UKC

Just took a beginner out, as a favour, and I carefully didn't place any gear deep into cracks or otherwise "hard" to extract. We did a 4-pitch VDiff, Avon.

He still failed to get 3 pieces out and, sadly, one of them was a cam which is £45- £55 to replace.

He'd clearly wiggled it further in, though he protested that he hadn't , but I'd not sunk it that deep. I forgive him - he's a novice at trad - but should I ask for 50-50 split on the replacement cam? All the gear & ropes etc. & even helmets! were mine.... and I was doing him a favour. What are the acceptable ethics of gear replacement? He pays the lot, cos he's crap at getting it out? Or I pay the lot, cos I misjudged it somehow (his inexperience, etc) ? Or 50-50? Or case by case basis?

The other 2 pieces, I abbed down & got out myself. One took 1 second, the other took 5 seconds....... sigh.

Thanks.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Can you not find an experienced partner and go and retrieve the gear?
Other than that 50-50 would be fair.

J

In reply to Phil Murray:

Your profile says you climb E1 and f6b+ and you placed cams on a V.Diff with a novice second? Personally I wouldn't have even carried them so I think it's partly your fault. I certainly would not ask for the full price but I might sound him out to with regard to going 50-50. Did he know how much they cost?

Al

In reply to Phil Murray:

Are you saying you couldn't get the cam out yourself on ab?

In reply to jasonC abroad:

Good idea - tho I spent 10 minutes wrestling with it - it moved barely at all in that time - he'd somehow got it well and truly jammed! I *could* enlist an engineer-type mate of mine who climbs harder than me too & has climbed 30 years... good idea... I'll text him now.... anyone else in Bristol fancy helping me? I'm 25 mins cycle away from Sea walls for the rest of today......

In reply to Phil Murray:
Why didn't you get the third piece when you abbed down? Edit: answered above.

As for what level of financial responsibility the second as, I don't think we can answer that. It would depend exactly on the nature of the relationship between you. Were you expecting him to be able to take gear out, or not? If you didn't expect him to be able to remove gear competently, and you didn't show him how to do it (or you successfully failed to teach him whether that is your fault or his), how could he be expected to get gear out? Was it clearly a one-sided relationship between you (the expert) and him (the total novice)?

Personally if I took a club novice out and took them up some trad, I might get a bit annoyed if they failed to get any gear out but I would not be completely surprised and just get on with the abseil. I wouldn't ask them for any money. If on the other hand I was taking them out as more of an equal, as a climber (even if they don't lead trad) then I might hope they offered to replace something if for example they managed to get a well-placed cam completely buried in a crack...

In reply to Phil Murray:

50/50. Explain to him that's the accepted, albeit unwritten, protocol in the climbing World - it is in my experience. I bet he'll feel better about it if he's making a contribution. That's if you can't nip back and get it as the other poster has suggested.

In reply to Phil Murray:

I lost a cam in the top crack of King Kong at Wintours under similar circumstances almost 20 years ago. I'm an ex-pat Yorkshireman so I'm not over it yet.

Al

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Nope - it was bad!!!!

In reply to Phil Murray:
There's a trick.
Pull the triggers very hard and push the cam deeper into the crack.

In reply to all:

I've climbed with him before & at that time, explained how to extract cams. On the top pitch, I placed another cam, very carefully, and he couldn't get that out either!!! he's got some sort of .... hopelessness factor going on, in fact I probably wont' take him trad again, though sport should be fine.....

Yeah I wish I hadn't placed it now ! hindsight & all that .... could have run it out.

He's just sent me a message saying he's happy to pay 50%, so no animosity will result from this. Meanwhile the seed of going back & trying to get it out has been planted. purple tape, friend 4 I think. Yes we climbers do like to keep hold of our gear.....

Thanks for all the replies!

In reply to zimpara:
"There's a trick. Pull the triggers very hard and push the cam deeper into the crack."

- really? you're not winding me up? would it then pivot deeper in & then (maybe) come out.....?

Anyone in Bristol reading this?

In reply to Phil Murray:

If you were on Morpheous (spelling?) I'm not sure if you can blame him especially as your muppet sense was already tingling. The polished up cracks on that and the nature of the rock lend themselves to eating caming devices.

Bad luck I hope he stumps up out of decency.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Phil Murray:



I guess there'll be a point if the crack is the right shape or size that the cam could become completely stuck due to the cams rotating enough for it to become well and truly stuck, but the principle of pulling on the trigger very hard and pushing the cam deeper into the crack is probably a sound one.

Assuming it isn't a narrowing crack you're pushing it into...

In reply to Toby_W:

Yep - Morpheus! With Mobius top pitch as P4.

True.. however, the deep crack I placed it in, I remember thinking, I won't put this is too far, so it will be easy for him to get it out. When I got back down to it, it was wayyyyy deeper. He'd cocked it up. You could argue that's my fault.

The "muppet sensing" went into overdrive from here on, sadly, with him almost too scared to touch a later cam, for fear of it burying itself deep in front of his eyes as well. It all ended rather sadly, IMO. We live. And we learn.

He's a decent guy, he has offered 50%, my only qualm now is the possibility of getting it out later. Saving both of us c£25.

In reply to Phil Murray:


If he's a beginner I would expect some "hopelessness factor". Perhaps you are indeed best not taking beginners on trad.

Whether he should contribute would I guess depend on the relationship between you.

In reply to Timmd:

Same principle with a narrowing crack.
Use QuickDraw dog bones with Biners removed on triggers

In reply to Phil Murray:

Nothing wrong with taking a beginner on trad, but I'd never used friends and if it's the first time ever, 5-10 mins at the bottom explaining how wires, hexes etc.. go in and out, or how to wrap a sling around your body... is seldom time wasted. It's not a cheap lesson for you though.

In reply to Phil Murray: 10 mins is no time at all for retrieving an over-cammed cam. Me and my partner have been known to spend far far longer! We have always managed it.

In reply to GridNorth:


Totally agree - I wouldn't expect a total beginner to pay for stuck cams. It won't really encourage them to get out climbing more, either.

Just spent 30 minutes getting a green totem out of Gimmer Crack, and spent another half an hour extracting a blue camalot out of Golden Girl Ali in the winter. I couldn't touch the stem or triggers with my fingers, but managed to get an old style Clog nut key though the hole in the trigger bar and pull, whilst pushing on the stem with a crab. It was my girlfriends and I wasn't leaving that behind despite my second saying it was hopeless! However fixed cams seem to be getting more and more commonplace, clogging up placements. On The Nose recently I put in no pro on some pitches, just clipped the endless strings of dead cams and wires. Not pretty.

In reply to humptydumpty:

More agreement. Sharing costs of lost gear applies to equal climbing partnerships. Somebody taking beginners out takes full responsibility, and doesn't need to be placing cams on a route many grades below their ability.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Well in that case, I'm charging for my time, or I'm just not taking them out ever again. So he / they can stay inside their indoor walls. What exactly was I doing it for ? Charity, with the potential for loss on my side only? I certainly gained nothing from my 3 hours on the crag today. Perhaps I should merely have gone bouldering, in my own, selfish little world, but no, I decided to try to make the day good for more than just myself. Tut tut.

He's offered 50% and I'm taking it.

In reply to johncook:

Are you free for some consulting work?

This wasn't budging one iota, and meanwhile I had a worried-looking beginner above me making negative noises, so I left it there. May try to get it back tomorrow.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Good luck, I'll keep my fingers crossed.

That old phrase, no good deed goes un punished springs to mind for some reason

Toby

In reply to Phil Murray:


Seems fair to me if that's the choice you want to make...


That's why I do it (although in my case I do it through a club and I remember who taught me most of the stuff I know - club members). As such I wouldn't judge someone for choosing not to.

In reply to Phil Murray:

It's one good reason to climb on the Idwal Slabs/Tryfan East Face on a Monday morning. It is unbelievable how much gear is sometimes left behind.

In reply to Phil Murray:

If you reached them on abseil it sounds like the final decision to leave them was yours. I had a case of second-cam removal failure recently (but with a competent second). I ribbed them about it at first but really I'd chosen not to go back.

We were all beginners once and while it sounds like there was a certain level of hopelessness factor some people pick things up more slowly than others, especially on multi-pitch slimestone.

I think its a bit harsh to demand money. Take whatever he offers. But you have to refuse first and he has to insist.

In reply to Phil Murray:
If I were with a beginner, I wouldn't place cams in placements where there is a chance of them getting stuck. On a V Diff you can normally choose your placements (well may be not at Avon...).

Why not take the person in question to a crag with plenty of cracks that can be reached from the ground (grit?) and show them how to place and extract cams and get them to practice.

Best to go for BD or DMM Demon cams, they are very hard to get irretrievably stuck. WC friends and old style DMM cams are prone to getting stuck, I think because they can get a bit wider as you max out the trigger - a disadvantage of the singe axle design. With BDs and Demons, if you have a tiny bit of movement, you can get it out normally - once took me an hour on abseil though (it had walked)!

If it's just deep in a crack but not hopelessly stuck, get two nut keys on the trigger wires, or if it's too far, how about a couple of wire coat hangers shaped into hooks?

In reply to Phil Murray:
I personally wouldn't expect a payment or partial payment for non retrieval of rock/ice protection from anyone. I have failed to get gear out as a second before and have never been charged. I have also had partners both novice and competent failing to get gear out that I have placed etc.

The only time it has happend was when a partner (novice i took out) left my spare helmet at the lunch spot. I told him it was ok and not to worry about it but he was persistent and gave me the money anyway.

In reply to JHiley:
He's *insisting*. The word "Demand" never left my lips.

I've learned from this, but he did know how to remove cams, I'd shown him before. Where do you take the plunge and start placing them, when the beginner knows how to remove them, but simply can't in practice on the cliff?

I am thinking of soloing it in the morning to try again.

BTW, the abseil was for the pieces on P4, the stuck cam is on P2, so abseiling from the top to get the stuck piece was never an option.

What a lot of interest in such a small event! my beginner mate has no idea.

In reply to Misha:

"BD or DMM Demon cams" - cheers, yeah if I do replace, it will prob. be a BD one - I have a larger one which he nearly failed to get out (that one I got on abseil), and it's a really nice piece of pro took me 5 seconds to get it out but for the first 4 I was sweating!

Thanks also for the removal suggestions - I'll take 2 nut keys with me .....

Phil

In reply to humptydumpty:


Ditto

In reply to Alan M:



I wouldn't either, but I guess it's one of those subjective things similar what's acceptable when it comes to punctuality.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Ah sorry. I took "ask for 50-50 split on the replacement cam?" and "Well in that case, I'm charging for my time, or I'm just not taking them out ever again" out of context and thought you were demanding. Looking again it doesn't read like that.

Yeah if they are insisting on 50% I'd take it, in fact that's exactly what I did in my case. Otherwise they would still be trying to give me money.

In reply to Phil Murray:

You used a cam in Morpheus!!!??? heheheh

In reply to GridNorth:

I'm an ex-pat Yorkshireman so I'm not over it yet.

Know what you mean. It were a number 7 nut on August Bank Holiday Sunday 1995!!! Remember it well. Really should be mentioning Andy's name to spare him any embarrassment....oops..: )

In reply to Phil Murray:

>What exactly was I doing it for ?

The same thing as what whoever taught you to climb in the first place was doing it for, presumably.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

>>Just took a beginner out, as a favour,

He's a beginner, you're not.
You placed the gear, and had all the decisions over what to place, where, and how a beginner might get it out.
You had the opportunity of telling him not to mess with it so you could get it on the Ab.

Take the hit, and either retrieve it or replace it yoourself.

Someone must have taught you how to climb and how to get gear out, this is the payback.
Would you really want on your conscience someone giving up climbing completely because they had to pay dearly for some lost gear that they didn't place?

(and if you really value the gear go back and get it - even if you end up breaking the gear to get it out you have at least (1) cleaned the route and (2) learned a bit about what damage a piece of gear can take)

In reply to Phil Murray:

I know you probably don't mean to but you sound fairly put out by a novice not being able to cope with what you're asking of them. If you're teaching a total novice you should be climbing well within your grade. Like you are soloing. If you're effectively soloing then there should be no need for gear. So don't place unless you know you're going to get it back. And then if you don't, don't whine and bitch about it. What did you do it for? The joy of seeing another person enjoying themselves? If that's not it you should probably go back to being selfish?

In reply to Phil Murray:
Ps, three pieces of gear... Why did you take a total novice up a four pitch climb.... Totally inappropriate...

In reply to Phil Murray:
I find it really difficult to believe that this complete novice has pushed this cam from a position "easy to extract!" To " all the way in making it impossible to extract?" It sounds more like it was poorly placed on too short a quick draw enabling it to walk into the crack, then its been difficult to retrieve and your novice has tried/failed and left it impossible to retrieve- your fault suck it up princess lol

In reply to beardy mike:


Och, twaddle. Jeez. You go away from this forum for a while and then you come back and you just can't stop thinking, what is the *matter* with these people?

Do you have any *idea* how many climbers took and thoroughly enjoyed their first steps on, say, Ordinary Route or Milestone Buttress?

jcm

In reply to : All.
Blimey , yet more responses!

Well: update, the cam is out. YAY!!! Abbed down 1st thing . took me a good 15 mins - but thanks to zimpara for the beta - in fact I used a pair of pliers to whack it a few times whilst squeezing the triggers hard. eventually, after many false alleyways, it started wobbling then walking. (ab rope was then stuck, I'd forgotten which colour to pull, d'oh! - so had to solo reverse the bottom pitch of Morpheus - no biggie, but still.....)

Second: He's not a "total novice", (beardy Mike) - where did i say that?(I didn't) - I'd taken him on a 2-pitch trad route before, at Fly wall, 4 months ago; & he was good on that. He's had 6 months indoor climbing going 3 times a week. Been outside sport climbing about 6 times, where he's struggled making moves on rock (another story - indoor conditioned climbers, 6a+ at the wall, but can't second a 5 outside).

Third: Agree with joncoxmysteriously - many beginners do do multi pitch early on, & love it. I've taken at least 4 (off the top of my head) up that route or the Severe next to it & all were fine. This guy, sadly, IMO, simply doesn't have what it takes in the head to become a trad climber. But, he did remark later that he "loved" the sense of exposure & getting higher & higher, so not all bad from that POV.

Payney373 - I had extended it with a quickdraw, and did so with the second cam he couldn't get out, too. Sadly, he just was panicky about losing my gear by then and just .... f**ked it up each time. He always managed to somehow get the cam wedged deeper.... I had said, just gently pull the levers and it lifts out... so why they ended up further in, I ... despair.

Lessons learned: 1) don't place cams with beginners (thanks for that feedback), 2) Give them a proper re-lesson before taking them up. 3) No one size fits all - each novice / beginner is different . I took up a 52 year old woman up the severe next door a couple years back - not only did she smile the whole way, she also abseiled off , was totally up for it. another time, a mate took 2 beginners up Morpheus, young 20-something men, and one - the biggest, I remember - had a whitey at the 3rd belay & had to be carefully talked off.

As to the comment about me being selfish, the very fact I took him shows I'm not, so that's just trolling. And I was introduced to climbing by a chap who took me & a mate out once, maybe twice, then said, off you go guys, you're on your own now, borrow my rack if you like til you get your own. We made many many mistakes back in the day - but we learned from them . Often the best way..... oh & I lost a piece of their gear, and immediately bought them another identical new piece, so ....

Coffee tastes good after an early morning jaunt! (in the mist)

In reply to: beardymike:

Edit: I *did* say he was a "novice" at trad... so I'll concede some ground there
But not "total novice". - a lot of indoor, one multi pitch trad, and a few days out on sport clipping bolts (badly). (As did I in 1994.....!)

stonemaster: "You used a cam in Morpheus!!!??? heheheh" - yep! I'm laughing too - now.... never again.....

In reply to Phil Murray:

My view with novices is mutipitch is a great first choice as long as I know their movement is OK indoors. In my old Uni club we often did long easier routes in Snowdonia on our first outdoor trip.

On gear I feel its always the leaders responsibility with a partner that is not a peer in ability terms. I'm not happy with taking trad beginners on a route I cant solo and I won't usually place any cams (and certainly nowhere they can walk). Any gear lost with a novice is 100% my responsibility and I certainly would not offer any cash even if they dropped it.

In reply to Phil Murray:

A cam that you can't retrieve?
I'm passing Bristol on Monday, could be another to add to my collection of cams that people get "stuck" . I've never spent more than 10 minutes retrieving a "stuck" cam (or wire).

In reply to mwr72:
Nope - read the post - I got it out at approx. 8:15 this morning.....

Have a medal, tho, for your expertise at getting gear out quickly.

In reply to Phil Murray:

It's not called expertise, it's called being a Yorkshireman
Good on you for getting it out though.

In reply to summo:

Being new to trad myself a number of guys have give me lots of pointers and examples on cleaning gear on the ground before going up.

I've never lost a piece thus far 2nd'ing and ive previously spent a good 15mins cleaning a bloody awkward but bomber nut placement before now.

I've always seemed to read on here that gear placement has to be a happy marriage between safety and ease of removal, but ultimately its the leaders responsibility to ensure gear can be cleaned. However a novice 2nd may need some clearer lessons on the ground.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Excellent. Glad you got it out.
I've taken 6a indoor climbers out that can't get up a vdiff. Literally not even a S4a... A dviff. Because the holds are not apparent until you know what you're looking for. Foot holds that is! Lol

In reply to Phil Murray:

When climbing with beginners I always drum it into them beforehand that if a cam doesn't come straight out, they must just leave it and I'll go back for it myself.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

Yep! I know now that too! in fact, I said to him, the last cam, "leave it mate, I'll ab down & get it".

Wise move.....

In reply to zimpara:

Yep - I know. Indoor breed. They all "do 6a" at the wall. Then stumped by VDiffs.... and, worse, by the double ropes & belay situations - just total bafflement.

Mind you, I took a major pasting today, justified payback? - on a "4c" (UK) pitch 1 of an E1 in the Wye valley. Time for more rock climbing, methinks.....

Cheers.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: yep, I know lots of people do multipitch climbs as their first routes. What I'm saying is that if you're not happy leading a route placing gear which is easy to get out, then its pretty daft to be taking them up multipitch routes. Not because its inappropriate for them, but inapproriate for you the leader. If you can't be certain of placing gear which is easy to get out, then you need to be on routes which are easy to ab down, or be not that bothered about losing gear.

To phil murry: ok so i paraphrased. A days trad climbing, in terms of trad climbing is a total novice. How many pieces has he had to remove before this? Not many.

In reply to Phil Murray:
Life's a big lesson 'eh?!

Glad you got the cam back! I won't use cams straight away when teaching novices, there's no point, they have loads of other stuff to learn and master before properly understanding cams.

Good on you for taking a novice out though and getting them on multi pitch, on a lot of my courses for novices we get out on climbs like Ordinary Route on the slabs on day one. It's a great experience for them and gives loads of teaching opportunities. I'll always have a quick gear explanation at the bottom though, how to extract it, how best to clip it to their harness etc.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Go 50-50 with him, and then if you manage to get it out give it to him as a gift of his first piece to build up his rack. It'll be a good sentimental piece of gear and a story teller in the pub when he takes his first newbie out. Then everyones a winner

In reply to chris fox:

Actually no. You have still charged the novice for your incompetance and his reward is a half price cam he could have got for new for a few quid more in a sale. Charging beginners for lost gear is a form of theft and allowing their guilt to lead to volunteer sharing costs of stuck cams is morally wrong. You can share petrol costs and even charge for your services (but you will need to be insured then as an instructor).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


+1

OP: Take your ab rope and a couple of nut keys, get the cam back. Or don't. Either way quit bleeting about it.

jk

In reply to jkarran:

"bleeting"? Not sure what you mean.

Perhaps you'd like to read my post, rather than your whimsical reply, and then you'll see what's happened.

In reply to Offwidth:

Rubbish.

Read my post yesterday morning.

Additionally, when it appeared the cam was lost, he said, how much do they cost? and I told him, and he said he'd buy me a new one, and I said, no, that's not fair, we'll go halves if I really can't get it out.

Still, spin it out any way you like to make me look bad. I don't care. I'm really incompetent? Yeah whatever. You have no idea what I'm like but I've been in the mountains on & off since 1972, and I'm still loving it, and alive, so I suspect I'm not half bad.

In reply to beardy mike:

Cheers. Yeah, he hadn't taken out many pieces before, true; and I note your point. I certainly misjudged his ability to get gear out, and I see it as a learning day for me as well as him.

We're still on good terms, so all good. He's back to his indoor climbing now! (nothing wrong with that!)

In reply to Phil Murray:

I've read all your posts. You chose to take the person out and you chose the route and the gear placements. Beginners get nervous and make mistakes and its plain unfair to charge them for what what you caused. Beginners are also ignorant of protocol so of course they would usually make such an offer that an honest climber should decline. Try and convince a guide they should start splitting the cost if beginners cause their gear to get stuck.

You need to get off that high horse about incompetance.. we all demonstrate this from time to time and my accusation referred to this incident, not your general climbing.

In reply to Offwidth:
But I *didn't* "charge" him!!!! He offered to replace the whole cam, I said no, we'll go halves if we do anything, and in the end, I got it out, so no money changed hands. You imply its 100% my fault if he can't get a piece out. Well, no he wouldnt' agree, nor would I. Not 100%. 50% ? 75% my fault? What if it's a sling around a block & he forgets to pick it up? Do we have to assess each piece on a case-by-case basis? I'm not a guide either, so I wasn't being paid, I have no insurance or qualifications, it's not my job, this was an amateur favour from one bloke to another, in both our spare times. He shared petrol costs. He expressed gratitude that he was using my 2 x 9mm ropes and rack, amounting to £100s' worth. He even cooked me dinner on the w/e as a thank you! I protested and bought some wine when he insisted. We had a good crack about the day & he said he enjoyed it despite the stress on the top pitch with gear etc, and overall was really glad we'd done it.

I posted this to see what protocol should be re. losing a piece. I've got all the answers I need (thanks guys for that), I've learned, but one thing that isn't really "on" in uKC forums is that advice rarely comes without a hefty dose of (often unjustified) criticism, bordering on insulting people / OPs. Of course, not everyone does this, but this is why all - not some, but *all* - of my Bristol climbing buddies avoid UKC forums. They find them really nasty and unwelcoming. Alan, if you're reading this (& we've met, and had dialogues around RockFaxs etc for c. 22 years), please note: My mates don't come here, cos it's not a pleasant place.

I do accept that I made misjudgements that day, from which I've learned. So let's leave it there.

Happy climbing.
Phil.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Well, what I'd say is that rather than giving up which won't do HIM any good, why don't you take him somewhere where you can easily demonstrate how to remove stuck gear. It's all part of learning. As "experts" we forget how some of the apparently simple stuff we do every time we go climbing is actually not that easy, how some people get intimidated by big cliffs or how easy it is to get scared when you have no reason to be. So to teach effectively you need to start at the beginning and not gloss over anything. You pupil will find it interesting and useful, and actually forcing yourself to explain things clearly and succinctly actually helps you the teacher as well, by clarifying in you own mind the reason you use particular systems and methods for doing things. So many people learn just by being dragged up things, and yeah it works but its not often a particularly efficient way of them learning. Taking the time to explain properly in the end saves you time because they get better quicker and you get to the good stuff sooner. Don't give up - yeah you've had a bumpy start, just make the effort to really help him and it'll repay you.

In reply to Phil Murray:
You have been pretty rude about your partner in the OP and in response to those calling you out on your mistakes you have been pretty much as rude as any of the negative replies; then you verbally 'run to teacher' about how nasty UKC is.

I'd like to know from anyone who has been taking beginners out for years how long they have been doing it, if they have ever charged anyone for stuck gear and what have they lost... I've seen some dumb behaviour from beginners and some cruel forms of revenge (usually unaligned) but can't think of anyone taking contributions for a stuck cam the leader shouldn't have used in the first place. So in my case I've been doing this for 25 years, never charged and rarely lost anything (the odd bit of dropped gear being my main problem). In fact I'll put this on another thread.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=625115&new=8136147#x8136147

In reply to Phil Murray:

I was climbing with a novice at the Roaches, and I'd belayed part way and brought her up before continuing to the top. She then had trouble dismantling the belay. Night was drawing in and it was getting dark, so eventually (and reluctantly) I told her to abandon the stuck gear. When she reached the top she handed over the hex I thought she'd been struggling with. It turned out she'd been trying to remove the in situ jammed chockstone, which I'd simply threaded.

Lesson: explain everything.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Your enquiry about protocol is a reasonable one, and the general theme of your post isn't an obviously hot topic (retrobolting, gay climbing clubs, mountain huts providing only vegan food, to name but three); but something about your posts has has led to a somewhat negative reception on here - I don't think it's just that UKC is nasty! Could it be a slight whiff of entitlement?

Have you imagined your climbing partner of that day reading this thread?

Showing a novice the ropes is a fairly commonplace occurrence for an experienced climber, and if the company is good this can make for a very enjoyable day out. Personally I wouldn't feel the need to keep emphasising that it's a favour, and if I did feel that I'd accrued some brownie points, I don't think I'd be trying to cash them in! I hope not anyway. So, for what it's worth, I think your gear was your own responsibility. Glad to hear you got the cam back though