say The Home Counties are defined in part by rail links to London.
The West Country for me is defined in part by the junction of the M4/M5 outside of Bristol. This excludes Gloucestershire and Wiltshire from the picture however, which have more of the 'feel' of The West Country about them and less of the southeast.
Post edited at 10:45
In reply to Tom Last:
Yes, I realize there are other bits too! Isn't EA just Norfolk and Suffolk?
> An incomplete picture. You missed out East Anglia for one thing.
Yes, I realize there are other bits too! Isn't EA just Norfolk and Suffolk?
In reply to MG:
Ah yes, pretty much - and Cambridgeshire I expect. It's not that great!
> Yes, I realize there are other bits too! Isn't EA just Norfolk and Suffolk?
Ah yes, pretty much - and Cambridgeshire I expect. It's not that great!
In reply to MG:
The North boundary seems to depend on your view point. To me, from north durham, the north starts at Darlington - everyone else seems to think its Sheffield ish. Which is nuts - cos Sheffield is a miles south.
Bloody southerners
The North boundary seems to depend on your view point. To me, from north durham, the north starts at Darlington - everyone else seems to think its Sheffield ish. Which is nuts - cos Sheffield is a miles south.
Bloody southerners
3
In reply to mp3ferret:
yeah at a push the M62, but more a line between Blackpool and Scarborough, (York / skipton ish). Manchester down to Brum is the Midlands.
yeah at a push the M62, but more a line between Blackpool and Scarborough, (York / skipton ish). Manchester down to Brum is the Midlands.
1
In reply to MG:
The North is defined by an line through Crewe Mansfield and Lincoln. I'm pretty sure of that on zero basis.
The North is defined by an line through Crewe Mansfield and Lincoln. I'm pretty sure of that on zero basis.
In reply to MG:
Nope. Definitions vary.
At the minimum it includes Cambridgeshire and north Essex.
Other uses are broader still:
The army East Anglian regiments (now formed into the single Royal Anglians) covered all of Essex, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire as well.
The tourist board use the same.
> Yes, I realize there are other bits too! Isn't EA just Norfolk and Suffolk?
Nope. Definitions vary.
At the minimum it includes Cambridgeshire and north Essex.
Other uses are broader still:
The army East Anglian regiments (now formed into the single Royal Anglians) covered all of Essex, Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire as well.
The tourist board use the same.
In reply to KevinD:
Confusing one isn't it. I grew up in Hertfordshire I can't think of anyone ever having referred to it as East Anglia. But then the old border between the kingdoms of Essex and Mercia ran through Herts, and both Essex and Mercia were obviously distinct from Anglia.
There's no consciousness of these distinctions these days among the populous as there is in a place like Cornwall for example, but maybe it's filtered down in name alone if nothing more.
FWIW, in terms of geographical area boundaries, the watershed of The Lea south of Hertford makes a pretty good case for being a natural border between Essex and Herts.
Confusing one isn't it. I grew up in Hertfordshire I can't think of anyone ever having referred to it as East Anglia. But then the old border between the kingdoms of Essex and Mercia ran through Herts, and both Essex and Mercia were obviously distinct from Anglia.
There's no consciousness of these distinctions these days among the populous as there is in a place like Cornwall for example, but maybe it's filtered down in name alone if nothing more.
FWIW, in terms of geographical area boundaries, the watershed of The Lea south of Hertford makes a pretty good case for being a natural border between Essex and Herts.
Post edited at 11:30
In reply to KevinD:
OK - my apologies to all East Anglians for my ignorance!
From the posts above, I am getting concerned I may in fact be living in the nebulous, characterless wasteland that is the Midlands and not the North....!
OK - my apologies to all East Anglians for my ignorance!
From the posts above, I am getting concerned I may in fact be living in the nebulous, characterless wasteland that is the Midlands and not the North....!
In reply to MG:
The saying goes in North London/Home Counties that The North is everywhere past Watford!
> OK - my apologies to all East Anglians for my ignorance!
> From the posts above, I am getting concerned I may in fact be living in the nebulous, characterless wasteland that is the Midlands and not the North....!
The saying goes in North London/Home Counties that The North is everywhere past Watford!
In reply to MG:
The North: Above a line from the Wash to the Mersey
Home counties: Those that abut London with the addition of Herts, Bucks and Beds
West country: Anywhere where people saying 'combine harvester' raises a smile.
The North: Above a line from the Wash to the Mersey
Home counties: Those that abut London with the addition of Herts, Bucks and Beds
West country: Anywhere where people saying 'combine harvester' raises a smile.
2
In reply to MG:
You can't just say "the North" without defining how many parts you are requiring. In a north-south division then the boundary is probably somewhere just above the limits of the Birmingham accent, Leicestershire upwards. In a regional division then above the East Midlands (Derbys, Notts, Lincs etc). To the Romans it was everywhere above the Trent, to the Saxons it started somewhere near Northumbria, it all depends on your point of view which is why regionalism is so crap.
You can't just say "the North" without defining how many parts you are requiring. In a north-south division then the boundary is probably somewhere just above the limits of the Birmingham accent, Leicestershire upwards. In a regional division then above the East Midlands (Derbys, Notts, Lincs etc). To the Romans it was everywhere above the Trent, to the Saxons it started somewhere near Northumbria, it all depends on your point of view which is why regionalism is so crap.
1
In reply to Tom Last:
The problem is the various Kingdoms expanded and contracted over time and also exchanged owners.
I think it was just for a short period, under one of the Vikings, that the Kingdom of East Anglia covered all those counties (although not the entirety of Herts, Beds and Essex).
Then after that the Earldom of East Anglia also expanded and contracted until disappearing fairly early on and blurring into just being part of England.
> Confusing one isn't it. I grew up in Hertfordshire I can't think of anyone ever having referred to it as East Anglia. But then the old border between the kingdoms of Essex and Mercia ran through Herts, and both Essex and Mercia were obviously distinct from Anglia.
The problem is the various Kingdoms expanded and contracted over time and also exchanged owners.
I think it was just for a short period, under one of the Vikings, that the Kingdom of East Anglia covered all those counties (although not the entirety of Herts, Beds and Essex).
Then after that the Earldom of East Anglia also expanded and contracted until disappearing fairly early on and blurring into just being part of England.
In reply to MG:
Viewed as a Cumbrian I'd say that The North stops somewhere between Manchester and Stoke as I see the latter as being in the Midlands. On the eastern side it would probably be the Yorkshire/Lincolnshire border.
The West Country: Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and a bit of Dorset
The Home Counties: Mordor.
Viewed as a Cumbrian I'd say that The North stops somewhere between Manchester and Stoke as I see the latter as being in the Midlands. On the eastern side it would probably be the Yorkshire/Lincolnshire border.
The West Country: Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and a bit of Dorset
The Home Counties: Mordor.
1
In reply to MG:
The North is that part of England north of Watford and south of Scotand, although there is an enclave around Birmingham and Coventry that likes to be called the Midlands.
The Cotswolds fit into the Midlands quite neatly but the inhabitants, particularly around Chipping Norton, like to think they live in the South and incidentally in the most important area in Britain.
The real South however is Brighton and Hastings, although the latter still thinks it's part of France retaining names like Herstmonceux for surrounding villages. The same applies to Dover and Folkestone which have Capel le Ferne between them.
The West is where the A303 goes. Dorset has an identity crisis though, being torn between the West and the South, so it really don't know where it be.
The East (known as East Anglia) is that huge area of flat boring land East of London, having no crags nor mountains in it, so it's irrelevant, being of no interest to climbers.
Hope that helps.
The North is that part of England north of Watford and south of Scotand, although there is an enclave around Birmingham and Coventry that likes to be called the Midlands.
The Cotswolds fit into the Midlands quite neatly but the inhabitants, particularly around Chipping Norton, like to think they live in the South and incidentally in the most important area in Britain.
The real South however is Brighton and Hastings, although the latter still thinks it's part of France retaining names like Herstmonceux for surrounding villages. The same applies to Dover and Folkestone which have Capel le Ferne between them.
The West is where the A303 goes. Dorset has an identity crisis though, being torn between the West and the South, so it really don't know where it be.
The East (known as East Anglia) is that huge area of flat boring land East of London, having no crags nor mountains in it, so it's irrelevant, being of no interest to climbers.
Hope that helps.
3
In reply to MG:
The North starts at the southern boundaries of Lancashire/(Greater Manchester) and Yorkshire/(Humberside).
Imaginary counties in brackets
The North starts at the southern boundaries of Lancashire/(Greater Manchester) and Yorkshire/(Humberside).
Imaginary counties in brackets
1
In reply to MG:
The North is the bit that starts with the Pennines. Anywhere south of the most southerly Pennine bits is Midlands till you get to the South!
The North is the bit that starts with the Pennines. Anywhere south of the most southerly Pennine bits is Midlands till you get to the South!
In reply to MG:
I'm from the Midlands, which we always took to include as far North as Derbyshire and Staffordhire, as far South East as Northamptonsire and as far west as Shropshire.
I'm from the Midlands, which we always took to include as far North as Derbyshire and Staffordhire, as far South East as Northamptonsire and as far west as Shropshire.
In reply to MG:
I think Derbyshire is generally considered to be north Midlands. Personally I would add Cheshire to the Midlands as well. The Mersey and the Humber seem a good marker to me, so generally a line slightly south of the M62.
I think Derbyshire is generally considered to be north Midlands. Personally I would add Cheshire to the Midlands as well. The Mersey and the Humber seem a good marker to me, so generally a line slightly south of the M62.
In reply to The New NickB:
That's pretty much what I would say (although I think it makes runs through Stanage, which would open up another debate).
As an alternative, how about the line where traditional houses start being predominantly stone rather than brick?
That's pretty much what I would say (although I think it makes runs through Stanage, which would open up another debate).
As an alternative, how about the line where traditional houses start being predominantly stone rather than brick?
In reply to MG:
I'm not sure that works north/south.
> As an alternative, how about the line where traditional houses start being predominantly stone rather than brick?
I'm not sure that works north/south.
In reply to MG:
In geographical terms, the Tees-Exe line is often used to split north and south. This fits quite well for relief, climate, agriculture types and in the past especially, human aspects like the balance between manufacturing and service sectors.
In geographical terms, the Tees-Exe line is often used to split north and south. This fits quite well for relief, climate, agriculture types and in the past especially, human aspects like the balance between manufacturing and service sectors.
1
In reply to MG:
The North-South divide isn't a straight line, it's further South in the middle than it is at the coasts. This puts Manchester and Sheffield in the South but parts of The Peak in the North.
The North-South divide isn't a straight line, it's further South in the middle than it is at the coasts. This puts Manchester and Sheffield in the South but parts of The Peak in the North.
In reply to Tom Last:
There's a bit of confusion here. The Watford Gap is often regarded as being the start of the Midlands. However to the stereotypical Londoner who doesn't realise there's anything north of London except Yorkshire and Scotland, Watford (the first major town which is really distinct from Greater London, yet is still closely linked as a commuter town) has ended up being regarded as where London ends and the wild and lawless north begins.
> The saying goes in North London/Home Counties that The North is everywhere past Watford!
There's a bit of confusion here. The Watford Gap is often regarded as being the start of the Midlands. However to the stereotypical Londoner who doesn't realise there's anything north of London except Yorkshire and Scotland, Watford (the first major town which is really distinct from Greater London, yet is still closely linked as a commuter town) has ended up being regarded as where London ends and the wild and lawless north begins.
1
1
1
In reply to Trevers:
As the stereotypical Londoner is likely to have been born anywhere but London, I'd suggest that in actual fact, Londoners are far more aware of the geography of the UK than any other area.
If you ask someone from Yorkshire what's South of London, the chances are they'll miss out whole counties. I live in the South East, South of London, but I do not live in the Home Counties. Here be monsters indeed.
It could be, sorry I'm going to be rational, that your perception of UK geography is influenced by where you live, where you've been and a whole manner of localised prejudice.
As the stereotypical Londoner is likely to have been born anywhere but London, I'd suggest that in actual fact, Londoners are far more aware of the geography of the UK than any other area.
If you ask someone from Yorkshire what's South of London, the chances are they'll miss out whole counties. I live in the South East, South of London, but I do not live in the Home Counties. Here be monsters indeed.
It could be, sorry I'm going to be rational, that your perception of UK geography is influenced by where you live, where you've been and a whole manner of localised prejudice.
Post edited at 13:53
2
In reply to Trevers:
There is indeed some confusion.
The Watford Gap is not related to that Watford but a small village further north going by the same name. It is gap in the local hills through which a variety of transport links run.
There is indeed some confusion.
The Watford Gap is not related to that Watford but a small village further north going by the same name. It is gap in the local hills through which a variety of transport links run.
1
1
In reply to XXXX:
I know Yorkshire folk are a bit thick, but which counties do you think they would miss out?
A Lancastrian
I know Yorkshire folk are a bit thick, but which counties do you think they would miss out?
A Lancastrian
In reply to earlsdonwhu:
Or rather the services which were named after it. Which was/is the first services reached going north on the M1 from London.
Using motorways as a handy measure. Anyone know when the signs stop pointing to "The North"?
> The Watford Gap is not related to that Watford but a small village further north going by the same name.
Or rather the services which were named after it. Which was/is the first services reached going north on the M1 from London.
Using motorways as a handy measure. Anyone know when the signs stop pointing to "The North"?
In reply to XXXX:
I was mocking the idea of the London stereotype, not agreeing with it! It's all a bit tongue in cheek. I'm from Watford (not Watford Gap) and I've spent what feels like half my life pointing out the difference (to people from all over the country!)
> As the stereotypical Londoner is likely to have been born anywhere but London, I'd suggest that in actual fact, Londoners are far more aware of the geography of the UK than any other area.
> If you ask someone from Yorkshire what's South of London, the chances are they'll miss out whole counties. I live in the South East, South of London, but I do not live in the Home Counties. Here be monsters indeed.
> It could be, sorry I'm going to be rational, that your perception of UK geography is influenced by where you live, where you've been and a whole manner of localised prejudice.
>
I was mocking the idea of the London stereotype, not agreeing with it! It's all a bit tongue in cheek. I'm from Watford (not Watford Gap) and I've spent what feels like half my life pointing out the difference (to people from all over the country!)
1
In reply to KevinD:
No, but at a railway station in darkest Cornwall there is a sign for trains to Exeter and Beyond. Real frontier country is Devon.
No, but at a railway station in darkest Cornwall there is a sign for trains to Exeter and Beyond. Real frontier country is Devon.
In reply to Al Evans:
I'd say it's just a little bit south of that, the border being (very!) roughly Lincoln - Chesterfield - Bakewell - Longnor - Congleton - Crewe.
> The North definitely starts at Sheffield, all below that is the East Midlands.
I'd say it's just a little bit south of that, the border being (very!) roughly Lincoln - Chesterfield - Bakewell - Longnor - Congleton - Crewe.
In reply to The New NickB:
My experience is that many people think London is on the south coast. The idea of there being two whole counties between the city and the sea is a surprise.
Sussex is the one I was thinking of, being as that's where I'm from.
My experience is that many people think London is on the south coast. The idea of there being two whole counties between the city and the sea is a surprise.
Sussex is the one I was thinking of, being as that's where I'm from.
In reply to KevinD:
Not so much motorways (I think the M9 at Dunblane is the most northerly motorway in the UK) but there are signs at least as far north as Inverness that indicate "The North"
> Using motorways as a handy measure. Anyone know when the signs stop pointing to "The North"?
Not so much motorways (I think the M9 at Dunblane is the most northerly motorway in the UK) but there are signs at least as far north as Inverness that indicate "The North"
In reply to MG:
Agree
Which just leaves the midlands as a buffer zone
> The North
> I'll propose a boundary from just north of Chesterfield to just south of Manchester for the first.
> I'll propose a boundary from just north of Chesterfield to just south of Manchester for the first.
Agree
> The West Country
Draw a line from Swanage to just north of Bristol - anywhere with decent climbing in the southern half > The Home Counties
Obsolete term - anything within commuter range is just outer london - draw an arc from Southampton through Swindon, Peterbrough etc to the wash. Flat and pointlessWhich just leaves the midlands as a buffer zone
In reply to XXXX:
Being picky isnt that two? East and West Sussex.
Even with that only one county separates it (Kent) since that falls under the south coast as well.
> Sussex is the one I was thinking of, being as that's where I'm from.
Being picky isnt that two? East and West Sussex.
Even with that only one county separates it (Kent) since that falls under the south coast as well.
In reply to KevinD:
Very picky and missing the point. Yorkshire is more than one county too, no?
My point is that people's knowledge of parts of the uk in which they don't live is generally shit.
Very picky and missing the point. Yorkshire is more than one county too, no?
My point is that people's knowledge of parts of the uk in which they don't live is generally shit.
1
In reply to XXXX:
Nothing wrong with my knowledge, I just don't care ! It may be over 50 miles from the Thames to to the south coast, but I still regard Brighton as being a suburb of London
> My point is that people's knowledge of parts of the uk in which they don't live is generally shit.
Nothing wrong with my knowledge, I just don't care ! It may be over 50 miles from the Thames to to the south coast, but I still regard Brighton as being a suburb of London
2
In reply to XXXX:
Have you genuinely met someone who thinks London is on the South Coast?
I can't say I have ever met anyone who has never heard of Sussex.
I would say that most people are more aware of the geography of the South East than anywhere else in England, with the exception of the area that they live in. I could place every county in England on a map, but I have admit I would struggle the Welsh counties.
> My experience is that many people think London is on the south coast. The idea of there being two whole counties between the city and the sea is a surprise.
Have you genuinely met someone who thinks London is on the South Coast?
> Sussex is the one I was thinking of, being as that's where I'm from.
I can't say I have ever met anyone who has never heard of Sussex.
I would say that most people are more aware of the geography of the South East than anywhere else in England, with the exception of the area that they live in. I could place every county in England on a map, but I have admit I would struggle the Welsh counties.
In reply to XXXX:
It has a lot stronger identity though than most counties, goes back to the East Anglia bit. All the bods I know from East and West Sussex tend to make it clear which one they are from, if they are not just stating they are from a specific city. Not so much for the Yorkshire folk
> Very picky and missing the point. Yorkshire is more than one county too, no?
It has a lot stronger identity though than most counties, goes back to the East Anglia bit. All the bods I know from East and West Sussex tend to make it clear which one they are from, if they are not just stating they are from a specific city. Not so much for the Yorkshire folk
In reply to Bob:
There are signs here in Shetland that indicate "The North".
> ... there are signs at least as far north as Inverness that indicate "The North"
There are signs here in Shetland that indicate "The North".
In reply to earlsdonwhu:
The Tees-Exe line is a reasonably useful tool to separate (generally) upland Britain from (generally) lowland Britain, rather than the north from the south.
JW
The Tees-Exe line is a reasonably useful tool to separate (generally) upland Britain from (generally) lowland Britain, rather than the north from the south.
JW
In reply to Bob:
I see Stoke as being more North than Midlands. The accent particularly is more northern than midland, as is the heritage and mindset.
Not being stroppy about it, if it's deemed not, I couldn't give a shit
I see Stoke as being more North than Midlands. The accent particularly is more northern than midland, as is the heritage and mindset.
Not being stroppy about it, if it's deemed not, I couldn't give a shit
Post edited at 20:55
1
In reply to MG:
If you divide the length of England into 3 equal parts, the north starts somewhere around Ripon. South of that is either the midlands or the south but from my point of view, anywhere south of Newcastle is the south.
If you divide the length of England into 3 equal parts, the north starts somewhere around Ripon. South of that is either the midlands or the south but from my point of view, anywhere south of Newcastle is the south.
In reply to Chris the Tall:
Proving your knowledge is shit
> Nothing wrong with my knowledge, I just don't care ! It may be over 50 miles from the Thames to to the south coast, but I still regard Brighton as being a suburb of London
Proving your knowledge is shit
1
In reply to MG:
Traditional houses in Sheffield are made from gritstone, by traditional I mean (mostly) pre industrial revolution growth of the city, where it's farm buildings and absorbed tiny villages and small lines of cottages which are made from the stone, and grand houses too. I don't know if it's because it's gritstone, but it quite pains me to see it in skips occasionally if somebody is having work done on their home. 'Do you know how long that took to form?' I don't know if it's from climbing on it or just knowing that it'll only exist once, but it seems a shame somehow to put it in the skip.
> That's pretty much what I would say (although I think it makes runs through Stanage, which would open up another debate).
> As an alternative, how about the line where traditional houses start being predominantly stone rather than brick?
Traditional houses in Sheffield are made from gritstone, by traditional I mean (mostly) pre industrial revolution growth of the city, where it's farm buildings and absorbed tiny villages and small lines of cottages which are made from the stone, and grand houses too. I don't know if it's because it's gritstone, but it quite pains me to see it in skips occasionally if somebody is having work done on their home. 'Do you know how long that took to form?' I don't know if it's from climbing on it or just knowing that it'll only exist once, but it seems a shame somehow to put it in the skip.
Post edited at 01:22
In reply to MG:
Or where beer starts to be served flat?
> [...]
> As an alternative, how about the line where traditional houses start being predominantly stone rather than brick?
Or where beer starts to be served flat?
In reply to The New NickB:
Yes I have. But I've also met someone who thought cities were named alphabetically from north to south so that's not saying much.
Yes I have. But I've also met someone who thought cities were named alphabetically from north to south so that's not saying much.
In reply to KevinD:
Well living in Sussex as I do, people rarely differentiate. History isn't my strong point but I'd suspect Sussex is an older, more historic county than Yorkshire so maybe the identity thing is just the curse of youth.
Well living in Sussex as I do, people rarely differentiate. History isn't my strong point but I'd suspect Sussex is an older, more historic county than Yorkshire so maybe the identity thing is just the curse of youth.
In reply to MG:
To make things easier, why not split it as the following:
Yorkshire.
Everywhere else.
To make things easier, why not split it as the following:
Yorkshire.
Everywhere else.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Fri Night Vid Finding Focus - Life Behind The Lens of a Climbing Photographer
This week's Friday Night Video is a portrait of a prolific climbing photographer from Wedge Climbing. Sam Pratt is well known in both the outdoor and competition scene but if you haven't heard of him, you've likely seen...
26 Apr
Loading Notifications...