UKC

Hello everyone. As Christmas approaches our nursery have seen fit to further increase our nursery fees, it is now at a level where we would be better off if my wife gave up her part time job.

So my question is, how much do you pay? Are we, as usual, being shafted by the cost of living in the south east whilst trying to have careers in public service? Or is everyone struggling across the country?

It's impossible to get an idea from the internet as nurseries don't seem to want to advertise that clearly how much they charge.

We pay £64 a day for a two year old, up from £60 a year ago.

In reply to XXXX:

This article suggests the average is just over £5 per hour for 3-4 year olds.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-32957950

In reply to XXXX:
I try not to think about it. Certainly a comprable price at our nursery.

In reply to XXXX:

My wife works for the NHS. Ours went to the nursery at the hospital. It's open to non-NHS staff children too. Cost was slightly below £40 for the day (8am - 5pm) but this was with a staff discount. Don't know the non-discounted rate.

In reply to XXXX:

Used to pay around a grand a month, can't remember the exact hours etc, but that was with 15 free hours a week, I think our times were 08.30 - 16.00 4 days a week.

Now in Norway and paying around 240 a month. That's for 5 days a week from 07.00 to 16.30, lunch and snacks included. . .

In reply to XXXX:

My friend in Richmond Upon Thames calculated that his nursery fees were greater than the cost of sending his children to Eton. Not that he intended to do so in due course you understand. And had he wished so, presumably he would have spent all his money on childcare before they reached the age of 11 at that rate anyway!!

In reply to XXXX:

£56 a day in SW Manchester (but it is one of the most expensive around - NHS Hospital nursery with no staff discount available, it is very conveniently located though)

In reply to XXXX:

I live in the south east and pay more than £64 a day for my two year old. I was paying for two of them, but son is now at school thank goodness!

I'm trying not to think about it too much, just hang on and in a couple of years it will all be over. Put it another way, the increase in disposable income will soften the emotional blow of little ones growing up so fast!

In reply to XXXX:

when in nursery it wass 40 quid a day (leek.staffs)

In reply to XXXX:

Interesting responses so far. Imagine what a boost the economy would get if all those parents had affordable childcare and could afford to buy luxuries like food and heating.

In reply to XXXX:

We have three children and a (part time, non live in ) nanny has proven to be much cheaper than nursery. Although you don't get any government contribution the overall cost fell from £2400 to £750 per month.

In reply to XXXX:

£38 per day here in county durham, and some money back from from the child care scheme through my wife's work.

In reply to Nordie_matt:



Pretty much exactly the same, we paid around £900 a month for 2 kids on a 3 day week, in north Yorks.

In Sweden it was(kids now school age 6,8) capped at around £200 as both of us were working, if we were low earners it would have been even less, that includes all meals, as all school food is free for all ages, all incomes.

I've never understood in the UK where the money goes, as nursery staff aren't exactly high earners.

In reply to summo:

Quite. Our nursery says the national living wage rise means they need to put fees up. I wouldn't mind if the money was going to the staff, but it's not.

There seems to be a reluctance to cut costs before raising fees.

In reply to XXXX:


I think we may have an answer!


That's what we did, it was much better for all involved.

In reply to XXXX:

The only real hidden killer cost could be insurance, as it was hard to see where the money went. We liked our UK nursery, the staff were great, but it was obscenely expensive.

In reply to XXXX:

move to Sheffield 3.5 per hour for child minder

I think maybe 42 quid for 8 till 6 at nursery

In reply to XXXX:

My nursery is £49.50 a day but they offer a 10% discount to a local big employer (who my hubby works for). That includes 3 meals and fresh fruit for snacks.

It's always worth doing a childcare voucher scheme if you can, as the vouchers are deducted before tax.

In reply to XXXX:

Our old neighbours were facing a bill of £1600-ish per month for 2 kids, aged about 3 and 1, for 3 days a week. They've now moved back up to Scotland, where they have family help.

Our childcare costs nothing We're fortunate that both sets of grandparents are mostly retired and live very locally and my wife only works 3 days a week. The Grandmas take her to toddler groups at the local library and so on and they're not the only grandparents there.

I'm stockpiling childcare vouchers through work - I'd like her to do a start a proper day at a nursery next year, to get a bit more interaction with other kids.

In reply to XXXX:
About £42/ day based on 3 days a week. With childcare vouchers we can offset a small amount against tax. Works out at equivalent to £35. Also for a 2 year old.

£60+ seems expensive. I've started looking at private prep-schools and one of the closer schools takes in to pre-prep at 2 with a rate of £4.80/hour. That's a school charging £30k for day pupils at sixth form,so not cheap, and £4.80 and hour includes a lot of activities. That's before any subsidy for free hours.

I think the UK has more stringent requirements on carer-to-child ratios than almost any other country. When the government proposed relaxing the ratios to ease costs, there was a chorus of protest (against 'putting kids at risk') and they dropped the idea, if I recall correctly.

In reply to thomm:


No hard and fast rules in Sweden, but the norm is between 5 & 7:1. Which would tie in with what I've seen at our old nursery here and now in School. The difference here is 99% nurseries are state run, not for profit. They are often tied to a school so they have economies of scale in terms of using a proper kitchen and canteen for meal times, plus the use of shared facilities, like gym halls, specialist classrooms, sports fields etc..

Another side spin off is that there is no big leap of starting school, it's all progressive on different parts of the same site. Our kids are within the same set up, from aged 2 to 16yrs... so there is no trauma of going up to the 'big' school etc.. They also tend to mix more across the age ranges outside.

To have a monthly cap of £200ish, it is of course subsidised by the state. But the thinking is if parents get back to work without a big career gap, then they won't damage their career, lose skills, impact employers etc.. but also they remain employed and keep putting taxes back into the system long after the kids have started at school. Those who don't work, only get 15hrs nursery care a week and can't pick their hours, they have to fit into the free time around those parents who are working.

In reply to XXXX:


Imagine if people factored in all the costs before deciding to pop out sprogs the planet doens't need to justify their existence.

In reply to thomm:

the ratios depend in age for 3 yo's it's 1 to 8.
2-3 less and 1 to 2 it's 1 to 3 or 1 to 2.

this may seem generous to those that have never looked after small. children. it doesn't to me after 4 years of childcare (now 4 and 2).

there is lots of evidence that if a. child is behind peer group early it's very hard to catch up.

In reply to alasdair19:
Yes, not necessarily saying the ratios should be higher, just that they're one reason why childcare is cheaper in other countries. If the regulations were relaxed and you had budget and premium nurseries offering very different ratios, it may have some benefits but would also be another source of inequality down the line.

In reply to ianstevens:


I'd hide now, if I were you...

In reply

The cost of childcare depends mostly on government policy. In Germany as I understand it parents are supported to stay at home until kids are 2. then of to kindergarten without much flexibility.

In reply to ianstevens:

If only you could go back and tell your mum that, I'm sure everyone would be grateful

In reply to XXXX:

Thanks everyone, (mostly) it seems I'm left with getting a new job and leaving family behind or changing nurseries.

Thanks world.

In reply to XXXX:

So to throw the cat in with the pigeons.

For those of you who chose to have kids did you considered the costs?
Do you think people should really subsidise your choice?

The cost of child care does sound like extortion but this is the big capitalist model with the smaller state encouraged by the the cons. So did you vote for them?
We're you tempted by the offers of subsidised child care? And if so are you happy that the state is pretty much bank rolling the bosses of private companies /nurseries (the minimum wage staff surely aren't seeing the money).

In reply to XXXX:

Would your wife consider giving up work for now and taking on a couple of other kids as a childminder? Free childcare for you and extra money.

In reply to XXXX:

45 per day, 7 - 5:30.

Based in Leeds, hurts the bank balance!

Matty

In reply to XXXX:
Honest question - what % of the cost does the UK government pay? They're heavily subsidised in Scandianavia

In reply to gethin_allen:

Get your own thread.

The state doesn't subsidise my childcare, surprise this may be but children take three years to get to three years old.

Until then, I subsidise every other buggers childcare because the state don't pay enough when they get to three.

So less of the moralising crap on this thread please

In reply to wbo:

No percentage, it is 15 hours 39 weeks a year currently for 3 and 4 year olds. Works out at about 11 hours a week for the year, or one day when your nursery is open ten hours a day, whether you use it or not.

So if you use one day it's 100% or if you use five days it's 20%.

In reply to XXXX:

£4 per hour, or part of an hour. £30 per day in holidays. Half rate for holiday booked in advance, free if chilminder on holiday, full fee if unplanned absence. That's in Notts.

It racks up!!

School days are so short now, when I was a kid it was 8.45 to 3.45.

In reply to XXXX:

Just to cheer you up, childcare costs are a pittance. Scarcely a down payment in the great hubristic scheme of passing on your genes. Just wait till you are helping them thro uni and keeping them in booze and recreational pharmaceuticals for three or four years. And then when they emerge clutching that scroll of paper, which they will likely discover is damned near worthless because everyone else has one too, and just when you think you're finally in the clear they'll tap you up for help with the deposit on a house.

Child care for toddlers? The happiest -and cheapest - days of a parent's life

In reply to XXXX:

£84 per day for two toddlers,,
could you cope with being a house husband?
also, nursery does stuff with them that i would never think of doing, its a good environment i think, so unless we pay much more than we earn thats where they'll go

In reply to gethin_allen:


I worked for 20 years before having kids, I think I've paid for them thanks very much! Even now we pay a fortune in tax, so I think it's a fair deal. Plus they'll be working and paying tax someday too, perhaps even indirectly funding your healthcare etc.. when you are old. What goes around comes around.

In reply to XXXX:





Well you get tax relief on it, so your tax burden for non-child services is less than an equivalent childless person. And presumably you'll have the free hours at 3 (or 2 depending on your circumstances).

On the other hand, the childless couples are the selfish ones, taking all their money and relying on other people's kids to support them in old age.

You can moralise both ways. At the end of the day, society needs children and children should't be disadvantaged by their parents financial situation. I do think all childcare should be tax deductible.

In reply to wbo:


Yes, but you pay 32% of all wages in tax, tax threshold is only around £1800, plus a few other single percentage taxes on top of that. Income of over £50k ish, you pay 'another' 15-40% on top again (a percentage of the remainder from the first cut). On top of this, whatever you pay in income tax, the employer also has to match. Then unemployment benefit is actually an insurance policy where you pay a % of your wage, in return for 9mths income should you lose your job. So I'd say people are indirectly funding it, and hospitals, infrastructure and other things, but it shows in the general condition of things. Nurseries etc are generally big, clean, spacious and with great facilities.

No such thing as a free lunch, or childcare.

In reply to XXXX:

You can save about £100/200 per month (on a teacher's wage anyway) by using one of the childcare voucher schemes. The value of your vouchers far exceeds the amount that is taken from your wages.
Childminder is much cheaper than nursery. 3 kids, 1 in school; £700 per month. Now 2 in school; £500 per month.

In reply to summo:
I don'r want to seem rude, but is that referring to Sweden? I'm very aware there's no such thing as a free lunch as I'm well into 48% tax territory but my point is that barnehage/nursery places are heavily subsidised by the government (actually the kommune to governemt regs) as a point of policy to keep them deliberately affordable.

I simply wasn't aware of the level of support in the UK now.

I note also that there was posting earlier as to where do the money goes? The normal I guess - building , furniteure, equipment, bills, facilities, staff and so on. I wonder if a 3 year old is cheaper or more expensive than the standard office worker to support?

In reply to XXXX:


Fair enough, it is a bit of a hijack.


I don't quite understand why this is a relevant.


not those who haven't got children

In reply to summo:

But so do most other people.

>Plus they'll be working and paying tax someday too
And will they be then having kids and if so the cycle begins again.

>perhaps even indirectly funding your healthcare etc.. when you are old.

Fingers crossed I make it there.

The whole dilemma is that the whole system is relying on the ever expanding population and economy which isn't really sustainable.

In reply to wbo:

yes.


kids are probably more expensive, but it's a different set up. Adults in a work place produce, but even small nurseries in the UK must have tens of thousands in income every month. You only have to kit out a nursery every so often etc.. it can't all be wear & tear from wild kids?

If places like hospitals, unis, can run a in-house nursery at often half the price when they manage them at cost, then clearly somebody is making a big margin. Perhaps nurseries need taking under the wing of schools, proper buildings, play fields, gyms etc... no some of the dingy places you see squeezed into inner city basements etc.. where the kids have no space.

In reply to gethin_allen:


China tried it with one child, it didn't work? Imagine if only people who could truly afford kids at the point they had them were allowed kids. Imagine the demographics in 50 years time. Madness?

The workplace where everyone is over 50 etc... who would do the more physically demanding jobs? The 10% who could really afford kids at the time, aren't going to sent their kids out into the fields to pick the veg that needs pureeing for your soup at the pensioners home lunch time.

I am all for stopping all funding of all IVF types treatments, most countries are over flowing already, we don't really need to assist nature in over populating the world.

In reply to XXXX:

I pay zero as I am very lucky to have family support.

My wife works three days a week and during that time my mother looks after the little one during two days (she is a kept woman and currently raising my teenage brothers) and my wife's mother looks after her the other day. She recently went down to 4 days a week specifically to do this.

This thread has horrified me at the costs involved in childcare and I have never been more thankful for the supporting family unit we have.

In reply to XXXX:


Your knowledge of anatomy, particularly of the human reproductive system, seems to be a little confused!

In reply to alasdair19:
In Germany you get 14 months of parental leave which can be split flexibly between the parents and after this time you can send your child to kindergarten at a cost of around 50 euros a month. Dropping off and picking up flexibly. Hard to beat really.

In reply to XXXX:

Look at Ofsted for childcare fees- they set guideline amounts but if your child is three upwards you should get government funding which amounts to £3 per hour.

In reply to XXXX:


Ouch.

In reply to XXXX:



Is it as stark a choice as that? You couldn't work a few evenings a week or something for a while?

In reply To
All who think that the cost is important££££££££££££££££££££££££££££

I have not read all reply's to the OP fully, but in reply to a lot of the respondents, I would like to ask.
Why, do you have children, and then delegate the reasonability of the care to another. Honestly! It's not long before they grow up, and given that in the UK the mainstream normal is to educate in school, is it to much to ask that you put your life part on hold? until such time that work can be found to fit around the needs of children, instead of fitting your children around your careers?
If a child of 4 has spent just one year in nursery care.. a, quarter of its life is lost to you.
So if your planning a family, I hope you are able to be a family, and to they who say what crap, thats fine we have our views, but one thing before you start to tell me about the under 5's have a read up on what are the most formative years. And remember, one month in the life of a 2 year old is like 10 months at 20 years.

In reply to Name Changed 34:
Because working pays the mortgage, which keeps a roof over the child's head, feeds and clothes them too. I appreciate your sentiment but you can't pay bills with love.

If people took 5 years out of the employment market, they would have no career to go back to.

Besides our nursery was great, spacious clean, fun and safe. Outside regardless of the weather twice a day, trips out to the forest and lake at least once a week, regular bus trips to various museums, theatres, shows... Great healthy food.. I could go on. Then play dates with all their friends, or meeting them after school for football, orienteering, skating, ski, horse riding, gym... Training and clubs.

Compared to our previous experience of nurseries it transformed our kids in terms of their communication skills, confidence, problem solving and many other attributes that just would not develop by being smothered by mum and dad. Although the 6 yr old does not start school until next year, so she has just 4 days a week nursery/pre school. Tomorrow she is off at home, but wants to have a play date with some friends, as they've already planned it at nursery today.

Sometimes the best thing you can do for your kids is not smother them at home, they will need to meet the world of education and eventually the real world sooner or later, keeping them at hone is poor preparation.

In reply to Name Changed 34:

Presumably you can afford a house on one salary where you live? We both have to work to afford somewhere to live. If we could, we'd both give up work tomorrow.

In reply to summo:

yes see that and food at table

I appreciate your sentiment but you can't pay bills with love.
thank you



I understand, but Should we put our self first, even if it is to mean starting at the bottom; again.



No reason why not, You will have picked the best you could find, and good nursery can develop the child, some are not so good. and some parents place children into thees damaging environments,, and yes we could speculate the parent who gives no thorough to placement is probably not going to make a good job even if the child is at home.

I would not use the word smothered, but stifled, but much of a munches, TV play a part in this to smothered/ stifled



, they will need to meet the world of education and eventually,
the real world sooner or later, keeping them at hone is poor preparation.

we differ on this, they met the world of education 1 second after birth, and I am not sold on the formal education need, however
if going into formal education yes prepare for it and the institutions have got better at this bringing children slowly in at the onset
Is keeping them at home bad ? depends on how the keeper is committed

I;m not ranting against nursery per say, it was that the posts seemed one sided, but that was the premise of the Q.

In reply to XXXX:
To play with what you say, and I dont know your particulars, but

yes I can, and to add to it. You can too, so your family has the option of moving and doing the same.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


For a while, having compared the fortunate background my brothers and I come from with those who've had less help, I pretty much decided children/offspring become independent sooner the less help they have, but looking at how wages and house prices compare, it could be the only way many people can become more secure in their situations, to have help from the bank of mum & dad. Hope things improve by the time the OP's child is thinking about Uni and finding a home.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:


guess your have not got marred then
guess yours [children] have not got marred then

In reply to Name Changed 34:


I've been 'marred' countless times but married only twice and helped to put two of my own kids and one step child thro uni so. believe me, I know what it costs.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:

Spellings not a strong point [that nursery you know] its also directly linked to the % of the drink,
It should have read;

guess yours [children] have not got marred then

In reply to Timmd:


I agree with the basic principle of what you say, but when it's your kids........ I wanted them to get the maximum benefit/enjoyment out of uni so gave all of them got some financial help, although interestingly, each in their different days. My son was very independent and only came to me after he was burgled and left with more or less his clothes and not much else. But he ended up dropping out, partly because he got fed up of being permanently broke. He had worked before uni and was perhaps too used to have cash in his pocket. In the light of his experience his younger sister accepted, at my insistence, an allowance and stayed the course. Because of the wierd way it was worked out, my step daughter get a full grant since my salary was not taken into account as she was not my daugther and her dad's was not because he had left. As a result she was relatively well off - for a student - and got more ad hoc support for one-offs as needed.

Ironically the drop out, who I'd worried about most, did best of the three and was almost instantly minted. He's very sharp and soon had a Porsche and his own house and was taking weekends in New York. His sister became a teacher and did have help with the deposit. My step-daughter flitted happily round Paris and San Francisco for ten years or so before settling in Edinburgh and doing very nicely thank you.

In reply to Name Changed 34:





All three did but, thankfully, no kids to call me grandad and make me feel even older than I already do

In reply to Wiley Coyote:
I can understand how much parents would want to help when it's their own children, it was just a trend I'd noticed in looking at my own good fortune and other people I know, so I've turned it into a kick up the behind in not letting myself pause or potter, hopefully successfully.

In reply to XXXX:

Registered council Childminders in our area get £4 an hour.

Better to use per hour when comparing childminder rates and Nurserys though, childminders are usually a bit more flexible on the hours as well.

In reply to Name Changed 34:
I would disagree with your rational, kids, or rather infants and toddlers who spend all their day at home will either remain stagnant or become adults very quickly as it's the only world they know.

Infants that mix in small groups of similar ages play creative games and learn new skills that us as adults could never imagine. We are too set in our thinking. In short they get to be kids.

Do you have kids?, have you ever heard them talking when they don't think an adult is listening, seen them play, or spoken to nursery staff... Kids are very different when in groups of equals.

No, I didn't get to pick the best nursery, it's the only one in a 15mile radius.

In reply to summo:


I would disagree too, if that was the sentiment behind what I was saying. For the avoidance of doubt, I was not, and do not advocate that children should be in the home all day, the point is that there are alternatives to placing a child into nursery, and by doing so delegating the parental responsibility for that time. One alternative is [at home] but not just sitting there with no outings and no stimulus, that would be as bad as a bad nursery!

Furthermore your observations on the interaction of children, can be used to show that nursery [good ones] [the few] have a part to play in the development of a child.

The gripe is the dumping of children without proper evaluation of the effect on the child so as to further the career of the parents.......................... Parents who fail to understand, a the career that they now have is the bring up of for fulfilled children to fulfilled adults. b Do not understand how quickly damage can be done AND how quickly children grow. as I have said one turm is a large % of a child's life at this age.

In reply to Name Changed 34:

I would agree that some parents have a dump and run mentality. This applies to school and nurseries. Unlike driving etc.. there are no tests prior to being a parent!!

But, I don't think the various get together groups for home schooled kids are sufficient in giving a child enough interaction among equals.

In reply to summo:

Which may be a good thing, sometimes some of the weirdest seeming people can end up with well adjusted children, and the reverse, I'm not sure how well one can predict parenting abilities.

In reply to summo:

there is plentiful evidence that home schooled kids do fine

In reply to alasdair19:

Some do, some don't. Just like ones at school.

In reply to XXXX:

Our big one has just started school and our small one is 2.5. Nursery costs about £50 per child per day, based in Brizzle.

If we could have afforded it, then having one parent not work would have made life immeasurably more pleasant and less stressful. Sadly we couldn't and summo's point up thread about re-entering the workplace after a five year break to bring up kids is a good one.

I do cynically wonder about the current received wisdom that both parents should be working - we've created a huge industry for childcare where perhaps we don't really need one. And wouldn't everyone be a little happier if one parent could stay at home and look after the wee ones rather than, as in my my experience, have everyone constantly turning ever tighter circles so we can all 'be productive'. Tired kids, tired parents, childhoods flashing by.

And welcome to name changed 34, I've not seen you before.

Sorry for waffling, am on the right end of emergency wine and beer after a 12 hour day trying to cram my five+ day a week job in to my part time hours.

In reply to summo:


Some of those prices though. If you had 3 children at £60 a day. That's 46k a year. That's certainly way above the average earnings in this country. For a lot of couples I imagine this means that one stays at home really.

In reply to Wiley Coyote:



Well done!

We're just starting on this process and it's pretty worrying putting a new born with strangers. I think we're going to break the bank and get a short term nanny. We only need 2 months cover and here we have to commit to get in. The problem is the nanny will be about half my wage..

In reply to alasdair19:


I don't doubt they do fine in measurable stuff, but I think there is value in having friends who you see nearly everyday, play with, grow up together etc.. through more than a decade. It can't be tested or measured though.

It is fair to say that most of the home schooled kids we know were at home due to their parents needs and insecurities, not specific child, budget or education related problems.

In reply to summo:

my experience of my home schooling friends is the reverse. she's is probably the most solid person I know. she's a few years ahead in the parenting game so I've learnt a he'll of a lot from her.

they see other home schoolers very regularly seems like only about one day a week is family time.

parenting is a tough job and peoples natural ability/inclination varies. we've been in the very fortunate position of being able to make choices about how we share the work (and for me that's the best way to think about it). I have huge sympathy for those who have very limited choice.

one of labours achievement was to focus ore help on previous school kids we should so more but it's tricky and expensive