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So for the experienced in this area how long have you been teaching beginners trad, what have you lost gear wise and finally if your beginner gets your gear stuck whould you consider charging them for part or all of it?
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In reply to Offwidth:
About 50 years. No formal qualifications, but from time to time have taken total beginners on trad
A couple of nuts, one cam, a dropped sling and krab into the sea
No. My decision to take them climbing. I know they are inexperienced - so lost gear is possibility that I accept, otherwise I wouldn't do it.
> So for the experienced in this area how long have you been teaching beginners trad
About 50 years. No formal qualifications, but from time to time have taken total beginners on trad
> what have you lost gear wise
A couple of nuts, one cam, a dropped sling and krab into the sea
> and finally if your beginner gets your gear stuck would you consider charging them for part or all of it?
No. My decision to take them climbing. I know they are inexperienced - so lost gear is possibility that I accept, otherwise I wouldn't do it.
21
In reply to Offwidth:
Something over 20 years. I'm struggling to remember the last gear I lost that I couldn't get back by abseil. The hardest part is usually realising that any gear is missing at all.
I almost certainly have a higher attrition rate when climbing with regular partners, with whom the agreement is 50:50 unless its complete muppetry that caused it.
If its down to their thoughtlessness rather than inexperience I wouldn't have a problem asking a beginner for a contributuion to lost gear.
Something over 20 years. I'm struggling to remember the last gear I lost that I couldn't get back by abseil. The hardest part is usually realising that any gear is missing at all.
I almost certainly have a higher attrition rate when climbing with regular partners, with whom the agreement is 50:50 unless its complete muppetry that caused it.
If its down to their thoughtlessness rather than inexperience I wouldn't have a problem asking a beginner for a contributuion to lost gear.
In reply to Offwidth:
20ish years, lots but mainly due to mix ups when packing up for the hike out, and no.
I did accept a beginners offer of one of his brand new ice screws when he dropped one of mine down the Monte Rosa East face (we came up the other side...). He was earning way more than I did at the time (or even still do), and probably enjoyed the excuse of having to go shopping for more gear.
CB
20ish years, lots but mainly due to mix ups when packing up for the hike out, and no.
I did accept a beginners offer of one of his brand new ice screws when he dropped one of mine down the Monte Rosa East face (we came up the other side...). He was earning way more than I did at the time (or even still do), and probably enjoyed the excuse of having to go shopping for more gear.
CB
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In reply to Offwidth:
Introduced a dozen or so complete beginners to trad climbing over the last 20 years or so, as well as a larger number of relative novices. Fortunately, I've never lost a cam. Lost a nut here and there, maybe a total of six, and one or two slings. Never occurred to me to ask for money.
Introduced a dozen or so complete beginners to trad climbing over the last 20 years or so, as well as a larger number of relative novices. Fortunately, I've never lost a cam. Lost a nut here and there, maybe a total of six, and one or two slings. Never occurred to me to ask for money.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Similar to others, most of my climbing life, 20-odd years, informally only with friends or friends of friends, but don't think I've ever lost anything where it was the beginner's fault.
That includes an entertaining episode bringing a newbie who was full of swagger and bravado up something a bit hard at Sennen (he'd refused to be patronised by having any more Diffs suggested). I was sat on the edge, giving a very tight rope, and assembled friends were offering encouragement and support from below. With every bit of gear he retrieved, I would try to talk him through the procedure of clipping it to his harness, and he, ashen faced, flung it over his shoulder to cling on all the harder. The support team gave in to mirth and hilarity as they scrabbled around to retrieve my rack from its dispersal over the surrounding rock platform.
Similar to others, most of my climbing life, 20-odd years, informally only with friends or friends of friends, but don't think I've ever lost anything where it was the beginner's fault.
That includes an entertaining episode bringing a newbie who was full of swagger and bravado up something a bit hard at Sennen (he'd refused to be patronised by having any more Diffs suggested). I was sat on the edge, giving a very tight rope, and assembled friends were offering encouragement and support from below. With every bit of gear he retrieved, I would try to talk him through the procedure of clipping it to his harness, and he, ashen faced, flung it over his shoulder to cling on all the harder. The support team gave in to mirth and hilarity as they scrabbled around to retrieve my rack from its dispersal over the surrounding rock platform.
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In reply to Offwidth:
I've been instructing professionally at MIA/MIC level for 10 years. I've had a few pieces dropped or not retrieved in that time but not enough for it to feel like a major drain - I accept it as part of the job.
You can achieve a lot by doing a ground-level session on gear-retrieval before you get off the ground, placing gear off good ledges so that it can be removed two-handed, extending cams (or not placing them at all) and generally letting your second/client develop these basic skills on easy ground where they are less gripped. In summary treat them more like a student and less like a belay-bunny.
My only exception to not charging students is for ice screws, as losing just one would wipe out my profit for the day. This is discussed and agreed in advance.
I've been instructing professionally at MIA/MIC level for 10 years. I've had a few pieces dropped or not retrieved in that time but not enough for it to feel like a major drain - I accept it as part of the job.
You can achieve a lot by doing a ground-level session on gear-retrieval before you get off the ground, placing gear off good ledges so that it can be removed two-handed, extending cams (or not placing them at all) and generally letting your second/client develop these basic skills on easy ground where they are less gripped. In summary treat them more like a student and less like a belay-bunny.
My only exception to not charging students is for ice screws, as losing just one would wipe out my profit for the day. This is discussed and agreed in advance.
4
In reply to Offwidth:
I have rarely had people lose gear, and when I do I tend to either ab down for it or just take it on the chin. If my climbing partner is a beginner then I have to take some responsibility for ensuring my gear can be removed.
Of course as soon as I deem them to no longer be a beginner things are quite different...
I have rarely had people lose gear, and when I do I tend to either ab down for it or just take it on the chin. If my climbing partner is a beginner then I have to take some responsibility for ensuring my gear can be removed.
Of course as soon as I deem them to no longer be a beginner things are quite different...
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In reply to Offwidth: Many many years. Never lost gear to a beginner. Never needed to charge them for it and probably wouldn't.
I always give instruction on gear removal, try to avoid awkward placements (until I am sure they have the idea.) and do routes well within my ability so I need to place less gear. The most problems occur with cams but even those I get back by abbing, or soloing up to remove them, usually easily.
The worst gear to remove is that placed by ego-fuelled leaders who get halfway through a hard move, realise they are over-committed and slam in a piece, often a cam, blindly and badly, and leave a second to try to figure out it's removal.
I always give instruction on gear removal, try to avoid awkward placements (until I am sure they have the idea.) and do routes well within my ability so I need to place less gear. The most problems occur with cams but even those I get back by abbing, or soloing up to remove them, usually easily.
The worst gear to remove is that placed by ego-fuelled leaders who get halfway through a hard move, realise they are over-committed and slam in a piece, often a cam, blindly and badly, and leave a second to try to figure out it's removal.
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In reply to johncook:
I could have posted the same, word for word.
Don't see why it should ever be the beginner's problem, or why it should cause a porblem for the experienced one if they've half a brain.
I could have posted the same, word for word.
Don't see why it should ever be the beginner's problem, or why it should cause a porblem for the experienced one if they've half a brain.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Maybe 20 or so friends and relatives in 20 years, and don't ever recall losing any gear. Always demonstrated how gear works at the bottom of a crag and on the odd occasion that they haven't been able to get some gear out I've done it on by abseil or more usually (given that it's mostly been on short grit routes) I'll just solo up. Even with experienced climbers it often seems that the person placing the gear is most successful at retrieving it.
Would never consider changing for lost gear anymore i would wear and tear on a rope.
Maybe 20 or so friends and relatives in 20 years, and don't ever recall losing any gear. Always demonstrated how gear works at the bottom of a crag and on the odd occasion that they haven't been able to get some gear out I've done it on by abseil or more usually (given that it's mostly been on short grit routes) I'll just solo up. Even with experienced climbers it often seems that the person placing the gear is most successful at retrieving it.
Would never consider changing for lost gear anymore i would wear and tear on a rope.
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In reply to Offwidth:
I don't recall losing any gear to beginners unable to get it out though I've likely had to ab for the odd piece or recover it some other way. I've taken plenty of folk new to climbing out over the years, no idea how many and not so frequently these days.
I can only recall one occasion where I've had to give up on gear we got stuck (small cam under a huge roof over the sea, traversing line). I've dropped, lost, misplaced and left behind at the crag/roadside plenty but what goes around comes around, I've found plenty too.
It's my gear, I'm not precious about it and the general idea is I replace what needs replacing. There are no rules, we're adults and more than capable of sorting out any minor grievances over lost trinkets.
jk
I don't recall losing any gear to beginners unable to get it out though I've likely had to ab for the odd piece or recover it some other way. I've taken plenty of folk new to climbing out over the years, no idea how many and not so frequently these days.
I can only recall one occasion where I've had to give up on gear we got stuck (small cam under a huge roof over the sea, traversing line). I've dropped, lost, misplaced and left behind at the crag/roadside plenty but what goes around comes around, I've found plenty too.
It's my gear, I'm not precious about it and the general idea is I replace what needs replacing. There are no rules, we're adults and more than capable of sorting out any minor grievances over lost trinkets.
jk
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In reply to Offwidth:
a couple a decades, lost practically nothing, a few wires at most etc.., pay - nothing, my fault entirely. It could be poor briefing by me, I may have selected a placement that was tricky to extract, I would never use expensive gear, if a novice was belaying me I would be selecting a straightforward route and putting gear in for show, not because I might need it, as you shouldn't really trust them to catch you anyway.
Worst case, I would dash back round somewhere in the evening and retrieve it, or solo up and extract it as they ate their lunch, or packed their bag afterwards etc..
> So for the experienced in this area how long have you been teaching beginners trad, what have you lost gear wise and finally if your beginner gets your gear stuck whould you consider charging them for part or all of it?
a couple a decades, lost practically nothing, a few wires at most etc.., pay - nothing, my fault entirely. It could be poor briefing by me, I may have selected a placement that was tricky to extract, I would never use expensive gear, if a novice was belaying me I would be selecting a straightforward route and putting gear in for show, not because I might need it, as you shouldn't really trust them to catch you anyway.
Worst case, I would dash back round somewhere in the evening and retrieve it, or solo up and extract it as they ate their lunch, or packed their bag afterwards etc..
In reply to Offwidth:
Ans to the 3 qus:
I think I must have taken about 20 beginners climbing, at irregular intervals over the approx. 40 years I was climbing. At places like the east face of Tryfan, Idwal Slabs, Gribin Facet, Flying Buttress (Cromlech), Stanage, Roaches, and Harborough.
I don't recall any.
No.
(PS. I would be careful, once camming devices had been invented, to use little or none of them when taking a beginner climbing.)
Ans to the 3 qus:
I think I must have taken about 20 beginners climbing, at irregular intervals over the approx. 40 years I was climbing. At places like the east face of Tryfan, Idwal Slabs, Gribin Facet, Flying Buttress (Cromlech), Stanage, Roaches, and Harborough.
I don't recall any.
No.
(PS. I would be careful, once camming devices had been invented, to use little or none of them when taking a beginner climbing.)
In reply to Offwidth: Been teaching climbing for years and can't really say that I keep track of exactly what gear has been dropped, lost, left, removed or just randomly disappeared.
Had a student 'throw' a belay device into the sea whilst setting up to abseil on a Skye sea cliff a few weeks ago. Luckily for them, in that case my employer decided not to bill them for it, but could well have done.
Had a student 'throw' a belay device into the sea whilst setting up to abseil on a Skye sea cliff a few weeks ago. Luckily for them, in that case my employer decided not to bill them for it, but could well have done.
In reply to Offwidth:
I guess I've taken out about 10 beginners over 20 years: I don’t remember ever having to retrieve any stuck gear, but they do seem more likely to drop gear, which may well mean loss of the gear on a mountain route. I think I've lost a krab and a nut this way.
Fundamentally it’s the same system for me whether climbing with beginners or experts: if we’re climbing with my gear, I accept all the losses, but I also accrue all the gains. No money will ever change hands. The only difference in treatment between experts and beginners is that I will donate any net gain to the beginner's inchoate rack, against the day when they may themselves lose gear taking out novices in their turn.
I guess I've taken out about 10 beginners over 20 years: I don’t remember ever having to retrieve any stuck gear, but they do seem more likely to drop gear, which may well mean loss of the gear on a mountain route. I think I've lost a krab and a nut this way.
Fundamentally it’s the same system for me whether climbing with beginners or experts: if we’re climbing with my gear, I accept all the losses, but I also accrue all the gains. No money will ever change hands. The only difference in treatment between experts and beginners is that I will donate any net gain to the beginner's inchoate rack, against the day when they may themselves lose gear taking out novices in their turn.
In reply to Offwidth:
20 years, but very sporadically.
A few nuts - but NO CAMS AS YET
I wouldn't "charge" but I would consider offers from insistent and generous types.... but not if it was obviously my own daft fault. Case by case, I suppose. If they left a brand new sling of mine round a tree through .... forgetfulness, rubbishness, and said, ah sorry Phil, silly me - let me replace that, I'd say yeah, sure, if you like. But if I jammed a wire deep in a bottomless crack & I knew it wasn't coming out, I'd take the hit myself. All done on my other thread
cheers
Phil
(just had top day at a sport crag in the Wye with said "beginner") (no gear to remove)
20 years, but very sporadically.
A few nuts - but NO CAMS AS YET
I wouldn't "charge" but I would consider offers from insistent and generous types.... but not if it was obviously my own daft fault. Case by case, I suppose. If they left a brand new sling of mine round a tree through .... forgetfulness, rubbishness, and said, ah sorry Phil, silly me - let me replace that, I'd say yeah, sure, if you like. But if I jammed a wire deep in a bottomless crack & I knew it wasn't coming out, I'd take the hit myself. All done on my other thread
cheers
Phil
(just had top day at a sport crag in the Wye with said "beginner") (no gear to remove)
In reply to Offwidth:
I have been taking beginners and more advanced climbers out in a professional capacity for 15 years.
I can't remember losing any significant pieces of gear.
No, I wouldn't charge them for it if they got my gear stuck, I would simply 'unstick it' myself, and have done on many occasions.
Jack
I have been taking beginners and more advanced climbers out in a professional capacity for 15 years.
I can't remember losing any significant pieces of gear.
No, I wouldn't charge them for it if they got my gear stuck, I would simply 'unstick it' myself, and have done on many occasions.
Jack
2
In reply to Offwidth:
Never lost gear but wouldn't charge them anyhow. Start some where you only need to place nuts hexes etc and always let then place then just off he floor but in a safe position before you put them to the sharp end.
Never lost gear but wouldn't charge them anyhow. Start some where you only need to place nuts hexes etc and always let then place then just off he floor but in a safe position before you put them to the sharp end.
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In reply to Offwidth:
Can't really remember - 40+ years??
Bits and bobs. (Actually that reminds me, one sprog who subsequently became rather famous, left shed-loads of stuff behind.)
Never! If I forget/can't be arsed to solo back down/up and get it, the crag can have it.
mick
> So for the experienced in this area how long have you been teaching beginners trad...
Can't really remember - 40+ years??
> what have you lost gear wise?
Bits and bobs. (Actually that reminds me, one sprog who subsequently became rather famous, left shed-loads of stuff behind.)
> finally if your beginner gets your gear stuck whould you consider charging them for part or all of it?
Never! If I forget/can't be arsed to solo back down/up and get it, the crag can have it.
mick
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In reply to Offwidth:
I've taken a fair few total beginners trad climbing over the last 10 years or so, in that time I've lost 1 nut (thrown into the sea) and one sling that was probably just left under a boulder or got picked up by mistake. I've never asked for money but I did get given some cash for the nut.
I've taken a fair few total beginners trad climbing over the last 10 years or so, in that time I've lost 1 nut (thrown into the sea) and one sling that was probably just left under a boulder or got picked up by mistake. I've never asked for money but I did get given some cash for the nut.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Most climbers find themselves taking beginners out almost from the word go, but it's a moot point as to whether that constitutes proper teaching. Yes, you're imparting knowledge but you're really out for your own enjoyment, hence the vague figure that I gave.
If you want to be exact, I started climbing 50 yrs ago this year and started formal instructing at PyB in July 1973. I still instruct, albeit rather sporadically, so it actually costs me more to maintain my AMI membership and insurance than I make. Sort of a paying hobby really.
> Can't really remember - 40+ years??
Most climbers find themselves taking beginners out almost from the word go, but it's a moot point as to whether that constitutes proper teaching. Yes, you're imparting knowledge but you're really out for your own enjoyment, hence the vague figure that I gave.
If you want to be exact, I started climbing 50 yrs ago this year and started formal instructing at PyB in July 1973. I still instruct, albeit rather sporadically, so it actually costs me more to maintain my AMI membership and insurance than I make. Sort of a paying hobby really.
In reply to Offwidth:
Have taken out n00bs quite a few times.
Never lost any gear because of them.
But it's all single pitch here, so rappelling down to rescue the gear is not a problem.
If it was gear that I placed and the n00b couldn't clean, I'd bite the bullet (as it was my own darn fault).
How ever, if it was the n00b that placed it. Then I'd value how much use the gear had had. Brand spankin' new Ultralight Camalot and completely ruined/stuck. I'd really have to discuss... but 50 to 75% of price would be a good start... and some beer at the pub.
Older gear, at max 50%... most likely nothing, unless I had just instructed them *not* to place gear there...
Have taken out n00bs quite a few times.
Never lost any gear because of them.
But it's all single pitch here, so rappelling down to rescue the gear is not a problem.
If it was gear that I placed and the n00b couldn't clean, I'd bite the bullet (as it was my own darn fault).
How ever, if it was the n00b that placed it. Then I'd value how much use the gear had had. Brand spankin' new Ultralight Camalot and completely ruined/stuck. I'd really have to discuss... but 50 to 75% of price would be a good start... and some beer at the pub.
Older gear, at max 50%... most likely nothing, unless I had just instructed them *not* to place gear there...
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