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On the Cullin.
Have you climbed it?
What grade do you think it is?
Hard to believe it is a Severe....
Have you climbed it?
What grade do you think it is?
Hard to believe it is a Severe....
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Somewhere between Severe and Hard Severe, but not V Diff. (I suppose it may just have been once, before a few crucial bits fell off it.)
Somewhere between Severe and Hard Severe, but not V Diff. (I suppose it may just have been once, before a few crucial bits fell off it.)
In reply to The Ice Doctor:
I think quite a lot of the grading on Cuillin Ridge is questionable
EG West Ridge of Inaccessible Pinnacle. I first led this in the 1960's in mist. Big boots, wet holds, felt slightly off balance, no protection. Felt quite relieved to reach the top. Thought it hard for a V Diff.
The same comment applies to the TD gap. That was many years later during a traverse of the ridge. I was weighed down by a rucksac and in big boots. Again I thought it was hard for a V Diff.
They used to say "There is nothing harder than V Diff on the Traverse" Maybe that's changed now?
I think quite a lot of the grading on Cuillin Ridge is questionable
EG West Ridge of Inaccessible Pinnacle. I first led this in the 1960's in mist. Big boots, wet holds, felt slightly off balance, no protection. Felt quite relieved to reach the top. Thought it hard for a V Diff.
The same comment applies to the TD gap. That was many years later during a traverse of the ridge. I was weighed down by a rucksac and in big boots. Again I thought it was hard for a V Diff.
They used to say "There is nothing harder than V Diff on the Traverse" Maybe that's changed now?
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Once, in approach shoes and with little pro as part of the ridge traverse, and as a mere VS leader I thought HVD was spot on as it's easy VD climbing but a bit bold and unlikely looking and exposed.
I thought the TD gap was HVD 4a ish, safe and a bit thrutchy but maybe with a bigger grade error warning as it was bitter and due to a short queue I got cold and couldn't feel my fingers (the idea I can virtually solo onsight a "hard severe" in approach shoes and iced hands is daft) ... the reason people think its harder is probably conditions and wearing a rucksack which makes the moves up the V cleft to reach the hand traverse really awkward .. (on a yorkshire grit crag it would be easy VD).
Once, in approach shoes and with little pro as part of the ridge traverse, and as a mere VS leader I thought HVD was spot on as it's easy VD climbing but a bit bold and unlikely looking and exposed.
I thought the TD gap was HVD 4a ish, safe and a bit thrutchy but maybe with a bigger grade error warning as it was bitter and due to a short queue I got cold and couldn't feel my fingers (the idea I can virtually solo onsight a "hard severe" in approach shoes and iced hands is daft) ... the reason people think its harder is probably conditions and wearing a rucksack which makes the moves up the V cleft to reach the hand traverse really awkward .. (on a yorkshire grit crag it would be easy VD).
Post edited at 10:10
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
Millions of years ago, pottering about the Cuillin as a big booted Diff climber, thought it was a Diff.
Easier than Kings Chimney and Window Buttress but harder than Collies Route or the Inn Pin easy way. About the same as Nicholsons Chimney.
Millions of years ago, pottering about the Cuillin as a big booted Diff climber, thought it was a Diff.
Easier than Kings Chimney and Window Buttress but harder than Collies Route or the Inn Pin easy way. About the same as Nicholsons Chimney.
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In reply to alan moore:
It must have been millions of years ago - because twenty years ago, when I was climbing HVS/E1, I thought Naismith's was substantially harder than Window Buttress (a v unmemorable V.diff) and many grades harder than Collie's or the In Pin easy way. And Nicolson's Chimney!! (FFS). Collie's is Diff at most (the one on Sron na Ciche, not the one on Basteir Tooth which is Mod), and In Pin easy way and Nicholson's are Mod. I never did King's Chimney, but Mike Lates told me it was a doddle, much easier than it looks - an easy Mod solo.
I suppose you could say the TD Gap's a bit like Crack and Corner at Stanage. Hard because it's very polished. (IMHO, harder than V.Diff).
It would be interesting to hear opinions from folks who've done Naismith's Route on the Tooth recently. I thought the crux, shortly after the belay ledge, was at least 4a.
Not saying these things are hard. Just trying to get the grades right. (PS. I think Mike's made a definite mistake giving Arrow Route diff in his guide. )
> Millions of years ago, pottering about the Cuillin as a big booted Diff climber, thought it was a Diff.
> Easier than Kings Chimney and Window Buttress but harder than Collies Route or the Inn Pin easy way. About the same as Nicholsons Chimney.
It must have been millions of years ago - because twenty years ago, when I was climbing HVS/E1, I thought Naismith's was substantially harder than Window Buttress (a v unmemorable V.diff) and many grades harder than Collie's or the In Pin easy way. And Nicolson's Chimney!! (FFS). Collie's is Diff at most (the one on Sron na Ciche, not the one on Basteir Tooth which is Mod), and In Pin easy way and Nicholson's are Mod. I never did King's Chimney, but Mike Lates told me it was a doddle, much easier than it looks - an easy Mod solo.
I suppose you could say the TD Gap's a bit like Crack and Corner at Stanage. Hard because it's very polished. (IMHO, harder than V.Diff).
It would be interesting to hear opinions from folks who've done Naismith's Route on the Tooth recently. I thought the crux, shortly after the belay ledge, was at least 4a.
Not saying these things are hard. Just trying to get the grades right. (PS. I think Mike's made a definite mistake giving Arrow Route diff in his guide. )
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I did Naismith's for the first time last year, seconding since I'm a very occasional rock climber. I thought the crux was at least Severe and far harder than the little bulge on the continuation to Am Bhasteir. My leader found Naismith's a lot harder than he remembered and we wondered if some key holds have fallen off.
I did Naismith's for the first time last year, seconding since I'm a very occasional rock climber. I thought the crux was at least Severe and far harder than the little bulge on the continuation to Am Bhasteir. My leader found Naismith's a lot harder than he remembered and we wondered if some key holds have fallen off.
In reply to rif:
Many thanks for confirming my memories of it. I thought the crux was possibly 4b. Certainly 4a. Perhaps people are getting confused with the much easier Collie's Route round to the right. It's well known that it had lost some crucial holds ... and the original belay ledge! Also, of course, it's massively exposed and intimidating (can one think of another such steep and exposed route of its standard in the UK?) Also (typical UKC), no one ever bothers to talk about its quality. A fantastic route, truly fantastic and outrageously bold for its date (1898!) – one of the very hardest in the country, if not the hardest.
Many thanks for confirming my memories of it. I thought the crux was possibly 4b. Certainly 4a. Perhaps people are getting confused with the much easier Collie's Route round to the right. It's well known that it had lost some crucial holds ... and the original belay ledge! Also, of course, it's massively exposed and intimidating (can one think of another such steep and exposed route of its standard in the UK?) Also (typical UKC), no one ever bothers to talk about its quality. A fantastic route, truly fantastic and outrageously bold for its date (1898!) – one of the very hardest in the country, if not the hardest.
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In reply to rif:
Maybe something has gone since I did it in 2001... easy 4a tops then just above the midway ledge. The short bulge on the continuation to Am Bhastier above was a 4b move for me (but Ive been told there is a sneaky bypass round to the right).
Maybe something has gone since I did it in 2001... easy 4a tops then just above the midway ledge. The short bulge on the continuation to Am Bhastier above was a 4b move for me (but Ive been told there is a sneaky bypass round to the right).
In reply to Offwidth:
Well, I said possibly 4b, certainly 4a. Not quite sure what you mean by 'easy 4a'. I've never been able to divide technical grades up like that The move above the 'Mouth' on Am Basteir is certainly 4b, poss harder, but it is just a bolder problem move off a safe-ish ledge (albeit 'rather airy') I was happy to do that unroped, but I certainly would not solo Naismith's.
Most people will climb Naismith's in big boots. It's also hugely intimidating for its standard. I see that Mike (Lates) now gives it Severe, which I think is correct.
Quite a good picture of it here:
https://heavywhalley.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/2007-skye-naismiths-route-...
Can't remember exactly, but the crux is somewhere just below his left foot, I think.
> Maybe something has gone since I did it in 2001... easy 4a tops then just above the midway ledge. The short bulge on the continuation to Am Bhastier above was a 4b move for me (but Ive been told there is a sneaky bypass round to the right).
Well, I said possibly 4b, certainly 4a. Not quite sure what you mean by 'easy 4a'. I've never been able to divide technical grades up like that The move above the 'Mouth' on Am Basteir is certainly 4b, poss harder, but it is just a bolder problem move off a safe-ish ledge (albeit 'rather airy') I was happy to do that unroped, but I certainly would not solo Naismith's.
Most people will climb Naismith's in big boots. It's also hugely intimidating for its standard. I see that Mike (Lates) now gives it Severe, which I think is correct.
Quite a good picture of it here:
https://heavywhalley.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/2007-skye-naismiths-route-...
Can't remember exactly, but the crux is somewhere just below his left foot, I think.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
I led it once, tired, in trainers in two pitches with no runners between the belays; the second pitch off a shitty belay on the midway ledge, as our rope was too short to reach all the way. I thought it was 3c (ie not quite a normal graded move)... may have changed though. I am simply not good enough to be doing 4b moves like that. I thought the bulge up above was a juggy 4b boulder problem (footwork wasn't an issue so trainers made no difference) but we did the shorter but steeper way.
I led it once, tired, in trainers in two pitches with no runners between the belays; the second pitch off a shitty belay on the midway ledge, as our rope was too short to reach all the way. I thought it was 3c (ie not quite a normal graded move)... may have changed though. I am simply not good enough to be doing 4b moves like that. I thought the bulge up above was a juggy 4b boulder problem (footwork wasn't an issue so trainers made no difference) but we did the shorter but steeper way.
Post edited at 17:19
In reply to Offwidth:
Did it yesterday as part of an onsight solo attempt in trail running shoes (inov-8s). Was bone dry and very solid - would really have taken a concerted effort to fall off it. The downclimb into the gap, on the other hand, was horrendous.
> I thought the TD gap was HVD 4a ish, safe and a bit thrutchy but maybe with a bigger grade error warning as it was bitter and due to a short queue I got cold and couldn't feel my fingers (the idea I can virtually solo onsight a "hard severe" in approach shoes and iced hands is daft) ... the reason people think its harder is probably conditions and wearing a rucksack which makes the moves up the V cleft to reach the hand traverse really awkward .. (on a yorkshire grit crag it would be easy VD).
Did it yesterday as part of an onsight solo attempt in trail running shoes (inov-8s). Was bone dry and very solid - would really have taken a concerted effort to fall off it. The downclimb into the gap, on the other hand, was horrendous.
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In reply to Offwidth:
I'm not sure there's any real disagreement between us, though you seem to be wanting to play down this magnificent route. I can't quite make up my mind/remember which is the harder pitch on the Cuillin main ridge: the TD Gap or Naismith's. They are so different. The TD Gap is not very exposed, and really unpleasantly polished (very unattractive, shiny basalt - a rather charmless obstacle), rather than the gabbro wonder that is Naismith's. I wish we could talk about overall quality rather than quibble over quite ridiculous modern technical grades for relatively easy routes.
Anyhow, here's a scan of picture of it that I've always rather liked from Blackshaw's classic 'Mountaineering', taken from my original 1965 edition. It's a bit blurred on the left because it's a very thick Penguin paperback, and the page is very curved in the gutter.
http://www.gordonstainforthbelper.co.uk/images/NaismithsBasteirBlackshaw.jp...
I'm not sure there's any real disagreement between us, though you seem to be wanting to play down this magnificent route. I can't quite make up my mind/remember which is the harder pitch on the Cuillin main ridge: the TD Gap or Naismith's. They are so different. The TD Gap is not very exposed, and really unpleasantly polished (very unattractive, shiny basalt - a rather charmless obstacle), rather than the gabbro wonder that is Naismith's. I wish we could talk about overall quality rather than quibble over quite ridiculous modern technical grades for relatively easy routes.
Anyhow, here's a scan of picture of it that I've always rather liked from Blackshaw's classic 'Mountaineering', taken from my original 1965 edition. It's a bit blurred on the left because it's a very thick Penguin paperback, and the page is very curved in the gutter.
http://www.gordonstainforthbelper.co.uk/images/NaismithsBasteirBlackshaw.jp...
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
It's amazing, especially onsight after most of the ridge. I will never forget it. I was in that elated zone you hit when exhausted but confident, and knowing the end of the traverse was going to be reached.
It's amazing, especially onsight after most of the ridge. I will never forget it. I was in that elated zone you hit when exhausted but confident, and knowing the end of the traverse was going to be reached.
Post edited at 19:08
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
To be fair to UKC, the OP did ask for comments about the grade, which could be why the thread has concentrated on this aspect rather than any other
To be fair to UKC, the OP did ask for comments about the grade, which could be why the thread has concentrated on this aspect rather than any other
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
It was certainly bold enough for its date in all conscience, but Willie Naismith took the rather modern precaution of exploring the upper section on a rope from above before leading it from the bottom ...
It was certainly bold enough for its date in all conscience, but Willie Naismith took the rather modern precaution of exploring the upper section on a rope from above before leading it from the bottom ...
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In reply to The Ice Doctor:
I would say V-diff is fair. Felt easier than the TD gap. The upper wall onto Am Bastier maybe 4a? Definitely no 4b anywhere.
What did you think?
I would say V-diff is fair. Felt easier than the TD gap. The upper wall onto Am Bastier maybe 4a? Definitely no 4b anywhere.
What did you think?
In reply to Bob Aitken:
Even so, what he did was stupendous. Then, c. 5-10 years later, came Owen Glynn Jones, raising the standard by about another full adjectival grade again. And then Herford, who actually raised the standard to HVS (by modern technical standards, but truthfully, verging on E1 considering the extremely poor gear he had.) Edwards and Kirkus, in the 30s, just a shade harder, not much. Then Birtwistle, half a grade more. Then Joe Brown, in late 40s, somewhere between a half and full adjectival grade harder than Birtwistle.
Even so, what he did was stupendous. Then, c. 5-10 years later, came Owen Glynn Jones, raising the standard by about another full adjectival grade again. And then Herford, who actually raised the standard to HVS (by modern technical standards, but truthfully, verging on E1 considering the extremely poor gear he had.) Edwards and Kirkus, in the 30s, just a shade harder, not much. Then Birtwistle, half a grade more. Then Joe Brown, in late 40s, somewhere between a half and full adjectival grade harder than Birtwistle.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Wall? I remember it as a very short, very undercut bulge. One hard boulder problem-like move.
> I would say V-diff is fair. Felt easier than the TD gap. The upper wall onto Am Bastier maybe 4a? Definitely no 4b anywhere.
Wall? I remember it as a very short, very undercut bulge. One hard boulder problem-like move.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Yes, a sort of wee bulging wall. A good bit more than one move though, and you wouldn't want to fall off it!
Yes, a sort of wee bulging wall. A good bit more than one move though, and you wouldn't want to fall off it!
In reply to Offwidth:
Rope! Luxury! We 'ad to do it on rolled oop t-shirts!
> I led it once, tired, in trainers in two pitches with no runners between the belays; the second pitch off a shitty belay on the midway ledge, as our rope was too short to reach all the way.
Rope! Luxury! We 'ad to do it on rolled oop t-shirts!
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
You seem now to be agreeing with me a bit. I remember there being only one hard move, and then easier. Re. 'landing', you needed some good spotters, sure, because you would plunge about 300 feet to your death there if it went badly wrong.
You seem now to be agreeing with me a bit. I remember there being only one hard move, and then easier. Re. 'landing', you needed some good spotters, sure, because you would plunge about 300 feet to your death there if it went badly wrong.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
The tricky move is some way up the wall I'd say, not the first move. I think holds must have come off this or something; v-diff seemed right previous times but it did feel a good bit harder when I went up last time (summer 2012).
The tricky move is some way up the wall I'd say, not the first move. I think holds must have come off this or something; v-diff seemed right previous times but it did feel a good bit harder when I went up last time (summer 2012).
In reply to Michael Gordon:
OK, we might be talking about something different here. I'm talking about the most direct route up to the summit of Am Basteir above the Tooth. The normal route goes up a longer pitch (because the terrace below it shelves so steeply down to the right) just round to the right of what I'm talking about, which can't be more than c. 6-8 feet right of the crest/front arete of the buttress.
OK, we might be talking about something different here. I'm talking about the most direct route up to the summit of Am Basteir above the Tooth. The normal route goes up a longer pitch (because the terrace below it shelves so steeply down to the right) just round to the right of what I'm talking about, which can't be more than c. 6-8 feet right of the crest/front arete of the buttress.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
It's directly above the top of Lota Coire Route I think. Pretty sure it's the normal way up, though the new guide seems to mention an easier way to the right.
Looking at the guide my way may be the '4b' and yours the 5b?
It's directly above the top of Lota Coire Route I think. Pretty sure it's the normal way up, though the new guide seems to mention an easier way to the right.
Looking at the guide my way may be the '4b' and yours the 5b?
In reply to craigloon:
The SMC Skye guidebooks (current and previous) give South Crack on the In Pinn "Hard Very Difficult".
Quirky, maybe, but not wrong - it's a V Diff with a short, well-protected harder, quite physical couple of moves.
Mild Severe would be just as fair, but "that was pretty stiff for V Diff" is a much more satisfying thought than "that really wasn't too bad for Severe".
> We don't have an HVD grade in Scotland ; )
The SMC Skye guidebooks (current and previous) give South Crack on the In Pinn "Hard Very Difficult".
Quirky, maybe, but not wrong - it's a V Diff with a short, well-protected harder, quite physical couple of moves.
Mild Severe would be just as fair, but "that was pretty stiff for V Diff" is a much more satisfying thought than "that really wasn't too bad for Severe".
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Yes, exactly that - having looked at Mike's guidebook again, p.70.
> It's directly above the top of Lota Coire Route I think. Pretty sure it's the normal way up, though the new guide seems to mention an easier way to the right.
> Looking at the guide my way may be the '4b' and yours the 5b?
Yes, exactly that - having looked at Mike's guidebook again, p.70.
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