UKC

. A woman in Paris, apparently one of the jihadi lot, blew herself up. Now I'm a fairly basic, simple sort of bloke but what I can't understand is whay are women "fighting" for a group of murderers and rapists one of whose aims is the control, subjugation and abuse of women who, in my understanding, they regard as second class citizens?

Seems odd to me.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

Because it's what their god wants.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Still don't get it. Surely its lik turkeys voting fr christmas.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

I don't think I'd ever be able to understand anybody whose prepared to blow themselves (and others) up for the sake of religion.

These people are clearly not thinking on the same lines as most people. I'd presume that for religious reasons they don't see what ISIS are doing as particularly wrong or odd possibly the opposite.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:


In the same way that God wanted Adolf Hitler to gas homosexuals and gypsies?

In reply to GriffonVulture:

More importantly, what good will the 72 virgins do her? Or does she get 72 Chippendale´s strippers?

CB

In reply to cb294:

The Qur'an doesn't specify the gender of either the martyr or the virgins, apparently.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

You're making a fundamental mistake in trying to apply logic

In reply to Alyson:

Does the Koran even mention the 72 virgins ? I've got a feeling it's one of those nasty myths or dubious interpretations rather than having any genuine basis.

As the the OP, religions seem to have a long track record is persuading/brain washing people to accept subjugation in this life with the promise of a better life once you're dead. Mormons are facing excommunication if they want to marry someone of the same gender - why would anyone accept a religion that tells them they are inferior, evil and must abandon the person they love ? Admittedly I don't know that much about Mormons so I don't the root of this doctrine, but the fact that it isn't in the teachings of Jesus Christ doesn't seem to bother many "Christians".

In reply to Indy:


Not sure it's equivalent, unless by gassing homosexuals and gypsies Hitler was helping to create a society in which Austrian dictators were treated as second-class citizens.

In reply to Alyson:

72 fumbling beginners. What more could a girl wish for?

In reply to Alyson:

Not surprising, as supposedly the original reference was to raisins made from Shiraz grapes, which was a famous sweet and in some regions also used as a endearing term for a girlfriend. Impossible to say whether this is true, as I have no idea of medieval Arabic dialects, but I read this in a very reputable journal. The author was a Egyptian professor of linguistics IIRC.

Imagine rocking up in heaven with your Kalashnikov and the rest of you suicide bomber´s belt over your shoulder, just to be given a bowl of raisins...

One would almost wish the Quran was right, just to see the nutters disappointed.

CB

In reply to Alyson:


I need more detail. Do you get to choose the gender, or do you get what you're given? Also, does it have to be 72? I'm a man of a certain age, and I'm not sure I could accommodate that many, so could I settle for my three favourites and get to know them a bit? Do they have to be virgins, or could you specify a sexy cougar who could teach you a thing or too, as I'd say that would be quite appealing for many young lads (yes Gloria, you know who you are). Finally, are these virgins hotties who have been saved for the purposes thereof, or are they virgins because no one had got the stomach for it? I don't reckon Jihadi Jason would be too keen on vaporising himself in order to face the prospect of servicing Big Brenda from the local greasy spoon.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


Exactly! Wouldn't tempt me to put down a good book, never mind blow myself up. I've got better things to do with 72 lots of ten seconds

In reply to Alyson:

Sorry you have had lots of such bad experiences. Perhaps you should have learned from your mistakes?

In reply to Yanis Nayu:


In fact there is quite a lot of detail about this, in the Haddiths if not greatly in the Koran. Both your and their er, qualities, are perpetually renewed, so you don't have to worry about embarrassing lapses in performance. They are also utterly submissive (to you, rather than Allah), and never answer back or flirt with other martyrs, just like Western women.

As Billy Connolly points out, however, you will also get 72 mothers-in-law. And who really wants to spend eternity with 72 teenage girls, squabbling and sulking?

But as to why Moslem women accept it, this may have a lot to do with identification with the aggressor. The Nazi doctrine of the role of women being "Kinder, Küche, Kirche", to repopulate the master race after total war was very popular with German women (not Godwinning here, extreme Islam can be entirely reasonably compared to Nazism). For some people, and some cultures, being forced into an inferior and controlled role seems to be readily, even joyfully, accepted.

It is a lot more mysterious why lots of European leftists and feminists act as perpetual apologists for Islam though, given that they will take massive offence a the most trivial slight or oversight or currently unfashionable use of language from Westerners, but women in Islam are essentially possessions and baby-machines.

In reply to Alyson:

10 seconds? Impressive stamina!

But they will spend eternity telling you they will still love you in the morning. Also, in the afterlife, there will only be one book to read. How good it is may be a matter of opinion (not that it would be a good idea to express any doubts about the fact).

In reply to GriffonVulture:

How about the suicide bomber who blew themselves up outside a McDonald's last Friday? They killed nobody but themselves and managed to stick ballbearings in a Big Mac... Some legacy that is; it's like a scene straight out of Four Lions.

In reply to Simon4:


This painting with a very broad brush. Guess it is more to do with a lack of education and religious nutterdom in general (religions have spread in societies nut because they provide truths, but because they provide power and control, especially of women).

A classmate of my younger daughter was just kicked out of her home by her Christian parents for staying at her boyfriends place overnight. Surprised that the parents even noticed, seeing as there are ten more kids in the family (and yes, society does pay for the oversize council flat...). Conversely, try and tell my Iranian or Turkish women colleagues that they are baby machines, should make fun viewing.

CB

In reply to cb294:

You're in the wrong thread I think mate, this one is about people making fun of things they don't understand, not serious discussion.

In reply to Chris the Tall:



I believe you are partially correct. I am told that the Arabic for virgin is very similar to the word for grape.

It appears that on arrival in Paradise these poor duped martyrs do get given their just reward - a bunch of 72 grapes.........

Unfortunately the journey to Paradise is a one way ticket only.

In reply to Removed User:

You are right, my apologies. Back to Four Lions mode...

CB

In reply to GriffonVulture:


Because they've been subjugated and controlled?

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Post of the week!

In reply to cb294:

Its not what your female iranian and turkish colleagues think they are. Its what their husbands and fathers think they Are..

I think thats the point being made

In reply to GriffonVulture:

Rubber dinghy rapids.

In reply to ericinbristol:


Cheers!

In reply to Clauso:


I'm guessing they get 36 virgins as a compromise. But, if some infidel later choked on a ballbearing laden bigmac they might get upgraded to the full 72.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

I read an article a while back when the burka debate was raging written by someone saying why they chose to wear one. For them it boiled down to moral certitude. They knew exactly what was and wasn't acceptable in their strict interpretation of their religion in a way western culture didn't. Presumably some women are attracted to ISIS because they want fundamentalism.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

I travel around Africa and the Middle East a lot on business and I'm sorry to confirm that on the few occasions when I've tried to discuss religion with Muslims I've been disappointed at their complete inability to say anything other than spout the dogma. On R4's Thought for the Day this morning Mona Siddiqui said that the mosques are to blame for the fact that Muslims only obey blindly and are not prepared to discuss or tackle issues.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

Interestingly, she doesn't appear to have been particularly devout or knowledgeable in Islam:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/19/paris-attacks-police-examine-r...

In reply to Trevers:

Strange conclusion there, she wasn't devout and then she found religion. Perhaps she studied the Koran for weeks and was a scholar when she died, who knows.

In reply to thomasadixon:


I really don't think a few weeks are sufficient time to fully understand a religion... an offshoot philosophy of it perhaps. (I think you get what I'm trying to say here).

In reply to GrahamD:


I used to know a lass who wore a hijab. She reckoned the best bit about it was having an extra 20 mins in bed in the morning because she didn't have to do her hair before she came to work. As she put it: "You've no idea how crap my hair looks under this most days."

In reply to GriffonVulture:


It may be a minor point but it isn't clear she did blow herself up.

The bomb certainly went off, they found her head and spine outside in the street but the trigger isn't obvious, whether it was her, someone else connected with her or even if the police set it off by firing at her (some reports make that sound more likely than others).

ATM it isn't even clear how she came to be wearing the vest. The French did a good job in locating them, so she wouldn't have been expecting it, given a short time to decide that was when she was going to die (hence the reports of her being in a state of panic) and then, if deciding (say by prior agreement) to go down via a suicide bomb, failing to get into a position where the bomb would cause more casualties.

Perhaps the police will figure it out in the end.

In reply to Trevers:


It's not necessarily that interesting, remember the guy arrested for wearing a dummy suicide vest to a demo? He was on licence for drug offences at the time and not a religious muslim at all.

But this misses the whole point about the contribution of Islam to Terrorism. It isn't that Islam makes you a devout religious nutter, it's that it makes you a muslim, with muslim identity politics.

In reply to Alyson:


10 seconds? Even after 10 hours that lot would still be figuring out how to unhook a bra strap.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

She's just a confused young person wanting certainty and to matter, isn't she? I imagine as long as you get those the actual ideology doesn't matter a whole lot, as long as it's cool.

jcm

In reply to winhill:

Actually I missed this. Was it recent? But he wasn't actually prepared to blow himself up though!


That's a fair point to make, and I don't think it's mutually exclusive with the one I think I'm trying to make.

In reply to winhill:


Ah bugger, I was looking forward to the headline...'Blonde Bombshell gives Cops Last Blow up Job.?

Or

Last Bango in Paris...

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

Their husbands married them after meeting them at uni, where their fathers sent them. Both families have two kids. All of them are muslims, but largely secularized, as you would expect from the educated segment of any society.

My point is that the view of women as baby machines is not specific to Islam, but, like religious fundamentalism of any flavour, associated with low education levels in general.

Anyway, I better stop here, got told off for messing up this thread with serious posts before,

CB

In reply to GriffonVulture:

It seems that Hasna Aitboulahen was a 26 year old woman who enjoyed a good time, wore jeans and cowboy hats, was into weed, wild parties and alcohol. She didn't attend a mosque.

Yet she had chosen or was persuaded to wear a suicide bomb vest.

Sounds more like a mixed up individual than a radicalised religious fanatic.

In reply to Trangia:

Maybe an indication of how incredibly dangerous it is to allow an underclass to develop...a cocktail of disadvantages, psychological & emotional characteristics, circumstances and an organisation well-able to see an opportunity. I reckon she was targeted (sic) because of her profile as an individual who was not resilient, possibly with some kind of obsessive dependency. But ultimately, she (and thousands like her) wasn't spotted as a risk, and as a result her frailties resulted in bringing huge suffering & grief on a large number of people. And so I find it hard to be sympathetic to her in such circumstances.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Almost certainly, yes.

Of course that's not mutually exclusive to being a complete ****wit and/or as mad as a box of frogs as well, is it?

In reply to Trangia:


Why can't she have been both? Indeed in European terrorism cases most of the individuals seem to be both (i.e. mixed-up/messed-up and radicalised fanatics).

In reply to TobyA:


I was about to post something similar. In fact isn't a radicalised fanatic always a mixed up individual?

In reply to Trangia:


The cowboy hat thing seems to have come from just one previous neighbour, who described the hat and they nicknamed her the cowgirl, I think that tells us much less than the fact she started wearing a niqab recently (still banned in France). She's also been banging about ISIS on social media for quite some time.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

It's amazing isn't it how often the media post mortems throw up these kids with disfunctional lives. I don't think it's any exaggeration to say that we have kids living in our street who could easily go down a similar route; their relationships with their parents look terrible, they are antisocial and verging on minor criminality, one has a gun of some sort and boasts on social media that he's going to shoot someone - OK they might never go right off the rails but it wouldn't take much more than somebody persuasive and charismatic to take an interest in them and begin to groom them.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


* terms and conditions apply...

In reply to thomasadixon:

Or that she was attracted to violence, the certainties of extremism and the prospect of notoriety, however grim. Seems to me many of the terrorists we hear about have much in common with mass shooters in US schools and churches.

While the Syrian civil war and Sunni extremism, not to mention outside involvement in S and I wars and mentoring by war veterans are all major factors in the current situation, the desire to be famous and go out with a bang that frightens (and kills) the contempories who they have grown to wildly resent, has a significant role in the decision making of some of the terrorists. I think its the secretiveness, the vindictiveness and the adventure that inspires many of them not a deep rooted commitment to Salafism or the "caliphate". I do not see this as any kind of "excuse" for their barbarism.

Much is made on the medieval nature of IS. I think their adherents and those they inspire seem thoroughly modern.

In reply to cb294:

72 virgins? I'd be happier with a couple of slags.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

This is all going a bit weird.

Number of agencies reporting that the woman didn't blow herself up, the nature of the conversation she was having with police mildly changed.

The BBC however says

"Paris raid suicide bomber 'not a woman'

French media have cast doubt on the possibility that the female cousin of the presumed ringleader of the Paris attacks blew herself up in Wednesday's police raid in the Saint-Denis suburb.

Police sources now say that the suicide bomber was in fact a man, not 26-year-old Hasna Ait Boulahcen."

Which is OK but later in the story you get this:

"In an exclusive interview with the BBC, a member of the police assault team involved in Wednesday's raid said Hasna Ait Boulahcen was "trying to say she was not linked to the terrorists, that she had nothing to do with them and wanted to surrender".
But he said that due to prior intelligence, "we knew that she was trying to manipulate us".
Prosecutors confirmed that both she and Abbaoud died in the seven-hour-long raid in the Rue Cormillon apartment on Wednesday morning."

Plus they haven't identified the third body, so that can't be her.

In reply to GriffonVulture:

Reuters is saying that the evidence points to the suicide bomber being a third person in the room with her.