UKC

Hello

I have been climbing for about 9-10 years and I have become increasingly frustrated with my inability to improve at it. I currently boulder indoors at 5+ and very occasionally 6a. This is pretty much the same level of difficulty I could climb when I bought my first pair of climbing shoes. I do only slightly better on routes: 6b or 6b+ when feeling strong. Why am I writing this? I want to find out whether there are people like me and how they coped with it. I am taking this very badly at the moment.

In reply to Kirill:

I have climbed for about 30 years and for a long time in the middle of that, I was on a performance plateau like you. What got me off of it was a) booking a couple of coaching sessions and getting my climbing strengths and weaknesses properly examined, and given pointers in what I needed to work on to improve, and b) actually trying to train for climbing (i.e. structuring my sessions), rather than simply turning up a the wall and doing a pile of boulder problems or climbing a few routes.

Have a hunt on here for articles on training for climbing (there are loads) and if you don't mind spending some money, I can thoroughly recommend using a coach as a way of really kick-starting that improvement curve.

In reply to Kirill:

This reminds me of an old but excellent article by shark - http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=856

The question is, do you want to do things differently to improve? Do you want to do sessions that aren't like the fun climbing sessions that you're used to and focus on elements of climbing that you're not so good at?

If so, then you will have plenty of strategies to use to improve (structured sessions being a good one) and your years of climbing behind you will definitely be a good foundation on which to build.

As soon as I stop climbing regularly (i.e. for me, less than once a week or fortnight) I get to the levels you say 5+/V2ish bouldering, 6b/6b+ish. I think they are for me the natural levels of my ability, with anything on top only achieved by climbing more often.

In reply to Stuart S:

Thanks for replying.

I must admit I have a prejudice against coaches. I see them as "them", the people that are good at climbing who can't possibly understand "us" the talentless. Can a couple of coaching sessions can really make a difference? Don't we all "know" our own weaknesses anyway? Mine for example is that I can't hold to small holds.

In reply to Kirill:

Hi,

I've been similarly stuck over the years. Personally, I found that what was holding me back the most was the frustration that I wasn't getting anywhere. When I made myself chill out and just enjoy climbing I started to do it enough to get stronger, fast. I'm back in a rut because I've had a lot of time out due to illness/stress but I'm trying not to let it get to me. I'm encouraging myself to climb for the love of climbing, rather than worry about what grade I can climb at.

What do you find you struggle with, and what do you find easy? My problem is my head. I can't make myself commit to moves at the top of a bouldering wall, yet when I'm outdoors on nice rock and a lovely day I'll commit to a crux move almost as far above my gear as I would be above the crashmat. How often do you climb? When I was going to the bouldering wall twice a week I came on amazingly (started at V0- and ended up getting a V2 at my fittest), though that's partly because I was successfully keeping my weight down at that point. I've had some time off and now when I go I'm happy to get a V1.

My Dad (who got me into climbing) keeps telling me to find a traverse wall, and to stay on it, back and forth, until I can't hold on anymore. That got him from VS up to about E2/3 in the space of a season.

I'm sorry you feel like you're not getting anywhere, but pretty much every climber I know has had a period of feeling like you do! I hope you get past it soon.

In reply to RockSteady:

I haven't seen that article before. Great read! Thanks.

In reply to Kirill:
Vary your venues, even if it's extra travel etc.. the bigger the range, the better. You'll be forced to do different routes, different moves... so that when you eventually head back to your 'home' wall every 5th or 6th time (or longer ideally) you'll be climbing differently and potentially better.

Whether it's strength, balance, coordination, endurance... your body won't improve any of these unless you give it a reason to, you need to challenge them individually.

In reply to Lornajkelly:

Thanks for the kind words. I don't think it's my head that's the problem, at least not when bouldering indoors. Our wall have very soft mats. On one occasion I barndoored off an arete, somehow managed to flip upside down in the air and landed straight on my head. Thanks to the softness of the mats I was absolutely fine. So I am not worried about falling. It's very different outdoors where I become a jibberring wreck as soon as I climb 6 inches above my last piece of gear.

In reply to summo:
Yes I am already doing it, rotating between 3 walls, although only the "home" wall is bouldering, the other 2 are routes. But if I was to train "structually" then perhaps sticking to one wall would be better?

In reply to Kirill:


My answer is probably "no we don't". Coaches wouldn't be able to promise those massive in-a-session improvements if people already knew how to identify and address their own weaknesses. If youve plateaued for that long you're probably either not identifying your weaknesses correctly or not training them correctly!

In reply to Kirill:

Anybody who climbs with me can tell you how much I lace a route! I can lead a 10m pitch and run out of quickdraws. I totally get that!

In reply to Kirill:


Are you sure? It might appear to you that this is your primary weakness - but, hypothetically, the reason you can't hold onto those small holds could be due to poor footwork or body positioning. Raw finger strength is probably not a primary necessity at the kind of grades you're climbing.

Of course, I am just guessing, but these are the things that a coach could probably help you with.

In reply to Kirill:

First of all a standard of 6b or 6b plus is commendable. Many people that I know have struggled to maintain that over a large period of time.

Well done on keeping it up.

In terms of improving I think my best guess is that it is likely that you don't jump on stuff you can't do at the present moment. How about a whole few months of warm up and then attempting 6cs and 7as? You don't need to complete them. Just to try hard. It will be excellent fall practice and strength and technique training.

If you do that long enough it will be impossible to fail to improve.

Your warm up should be technique focused as well. On absolute jugs practice those perfect foot placements, flags and drop knees.

Enjoy climbing at your limit, it's an amazing feeling and getting your first 6c often feels not that much different to getting your first 7a plus.

Good luck, you are in a lucky position to make quick gains to your level and if you persevere it will inevitably happen.

In reply to Kirill:

Why the need to improve? At that grade you could spend your whole life climbing all over the UK and world having amazing experiences. I never got above VS (HVS once) and had a great time climbing. Yes if I'd made the effort i could maybe have climbed harder, but as it is I have many many great memories of great days on great routes.

In reply to Kirill:

I expect to get plenty of dislike for this, but could you consider being fed up or miserable or p#ssed off.

Depression is a seriously unpleasant condition and using the word the way you have trivialises it.

Thanks and sorry for the rant.

As for getting better I can't help you, I am a punter and eat too much cake to care.

In reply to Kirill:

Coaching may help. Sure, climbing buddies may be good at pointing out weaknesses and areas for improvement but you need those people who don't feel uncomfortable to sometimes be brutally honest. If you don't have somebody who is able to give you useful feedback then it can be difficult.

A good coach in anything shouldn't make the people they are helping feel inferior; people who do that I think are only doing that to serve their own ego by making others feel bad. A coach is there to use their knowledge and experience to help and guide others to improve and get better.

I do think at times you can be your own worst enemy. I found my worst enemy was overthinking my climbs. I can think about it in how to best to make my way up a route and what to consider along the route but then I started to overthink. I was worrying far too much about committing to some moves, moves that I knew I was capable of because I'd done the very same move on that exact route or for whatever reason just didn't feel confident in my feet or my hands when I had absolutely no reason to be doubtful, plus I was then getting really uncomfortable with falling. What I began to do was go and do something different and a bit more difficult so I went to the overhanging wall which has our more difficult routes and just had a go at climbing up that not following a set route just trying to make my way up using whatever holds I wanted, the holds are mostly positive but they aren't always big holds. The overhang from the start was uncomfortable and it gets more difficult for me because it angles out slightly more as you get higher up; I'm used to overhangs where the angle doesn't change so when I have to transition from one section to another it's weird and challenging for me to reach the holds on the next section as my body has to move in a way that it's not used to. If I come off I swing out away from the wall quite a bit. The first time that happened I hated it! Once I went back to the other routes then I just felt a bit more at ease as I had been putting myself in a situation that was a bit uncomfortable at first. The big holds felt much bigger and I felt I could do more with them as I'd had to work with holds that were smaller or had limited options for how to use them. I had to find different ways of using my feet; earlier this week I was using my heel in a move something I've never done but that success made a huge difference. I've shut the mind chatter off as well, in part it was down to just chatting in between climbs about normal stuff and not over analysing my climbs.

In reply to Kirill:

I think it's really hard to get above 6b+ without climbing more than once a week, I think it largely depends on how much time you have to practice and if you have anyone better than you to help you improve. I'd recommend finding someone climbing a grade harder than you, let them lead and then try seconding their routes - ask for help on how to make the moves and don't give up...

In reply to Kirill:

Climb more. Three-Four sessions a week will see your performance shoot through the roof. Be prepared to work hard. Be prepared to get pumped. Be prepared to push back the negativity and just enjoy the motion of climbing. You will get strong. A little self belief goes a long way.

P.S. I'll second on the 'depressed'. Not that it's a taboo word, but it's a description for a serious illness that shouldn't be taken lightly. Peace!

In reply to marsbar:

As far as I'm aware (and my dictionary), you can feel depressed without it being a clinical condition, and the use here is quite reasonable.

In reply to MischaHY:


Totally agree.

[To the OP]


Hmm... interesting. I've climbed for 49 years. Two of my (really serious!) weaknesses were pointed out to me recently.



Then get on 'em (carefully!)

Mick

P.S. Re coaching. What athlete, what tennis player wouldn't have a coach? Didn't Neil Gresham, the doyen of coaches, have Stevie Haston as a coach recently? And I think Stevie had a coach himself?? Don't really know Neil but Stevie is pretty much Emperor of the 'No Bullshit' planet. I'd be amazed if climbing coaching doesn't work (most of the time).

In reply to JuneBob:

http://www.smh.com.au/national/dont-trivialise-mental-illness-commission-wa...

Well this is how I feel about it. I find it disrespectful. I expect I'm not the only one. But its up to individuals if they want to listen or ignore it.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

Yes I know there are many climbs outdoors to enjoy at my current level, but I still would like to improve so that I could enjoy my indoor sessions too.

In reply to marsbar:

I apologize for using the word "depressed" I didn't mean to cause any offense.

In reply to Kirill:

Thank you.

In reply to Kirill:



But do you why you can't hold onto small holds? Maybe a coach could show you. It's not necessarily that expensive.

In reply to Kirill:

Firstly I'd agree that a bit of coaching can be very useful. Like Mick Ward (above) I've been climbing 49 years but a couple of years ago had a short master class session and learned one thing very useful which changed my climbing style and made me much more controlled. I won't pretend it has made my grades shoot up but that could just be my bus pass weighing me down.

On a lighter note (lighter? who am I kidding?) if plateauing depresses you, wait till you start going backwards. I used to lead E3, and these days I'm chuffed to get up a 6a+ cleanly. But there's still an awful lot of good rock and brilliant days out there even at that grade.

In reply to Kirill:

Get hold of a copy of "Nine out of ten climbers make the same mistakes", by Dave MacLeod.

In reply to MischaHY:

Unfortunately my tendons would not be able to take 3 or 4 indoor session per week. I have tried it in the past and it hadn't ended well. I can just about do 2.

In reply to Skip:

I have heard it recommended before. I guess it won't hurt.

In reply to Kirill:


You may find that a coach can help there. They are not going to give you new tendons but they may be able to point out faults in your footwork that will ease some of the strain on your fingers. They may also be able to suggest a more varied routine that allows you to work different parts of your body in rotation

In reply to Kirill:

I've got a copy if you want to borrow it.

A coaching session might be worth a punt, though - I went on one and got a load of useful advice. I've not really followed up on it, but you're probably more motivated than me. Even if a coach just tells you what you already knew, you might find that having paid someone else to confirm it gives you the impetus to actually take some action. Also, apart from a bit of cash, you haven't really lost anything if it turns out to be useless.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I get your point about athletes benefiting from coaching. But in my case I am afraid that the coach will just take one look at me and will tell me right there and then that I am hopeless. And that would be very difficult for me to get over.

In reply to Kirill:

I'm beginning to sound like a marketing manager for coaches but the thought does occur that if Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi still think a coach is useful to them I can't imagine any of us on here are so expert that we would not benefit from a few tips and pointers.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

Thanks Dave. I would like to borrow it.

In reply to Kirill:


Perversely that would actually be good news. The more you are doing wrong the more things you can put right and the greater the opportunities to improve.

In reply to Kirill:


No good coach would do that. Apart from anything else, they won't get any business if they do!
They would be saying try doing this instead of that.

A suggestion for you is to work on your footwork and make sure you are using your legs to push up, not your arms to pull up. Find an easy slab, with some 3s and 4s and ignore the routes. Using any holds of any colour to start with, climb to the top without using one of your hands at all. You can use that arm for balance, but that hand does not touch the all. Progress this by doing the same with the other arm, then by doing a very easy route this way.

Another thing to try is climbing with your eyes closed. It helps you feel the movements. Again, try this on an easy wall.

Still on an easy wall, big holds, climb up a little way, find a comfortable place to stand without holding on. Without putting your feet on any other holds than the 2 you are on, move about, see how far you can reach up, sideways, down, see how many ways you can move your legs, find some hand holds and stand on one leg, swap your feet and generally see just how big your range of movement is.

When you have done some of these, find a route that is maybe an easy 5. Something easy for you. Climb it as beautifully, as smoothly as you can. If the wall isn't busy, climb it again, but this time, pretend you are a ballerina! Or climb it again pretending to be a small excited child, as fast as you can.

Going back to something easier might seem odd, but by making it easier you can refine your skills and then take them back to push on through something harder.

In reply to Kirill:

To be honest it sounds a lot like you've already decided you're incurable.

If you're sure a coach will tell you you're hopeless, that says to me that you know there's things you're bad at but your ego doesn't want them pointing out. And if your tendons can't cope with building gradually into 3-4 sessions a week that's definitely a sign that something in your training is wrong. Ultimately, its up to you how or even whether you address those things. Wanting to get better has to be matched with some actual action to be anything more than wishfuk thinking.

In reply to Kirill:


Why would they? Hopeless compared to what? We're all hopeless compared with Adam Ondra or Alex Megos. The guy I climb with will be climbing with Alex Megos round about now. You think AM is going to turn up his nose at him? Of course he's not! This is life. We're all learning (and hopefully from each other).



This sounds like low self-esteem. Welcome to the human race! But being a better climber doesn't somehow make you a more worthy person. Being a better climber is... being a better climber. That's it! But the struggle to become a better climber - or a better anything - ah the struggle... that's what makes you a stronger person.

But you don't need to be a stronger person to be a worthy person. You're already worthy - you don't need to do any more.

Mick

P.S. Anyway, if you climb F6b/+, that's already harder than most people.

In reply to marsbar:

Well this wouldn't be UKC without someone going out of their way to be offended.

In reply to radddogg:

Thank you for your interesting and helpful comment.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tud07455/images/Classic_S3.jpg

In reply to marsbar:

That's funny as I wasn't trying to be either

In reply to Kirill:
Ok, from a quick scan of your log book, I'd say your problem is your old skool approach to climbing. If you basically go out climbing and climb VS/HVS/E1 type routes o/s every time then that's all you'll ever be able to do. The traditional o/s mentality is holding you back. I did the same for years and years. Embrace working routes. Make redpointing at the wall the basis of your training. If as you say you can manage around 6b/6b+ then can I suggest a typical session... Warm-up on five progressively harder routes you are fairly sure you'll climb cleanly (not necessarily easily) i.e. 5, 5, 5+, 6a, 6a+. Then rest for 15 minutes then try a F6c. Climb it to the top, even if you have to pull past the hard bits, rest for 25 minutes and try again. Try the same 6c THREE times every session until it's done. Even if it feels nails to start with, little by little you'll wear it down. When you figure out how to do a wee crux, hang on the rope and repeat it a couple more times to get it wired. When you've completed a few more 6c's, start on a 6c+. The important thing here is having THREE go's on something you find hard, THAT IS the training. Don't give up after one or two goes because it's hard, THREE is the magic number. Also, 6 weekly sessions of 4x4 training two or three times a year is time very well spent. Good luck.

In reply to JLS:

I think your analysis of my approach to climbing is spot on. I try something once or twice and move on. I will try the THREE go's system, thank you!

In reply to Kirill:

Hi Kirill, I've been trying to work harder stuff of late instead just going for the onsight with everything. I've enjoyed the experience surprisingly more than expected! In fact I've never got so obsessive about a route than one I've been trying recently. Three visits and counting and still can't quite clean it on lead. It's driving me slightly crazy to honest but it's definately giving me something to focus my training towards. In fact I don't think I've trained as hard as I have in recent weeks as a consequence. I'd give it a go. Pick a hard route that really interests you and that you won't get bored of repeatedly trying. Forget about 'blowing the onsight', which was always my reason for not trying some routes. You've onsighted E2s so pick a well protected, sustained E3. Something that you can work without worrying about a queue climbers behind you. It's also surprisingly pleasant to climb a route with just the gear you need rather than taking everything!

This is all great advice. I'm going to get on it myself. Thanks all!

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Thanks Lee. Unfortunately I don't get to get out regularly enough to make use of your advice. I was asking about indoor climbing as this is what I get to do mostly (reality of living in Cambridge).

In reply to Kirill:

I think the question you need to ask is why you climb, and then maybe work towards those reasons. So if you do it for the adventure, then it may be worth trying to get out on more adventurous routes, which may involve more travelling. If its a performance gain you aim for then structured training may be more beneficial.

I suppose its one of the downsides to climbing that everything is so graded that its very noticeable if your climbing well or not!

In reply to JLS:

The three goes redpointing system is worth a try. If you can onsight 6b+ you can probably redpoint 7a if you work at it. Would that be a motivating goal? Only way to find out is to try one.

Thank you all for your support and advice. I am still remaining sceptical about coaching being the right thing for me, but I will try to climb/train more systematically and will give redpointing a go. As for bouldering, I think I will give it a pause for a few months. I am sure that with time I will feel better and return to it.

In reply to Kirill:


People who get a diagnosis of some sort or another like to feel that they're special, which they are in a sense because though a MH diagnosis can bring stigma in certain quarters, it also brings certain privileges and access to lots of resources in the shape of support, treatment and money. I know because I have a sibling, a child and a cousin who are all in that place. Because of that, some of them guard their status with as much jealousy as old-time trades-unionists pursued demarkation disputes.

But actually, the word 'depressed' dates back hundreds of years, before we even had a concept of mental health. Depression is 'discrete not categoric' meaning that it's on a continuum, not an 'either you are or you're not' thing, which is an illusion that the artificial concept of 'diagnosis' creates. Lots of people are depressed without going anywhere near a doctor, and its also possible to be a little bit depressed as well as a lot depressed.

So don't let anyone else tell you how you're feeling or make you apologise for saying how you feel

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:


That advice suits some but not others. Personally, I agree with the above and I love doing some really easy climbs, or repeating others because they're fun. What's the point of working really hard to learn do to something if you don't then enjoy the benefits? But not all people have that approach. One teenager I took trad climbing for the first time last summer (he'd already done a lot of bouldering) went to live in the USA for three months and did nothing but climb there, and soon came to outstrip pretty much everyone I know. Now, he's given it all up because it doesn't make him feel scared anymore, so he's taken to kayaking instead, which still does. There's nothing wrong with that approach either, provided you pay attention to safety.

I'm a big fan of "the 5 'S's" (spelling pedants please go away). They are, in no particular order:
- Strength
- Stamina
- Suppleness
- Skills
- Psychology

You need to pay attention to all of those but if you feel that 'skills' are a weakness and would repay some extra work, then you can give it a try, see if getting some help makes a difference - if it does, great, if it doesn't consider another of these five things. If you have a problem with coaches, look around for someone good who isn't a professional who's willing to help, or better yet, find several. If that doesn't work, read books or watch videos. If you're motivated you'll find a way, and if you can't find the motivation, take a look at the psychology.

In reply to Andy Morley:


Yes, thank you. That's exactly how I used the word, in its colloquial meaning, not as a MH diagnosis.

In reply to Andy Morley:




This makes a lot of sense! Thank you!

In reply to Andy Morley:

Fwiw the only money I get is my pay cheque and the only support is my GP. I cant access nhs therapy because it only happens when I'm at work.

Im sorry your family are like that but don't assume we are all the same.

In reply to Kirill:

I think there's some very good advice on here. In particular the JLS plan and studying and putting into practice the ideas in 9 out 10 Climbers.


I think you are right here. There is a big difference between having one session with a coach and being coached for an entire season the way top athletes are. I was chatting with a climbing coach recently. He takes his job seriously and studies books on coaching to be the best he can. He was saying how it wasn't possible to do that much for someone in one session because improvement comes gradually over time. He could certainly help people climb harder but this was more through tactics, encouragement and being positive. They can identify weaknesses but fixing such problems again takes time, whether its learning new movement patterns, or getting stronger fingers there's usually no quick fix.

BTW the subtitle of 9 out 10 Climbers is "Advice for the self-coached climber".

In reply to marsbar:


Ask your GP for a referral to IAPT, or refer yourself. It sounds like it might be the sort of thing they are good at.

The following website's about OCD, but it gives a good explanation of the IAPT self-referral process which is the same for any of the issues they cover, which are typically anxieties and depressions:

http://www.ocduk.org/iapt-self-referral

In reply to JLS:

Right, so the last night I went to a wall and tried the same 6c three times. Boy it was exhausting, no wonder I have been avoiding doing that sort of thing in the past. I was completely destroyed after the 3rd attempt. Perhaps I made it unnecessarily harder for myself as the rests between tries were 10-15 min rather than 25, so I guess I need to work out how to organize the session to make longer rests. Also between first 2 attempts I climbed a non-strenuous 5+, which probably I should have refrained from. Anyways, I have now loads of food for thought on how to fine-tune my sessions and feeling very optimistic. Thanks again for your advice!

Kirill

In reply to Kirill:

Good stuff. The rests are very important, so full 25 minutes and definately no easy climbing during the REST period! Generally, you'll feel good to go after 10 or 15 minutes but half way up the next go you'll be wishing you'd rested longer. It does feel counter intuitive that spending an hour of your valuable climbing time doing nothing will help you get better. Climbing training is all about pulling on holds and resting. The tricky bit is working out how long and how hard to pull and how long to rest between the efforts. Stick with it, it will work.

In reply to Kirill:


I have a Nordictrack ski machine which is absolutely brilliant for building up and maintaining stamina through the winter rains and whenever else I don't feel like going out cycling, and it works my arms too. You can still find them on eBay for not very much money, they're made of wood and iron so they look more like furniture and they fold up pretty small. Brilliant solution for my needs!

This site won't let me post links to eBay, but there's one on sale there right now for £50.00

In reply to Kirill:

I can relate to this. I max out at 6b and the fear of climbing above gear at my limit is scary. I had one of the coaches at my climbing wall film and advise me on a couple of sessions which helped but after some chatter I was told that if I want to really smash the grades, a mix of bouldering, trad and indoor rope every week would be the only way to improve. It really came down to what was motivating me, was it the love of just climbing or the drive to get better. Theres a delicate balance between the 2.

In reply to Andy Morley:

Thank you. It appears I can self refer and they are open until 8pm now. So things do change for the better sometimes.