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Looking at getting a new cooker. There is currently a gas cooker in but we are wanting an electric possibly with gas hobs.
There is no cooker wiring point in. How much of a job is getting a point put in. To add an extra problem, our fuse box is one that still uses fuse wire. We were looking at changing that at some point... will we have to do it now for a sparky to be willing to wire in the cooker?
There is no cooker wiring point in. How much of a job is getting a point put in. To add an extra problem, our fuse box is one that still uses fuse wire. We were looking at changing that at some point... will we have to do it now for a sparky to be willing to wire in the cooker?
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
We have a cooker with a gas hob & electric oven, I'm fairly sure that the oven only has a 13amp plug; not at home so can't check.
We have a cooker with a gas hob & electric oven, I'm fairly sure that the oven only has a 13amp plug; not at home so can't check.
In reply to Hat Dude:
so long as you only have a single oven, I think they come on a 13amp fuse, my old cooker certainly did. I think as soon as you add a double /larger oven, it needs a wiring in point - when I had a built in one as part of a kitchen refit, the sparky did this, but i'm no electrician. Incidentally, he also put a new consumer unit in as well. Don't know if this was a requirement as we asked for it
so long as you only have a single oven, I think they come on a 13amp fuse, my old cooker certainly did. I think as soon as you add a double /larger oven, it needs a wiring in point - when I had a built in one as part of a kitchen refit, the sparky did this, but i'm no electrician. Incidentally, he also put a new consumer unit in as well. Don't know if this was a requirement as we asked for it
In reply to Hat Dude:
Thanks but the one we are looking at has to be hard wired as it is over 13amp as its a double oven. The girlfriend also wants induction hobs but I'm not convinced as have always had gas
Thanks but the one we are looking at has to be hard wired as it is over 13amp as its a double oven. The girlfriend also wants induction hobs but I'm not convinced as have always had gas
Post edited at 10:56
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Not an electrician, but have done some renovation work. As I understand it, if you add a socket or hardwire something like a cooker, your wiring has to comply with current regulations, which means that you need a new circuit box with RCDs. If your fuse box is that old school, I'd seriously consider getting the house rewired.
We've got induction hobs at work, and having been sceptical, I'm impressed by them. Super quick and very efficient.
Not an electrician, but have done some renovation work. As I understand it, if you add a socket or hardwire something like a cooker, your wiring has to comply with current regulations, which means that you need a new circuit box with RCDs. If your fuse box is that old school, I'd seriously consider getting the house rewired.
We've got induction hobs at work, and having been sceptical, I'm impressed by them. Super quick and very efficient.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
I'm not an electrician but I've been reading the regs to see what I can and can't do in my house.
I'm pretty sure that any new circuit installed in a kitchen has to be RCD protected so something would have to be done at the consumer unit. If you didn't want the whole thing replaced in one go you could have a smaller box installed just to serve the one circuit.
How much work would be required to install the circuit depends on where everything is, how long the cable needs to be and how easy access is. It would be a big fat 6 mm cable so quite awkward to route through in my experience.
I'm not an electrician but I've been reading the regs to see what I can and can't do in my house.
I'm pretty sure that any new circuit installed in a kitchen has to be RCD protected so something would have to be done at the consumer unit. If you didn't want the whole thing replaced in one go you could have a smaller box installed just to serve the one circuit.
How much work would be required to install the circuit depends on where everything is, how long the cable needs to be and how easy access is. It would be a big fat 6 mm cable so quite awkward to route through in my experience.
In reply to whenry:
Easy tiger!! Though you may be right... we know it has to be done at some point and also need new socket out in.. for example we only have 2 sockets in the living room and one in the masyer bedroom. We only moved in in march so money is a bit tight
A number of people have said that but my luddite tendencies are fighting hard.
> If your fuse box is that old school, I'd seriously consider getting the house rewired.
Easy tiger!! Though you may be right... we know it has to be done at some point and also need new socket out in.. for example we only have 2 sockets in the living room and one in the masyer bedroom. We only moved in in march so money is a bit tight
> We've got induction hobs at work, and having been sceptical, I'm impressed by them. Super quick and very efficiennt
A number of people have said that but my luddite tendencies are fighting hard.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
As others have said If you want something bigger than a plug in single oven you need a dedicated supply.
We had this done a while back but were lucky in terms of disruption in that it was (reasonably easy) to thread cable down the utility room cavity wall under the consumer unit, run it under floor and pop it up under the cabinets in the kitchen. The electrician was happy to locate the isolator inside a drawer unit beside where the oven goes so we didn't need to chase a cable up through existing tiling etc. My understanding of the regs is that the isolation has to be near to and in sight of the item it is attached to so that somebody working on it can turn it off and not risk a muppet turning it back on again, out of sight in another room. It must be accessible but that doesn't mean you have to be able to get to it instantly... if the cooker was on fire, you would flip main switch to turn it off and not be grovelling in a cupboard beside it trying to find switch or reaching over it onto the wall where it would normally be in any case....
We had a second line put in at same time on a just in case basis in case we go induction.. but with power cuts common(ish) around us I quite like my LPG Hob.....
We did get a new consumer unit but that's because there were no spare slots on the old one and that pushed cost up a fair bit. The 6mm cable is pricy and awkward to handle so long runs will cost....
As others have said If you want something bigger than a plug in single oven you need a dedicated supply.
We had this done a while back but were lucky in terms of disruption in that it was (reasonably easy) to thread cable down the utility room cavity wall under the consumer unit, run it under floor and pop it up under the cabinets in the kitchen. The electrician was happy to locate the isolator inside a drawer unit beside where the oven goes so we didn't need to chase a cable up through existing tiling etc. My understanding of the regs is that the isolation has to be near to and in sight of the item it is attached to so that somebody working on it can turn it off and not risk a muppet turning it back on again, out of sight in another room. It must be accessible but that doesn't mean you have to be able to get to it instantly... if the cooker was on fire, you would flip main switch to turn it off and not be grovelling in a cupboard beside it trying to find switch or reaching over it onto the wall where it would normally be in any case....
We had a second line put in at same time on a just in case basis in case we go induction.. but with power cuts common(ish) around us I quite like my LPG Hob.....
We did get a new consumer unit but that's because there were no spare slots on the old one and that pushed cost up a fair bit. The 6mm cable is pricy and awkward to handle so long runs will cost....
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Whatever cooker you install will have a rating on a sticker - usually also in the blurb - telling you what connection it needs. Lots of ovens these days will go into an ordinary 13 amp socket, but I don't know any induction hob that will - most will require their own 10mm2 spur from the consumer unit. If you use gas, the ignition will run off 13 amp.
You can get MCBs that plug into your fuse box, which helps modernise any of your circuits to some degree. At least if the trip flips, it is straightforward to find faulty appliances by plugging in until it trips again. You can also get RCD protected sockets, though it doesn't help much with your primary problem. Consumer units aren't expensive and they don't take long to fit - a worthwhile upgrade imo.
I think extensions to kitchen circuits require BC notification in theory. Most councils are hard-pressed these days - my local one won't even conduct the electrical tests on completion these days, which they used to do if the householder did the work. A registered electrician avoids these issues by completing the sign off at the same time as doing the work...
As others have said. 6mm2 may be sufficient. Depends on length from box and projected loads. Isolator in the cupboard is the usual solution.
Whatever cooker you install will have a rating on a sticker - usually also in the blurb - telling you what connection it needs. Lots of ovens these days will go into an ordinary 13 amp socket, but I don't know any induction hob that will - most will require their own 10mm2 spur from the consumer unit. If you use gas, the ignition will run off 13 amp.
You can get MCBs that plug into your fuse box, which helps modernise any of your circuits to some degree. At least if the trip flips, it is straightforward to find faulty appliances by plugging in until it trips again. You can also get RCD protected sockets, though it doesn't help much with your primary problem. Consumer units aren't expensive and they don't take long to fit - a worthwhile upgrade imo.
I think extensions to kitchen circuits require BC notification in theory. Most councils are hard-pressed these days - my local one won't even conduct the electrical tests on completion these days, which they used to do if the householder did the work. A registered electrician avoids these issues by completing the sign off at the same time as doing the work...
As others have said. 6mm2 may be sufficient. Depends on length from box and projected loads. Isolator in the cupboard is the usual solution.
Post edited at 11:51
Thanks
An 'I'm not an electrician but...' family member is going to come and take a look but will probably need a registered sparky to come round and price stuff up by the sounds of it.
An 'I'm not an electrician but...' family member is going to come and take a look but will probably need a registered sparky to come round and price stuff up by the sounds of it.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Induction hobs are great, used to have gas but switched when redid the kitchen and they are just as good in my opinion and generally a lot easier to clean.
Most induction hobs require a dedicated supply as they are over 3KW so cant go on a 13 amp plug, though NEFF do one which sneaks in at 3KW which comes fitted with a 13 amp plug.
Agree with Whenry, I am sure the consumer unit will have to be replaced if your running new supply into the kitchen, and if your not already then the gas and water will need to be earth bonded too.
Then its down to how lucky you are with the cable runs from the consumer unit to where the cooker is..i have concrete floors in the kitchen so the cable went through the ceiling void, and luck the joists were running the right way so just two small holes otherwise half the ceiling would have had to come down !
Induction hobs are great, used to have gas but switched when redid the kitchen and they are just as good in my opinion and generally a lot easier to clean.
Most induction hobs require a dedicated supply as they are over 3KW so cant go on a 13 amp plug, though NEFF do one which sneaks in at 3KW which comes fitted with a 13 amp plug.
Agree with Whenry, I am sure the consumer unit will have to be replaced if your running new supply into the kitchen, and if your not already then the gas and water will need to be earth bonded too.
Then its down to how lucky you are with the cable runs from the consumer unit to where the cooker is..i have concrete floors in the kitchen so the cable went through the ceiling void, and luck the joists were running the right way so just two small holes otherwise half the ceiling would have had to come down !
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
On a guess that you may be re-doing kitchen at some point would cable in trunking for now with a bit of slack built in to allow it to be chased and buried in walls eventually be the neatest and most pragmatic approach for now? Gets you what you need now, no making good etc at the visual cost of some plastic trunking. If you think rest of house may need re-wired eventually/you intend re-doing kitchen you may as well go half way for now?
On a guess that you may be re-doing kitchen at some point would cable in trunking for now with a bit of slack built in to allow it to be chased and buried in walls eventually be the neatest and most pragmatic approach for now? Gets you what you need now, no making good etc at the visual cost of some plastic trunking. If you think rest of house may need re-wired eventually/you intend re-doing kitchen you may as well go half way for now?
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In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
You don't need a new consumer unit and you probably don't need your house rewired - although it's a good idea to have the wiring tested to be sure. Just because wiring is old does not mean it is unsafe. Same with CU, although MCBs are handy. Electrician will add an RCD in a separate unit on to your CU for cooker. However if you want a new CU in future may as well get it done at same time.
You don't need a new consumer unit and you probably don't need your house rewired - although it's a good idea to have the wiring tested to be sure. Just because wiring is old does not mean it is unsafe. Same with CU, although MCBs are handy. Electrician will add an RCD in a separate unit on to your CU for cooker. However if you want a new CU in future may as well get it done at same time.
1
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
We had similar done and did get a new consumer unit fitted at the same time. However the units themselves aren't hugely expensive and the whole job was, I can't recall the price but not awesomely high.
And gas hob/electric fan oven is always the way to go IMHO.
We had similar done and did get a new consumer unit fitted at the same time. However the units themselves aren't hugely expensive and the whole job was, I can't recall the price but not awesomely high.
And gas hob/electric fan oven is always the way to go IMHO.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Just a thought on the idea of having a new consumer unit fitted, there is apparently going to be an amendment in the 18th edition regs strengthening required spec on the CU; they will have to be metal/metal lined after a spate of fires caused by badly installed CUs. Although this wouldn't affect anyone having a 17th edition spec CUI installed (because work only has to comply with the regs at the time of installation) if the new CUs are seen as being so much better/safer it may be worth getting a CU that meets the new regs now.
The only issue with this is that they are quite expensive at the moment and the prices will likely drop massively when they become mandatory.
Something to ask the electrician when you get one in.
Just a thought on the idea of having a new consumer unit fitted, there is apparently going to be an amendment in the 18th edition regs strengthening required spec on the CU; they will have to be metal/metal lined after a spate of fires caused by badly installed CUs. Although this wouldn't affect anyone having a 17th edition spec CUI installed (because work only has to comply with the regs at the time of installation) if the new CUs are seen as being so much better/safer it may be worth getting a CU that meets the new regs now.
The only issue with this is that they are quite expensive at the moment and the prices will likely drop massively when they become mandatory.
Something to ask the electrician when you get one in.
In reply to Siward:
I used to think that until I had my new electric hob fitted. Super quick and best of all none of that lifting annoying gas bits to clean around them. I'd never go back to gas hobs now.
Go with the gf Idiotproof (Buxton MC) and quell those Luddite tendencies! Unless, of course, you promise to do the cleaning every day....
> And gas hob/electric fan oven is always the way to go IMHO.
I used to think that until I had my new electric hob fitted. Super quick and best of all none of that lifting annoying gas bits to clean around them. I'd never go back to gas hobs now.
Go with the gf Idiotproof (Buxton MC) and quell those Luddite tendencies! Unless, of course, you promise to do the cleaning every day....
In reply to Babika:
Don't you find though that whilst one can easily turn up the heat on an electric hob, turning it down to a simmer is a different matter. Gas is instant whereas any type of electric hob I've tried retains heat for ever.
Don't you find though that whilst one can easily turn up the heat on an electric hob, turning it down to a simmer is a different matter. Gas is instant whereas any type of electric hob I've tried retains heat for ever.
In reply to Siward:
That's true of traditional electric hobs, but with induction the pan, not the hob, heats up. It has the advantages of gas, but is supposed to be more efficient.
> Gas is instant whereas any type of electric hob I've tried retains heat for ever.
That's true of traditional electric hobs, but with induction the pan, not the hob, heats up. It has the advantages of gas, but is supposed to be more efficient.
1
In reply to Derek Furze:
They don't any more, AIUI, since the Part P rampdown which left it applying only in the bathroom and a few other edge cases, and even then only in specific circumstances. But a *new circuit* back to the CU does, wherever it is located, and that is what will be needed here if it's over 13A.
> I think extensions to kitchen circuits require BC notification in theory.
They don't any more, AIUI, since the Part P rampdown which left it applying only in the bathroom and a few other edge cases, and even then only in specific circumstances. But a *new circuit* back to the CU does, wherever it is located, and that is what will be needed here if it's over 13A.
1
In reply to Neil Williams:
A new circuit has to be notified, metal clad CCU come into the 3rd amendment and comes into force as of the first of January, all electrical install/modifications that are not notifiable should have a minor works certificate.
Mark
A new circuit has to be notified, metal clad CCU come into the 3rd amendment and comes into force as of the first of January, all electrical install/modifications that are not notifiable should have a minor works certificate.
Mark
2
In reply to Ferret:
I posed a similar question on here a week back, as we're going to have to put a feed in for an electric oven as LPG ovens are getting really hard to source with manufacturers really cutting back on their range of products. The actual regs are quite vague, For example:
Wiring regulation 134.1.1 states that manufactures instructions must be followed when installing electrical equipment. Note the 'must', which puts the onus on complying with the manufacturers instructions, no matter how onerous..
However, we also have:
The switch or control unit should be readily accessible. It should not be positioned behind or above a cooking appliance such that a person would have to reach over the appliance in order to access the switch/control unit. The horizontal distance between a cooker switch/control unit and the appliance(s) it serves must be sufficiently short for the switch to be under the control of persons relying on it for safety.
So we have 'should' for readily accessible, but 'must' for an unspecified distance for the switch to be 'under the control of persons relying on it for safety'.
Incidentally, for your switch in the drawer unit we find 'Installation of a cooker switch or control unit in a cupboard or cabinet is not recommended....In any event, wiring and other electrical equipment should generally not be fixed to a cupboard or cabinet, which may be removed in the future; they should be fixed to the building fabric.'
On the plus side the rules have very few actual prohibitions, they allow a competent sparky to arrive at a pragmatic solution without having to come up with technically compliant but practically stupid solutions. Best advice for the OP is to get a qualified electrician to look at it!
Same here, once we get the oven sorted it'll be LPG hob, (that doesn't have a solenoid that cuts off the gas on loss of power), electric oven, oil central heating and a wood/coal stove....
> We had this done a while back but were lucky My understanding of the regs is that the isolation has to be near to and in sight of the item it is attached to so that somebody working on it can turn it off and not risk a muppet turning it back on again, out of sight in another room. It must be accessible but that doesn't mean you have to be able to get to it instantly... if the cooker was on fire, you would flip main switch to turn it off and not be grovelling in a cupboard beside it trying to find switch or reaching over it onto the wall where it would normally be in any case....
I posed a similar question on here a week back, as we're going to have to put a feed in for an electric oven as LPG ovens are getting really hard to source with manufacturers really cutting back on their range of products. The actual regs are quite vague, For example:
Wiring regulation 134.1.1 states that manufactures instructions must be followed when installing electrical equipment. Note the 'must', which puts the onus on complying with the manufacturers instructions, no matter how onerous..
However, we also have:
The switch or control unit should be readily accessible. It should not be positioned behind or above a cooking appliance such that a person would have to reach over the appliance in order to access the switch/control unit. The horizontal distance between a cooker switch/control unit and the appliance(s) it serves must be sufficiently short for the switch to be under the control of persons relying on it for safety.
So we have 'should' for readily accessible, but 'must' for an unspecified distance for the switch to be 'under the control of persons relying on it for safety'.
Incidentally, for your switch in the drawer unit we find 'Installation of a cooker switch or control unit in a cupboard or cabinet is not recommended....In any event, wiring and other electrical equipment should generally not be fixed to a cupboard or cabinet, which may be removed in the future; they should be fixed to the building fabric.'
On the plus side the rules have very few actual prohibitions, they allow a competent sparky to arrive at a pragmatic solution without having to come up with technically compliant but practically stupid solutions. Best advice for the OP is to get a qualified electrician to look at it!
> We had a second line put in at same time on a just in case basis in case we go induction.. but with power cuts common(ish) around us I quite like my LPG Hob.....
Same here, once we get the oven sorted it'll be LPG hob, (that doesn't have a solenoid that cuts off the gas on loss of power), electric oven, oil central heating and a wood/coal stove....
In reply to Ridge:
Incorrect.
"... shall take account of manufacturers' instructions." BS7671:2008 Amd 3.
I normally ignore these DIY electrical threads, but, get your facts right!
> Wiring regulation 134.1.1 states that manufactures instructions must be followed when installing electrical equipment. Note the 'must', which puts the onus on complying with the manufacturers instructions, no matter how onerous..
Incorrect.
"... shall take account of manufacturers' instructions." BS7671:2008 Amd 3.
I normally ignore these DIY electrical threads, but, get your facts right!
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Anything rated over 3kw will have to be hard wired in and that means double oven which can have up to 6 kw when both grill and fan oven are switched on. Single ovens can be plugged in to a 13amp socket as you can only have the fan oven or the grill on ( both less than 3kw) and not both at the same time. Hobs have to be hard wired as each ring has at least 1.5kw, meaning all four at once could be in excess of 6kw. As a rule of thumb a 13 amp socket can take a maximum of 3kw. A stand alone cooker can have 11kw if everthing is switched on hence the need for the correct circuitry and cable size. I'm an appliance service engineer and see quite a few dangerously wired appliances.
Anything rated over 3kw will have to be hard wired in and that means double oven which can have up to 6 kw when both grill and fan oven are switched on. Single ovens can be plugged in to a 13amp socket as you can only have the fan oven or the grill on ( both less than 3kw) and not both at the same time. Hobs have to be hard wired as each ring has at least 1.5kw, meaning all four at once could be in excess of 6kw. As a rule of thumb a 13 amp socket can take a maximum of 3kw. A stand alone cooker can have 11kw if everthing is switched on hence the need for the correct circuitry and cable size. I'm an appliance service engineer and see quite a few dangerously wired appliances.
In reply to Ridge:
I think the 'not recommended' and 'generally' are pretty useful to a decent electrician who can weigh up what is 'reasonable' and proportionate in the circumstances. In our case, what he has done now works and is technically allowed and will very easily translate into a more normal or permanent set up when the kitchen is next replaced... plenty of spare cable etc so easy to re-position when the time comes.
> Incidentally, for your switch in the drawer unit we find 'Installation of a cooker switch or control unit in a cupboard or cabinet is not recommended....In any event, wiring and other electrical equipment should generally not be fixed to a cupboard or cabinet, which may be removed in the future; they should be fixed to the building fabric.'
> On the plus side the rules have very few actual prohibitions, they allow a competent sparky to arrive at a pragmatic solution without having to come up with technically compliant but practically stupid solutions. Best advice for the OP is to get a qualified electrician to look at it!
I think the 'not recommended' and 'generally' are pretty useful to a decent electrician who can weigh up what is 'reasonable' and proportionate in the circumstances. In our case, what he has done now works and is technically allowed and will very easily translate into a more normal or permanent set up when the kitchen is next replaced... plenty of spare cable etc so easy to re-position when the time comes.
In reply to Ridge:
In the interests of pedantry as demonstrated by the previous poster may I respectfully suggest that you actually sat corrected?
In the interests of pedantry as demonstrated by the previous poster may I respectfully suggest that you actually sat corrected?
1
In reply to ERB:
The latter (minor works certificate) is not required by law for a DIY job, but if you pay for the job the electrician must issue one, AIUI.
The latter (minor works certificate) is not required by law for a DIY job, but if you pay for the job the electrician must issue one, AIUI.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
If the oven works still and isn't a pill of crap, why not wait and save up a bit and then do the whole kitchen in one go?
If the oven works still and isn't a pill of crap, why not wait and save up a bit and then do the whole kitchen in one go?
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
How much should i be looking at for a new full house consumer unit parts and fitting.... ballpark figure?
How much should i be looking at for a new full house consumer unit parts and fitting.... ballpark figure?
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