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When bolting a line do you generally attempt to orient the hanger vertically or do you try to align the hole of the hanger with the bolt stud?
I have noticed that hangers that are not vertically oriented can cause a two point loading of the carabiner clipped to the hanger and this results with a load transfer occurring further from the spine of the carabiner. This results in a lower load carrying capacity and greater chance of carabiner failure.
Thoughts or recommendations?
I'm new to this forum, is there a way to post images to help me explain?
I have noticed that hangers that are not vertically oriented can cause a two point loading of the carabiner clipped to the hanger and this results with a load transfer occurring further from the spine of the carabiner. This results in a lower load carrying capacity and greater chance of carabiner failure.
Thoughts or recommendations?
I'm new to this forum, is there a way to post images to help me explain?
1
In reply to Topher:
I can't help with the hanger orientation but you can upload photos to your UKC account and link them in your post (although I'm not sure what category this would come under) or use a photo sharing site like photobucket and put a clickable link in your post. You can't actually embed images in these forums, I guess to keep things lightweight and running more smoothly.
I can't help with the hanger orientation but you can upload photos to your UKC account and link them in your post (although I'm not sure what category this would come under) or use a photo sharing site like photobucket and put a clickable link in your post. You can't actually embed images in these forums, I guess to keep things lightweight and running more smoothly.
1
In reply to Topher:
Your profile says you live on Portland (I'm assuming Dorset, rather than Oregon) and the de facto standard there is glue in staples.
Your profile says you live on Portland (I'm assuming Dorset, rather than Oregon) and the de facto standard there is glue in staples.
In reply to Topher:
Align the hanger with the bottom of the clipping hole directly underneath the bolt/stud. It will rotate to this position anyway under load.
Align the hanger with the bottom of the clipping hole directly underneath the bolt/stud. It will rotate to this position anyway under load.
In reply to jimtitt:
Absolutely Jim. This is one of my pet hates. Not only will it rotate to that position, in doing so it will unscrew the nut. Sadly there are some brainless people with drills.
> Align the hanger with the bottom of the clipping hole directly underneath the bolt/stud. It will rotate to this position anyway under load.
Absolutely Jim. This is one of my pet hates. Not only will it rotate to that position, in doing so it will unscrew the nut. Sadly there are some brainless people with drills.
1
In reply to jimtitt:
Hi Jim, have you got a picture of this? I think I understand what you mean but I'd be interested in seeing it if you do have a picture.
Cheers
Hi Jim, have you got a picture of this? I think I understand what you mean but I'd be interested in seeing it if you do have a picture.
Cheers
In reply to jimtitt:
I've even seen some badly (ie wrongly) orientated hangers on indoor walls - really annoys me too.
Edit: the hanger in this photo is correctly placed IMO - you can even see the 'down' arrow graphic on the hanger:
http://s139.photobucket.com/user/clintcummins/media/08526spacebabble/IMG_29...
> Align the hanger with the bottom of the clipping hole directly underneath the bolt/stud. It will rotate to this position anyway under load.
I've even seen some badly (ie wrongly) orientated hangers on indoor walls - really annoys me too.
Edit: the hanger in this photo is correctly placed IMO - you can even see the 'down' arrow graphic on the hanger:
http://s139.photobucket.com/user/clintcummins/media/08526spacebabble/IMG_29...
Post edited at 12:15
In reply to Mike Nolan:
Like the picture linked to above.
> Hi Jim, have you got a picture of this? I think I understand what you mean but I'd be interested in seeing it if you do have a picture.
> Cheers
Like the picture linked to above.
1
There are some issues that have been coming up with bolt hangers being positioned as shown in the picture posted by Fraser.
One report involved a climber taking a relatively short fall on a bolt that did not have the hanger oriented vertically but at some angle (undetermined at this point). The way the bolt was clipped caused the load to transfer from the top carabiner into the hanger further from the spine and more towards the nose of the carabiner. The carabiner failed and the climber fell significantly further but only had some minor injuries. The carabiner was returned to the manufacturer and they concluded that the carabiner failed in a way that is consistent with a dynamic load close to the nose. I haven't found any literature that defines the hanger orientation or as you mention the force required to move the hanger if it is placed vertically. It also seems apparent that if the top biner is clipped so that the gate is positioned towards the bolt head side of the hanger then the loading would be more in line with the carabiner spine. Although this wouldn't matter if the bolt hanger was oriented vertically.
Petzl seems to illustrate different approaches in their literature so it is unclear to me what they recommend but I get the point made above regarding the alignment of the hole and bolt.
Petzl's vertical hanger illustration: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p128/512dude/Untitled112.jpg
Illustration showing load further from carabiner spine on in correctly oriented hanger: http://s127.photobucket.com/user/512dude/media/Untitled111%20copy.jpg.html
In the image below, if the top biner was clipped with the gate facing right the load would be more in line with the spine.
Typical hanger installation with quick draw attached: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p128/512dude/BCLPiD5CMAAeNey.jpg
Hanger and carabiner showing potential two point loading: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p128/512dude/biner.jpg
Post edited at 17:00
In reply to Topher:
You don't have to be too smart to see what happens when this set up is weighted. The hanger WILL turn anti clock until the krab is directly in line with the bolt. This unscrews the nut. Further swinging about on it unscrews the nut further. This in turn prompts posts on here like 'second bolt on Lord of the Flies is broken.
> Petzl's vertical hanger illustration: http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p128/512dude/Untitled112.jpg
You don't have to be too smart to see what happens when this set up is weighted. The hanger WILL turn anti clock until the krab is directly in line with the bolt. This unscrews the nut. Further swinging about on it unscrews the nut further. This in turn prompts posts on here like 'second bolt on Lord of the Flies is broken.
1
In reply to EddInaBox:
Have to second EddInaBox - if you're bolting on Portland use glue in staples.
Have to second EddInaBox - if you're bolting on Portland use glue in staples.
Post edited at 17:12
In reply to Topher:
I very much doubt the difference in load point when falling on a hanger that's even vaguely downwards would be enough to snap a krab and presume any such snapped krabs would have been gate-open for unrelated reasons.
However, it does seem like a good opportunity for hanger manufacturers to improve their kit by bending the hanger at the base of the hole slightly so it's in line with the bolt hole.
I very much doubt the difference in load point when falling on a hanger that's even vaguely downwards would be enough to snap a krab and presume any such snapped krabs would have been gate-open for unrelated reasons.
However, it does seem like a good opportunity for hanger manufacturers to improve their kit by bending the hanger at the base of the hole slightly so it's in line with the bolt hole.
4
In reply to jon:
I think if bolt hangers were to appear on Lord of the Flies they would 'fail" for quite different reasons.
> You don't have to be too smart to see what happens when this set up is weighted. The hanger WILL turn anti clock until the krab is directly in line with the bolt. This unscrews the nut. Further swinging about on it unscrews the nut further. This in turn prompts posts on here like 'second bolt on Lord of the Flies is broken.
I think if bolt hangers were to appear on Lord of the Flies they would 'fail" for quite different reasons.
1
In reply to john arran:
Improved that for you Alternatively just use ovals.
> I very much doubt the difference in load point when falling on a hanger that's even vaguely downwards would be enough to snap a krab and presume any such snapped krabs would have been gate-open for unrelated reasons.
> However, it does seem like a good opportunity for karabiner manufacturers to improve their kit by changing the design so that they are compatible with the millions of hangers that have been installed over the last half a century or so rather than scratching for the last 10th of a gram weight saving.
Improved that for you Alternatively just use ovals.
In reply to john arran:
Rust...?
> I think if bolt hangers were to appear on Lord of the Flies they would 'fail" for quite different reasons.
Rust...?
In reply to jimtitt:
Yes. So often you see climbers armed with the latest little toy karabiners at sports crags. Karabiners that are (must be?) aimed at trad climbers. My sports quickdraws are the biggest chunkiest ones I can get my hands on (around...)
Yes. So often you see climbers armed with the latest little toy karabiners at sports crags. Karabiners that are (must be?) aimed at trad climbers. My sports quickdraws are the biggest chunkiest ones I can get my hands on (around...)
3
In reply to jon:
That's what I do , but then you can have problems with the krab getting tangled with the bolt stud or nut, especially with 12mm studding.
As you know
No such problems with glue ins though, especially the Bolt Product ones
> Yes. So often you see climbers armed with the latest little toy karabiners at sports crags. Karabiners that are (must be?) aimed at trad climbers. My sports quickdraws are the biggest chunkiest ones I can get my hands on (around...)
That's what I do , but then you can have problems with the krab getting tangled with the bolt stud or nut, especially with 12mm studding.
As you know
No such problems with glue ins though, especially the Bolt Product ones
Post edited at 16:21
1
In reply to Rick Graham:
Actually if you look at my photo that illustrates that point Rick, you'll see it's not a big fat krab at all - in fact it's possible that a fat krab in that instance wouldn't have got into that position. http://www2.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=176476 The culprit in that case was more the Petzl hanger with 12mm bolt. I don't know if their hangers are slightly different for 10 or 12mm bolts - if they are then it's possible in that case that it was drilled out to accept a 12mm bolt. If all that makes sense...?
As you say though, no problems with glue-ins.
> That's what I do , but then you can have problems with the krab getting tangled with the bolt stud or nut, especially with 12mm studding.
> As you know
Actually if you look at my photo that illustrates that point Rick, you'll see it's not a big fat krab at all - in fact it's possible that a fat krab in that instance wouldn't have got into that position. http://www2.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=176476 The culprit in that case was more the Petzl hanger with 12mm bolt. I don't know if their hangers are slightly different for 10 or 12mm bolts - if they are then it's possible in that case that it was drilled out to accept a 12mm bolt. If all that makes sense...?
As you say though, no problems with glue-ins.
Post edited at 16:27
In reply to jon:
I think there can be with smaller staples, a lot depends on the shape and size of the hangers and krabs.
> As you say though, no problems with glue-ins.
I think there can be with smaller staples, a lot depends on the shape and size of the hangers and krabs.
In reply to jon:
While mine aren't the latest fanciest smallest lightest wiregates out there, I do only have one set of quickdraws and as 90-95% of the routes I climb are trad, I tend to just buy for trad, and use it on sport routes too.
While mine aren't the latest fanciest smallest lightest wiregates out there, I do only have one set of quickdraws and as 90-95% of the routes I climb are trad, I tend to just buy for trad, and use it on sport routes too.
1
In reply to Ysgo:
Well that's fine. But if you did 90 - 95% per cent sport routes and you bought skinny little quickdraws... well you can see where I'm going with this....
Well that's fine. But if you did 90 - 95% per cent sport routes and you bought skinny little quickdraws... well you can see where I'm going with this....
In reply to Topher:
Is there any reason why the hangars aren't made in a mirror image to the ones shown i.e. a fall would tighten the bolt ?
Is there any reason why the hangars aren't made in a mirror image to the ones shown i.e. a fall would tighten the bolt ?
1
In reply to dereke12000:
To some extent it might but it implies that you'd have to place the hanger wrongly to achieve that! Placed correctly, there's no need. Having placed a dozen or so home made Swiss hangers that were in fact mirror image as you describe, I can tell you they're a pain to tighten with a regular spanner - you have to rotate it upwards on the left.
Interestingly, in the 80s and early 90s there used to be thousands of home made Swiss hangers on crags around Chamonix that were massively thick steel, hot dip galvanised - bombproof, you'd think. They weren't handed as such - the part that you clip was horizontal rather than being to the left (or right) of the centre line of the bolt. This meant that to clip them properly you had to clip the krab upwards. People who didn't know that clipped downwards which placed the krab in the worst orientation possible. I know personally of at least one krab that snapped due to being wrongly clipped in one of these hangers - and we're talking big thick krabs back in 1990!
To some extent it might but it implies that you'd have to place the hanger wrongly to achieve that! Placed correctly, there's no need. Having placed a dozen or so home made Swiss hangers that were in fact mirror image as you describe, I can tell you they're a pain to tighten with a regular spanner - you have to rotate it upwards on the left.
Interestingly, in the 80s and early 90s there used to be thousands of home made Swiss hangers on crags around Chamonix that were massively thick steel, hot dip galvanised - bombproof, you'd think. They weren't handed as such - the part that you clip was horizontal rather than being to the left (or right) of the centre line of the bolt. This meant that to clip them properly you had to clip the krab upwards. People who didn't know that clipped downwards which placed the krab in the worst orientation possible. I know personally of at least one krab that snapped due to being wrongly clipped in one of these hangers - and we're talking big thick krabs back in 1990!
In reply to Topher:
There´s plenty of people have made parallel hangers, Salewa made loads at one time and Raumer http://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_clista.asp?cat=stainless_steel_h... amongst others still do. I do as well. They are useful in some rigging applications but a pain to clip normal sport climbing.
Salewa made another design in 8mm rod which was symmetrical as the eye was directly below the bolt but they didn´t last long.
Right-handed hangers are as jon pointed out awkward to install and anyway not a solution to since the installer has no way of knowing which way the climber is going to clip and no idea where they are going to fall off either.
Personally I don´t see any issue with what you illustrated and karabiner breakage is usually down to other factors, in fact having hangers which can rotate has probably saved a good number from failure anyway.
There´s plenty of people have made parallel hangers, Salewa made loads at one time and Raumer http://www.raumerclimbing.com/eng/prodotti_clista.asp?cat=stainless_steel_h... amongst others still do. I do as well. They are useful in some rigging applications but a pain to clip normal sport climbing.
Salewa made another design in 8mm rod which was symmetrical as the eye was directly below the bolt but they didn´t last long.
Right-handed hangers are as jon pointed out awkward to install and anyway not a solution to since the installer has no way of knowing which way the climber is going to clip and no idea where they are going to fall off either.
Personally I don´t see any issue with what you illustrated and karabiner breakage is usually down to other factors, in fact having hangers which can rotate has probably saved a good number from failure anyway.
In reply to Topher:
The ones I referred to as mirror image were a homemade mirror image of the old square Mammut hanger, on the left here: http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_zoom.php?dpid=Ojo8PjslISIrLA,, I think there may still be some on this route: L'Inversée (6c+)
The hot dip galvanised ones - I thought I still had some somewhere but can't lay my hands on them - are along the lines of the ones Jim has linked to as far as orientation is concerned, but they were made of VERY thick steel and were rectangular.
Ths Swiss have a long history of making their own hangers. Piola has used thousands on his routes. He continues to do so though now he only uses glue-ins - which he's had made in Turkey!
The ones I referred to as mirror image were a homemade mirror image of the old square Mammut hanger, on the left here: http://www.supertopo.com/inc/photo_zoom.php?dpid=Ojo8PjslISIrLA,, I think there may still be some on this route: L'Inversée (6c+)
The hot dip galvanised ones - I thought I still had some somewhere but can't lay my hands on them - are along the lines of the ones Jim has linked to as far as orientation is concerned, but they were made of VERY thick steel and were rectangular.
Ths Swiss have a long history of making their own hangers. Piola has used thousands on his routes. He continues to do so though now he only uses glue-ins - which he's had made in Turkey!
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