UKC

Dear all,

Hoping you could help point me in the right direction.

My climbing partner and I are intermediate rock climbers (up to 6c indoors / E1 trad), we've also done some mountaineering in the Alps, ski ascents/descents up AD+.

We would like to progress, specifically with Ice and Mixed. Where would be the best, relatively price competitive place for two guys based in London. So far I've looked at Scotland and Chamonix, finding private guides to be better value for money than Glenmore Lodge type courses. Any help is appreciated.

In reply to sam_cash:
Depends what you want to learn to climb ice or snowy mountains. Euroice can be very rewarding and conditions are far more reliable. A trip to cogne (which is cheaper and better than Cham imo) is probably a similar price to glencoe maybe cheaper from London. Scotland can be great though, it tends to be more of a mountain feel, a complete experience. But yeah also more hard work and much less relieble conditions. You could learn mixed climbing at either place although perhaps Scotland is better for that.

In reply to sam_cash:
Hi Sam, we are starting to run courses at the Serrai di Sottoguda in the dolomites this year. They will be guided by Manfred Stuffer a really experienced Italian guide from south tirol and based at Casa Alfredino. The serrai is a fantastic venue and the house is only 5 minutes drive away. We're offering two different courses, one with three days guiding and one with five days, the first being £780 and the second £995. They include 7 nights at the house, the guiding and a meal together with Manfred on the first night to get together and discuss what you'll do together. Take a look here and let me know what you think! Sound like it would suit you down to the ground. : http://www.casa-alfredino.co.uk/guided-ice-climbing-packages/

In reply to sam_cash:


Quite surprised at that, have you factored in food and accom with residential courses?

In reply to sam_cash:

If water ice is more on your agenda, then the current exchange rate is excellent for a trip to Norway!

But, if you're after guiding then that might be pretty pricey! A quick google doesn't show any immediate prices, but if you contact Jakob Fink at the Old School Hostel, he might be able to help you out.

http://www.visitrjukan.com/en/things-to-do/iceclimbing/(id)/ice-climbing-co...

In reply to Jamie B:

Its possible he is comparing against the more advanced courses with less clients per instructor rather than the winter skills course (much of which he may already know I guess)

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Lodge's winter climbing course is £700pp for 5 days, so for a pair that's £280 per day all in. Most instructors and Guides that I know are advertising private guiding for 2 for approx £200-230 per day so is there really much in it?

In reply to Jamie B:

@CurlyStevo

Exactly. It's hard to make an apples to apples comparison between courses and private guiding. The main difference is that most courses (3 or 5 day courses) will evidently be more expensive and will have full days covering rope wore etc, which we don't necessarily want to spend a day doing or paying for. It seems most organised courses want to string you out a bit and squeeze as much out of you.

Scotland - private guiding currently looks like the best option, event though getting up there by sleeper is really rather expensive!

I'll be following this with interest.

I'm in the same boat with the same climbing experience minus the skiing. I'm finding the guiding costs to be out of reach for me. Ideally I'd like a couple days to learn the basics and get a little experience so that I can go my own way and progress at my own rate

In reply to sam_cash:


Not necessarily, if you book on as a matched pair then you will probably have one instructor between you for the duration, which gives a lot more scope for personalizing your experience.

I'm not acting as a sales agent for Glenmore Lodge or anyone else, just trying to get across that by the time you've factored in food and a bed the price (and content) difference is minimal.

In reply to sam_cash:

If you can climb at this standard you don't need a course - just use the time-honoured climbers' technique and get on with it.
DC

In reply to Jamie B:


The food and accommodation is pretty decent at Glenmore plus the ability to have a swim/ climb/ sauna, dry your gear and have a beer is handy.

In reply to sam_cash:

Maybe the beginners clinic at the Rjukan ice festival in Feb? Only 4 hours but only 400kr (= about £35). Then take a top-rope and get some practice in the area. You no doubt have the rope skills and once you know the basics the rest is just practice. It's run by the Old School Hostel, already mentioned about. See the FB page.

In reply to sam_cash:

To be honest, that's what our courses aim to do. The aim is not to be prescriptive, but to sit down with our guide Manfred at the beginning, decide how to spend the three days and then do it. As you say, there's not much point in teaching you to suck eggs, so you just work out what you want to get from it and then do that. What we offer is basically accomodation with a good deal on private guiding tagged on. Flights to Venice can be had for very little and the drive up is not very long either. The other aspect of it is reliability. With Scotland you really don't know what you're going to get. Sure in mid season its pretty reliable, but the fact that most crags are an hour plus walk in means you spend less time climbing. At the Serrai it's a 5 minute walk from the car to the first ice falls, and there is everything between single pitch WI2, to 3 pitch WI5+ and md grade mixed routes. If you want to get away from the serrai there are areas like Val Corpassa where you'll find 400m routes at an amenable grade, Digonera and Laste or Val di Gares, or you can head over to Alta Badia in a hour.

In reply to sam_cash:

To me, it boils down to a simple fact... Do you have all the gear needed (crampons, ice tools, some screws) or not.

If you do, a course/guide might not be needed... it ain't rocket science after all. Just get to place where you can get a feel on ice (or mized) climbing in a controlled and safe environment (ie. top-roping). Krokan -area in Rjukan is quite popular for this (you can "easily" access to top, to set up top-rope anchors), but I'm sure Cogne and elsewhere there are similar areas. After getting a feel for it, try placing the screws (or other protection). If all goes well, romp up some easier icefalls by leading them. Get on also some multibitch action.

If you don't have the gear, a course or guide is the way to go...

In reply to HeMa:


That sounds dodgy.

In reply to HeMa:

We don't have all the gear, I could probably scrape together a pair of axes from friends and buy some screws but my partner would be short most of it.

Beyond the obvious technique, we would like some pointers on fixing belays/anchors in Ice.

In reply to sam_cash:


Krokan has trees on top... hence easy.

But since you don't have the gear... course/guide or clinic with gear testing is the way to go.

The ice fest in Rjukan might be the ticket.

It really ain't rocket science, so reading a bit and common sense will most likely be enough to get you started on ice anchors... After all, quite a few people in the past (and still) have learned that way.

In reply to sam_cash:
Slightly tongue in cheek but here you go...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1AJS-hccXE&list=FLBUqqWksedVPqJYCRP8JnTA&i...

and

youtube.com/watch?v=36dOEOFZW1k&

Hope this helps

Cheers

Gaz

In reply to HeMa:

I like the notion of some multibitch action! Definitely more expensive than a guide tho!

In reply to sam_cash:

I am based in London and climb with a local club. Over the last 2-3 years several of us have started "pure" ice-climbing following several winter seasons in Scotland.

We have climbed in Austria ( flying to InnsbruckMunich) and Ecrins ( via MilanTurin). We have found the ice conditions on the continent to be much more reliable than Scotland (though not guaranteed) and travel times not that different. And when you get there the walk-ins are generally much shorter than Scotland so you can make better use of your time.

I thoroughly recommend having a guide to start off ( whether a group course or private); there is a lot to learn and, as well as their technical expertise and gear, they give you confidence to eg abseil off an Abalakov Thread or a Snow bollard.

I have been on a 3 day intro course in Ecrins with with ice-fall (http://www.ice-fall.com/ ) . Great guys and it is more like a shared guide that a formal course. However, you would need to speak reasonably good French!

A group of us from the club also shared a guide for 3 days in Austria from Mountain Elements. http://www.mountain-elements.com/ Very good on the technical stuff and they speak good English.

Based on our experience a 3 day course will give you enough experience to get independent for subsequent trips.

In reply to sam_cash:

Alternatively why not join a club that does some winter climbing as well as rock climbing in summer, it's a bit of a traditional way but it has worked for many over the years.

Get some experience with somebody who has done it for years to get you started and then go and have fun in the hills.

In reply to sam_cash:
I think you need to have a good think about where you would like to take any skills learn't to before committing in any one direction.

How to begin, if Scotland ie UK climbing is your goal then taking a couple of days out with an MIC/ local guide / suitably qualified instructor then spending three days straight after on your own working/consilidating those skills would be a good way to start.
Idealy to operate on your own you need to be confident about being able to navigate in Zero viz with howling winds but common sense, weather reports, word of mouth will see you through.

If you need equipment, look at local hire...

A cheap option is look for MIC trainees offering a couple of days instruction.
The Lodge and Brenin are sometimes after 'clients' for MIC assessments. They provide equipment and transport on the days but you will need to cover food and accommerdation. If you contact reception at either of the two centres they may be able to help.
Or just ask on here for a mentor to take you out for a couple of routes, Northern Corries/ Ben Nevis/ Aonach Mor etc.


If Water Ice, I cann't recommend Rujkan area high enough. I was luck to go on a Glenmore trip, five days with George Mc. As mentioned in the posts above loads of good value accomerdation can be had there. Finding an instructor for again a couple of days may not be as easy as in Scotland, but if you ask around, there may be some UK ones working out there or use local instructors. The convenance of access and escape allows for far more controlled days, allowing you to focus on the climbing rather than the mountaineering aspects of the day.

Alpine climbing... find a guide, a 3 - 5 days minmuim.



For Scotland, use a car to travel here, the train is way expensive... again, use this forum, find another two to share and travel as a 4 in one car, allows greater flexability with the weather location etc...

In reply to Slarti B:

Thanks, that's really helpful. We do actually speak French, making the Ice Fall option a real possibility. Course looks decent and cheaper with accommodation included. Which club are you a member of?

@mountain musher

Some good points. Personally, I would like to improve my Alpine abilities. Quite frankly, we want to do some ice climbing as it seems fun and figured there would be some cross-over into mixed.

In reply to sam_cash:

Sam,
I am with Brixton Climbers Club (BCC), a small, informal club based in South London. We may also be having an ice climbing trip in JanFeb, depending on level of interest which might be another option for you. email me via the forum if you want more info.

In reply to sam_cash:
If you want to climb ice falls and you're booking ahead no question book somewhere reliable in Europe!

The chance of getting something done in Scotland in say Feb is quite high although still less reliable than euro ice, the chance of specifically climbing ice falls in Scotland lower again and likely with a lot more walking and snow plodding for a little ice and even then it might be snow ice / neve.

In reply to sam_cash:

Get your self up to Scotland with your mate & bosh out a few II's or III's & see how it feels.