UKC

Several big groups of new Freshers at Froggatt today, at least one from Manchester Uni. I know some student groups have had some bad press in the past, but just thought I'd comment that everyone I spoke to was sociable, polite, no one was 'hogging' routes despite the numbers and everyone seemed to be having a good time. Great to see so many people enjoying the outdoors.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I do believe the Most Rubbish Claim To Fame thread is elsewhere.

In reply to Bingers:

I once had a long discussion about piano music with Harry Shearer's wife.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Thanks for your kind comments. As this year's President of MUMC it's good to have some positive feedback that we are going about introducing new students into climbing the right way and taking the necessary steps to prevent disruption to others.

By the numbers asleep on the coach back I think a good day was had by all(!) and apologies if we did cause any inconvienience.

In reply to JoeyTheFish:

Manchester have been demonstrating pretty good practice for years. Even behaved well when another Uni club behaviour at Froggatt led to some unfairly placed internet blame. Making it clear up front in UKC the full detail of good practice (as per BMC advice: for instance you will be speading out on Froggatt and RHS Curbar) would be one some of the minor improvements you could make that might help some of the less well organised clubs think a bit more about what they do.

I'd like to see all Uni Clubs avoid 3 star routes with beginners as it just adds polish and takes the chance of an onsight away.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Great to hear a good time was had - happy memories of 40+ years ago, when I was one of the MUMC freshers.

In reply to Offwidth:


And what if Uni Clubs are leading them in an onsight fashion? There's no need to specifically target these comments at Uni clubs, just big groups in general.

Equally, the wear and tear of one or even several well led top-roping groups a year on such routes probably has lower impact than the locals that go out an solo such routes 500* times a year...

*Exaggeration for effect, before anyone pedantic starts doing the maths.

In reply to ianstevens:


The experienced leader gets to onsight the route, the newbie doesn't. Like as not they probably end up dogging it as second or 3rd. So 2 months later, the newbie is addicted to climbing, but has lost the chance to onsight a classic.

When I was a beginner, the whole act of climbing was such a novelty that I neither knew nor cared with I was climbing a 3-star or no-star route.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Yep, the idea that one will run out of classics after the first couple of months of climbing is pretty novel, I must say.

Edited to say that students are still tossers though.

In reply to Mike Highbury:

Who mentioned running out?

I was glad when I led Mississippi Buttress Direct that it wasn't one of the routes I'd seconded when learning.

In reply to ianstevens:

Freshers who are climbing beginners are hardly going to be doing much onsight leading. If you second the route you don't get the chance later for the classic onsight.

Some groups do have bad practice that adds significantly to erosion.
The main problem that is ongoing on grit (ie not the ancient polish largely through the highly damaging past use of nailed boots) is beginners scrabbling about on climbs that are too hard for them in dirty footware. The low-level effect of high traffic on classics is demonstrably less than that on climbs very commonly used by groups: Ash Tree Wall at Burb North is a good example, where lead and solo traffic is much lower than many classics or shorter climbs in the general area yet the climbs are much more polished. Uni groups generally don't do this sort of thing anymore thanks to all the good advice going around.

In reply to Mike Highbury:
My first day's climbing was at Froggatt with a couple of friends (I never did the club thing). I seconded (and 'thirded') various routes, but when I suggested Heather Wall was told I'd probably be wanting to lead that before too long and it'd be nicer not to have climbed it before.

Didn't quite get it at the time but I was, and it was. That route was one of my first ever leads, I still remember it fondly now and I was grateful to my friend for her sage advice to not toprope it a couple of months earlier.

Students are indeed tossers. Climbers are tossers too. Sounds like the Manc club do well to keep the one down at a similar level to the other. ;O)

In reply to Offwidth:


Are 3 star VDiffs and Severes out too?

In reply to Offwidth:


Nah - that would force them on to the undiscovered, hidden, unknown and often quality 0* gems that abound our crags. If there is one thing that has been more destructive than even the dirtiest punters' shoes scrabbling for traction, it was the guidebook writers who unwittingly decided to rate certain climbs using a star system many moons ago.

In reply to ByEek:

Not on grit. The polish predated star systems and is worse on the good no star and 1 star routes used a lot by groups.

In reply to Offwidth: I seconded Tody's wall on one of my first Uni club trips. I was quite chuffed at the time. Didn't bother me that I lost the insight, but then I've never been a grade chaser . By your logic noone should second any route they haven't already lead just in case they want to lead it one day.

In reply to ceri:

When you've been climbing for a bit you'll know whether such things bother you. If they don't then second away to your heart's content; but if you do end up being bothered then you'll regret it if you were taught by seconding classics. Personally I prefer onsight leading - and it's nothing to do with grade chasing, I am and always have been a VS punter.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Maybe my memory is just poorer: I don't find that having seconded something a year ago makes it any easier than having just seen the team in front finish the route I know it means I can't say I've onsighted it, but I don't mind whether I get that title.

In reply to ceri:
Onsighting for me is mainly about breaking new ground, not grade chasing. It's about the fun of physical problem solving that is marred a little second time around. The vast majority of my roped climbing and a good bit of my soloing when new to a crag is onsight. I'm often not fussed about seconding but I do reserve a relatively small number of routes on my onsight lead ticklist and that would include most gritstone 2 or 3 star routes in my grade range that I've not yet done: the 'logic' is, I wait for the right day and the right partner. I've been climbing regularly for nearly 30 years and the routes I'd still like to do will last me to the end of a long life. On my home grit the classics go fast but the lines keep coming... I'm well over halfway towards the 10,000 routes I'm capable of and not that far behind for boulder problems. I don't just onsight... some climbs that I like I've done more times than I can remember; most stuff I've checked for the BMC or YMC I've done a few times with different partners and watched many more; I happily repeat routes because my partner wants to lead them or second them. In all of this those who seem to get the most out of the medium, like me, will care a good deal about style on routes that matter to them. Not everyone is like this but those that are will have a tinge of regret with a less ethical introduction.