UKC

I have today replaced the worn belays on Max Wall in Chee Dale. I was down there about 8.30. This has cost around £25 out of my own pocket ( which does not include the drill, travel and effort) but there is a problem. These bolts are worn because people continue to top rope routes with their ropes threaded through the eye of the bolt which wears a groove into the belay.
Please, please, please follow good practice and leave karabiners on the bolts until you have finished. You won't replace these bolts as it's a costly job and involves quite an effort so please consider others on these route: I have now placed two bolt belays over an 18 year period on these routes and will not be renewing them again, because I probably wont be around. I placed all of the bolts on this wall in the first place, amongst others....guilty.
If you would like to support my rebooting efforts you can do so via a donate button on my web site www.sportsclimbs.co uk

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Good shout Gary. Thanks for putting the time and effort in on it.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

I'm only an easy trad climber but I appreciate the work you have put in developing climbing in the Peak. So have a donation.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Thanks for highlighting Gary, my favourite sport climbing rant;
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=589360&v=1#x7795159

In reply to Gary Gibson: The worst culprits are the outdoor instructor types. I frequently see them toproping groups through the bolts/staples. I challenge them and get the reply that "that is what they are there for!" Many of the instructors are quite arrogant. It would be interesting to find out how many of these 'instructors' contribute to the bolts that they are using to make themselves a decent living.
Although I do very little sport climbing I would like to say thanks Gary for all your hard work.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Good one Gary, appreciate your hard work and hope that people use some common sense. Im sure they just need pointing in the right direction.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Out of interest Gary. You say two bolt belays in 18 years, what's the general replacement lifespan of bolts and anchors in your opinion?

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Thanks Gary. Those bolts were getting in a right mess.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Once again big thanks for doing us all /Climbing a massive service , UK Climbing would not be the same without your efforts .

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Thank you for highlighting this. Not an isolated problem unfortunately:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=539443&v=1#x7231387

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Good effort Gaary. Out of interest why don't you use captive rings like they do in France?

That way, top-roping from the anchors doesn't ruin them,

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Hi Chris. These were cheaper for me but nobody would replace the captive eyes when they were worn out anyway and they do wear out. It's not what you use more who will replace it. Don't currently know who would and I'm certainly near finished doing it. Think I've done my share. I won't stop people top roping through them but I can but try.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Hi Chris,
That would be fantastic, but would cost him more.
Maybe we could have a celebrate gary day in the peak..a days climbing at one of "his" crags that he has put a lot of work into..and he could walk round shaking his collection tin?
or
even a fun night in Kalymnos( during Oct when I know he'll be there)!!!.. and where he has not placed any bolts ..yet!!!..so all the climbers there, who climb on his routes,..could contribute to both bolt funds..so he could shake his tin for two countries bolt fund???
Cheers
Nick B
ps I promise I wont let him spend it on Mythos (beer)
pps Seriously, ..and it sounds like a BBC sponsored drive...but give a fiver or tenner to garys bolt fund..he does a fantastic, unrewarded job!!

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Thanks Gary I'll donate
Can someone do the Darl / Countdown anchors? I think they are an accident waiting to happen

In reply to ashtond6: I'll put it on my list, probably next year as I am away for a while.

In reply to astley007:

Maybe the BMC could see their way to buy him 1000 rings so that they go on every new belay - for the greater good?

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
I love your optimism Chris but that ain't going to happen.

In reply to Chris Craggs:


I can understand the issue, although surprised to see it at Max Wall as those won't be instructed beginners, but surely there are better considerations for choosing belay points than merely preventing top ropers?

Pigtails could maybe do a bit of both, replaceable and convenient.

In reply to Gary Gibson:

Thnaks for the good work / Time and money. I think if you see people Top Roping through the Bolts them just educate them as ask them to change their system. Dont look the other way. Also UKC could do an video article on this?

In reply to Aigen:


... and maybe a sign or two at popular sport venues?

In reply to Chris Craggs:

...

This is the sort of thing which could be raised at a local area BMC meeting. The BMC has funded stakes at Swanage and in Pembrokeshire, so why not, if that's what the local climbers want. (And if that's what anyone reading this wants, get along to your local area meeting and suggest it, it might take a little while as such a proposal would probably have to be widely publicised, so that anyone who felt strongly about it could have their say before it was accepted.)

In reply to Mark Kemball:

Staples are always going to be a 2nd best option - they will wear out and damn quickly on popular routes.

You might persuade people to treat the anchors with a bit more respect but it the usual UK attitude of '2nd best is good enough - someone else will sort it down the line".

That isn't a dig a Gary btw - he does a titanic job but with the right backing this could be sorted once and for all!


Chris

In reply to Aigen: I tried pointing out the problem to some instructors and the response was not nice. Apparently as I am not an instructor in charge of a group of 'students' I don't know what I am talking about. Apparently the top staples are made soft so they wear before the rope!
I just wish I could have got some identification of them and their 'company'. I would have put it all over the forum. In future I will greater efforts at I.D. for that very purpose!

In reply to johncook:


(Rather misplaced) elitist crap.


And that's just bollocks.

In reply to jon:

Unfortunately this 'not losing face' response is almost inevitable if they are confronted when with the students. Most people will respond that way when someone they don't know from Adam tells them they don't know their job in front of their clients. Even if they are wrong.

In reply to GrahamD: I did try to speak to them away from their accolytes. They would have none of it. I have been climbing for some considerable time and knew they were talking BS, but wasn't in the mood for the stand up they were obviously after. Arrogant is the description that fits best.
I will expose the next lot that react that way.

In reply to GrahamD:

You are completely right.

Try to get the instructor away from clients and approach very gently.

Might stick in your craw, but will have a slightly better chance of success.

In reply to JJL:




What I 've found works is to approach openly and enthusiastically friendly, with no hint of any 'issue' to be discussed. After a bit of a chat you can generally inveigle enough info about them to have a good idea of their identity. At this point you can can politely address the real issue. Since (a) you have established an initial rapport, and (b) they realise that you 'know where they live', they tend to be more amenable to behaviour change. And if they don't comply then you know where to go next to sort out issues.

I 've used this approach successfully 3 times in the last year at one of my local crags where (a related) set of organisations has regularly had groups causing issues with local climbers. Most recent occasion was when one of their groups taped off one the main sectors to discourage use by others (and in so doing discouraged you from accessing other sectors). They then left these tapes in place over the weekend (because they were returning the next week to continue)!

In reply to Willi Crater: The most important point of all this is why we should have to quietly point out their errors. They are supposed to be professionals and are supposed to know these things. In a dangerous situation I will intervene loudly and promptly. In these 'poor practice' situations the softly softly approach is first option, but their arrogance is often outstanding. I have been told by one 'instructor', "I have been climbing for a year and have all the required qualifications, who are you to tell me that I am not observing good practice!" There is no answer to that without it all getting acrimonious. I back off, often leaving the crag as I don't want my day spoiled by an arrogant arse. Unfortunately the equipment, the crag and the students are left to suffer.
(This was on Masson Lees with the rope through well worn staples!)

In reply to all:

This is a neglected issue that hasn't received enough attention, in books, magazines, clubs - almost everywhere. The "quiet word in the ear" approach from individual climbers will only achieve so much. How about an open letter from the BMC to all clubs, including University clubs (especially those, perhaps). My impression is that it's not just laziness - a lot of climbers are simply unaware.

In reply to bpmclimb: Add 'outdoor activity' businesses to that list as they are the main offenders in my experience. They are also making money out of the good will of people like Gary!

In reply to bpmclimb:


I agree that many people are not aware, but I would note that my Uni club (not that I am a student) not only makes sure to avoid using the bolts directly except where necessary (leaving Y-hangs/screwgates/quickdraws up whenever anyone else will be climbing the route) but also donates to the relevant bolt fund after each sport trip. I'm sure many other clubs either do the same or would do if they were better-informed.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

In which case, good show! I'm sure that Uni clubs are often - maybe even generally - wise to this issue. However, I have seen a fair few who weren't.