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I have often fancied working toward an 'athlete level' of fitness and skill with in rock climbing - but I am interested to know where people think that level is? Or, what it means?
For e.g..
Is it defined by the grade you climb compared with general population (or whatever the top few percentile lies) - or is comparing to a wider population irrelevant?
Or, perhaps it can be defined by a fitness level where you have to have a high degree of athletic performance to attain - say F8b/E8 etc.. and upward?
Or.. is it more about how fully you apply yourself in terms of training and improving performance?
NB:
- Not interested in 'everyone is an athlete' arguments - lets face it, it is not true
- Also, yes, it is about personal journey/experience not labels blah blah - but 'athlete' is a feted term so I am still interested to know at what point people are considered 'athletes' in rock climbing
For e.g..
Is it defined by the grade you climb compared with general population (or whatever the top few percentile lies) - or is comparing to a wider population irrelevant?
Or, perhaps it can be defined by a fitness level where you have to have a high degree of athletic performance to attain - say F8b/E8 etc.. and upward?
Or.. is it more about how fully you apply yourself in terms of training and improving performance?
NB:
- Not interested in 'everyone is an athlete' arguments - lets face it, it is not true
- Also, yes, it is about personal journey/experience not labels blah blah - but 'athlete' is a feted term so I am still interested to know at what point people are considered 'athletes' in rock climbing
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In reply to natetan:
To the vast majority of climbers, even those operating at quite high grades its a meaningless term.
To the vast majority of climbers, even those operating at quite high grades its a meaningless term.
Post edited at 11:46
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In reply to natetan:
Give up work, call climbing your profession. There you go your an athlete, no change needed in skill, strength, or commitment.
In all seriousness I'm not sure what answer you're after...
Give up work, call climbing your profession. There you go your an athlete, no change needed in skill, strength, or commitment.
In all seriousness I'm not sure what answer you're after...
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In reply to natetan:
When you beat bear grylls at the 'hanging of Malham Cove for as long as you can' competition.
When you beat bear grylls at the 'hanging of Malham Cove for as long as you can' competition.
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In reply to natetan:
It's pretty meaningless, beyond saying that someone partaking in a certain amount of athletic activity is an athlete. Which I suppose applies even if they aren't a very good one.
You seem to conflating athlete with elite. I'm an athlete, I train most days to compete in athletics, but I'm not an elite athlete.
It's pretty meaningless, beyond saying that someone partaking in a certain amount of athletic activity is an athlete. Which I suppose applies even if they aren't a very good one.
You seem to conflating athlete with elite. I'm an athlete, I train most days to compete in athletics, but I'm not an elite athlete.
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In reply to natetan:
Threads inviting exact definitions of ill-defined concepts seem to be in vogue. There's not one correct answer to these questions, just a spectrum of opinion. They might engender some interesting discussion; unfortunately, they also tend to invite dogmatic statements of "fact" from people who think they're right about everything. Let's hope there's not too much of the latter this time
Threads inviting exact definitions of ill-defined concepts seem to be in vogue. There's not one correct answer to these questions, just a spectrum of opinion. They might engender some interesting discussion; unfortunately, they also tend to invite dogmatic statements of "fact" from people who think they're right about everything. Let's hope there's not too much of the latter this time
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In reply to natetan:
Old saying is that everyone can get up 5s, climbing starts at 6s and sport climbing at 7s (french grade).
So by that definition, to being an athlete... you should be clockin' french 7s or higher. Before that, you're just an hobbiest or punter. Albeit, you can certainly call yourself a climber what ever the grade...
Old saying is that everyone can get up 5s, climbing starts at 6s and sport climbing at 7s (french grade).
So by that definition, to being an athlete... you should be clockin' french 7s or higher. Before that, you're just an hobbiest or punter. Albeit, you can certainly call yourself a climber what ever the grade...
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I don't think 'athlete' is ill defined. Every sport has elite level sportspeople or squads. His questions is at what level does this happen with climbing.
Unfortunately climbing is so badly organised as a competitive sport, and even defining what is elite performance is difficult as some (if not all) the 'best' climbers don't participate in competition.
I would say an athlete apposed to a keen hobbyist would start at the level where by your genetic predisposition becomes difficult if not impossible to overcome through decent training (stab in the dark at ~8a ish). Proper athletes with the mental ability to push training and those with decent natural talent will get above this, but still the pyramid is pretty wide at 8c. So I would say elite athelte level starts above this.
I don't think 'athlete' is ill defined. Every sport has elite level sportspeople or squads. His questions is at what level does this happen with climbing.
Unfortunately climbing is so badly organised as a competitive sport, and even defining what is elite performance is difficult as some (if not all) the 'best' climbers don't participate in competition.
I would say an athlete apposed to a keen hobbyist would start at the level where by your genetic predisposition becomes difficult if not impossible to overcome through decent training (stab in the dark at ~8a ish). Proper athletes with the mental ability to push training and those with decent natural talent will get above this, but still the pyramid is pretty wide at 8c. So I would say elite athelte level starts above this.
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In reply to natetan:
and once the collective replies give an answer we should ask what a brand ambassador is. That phrase is really annoying.
and once the collective replies give an answer we should ask what a brand ambassador is. That phrase is really annoying.
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In reply to mark_wellin:
That's possibly a different question, unless you think 'athlete' is synonymous with 'elite'. The term 'athlete' probably implies something more than punter level, but neither does it imply elite. To be considered elite someone should be regularly climbing at the very highest grades, measured in global terms and not just by UK standards. However at what grade you set the boundary is entirely arbitrary.
The Oxford Dictionary definition of 'athlete' is "a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise". Being proficient is a long way short of being an elite performer. The problem with climbing is how you decide what is meant by proficient in an activity which doesn't necessarily judge itself in entirely measurable terms? Grade is only part of it, and ultimately the most important achievement is staying alive. An experienced VS climber who can safely get up anything at that grade and can deal with any situation he might come across is arguably more proficient than someone who forces their way up much harder routes taking falls and who lacks the experience and skills to cope with the unexpected.
> I don't think 'athlete' is ill defined. Every sport has elite level sportspeople or squads. His questions is at what level does this happen with climbing.
That's possibly a different question, unless you think 'athlete' is synonymous with 'elite'. The term 'athlete' probably implies something more than punter level, but neither does it imply elite. To be considered elite someone should be regularly climbing at the very highest grades, measured in global terms and not just by UK standards. However at what grade you set the boundary is entirely arbitrary.
The Oxford Dictionary definition of 'athlete' is "a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise". Being proficient is a long way short of being an elite performer. The problem with climbing is how you decide what is meant by proficient in an activity which doesn't necessarily judge itself in entirely measurable terms? Grade is only part of it, and ultimately the most important achievement is staying alive. An experienced VS climber who can safely get up anything at that grade and can deal with any situation he might come across is arguably more proficient than someone who forces their way up much harder routes taking falls and who lacks the experience and skills to cope with the unexpected.
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In reply to natetan:
My electronic bathroom scale instructions tell me that I can call myself an athlete if I train more than 14 hours a week.
A couple more hours sitting on the boulder mats at the wall (topless, of course) each week and bam! I'm in.
My electronic bathroom scale instructions tell me that I can call myself an athlete if I train more than 14 hours a week.
A couple more hours sitting on the boulder mats at the wall (topless, of course) each week and bam! I'm in.
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In reply to fried:
a quick flick through the pics in the new Peak Limestone North guide and you'll see quite a few Arc'Athletes with the logo subtly on display.
I think you're on to something
a quick flick through the pics in the new Peak Limestone North guide and you'll see quite a few Arc'Athletes with the logo subtly on display.
I think you're on to something
In reply to mark_wellin:
I was interested, so I looked the word up in about 5 different dictionaries before posting. Each dictionary has three or four distinctly different definitions, and the dictionaries themselves differ considerably from each other. That's about as ill-defined as a word gets.
> I don't think 'athlete' is ill defined.
I was interested, so I looked the word up in about 5 different dictionaries before posting. Each dictionary has three or four distinctly different definitions, and the dictionaries themselves differ considerably from each other. That's about as ill-defined as a word gets.
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Haha fair enough. I didn't even know there were 5 different dictionary makers!
I guess my thinking was when in a conversation about performance sport, athlete would apply to a a proportion of participants operating above what is considered good for a punter (think all footballers in the lower couple of leagues and the squad players in the prem). One step above is elite athlete which, as someone said, are people operating at world class level (star players in the prem).
Maybe it's just me, but I thought those definitions in relation to professional sport were a given. No one at the local wall would call themselves an athlete would they? Until they're bouldering/ climbing something note worthy in the local community/ uk. Just like you wouldnt call yourself an athlete if you played football for a team in the 6th tier league. You're just a good amateur.
Haha fair enough. I didn't even know there were 5 different dictionary makers!
I guess my thinking was when in a conversation about performance sport, athlete would apply to a a proportion of participants operating above what is considered good for a punter (think all footballers in the lower couple of leagues and the squad players in the prem). One step above is elite athlete which, as someone said, are people operating at world class level (star players in the prem).
Maybe it's just me, but I thought those definitions in relation to professional sport were a given. No one at the local wall would call themselves an athlete would they? Until they're bouldering/ climbing something note worthy in the local community/ uk. Just like you wouldnt call yourself an athlete if you played football for a team in the 6th tier league. You're just a good amateur.
In reply to mark_wellin:
Wolfram Alpha seems to agree....
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=define+athlete
Wolfram Alpha seems to agree....
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=define+athlete
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In reply to natetan:
As a term the first time I think I heard it applied was the Sid Perou film "Rock Athlete" in the 1980's featuring Ron Fawcett when training was becoming more prominent in pushing standards. As a term it didn't really gain traction until the last few years when it has been adopted by sponsored climbers.
Cascading down from the top level the term hasn't really been adopted by dedicated amateurs but given your post perhaps it is only a matter of time.
As a term the first time I think I heard it applied was the Sid Perou film "Rock Athlete" in the 1980's featuring Ron Fawcett when training was becoming more prominent in pushing standards. As a term it didn't really gain traction until the last few years when it has been adopted by sponsored climbers.
Cascading down from the top level the term hasn't really been adopted by dedicated amateurs but given your post perhaps it is only a matter of time.
In reply to mark_wellin:
Climbing has a different ethos to a lot of sport, indeed many on these forums argue that it isn't a sport. This is perhaps why the term athlete seems a bit odd.
Big Ron considered himself a 'rock athlete', I doubt many before him did, maybe Pete Livesey. I'm sure most people operating in the higher grades consider themselves athletes, reflecting the training they put in to improve their athletic performance. I don't think it has a lot to do with professionalism.
I knew a guy years ago who played rugby with my Dad, he went from an amateur club playing in a regional league to Sale. It was before rugby union went professional, but he effectively jumped from tier 6 to tier 1 of English Rugby. Was he only an athlete once he had signed for Sale?
Climbing has a different ethos to a lot of sport, indeed many on these forums argue that it isn't a sport. This is perhaps why the term athlete seems a bit odd.
Big Ron considered himself a 'rock athlete', I doubt many before him did, maybe Pete Livesey. I'm sure most people operating in the higher grades consider themselves athletes, reflecting the training they put in to improve their athletic performance. I don't think it has a lot to do with professionalism.
I knew a guy years ago who played rugby with my Dad, he went from an amateur club playing in a regional league to Sale. It was before rugby union went professional, but he effectively jumped from tier 6 to tier 1 of English Rugby. Was he only an athlete once he had signed for Sale?
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In reply to mark_wellin:
I find it difficult to accept the conflation of 'athleticism' and 'being able to earn your living from doing it'.
Just as arbitrary, but perhaps more defensible is the 'training for' (as opposed to just 'doing') distinction. To justify the tag 'athlete' implies a level of commitment and dedication that goes beyond doing something just because it fun (climbing for most people?) It implies that the level/quality of performance is more important than the execution of the performance itself and therefore justifies spending time and money doing something else (and usually not as much fun) in the pursuit of better performance.
> Maybe it's just me, but I thought those definitions in relation to professional sport were a given.
I find it difficult to accept the conflation of 'athleticism' and 'being able to earn your living from doing it'.
Just as arbitrary, but perhaps more defensible is the 'training for' (as opposed to just 'doing') distinction. To justify the tag 'athlete' implies a level of commitment and dedication that goes beyond doing something just because it fun (climbing for most people?) It implies that the level/quality of performance is more important than the execution of the performance itself and therefore justifies spending time and money doing something else (and usually not as much fun) in the pursuit of better performance.
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In reply to Marek:
+1 for that (if I had to pick one of the many possible meanings)
> Just as arbitrary, but perhaps more defensible is the 'training for' (as opposed to just 'doing') distinction.
+1 for that (if I had to pick one of the many possible meanings)
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In reply to natetan:
Athlete level is defined as the point where you can boulder indoors with your top off without being laughed at.
Athlete level is defined as the point where you can boulder indoors with your top off without being laughed at.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I know the term annoys you in a climbing context, but an athlete is someone who displays athleticism, which can certainly apply in climbing.
> Try taking up athletics.
I know the term annoys you in a climbing context, but an athlete is someone who displays athleticism, which can certainly apply in climbing.
Post edited at 18:00
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In reply to natetan:
Just for laugh not serious! 5+ to7b weekend warrior or 7b+ to 8c club runner to good club runner 8c+ aand above athlete
Just for laugh not serious! 5+ to7b weekend warrior or 7b+ to 8c club runner to good club runner 8c+ aand above athlete
Post edited at 18:11
In reply to natetan:
Would agree with others that there's a difference between 'athlete' and 'elite athlete'. Someone who goes running regularly as training (for getting better at running) may be considered an athlete but they need not be anywhere as good at it as an 'elite athlete' (the top 1%?).
Would agree with others that there's a difference between 'athlete' and 'elite athlete'. Someone who goes running regularly as training (for getting better at running) may be considered an athlete but they need not be anywhere as good at it as an 'elite athlete' (the top 1%?).
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To clarify.. I do not see 'athlete' as the same as 'elite' but if you are 'elite' you are probably an athlete.. And what is elite anyway? (Perhaps the same question? Which would make a definition that changes over time)
- Full time: saying you are an athlete because you are climbing full time does not really cut-it; I am climbing full time for the foreseeable few years but would certainly not consider myself an athlete..
- Earning a living; the same goes for earning a living from it; being a savvy with social media is what will tip the balance between a high level climber and paid high level climber. Also lets not forget the countless people (athletes perhaps?) climbing very hard without fanfare.
- To say the term is irrelevant to climbing (say only to athletics) I find a bit odd there are definitely many men and women who are athletes across the disciplines of climbing. It seems some people do not like the term though.. I am struggling to see any issue with it's legitimacy..
'Athlete' is a commonly used word for people, usually, operating in a committed manner at a high standard within their sport.
I guess the question is; what is that standard in climbing?
I tend to have some agreement with DWS gibraltar's suggestion of 8c+ and upward.. Although personally I might err toward 8c and upward especially if this is not just a one-off.
- Full time: saying you are an athlete because you are climbing full time does not really cut-it; I am climbing full time for the foreseeable few years but would certainly not consider myself an athlete..
- Earning a living; the same goes for earning a living from it; being a savvy with social media is what will tip the balance between a high level climber and paid high level climber. Also lets not forget the countless people (athletes perhaps?) climbing very hard without fanfare.
- To say the term is irrelevant to climbing (say only to athletics) I find a bit odd there are definitely many men and women who are athletes across the disciplines of climbing. It seems some people do not like the term though.. I am struggling to see any issue with it's legitimacy..
'Athlete' is a commonly used word for people, usually, operating in a committed manner at a high standard within their sport.
I guess the question is; what is that standard in climbing?
I tend to have some agreement with DWS gibraltar's suggestion of 8c+ and upward.. Although personally I might err toward 8c and upward especially if this is not just a one-off.
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In reply to natetan:
'Elite' in sporting terms is often thought of in percentage terms, e.g. the top 1% partaking in that sport/activity.
But if you mean current climbing grades, what about E9+ headpoint, E7+ onsight?
'Elite' in sporting terms is often thought of in percentage terms, e.g. the top 1% partaking in that sport/activity.
But if you mean current climbing grades, what about E9+ headpoint, E7+ onsight?
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Not a bad suggestion for a trad perspective.. though I would be surprised if 1 in 100 people can do E9+ headpoint or E7 onsight... That sounds more like 1 in 1000..
Not a bad suggestion for a trad perspective.. though I would be surprised if 1 in 100 people can do E9+ headpoint or E7 onsight... That sounds more like 1 in 1000..
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In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
That's me out then!
People at work think I'm an athlete. People at work don't see people I see who I think are athletes. I aspire to be athletic but get the giggles too much and on occasion can't even stay the right way up!
> Athlete level is defined as the point where you can boulder indoors with your top off without being laughed at.
That's me out then!
People at work think I'm an athlete. People at work don't see people I see who I think are athletes. I aspire to be athletic but get the giggles too much and on occasion can't even stay the right way up!
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Fair enough - so at or above E7 onsight, E9 headpoint, F8c.. this seems reasonable.
I better get stronger :P
Fair enough - so at or above E7 onsight, E9 headpoint, F8c.. this seems reasonable.
I better get stronger :P
In reply to natetan:
I think consistency would have to play a part in being elite at these levels. Quite a few more people can and have climbed those grades (not onsight maybe) once or twice after peaking or seiging. But only that one time. Obviously very impressive but not elite, IMO
I think consistency would have to play a part in being elite at these levels. Quite a few more people can and have climbed those grades (not onsight maybe) once or twice after peaking or seiging. But only that one time. Obviously very impressive but not elite, IMO
In reply to natetan:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlete
An athlete ... is a person who competes in ... sports that involve physical strength, speed and/or endurance. Athletes may be professionals or amateurs ... athletes have particularly well-developed physiques obtained by extensive physical training and strict exercise accompanied by a strict dietary regimen.
There you have it, once you compete, train hard, diet and have a well ripped torso you're in!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athlete
An athlete ... is a person who competes in ... sports that involve physical strength, speed and/or endurance. Athletes may be professionals or amateurs ... athletes have particularly well-developed physiques obtained by extensive physical training and strict exercise accompanied by a strict dietary regimen.
There you have it, once you compete, train hard, diet and have a well ripped torso you're in!
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In reply to natetan:
In terms of fitness I think that comes down to endurance. So for instance you should be able to climb many pitches of a chosen grade over a continuous period of hours without tiring.
In terms of fitness I think that comes down to endurance. So for instance you should be able to climb many pitches of a chosen grade over a continuous period of hours without tiring.
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In reply to natetan:
As an athlete...mans gotta bust out nuff tricks innit
Iz talkin nuff bar stars typeshit wid muscle ups n shit. Hench f*cking pecs n abs innit an can crimp with such magnificent strength, one has to be a horrendous beast.
As an athlete...mans gotta bust out nuff tricks innit
Iz talkin nuff bar stars typeshit wid muscle ups n shit. Hench f*cking pecs n abs innit an can crimp with such magnificent strength, one has to be a horrendous beast.
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In reply to natetan:
The other question is who is in the 100 or 1000. Anyone who has ever led a trad route, anyone who climbs outdoors at least once a month during the summer season, anyone who is out most weekends? There isn't a well defined climbing 'population'. Anyother way of looking at it is that there can't be more than a couple of dozen people in the UK at that level.
Anyway, as shark said above - Ron Fawcett is the original rock athlete. That's a very high entry bar, especially if attempted in 80s climbing shoes!
> Not a bad suggestion for a trad perspective.. though I would be surprised if 1 in 100 people can do E9+ headpoint or E7 onsight... That sounds more like 1 in 1000..
The other question is who is in the 100 or 1000. Anyone who has ever led a trad route, anyone who climbs outdoors at least once a month during the summer season, anyone who is out most weekends? There isn't a well defined climbing 'population'. Anyother way of looking at it is that there can't be more than a couple of dozen people in the UK at that level.
Anyway, as shark said above - Ron Fawcett is the original rock athlete. That's a very high entry bar, especially if attempted in 80s climbing shoes!
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In reply to The New NickB:
So is a fat, useless shot putter an athlete?
> I know the term annoys you in a climbing context, but an athlete is someone who displays athleticism.
So is a fat, useless shot putter an athlete?
In reply to natetan:
I think currently the term athlete within the context of climbing has been some what hijacked by gear manufacturers, who describe the 'team' of rock climbers or whatever that they sponsor as athletes. This is marketing, let's think of the most impressive way we can describe these people. Just go onto any gear manufacturers website to see what I mean. So that probably answers one of your other questions about whether you need to be climbing in the upper reaches grade wise, definitely yes although where the exact boundary is, is difficult to say and probably not important as long as results are seen by the manufacturer. Interestingly, in recent years some manufacturers have dipped their toes into the idea that they might also sell if they sponsor someone climbing around VS, i.e. where the majority lies. If that strategy works/worked out then I'm sure that those people will also be classed as athletes.
I think currently the term athlete within the context of climbing has been some what hijacked by gear manufacturers, who describe the 'team' of rock climbers or whatever that they sponsor as athletes. This is marketing, let's think of the most impressive way we can describe these people. Just go onto any gear manufacturers website to see what I mean. So that probably answers one of your other questions about whether you need to be climbing in the upper reaches grade wise, definitely yes although where the exact boundary is, is difficult to say and probably not important as long as results are seen by the manufacturer. Interestingly, in recent years some manufacturers have dipped their toes into the idea that they might also sell if they sponsor someone climbing around VS, i.e. where the majority lies. If that strategy works/worked out then I'm sure that those people will also be classed as athletes.
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In reply to natetan:
Athletic is used when referring to those sports, or components of sports, in which physical, strength and/or endurance is a major determinant of success. As such pretty much anyone who trains to enter a running race is doing something athletic and therefore may be considered an athlete (albeit often not a high performing one!) By contrast some other top sportspeople (maybe golfers, snooker players or showjumpers) could be at the top of their sport but not be considered athletes because athleticism doesn't constitute a critical part of their sport.
Climbing covers a wide range of the scale depending on the approach taken by the individual. It's often said that Pete Livesey was the first climber to use structured physical training to enable him to climb harder, which may give an indication of what kind of grades (E4 or so) are possible without taking an athletic approach to climbing, but in fairness that only applies to naturally high performers. If a climber is plateaued at HVS and undertakes a physical training programme to break into E1 then what they're doing is improving athletic performance and they could rightfully describe themselves as athletes if they chose to.
ps. There are many climbers seemingly in denial about how similar climbing is, at even quite modest levels, to other athletic sports, preferring to see it only as a lifestyle choice or a risk-based activity but without acknowledging the huge part athleticism has to play in climbing performance. It's all of the above, of course, in different proportions to different climbers, but to deny climbing is athletic at all is very odd.
Athletic is used when referring to those sports, or components of sports, in which physical, strength and/or endurance is a major determinant of success. As such pretty much anyone who trains to enter a running race is doing something athletic and therefore may be considered an athlete (albeit often not a high performing one!) By contrast some other top sportspeople (maybe golfers, snooker players or showjumpers) could be at the top of their sport but not be considered athletes because athleticism doesn't constitute a critical part of their sport.
Climbing covers a wide range of the scale depending on the approach taken by the individual. It's often said that Pete Livesey was the first climber to use structured physical training to enable him to climb harder, which may give an indication of what kind of grades (E4 or so) are possible without taking an athletic approach to climbing, but in fairness that only applies to naturally high performers. If a climber is plateaued at HVS and undertakes a physical training programme to break into E1 then what they're doing is improving athletic performance and they could rightfully describe themselves as athletes if they chose to.
ps. There are many climbers seemingly in denial about how similar climbing is, at even quite modest levels, to other athletic sports, preferring to see it only as a lifestyle choice or a risk-based activity but without acknowledging the huge part athleticism has to play in climbing performance. It's all of the above, of course, in different proportions to different climbers, but to deny climbing is athletic at all is very odd.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
What is your view and why?
> So is a fat, useless shot putter an athlete?
What is your view and why?
In reply to natetan:
It simply means that you have a sponsorship deal, and your sponsors have jumped on the "all our climbers are athletes" bandwagon.
> I have often fancied working toward an 'athlete level' of fitness and skill with in rock climbing - but I am interested to know where people think that level is? Or, what it means?
It simply means that you have a sponsorship deal, and your sponsors have jumped on the "all our climbers are athletes" bandwagon.
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In reply to john arran:
A good answer John.. and I agree that it is strange to deny climbing is athletic. Although perhaps if people do not engage further than low grades then it may be hard to comprehend the level of athleticism required to climb the higher levels of the sport.
P.s. The Angel Falls route you guys put up has always stood out as one of the most inspiring things I have read about.
A good answer John.. and I agree that it is strange to deny climbing is athletic. Although perhaps if people do not engage further than low grades then it may be hard to comprehend the level of athleticism required to climb the higher levels of the sport.
P.s. The Angel Falls route you guys put up has always stood out as one of the most inspiring things I have read about.
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In reply to Frank the Husky:
All sponsored climbers are athletes, but not all athletes are sponsored, Shirley?!
Why is it a bandwagon to say that they are athletes. They are.
All sponsored climbers are athletes, but not all athletes are sponsored, Shirley?!
Why is it a bandwagon to say that they are athletes. They are.
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In reply to john arran:
Absolutely, which is why climbing is regularly used as a secondary sport to complement training for many other disciplines. In this respect it is similar to swimming, while I would count running for endurance training as and integral part of training rather than a second sport.
I started climbing to help with recovery and to add some other aspects to my Judo training, before taking it up as a second, main sport. I would also definitely consider myself a (former) athlete, even though barely being paid throughout my career.
I also agree with a broad definition of "athlete" as a person taking part in a physically demanding sport, possibly limited to persons where this activity is easily recognizable in their physique.
CB
> ps. There are many climbers seemingly in denial about how similar climbing is, at even quite modest levels, to other athletic sports, preferring to see it only as a lifestyle choice or a risk-based activity but without acknowledging the huge part athleticism has to play in climbing performance.
Absolutely, which is why climbing is regularly used as a secondary sport to complement training for many other disciplines. In this respect it is similar to swimming, while I would count running for endurance training as and integral part of training rather than a second sport.
I started climbing to help with recovery and to add some other aspects to my Judo training, before taking it up as a second, main sport. I would also definitely consider myself a (former) athlete, even though barely being paid throughout my career.
I also agree with a broad definition of "athlete" as a person taking part in a physically demanding sport, possibly limited to persons where this activity is easily recognizable in their physique.
CB
In reply to Michael Gordon:
In an athletics context we often talk about semi-elite, elite and super elite. Super elites are setting world records, or at least within 1% of them, elites within 5% of the very best and semi-elite within 10%.
So for a men's road 10k, semi-elite is probably around 31 minutes, elite maybe 29:45 and super elite around 28:30.
In an athletics context we often talk about semi-elite, elite and super elite. Super elites are setting world records, or at least within 1% of them, elites within 5% of the very best and semi-elite within 10%.
So for a men's road 10k, semi-elite is probably around 31 minutes, elite maybe 29:45 and super elite around 28:30.
In reply to john arran:
or maybe Oscar Eckenstein- the first 'rock gymnast'/boulderer?
O. E. was, no doubt, an accomplished 'rock gymnast'. Here's what Crowley had to say : "He [Eckenstein] was a finished athlete; his right arm in particular was so strong that he had only to get a couple of fingers on to a sloping ledge of an overhanging rock above his head and he could draw himself slowly up by that alone . . .He was rather short and sturdily built."
Crowley continues: "His climbing was invariably clean, orderly and intelligible; mine can hardly be described as human. His movements were a series, mine were continuous; he used definite muscles, I used my whole body".
http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/Bouldering_History1.01.html
> It's often said that Pete Livesey was the first climber to use structured physical training to enable him to climb harder...
or maybe Oscar Eckenstein- the first 'rock gymnast'/boulderer?
O. E. was, no doubt, an accomplished 'rock gymnast'. Here's what Crowley had to say : "He [Eckenstein] was a finished athlete; his right arm in particular was so strong that he had only to get a couple of fingers on to a sloping ledge of an overhanging rock above his head and he could draw himself slowly up by that alone . . .He was rather short and sturdily built."
Crowley continues: "His climbing was invariably clean, orderly and intelligible; mine can hardly be described as human. His movements were a series, mine were continuous; he used definite muscles, I used my whole body".
http://www128.pair.com/r3d4k7/Bouldering_History1.01.html
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
If i do it one handed what does that make me ?
> When you beat bear grylls at the 'hanging of Malham Cove for as long as you can' competition.
If i do it one handed what does that make me ?
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In reply to The New NickB:
A fat useless shot putter is an athlete but not athletic. A brilliant rock climber is athletic but not an athlete.
I don't think my view would have been unusual before all the sponsored athlete Americanism stuff hijacked the terminology. I reluctantly concede that it may have successfully done so.
> What is your view and why?
A fat useless shot putter is an athlete but not athletic. A brilliant rock climber is athletic but not an athlete.
I don't think my view would have been unusual before all the sponsored athlete Americanism stuff hijacked the terminology. I reluctantly concede that it may have successfully done so.
Post edited at 21:04
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Steady on,I'm not that hard.they say when Ronnie Pickering has a nightmare,it's the nightmare that wakes up in a cold sweat.
Steady on,I'm not that hard.they say when Ronnie Pickering has a nightmare,it's the nightmare that wakes up in a cold sweat.
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In reply to Wsdconst:
Really? I heard Ronnie Pickering once kicked a horse under the chin. We call it's desendents giraffes.
Really? I heard Ronnie Pickering once kicked a horse under the chin. We call it's desendents giraffes.
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In reply to Robert Durran:
I agree with you. Athletes do athletics, climbers climb. It's yet another creeping Americanism.
I agree with you. Athletes do athletics, climbers climb. It's yet another creeping Americanism.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Let's take in how rediculous that statement is!
You don't seem to be able to accept that words have multiple meanings in the English language, stressing the English bit there as it clearly isn't an Americanism. Ask Big Ron.
> A fat useless shot putter is an athlete but not athletic. A brilliant rock climber is athletic but not an athlete.
Let's take in how rediculous that statement is!
> I don't think my view would have been unusual before all the sponsored athlete Americanism stuff hijacked the terminology. I reluctantly concede that it may have successfully done so.
You don't seem to be able to accept that words have multiple meanings in the English language, stressing the English bit there as it clearly isn't an Americanism. Ask Big Ron.
Post edited at 22:25
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Yeah I heard that too,I also heard when Ronnie Pickering chops onions,it's the onions that cry.
Yeah I heard that too,I also heard when Ronnie Pickering chops onions,it's the onions that cry.
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In reply to The New NickB:
I can understand where he's coming from. I'd describe myself as athletic but not an athlete.
I can understand where he's coming from. I'd describe myself as athletic but not an athlete.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
The fact remains, words have meaning and to say that someone who displays a high level of athleticism in a sport, other than athletics, isn't an athlete, somewhat ignores that meaning.
> I can understand where he's coming from. I'd describe myself as athletic but not an athlete.
The fact remains, words have meaning and to say that someone who displays a high level of athleticism in a sport, other than athletics, isn't an athlete, somewhat ignores that meaning.
2
In reply to The New NickB:
I wonder how you would define similar intervals for sport climbing? With the "world record" being ~9b/+, does this make ~9a the elite, maybe with ~8c/+ for the semi-elite?
Anyway, according to this list there are ~300 people who have redpointed >=9a, which I think is kind of interesting
http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php
I wonder how you would define similar intervals for sport climbing? With the "world record" being ~9b/+, does this make ~9a the elite, maybe with ~8c/+ for the semi-elite?
Anyway, according to this list there are ~300 people who have redpointed >=9a, which I think is kind of interesting
http://escalade9.wifeo.com/par-nationalite.php
In reply to The New NickB:
There are plenty of nouns and their associated adjectives which do not necessarily imply each other in either direction. Mother/maternal, professor/professorial. Prince/princely spring immediately to mind. So take a moment to see that my statement was far from ridiculous. Athletic could be defined to mean 'having the common attributes of an athlete'; you can be athletic without being an athlete (the climber) or an athlete without being athletic (the fat, useless shot putter).
I actually did concede that meanings can change. Unfortunately and pretentiously so in this case. The 'Black Diamond Athlete' thing which now seems universal and horribly commercial does seem to be an imported Americanism.
The 'Rock Athlete' thing proves nothing. Ron was no more an athlete than a Rock Star is actually a star. There's another one: star/stellar.
> Let's take in how rediculous that statement is!
There are plenty of nouns and their associated adjectives which do not necessarily imply each other in either direction. Mother/maternal, professor/professorial. Prince/princely spring immediately to mind. So take a moment to see that my statement was far from ridiculous. Athletic could be defined to mean 'having the common attributes of an athlete'; you can be athletic without being an athlete (the climber) or an athlete without being athletic (the fat, useless shot putter).
> You don't seem to be able to accept that words have multiple meanings in the English language, stressing the English bit there as it clearly isn't an Americanism.
I actually did concede that meanings can change. Unfortunately and pretentiously so in this case. The 'Black Diamond Athlete' thing which now seems universal and horribly commercial does seem to be an imported Americanism.
> Ask Big Ron
The 'Rock Athlete' thing proves nothing. Ron was no more an athlete than a Rock Star is actually a star. There's another one: star/stellar.
Post edited at 03:15
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Which is fair enough.. But if you happen to be climbing 8c+ maybe reconsider - you are clearly an athlete
Which is fair enough.. But if you happen to be climbing 8c+ maybe reconsider - you are clearly an athlete
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Why is it pretentious? I think the term was used deliberately (in Rock Athlete) to succinctly portray what modern rock climbing was all about. In a single word it breaks the link with the old image of tweed clad men atop Napes Needle that probably still existed in many people's minds at that time.
I think it does. The term was accepted, seen as reasonable and fair: an accurate way to describe modern climbing. Common usage is how words are defined and why their meanings change over time.
> Unfortunately and pretentiously so in this case.
Why is it pretentious? I think the term was used deliberately (in Rock Athlete) to succinctly portray what modern rock climbing was all about. In a single word it breaks the link with the old image of tweed clad men atop Napes Needle that probably still existed in many people's minds at that time.
> The 'Rock Athlete' thing proves nothing.
I think it does. The term was accepted, seen as reasonable and fair: an accurate way to describe modern climbing. Common usage is how words are defined and why their meanings change over time.
1
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In reply to stp:
I agree with all that you say. However, the book (or film - I don't recall which) might just as easily have been called Rock Dancer. That would not have meant that Fawcett was a dancer. It would just have suggested that he had some of the important attributes of a dancer. Likewise with athlete. Similar phrases might be 'computer wizard' or 'sex kitten'. Maybe even 'social climber'.
I accept that usage changes and that nowadays 'athlete' can mean anyone who is athletic (though it's use in climbing with all the commercial 'sponsored athlete' bollocks does really grate with me). However, I'm not sure that this was accepted usage in Fawcett's heyday.
I've even heard top golfers described as athletes in the USA. I bet that grates with many of those happy with the use of the word to describe climbers.
> I think the term was used deliberately (in Rock Athlete) to succinctly portray what modern rock climbing was all about........The term was accepted, seen as reasonable and fair: an accurate way to describe modern climbing.
I agree with all that you say. However, the book (or film - I don't recall which) might just as easily have been called Rock Dancer. That would not have meant that Fawcett was a dancer. It would just have suggested that he had some of the important attributes of a dancer. Likewise with athlete. Similar phrases might be 'computer wizard' or 'sex kitten'. Maybe even 'social climber'.
I accept that usage changes and that nowadays 'athlete' can mean anyone who is athletic (though it's use in climbing with all the commercial 'sponsored athlete' bollocks does really grate with me). However, I'm not sure that this was accepted usage in Fawcett's heyday.
I've even heard top golfers described as athletes in the USA. I bet that grates with many of those happy with the use of the word to describe climbers.
Post edited at 21:08
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Hard to say since it's quite a recent book.
>
> I accept that usage changes and that nowadays 'athlete' can mean anyone who is athletic. However, I'm not sure that this was accepted usage in Fawcett's heyday.
>
> I accept that usage changes and that nowadays 'athlete' can mean anyone who is athletic. However, I'm not sure that this was accepted usage in Fawcett's heyday.
>
Hard to say since it's quite a recent book.
In reply to Robert Durran:
There's the series and now the book (2011).
BTW your point was well made above.
There's the series and now the book (2011).
BTW your point was well made above.
In reply to stp:
I'm sure the phrase was originally coined about Fawcett in the eighties.
> There's the series and now the book (2011).
I'm sure the phrase was originally coined about Fawcett in the eighties.
In reply to natetan:
I would have said that an athlete was someone who trained for their discipline as an attempt to improve their physical performance as an end to itself. They train for climbing as they want to improve their grade, not to see prettier mountains
Applying cutoff strictly on time or performance level is difficuly to apply consisently - how do you handle age differences or effects as an example. Defining it as being elite doesn't work for me either - I've hit every criteria for being an elite athlete (performance level, been paid appearance money and so on) but that wasn't the moment I became an athlete.
I would have said that an athlete was someone who trained for their discipline as an attempt to improve their physical performance as an end to itself. They train for climbing as they want to improve their grade, not to see prettier mountains
Applying cutoff strictly on time or performance level is difficuly to apply consisently - how do you handle age differences or effects as an example. Defining it as being elite doesn't work for me either - I've hit every criteria for being an elite athlete (performance level, been paid appearance money and so on) but that wasn't the moment I became an athlete.
In reply to natetan:
You appear to have answered your own question here, albeit unconsciously and indirectly.
Given the vague and general level of definition for this term, you have to understand what it means to you. There is no bearded old man in a climbing helmet, sitting on a cloud-wrapped crag waiting to greet you and say "Well done thou good and faithful servant". There is no great headmaster in the sky, waiting to issue you with a certificate with 'Athlete' stamped at the top. There are climbing competitions and stuff like that which you could enter if you want that sort of thing, in which case you don't need a big discussion about it (though you may need a different one about how to find competitive events or progress your climbing career). However, if you want something other than that, you need to decide what the term means to you - if you ask other people, you'll just get what it means to them which begs the question that if you need a discussion in order to find out what you want it to mean, why do you need to bother with it in the first place?
> - Not interested in 'everyone is an athlete' arguments - lets face it, it is not true
You appear to have answered your own question here, albeit unconsciously and indirectly.
Given the vague and general level of definition for this term, you have to understand what it means to you. There is no bearded old man in a climbing helmet, sitting on a cloud-wrapped crag waiting to greet you and say "Well done thou good and faithful servant". There is no great headmaster in the sky, waiting to issue you with a certificate with 'Athlete' stamped at the top. There are climbing competitions and stuff like that which you could enter if you want that sort of thing, in which case you don't need a big discussion about it (though you may need a different one about how to find competitive events or progress your climbing career). However, if you want something other than that, you need to decide what the term means to you - if you ask other people, you'll just get what it means to them which begs the question that if you need a discussion in order to find out what you want it to mean, why do you need to bother with it in the first place?
Post edited at 09:16
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In reply to natetan:
The definition of Rock Athlete can be summed up in two words.
Charlton Chestwig.
The definition of Rock Athlete can be summed up in two words.
Charlton Chestwig.
In reply to Goucho:
It was a great wind-up; the spur of the moment ones often seem to be the best. Paul at his most mischievous... One imagines Big Ron cringing with embarrassment, while still having to attend to matters on the rock and, of course, not let down his instant admirers.
Mick
It was a great wind-up; the spur of the moment ones often seem to be the best. Paul at his most mischievous... One imagines Big Ron cringing with embarrassment, while still having to attend to matters on the rock and, of course, not let down his instant admirers.
Mick
I think athletes only exist in gyms climbing for speed. World they can actually exist and compete against each other. Pure sport is athletes place.
While normal rock climbing is something outside and often not a discipline on it's own, but a part of bigger game. Climbers hike, rappel, ski, camp and survive. We have guides instead of coaches and mountain rescue instead of massages.
It is similar to skiing. Athletes compete in Olympic games who can jump further or ski faster down the piste. But the real skiing starts at the top of Vall£e Blanche.
Post edited at 10:17
In reply to Mick Ward:
Yes, Paul had great mischief combined with wicked misinformation at times too
> It was a great wind-up; the spur of the moment ones often seem to be the best. Paul at his most mischievous... One imagines Big Ron cringing with embarrassment, while still having to attend to matters on the rock and, of course, not let down his instant admirers.
> Mick
Yes, Paul had great mischief combined with wicked misinformation at times too
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