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What do people think of this? It's from a professional / paid-for company in Belgium. It popped up on my Facebook feed from a family friend interested in getting their kids into climbing:
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/8025/wWBj08.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img908/9857/02UUCp.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img907/3264/mBhBWr.jpg
Cultural differences aside, I won't lie, I personally (from a redundant OAA background) think this is a very dodgy...
Firstly there is no safety rope or bottom breaking on the decent rope. Or helmet - although I've been told they need to bring their own! Don't panic tho - they are incoming xmas presents! There is no prussic... Her hands are too close the the descender. And a figure of eight doesn't have much friction; it would be hard to hold. The more I look at it, the longer this list gets! I've seen loads of novice girls get hair stuck in gear whilst abseiling too. Would be a disaster in this suspected un-releasable set up...
It's a 7yr old... And I'm be inclined to say something, but realise attitudes to safety vary from country-to-country. I've already tactfully mentioned that I think it's dodgy (via a third party) and got the reply, "but he's a professional climber who's won competitions, and you're not."
Together with other photos I've see, it sits uneasily with me. Can I have a UKC reality check (If that's possible here :P) - am I being pedantic?
Post edited at 23:54
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In reply to ERU:
I'm confused. Why would it be any more safe if they were running at a loss?
I'm confused. Why would it be any more safe if they were running at a loss?
Post edited at 23:53
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In reply to ERU:
Looking at the pictures it's a bit difficult to get the context of the photo. If it's advertising a novice abseiling experience, then it doesn't appear to be following best practice at all.
Being a good climber and winning comps is only testament to ones climbing ability, it bears no reflection upon whether or not the individual will be a competent instructor taking into consideration all a aspects of safety, set up, client experience etc.
Looking at the pictures it's a bit difficult to get the context of the photo. If it's advertising a novice abseiling experience, then it doesn't appear to be following best practice at all.
> got the reply, "but he's a professional climber who's won competitions, and you're not."
Being a good climber and winning comps is only testament to ones climbing ability, it bears no reflection upon whether or not the individual will be a competent instructor taking into consideration all a aspects of safety, set up, client experience etc.
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In reply to ERU:
So, am I right in thinking that if the kid let go of the rope they would fall?
Maybe suggest to the parents that if they are set on it, they should hold the rope at the bottom? Seems like an easy way to improve the situation without too much upset.
(It's what a lovely UKC person did to encourage me to do my first sea cliff - whilst Mr Marsbar encouraged me from the top to get on with it :-p. ).
So, am I right in thinking that if the kid let go of the rope they would fall?
Maybe suggest to the parents that if they are set on it, they should hold the rope at the bottom? Seems like an easy way to improve the situation without too much upset.
(It's what a lovely UKC person did to encourage me to do my first sea cliff - whilst Mr Marsbar encouraged me from the top to get on with it :-p. ).
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In reply to ERU:
Not necessarily; it really depends on the rope. I often had to feed the older ropes through figure of eight in order to descend - and the girl in the pictures is significantly lighter than me.
That being said, it's not how it should be done. With no safety rope or prussiks in place, someone should be holding the rope at the bottom.
> And a figure of eight doesn't have much friction; it would be hard to hold.
Not necessarily; it really depends on the rope. I often had to feed the older ropes through figure of eight in order to descend - and the girl in the pictures is significantly lighter than me.
That being said, it's not how it should be done. With no safety rope or prussiks in place, someone should be holding the rope at the bottom.
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In reply to Removed UserZebdi:
How can you tell they aren't ?
> That being said, it's not how it should be done. With no safety rope or prussiks in place, someone should be holding the rope at the bottom.
How can you tell they aren't ?
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In reply to ERU:
Looks well dodgy. I appreciate that different cultures have different approaches to H&S but having young un-helmeted heads a non backed-up ab is deeply counter-intuitive to me. I would raise the issue with the company or go elsewhere.
Looks well dodgy. I appreciate that different cultures have different approaches to H&S but having young un-helmeted heads a non backed-up ab is deeply counter-intuitive to me. I would raise the issue with the company or go elsewhere.
In reply to ERU:
I wouldn't want anyone I know going with a company that doesn't provide helmets as standard really. Just seems a bit unprofessional.
I would never, ever let a novice rap without a back up, either a safety line or someone trailing the rope at the bottom (maybe this was happening in these phots, couldn't tell).
I wouldn't want anyone I know going with a company that doesn't provide helmets as standard really. Just seems a bit unprofessional.
I would never, ever let a novice rap without a back up, either a safety line or someone trailing the rope at the bottom (maybe this was happening in these phots, couldn't tell).
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In reply to ERU:
I don't know anything at all about the equivalent Belgian qualifications, but if you demonstrated that practice in a UK assessment for an MTA award I reckon you'd be failed on at least three separate accounts (lack of back-up, long hair and no releasability, lack of helmet). If I saw someone doing this on a UK crag I'd find it very hard not to have a quiet word with the instructor.
And I can't imagine that their award system is THAT different to ours, which leads me to question whether they really are qualified at all?
I don't know anything at all about the equivalent Belgian qualifications, but if you demonstrated that practice in a UK assessment for an MTA award I reckon you'd be failed on at least three separate accounts (lack of back-up, long hair and no releasability, lack of helmet). If I saw someone doing this on a UK crag I'd find it very hard not to have a quiet word with the instructor.
And I can't imagine that their award system is THAT different to ours, which leads me to question whether they really are qualified at all?
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In reply to Doug:
What is probably being suggested is that the hair should be tied up so it couldn't accidentally get caught in the figure-of-8.
What is probably being suggested is that the hair should be tied up so it couldn't accidentally get caught in the figure-of-8.
In reply to The New NickB:
Back in the day, I remember asking a friend about the dreaded Luna Bong abseil. Her reply? "Well I managed to get my hair caught in the figure of eight; so that took my mind off things!"
Mick
Back in the day, I remember asking a friend about the dreaded Luna Bong abseil. Her reply? "Well I managed to get my hair caught in the figure of eight; so that took my mind off things!"
Mick
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In reply to Mick Ward:
Memories of getting my hair caught in a figure of eight despite being tied up in a ponytail. Couldn't happen now
Memories of getting my hair caught in a figure of eight despite being tied up in a ponytail. Couldn't happen now
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In reply to ERU:
Reality check.
The hair appears to be tied back?
I see no evidence to suggest that the abseil isn't releasable or that there isn't someone safeguarding the bottom of the rope.
If the abseiler of experienced and there is no loose rock, the lack of helmet may not be a major issue.
It's far from being an ideal publicity photo and not the way I'd choose to operate but there appears to be little firm evidence of dangerous practices. I'd think carefully before being too critical.
Reality check.
The hair appears to be tied back?
I see no evidence to suggest that the abseil isn't releasable or that there isn't someone safeguarding the bottom of the rope.
If the abseiler of experienced and there is no loose rock, the lack of helmet may not be a major issue.
It's far from being an ideal publicity photo and not the way I'd choose to operate but there appears to be little firm evidence of dangerous practices. I'd think carefully before being too critical.
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In reply to ERU:
I don't think you understand the difference between "making a profit" (a wholly wholesome pursuit, without which the World would not turn) and "profiteering" (taking the p**s, possibly illegally!)
I don't think you understand the difference between "making a profit" (a wholly wholesome pursuit, without which the World would not turn) and "profiteering" (taking the p**s, possibly illegally!)
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> I see no evidence to suggest that the abseil isn't releasable or that there isn't someone safeguarding the bottom of the rope.
I agree it is difficult to see clearly, but there appears to be no safety line attached. If there is no safety line, then in the event of an entrapment (finger, hair etc) then the client would have to be lowered to the ground. This is only possible if the ab rope is long enough, and releasable. In the case that the rope was releasable the entrapment issue still wouldn't be rectified until the client was on the ground, potential for an un-needed prolonged period of pain.
In regards to safe guarding from the floor, I agree that it is difficult to tell whether this is occurring. If it is not then the apparent lack of a safety line could be disastrous if the client was rendered unable to control their descent for any reason.
But once again, context is everything, and something we cannot get from the photographs.
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In reply to Nordie_matt:
Surely the main thing that we cannot see from a photo is the level of experience of the abseiler?
Without that information then any opinions on the safety systems that should be in place are merely guesses.
> I agree it is difficult to see clearly, but there appears to be no safety line attached. If there is no safety line, then in the event of an entrapment (finger, hair etc) then the client would have to be lowered to the ground. This is only possible if the ab rope is long enough, and releasable. In the case that the rope was releasable the entrapment issue still wouldn't be rectified until the client was on the ground, potential for an un-needed prolonged period of pain.
> In regards to safe guarding from the floor, I agree that it is difficult to tell whether this is occurring. If it is not then the apparent lack of a safety line could be disastrous if the client was rendered unable to control their descent for any reason.
> But once again, context is everything, and something we cannot get from the photographs.
Surely the main thing that we cannot see from a photo is the level of experience of the abseiler?
Without that information then any opinions on the safety systems that should be in place are merely guesses.
In reply to Nordie_matt:
Very true. I wondered if perhaps the participant was an experienced and confident abseiler (they do start them young over there) who the responsible adult had deemed was a peer-participant and didn't require back-up?
But I then concluded that even if this was a wee climbing monster with stacks of experience, her age (defo under 10, possibly only 7?) would still demand a greater duty of care regardless of whether it was a peer or profit situation. This would mean a helmet and a safety rope even if she resented it. Remember Tito Traversi?
> context is everything, and something we cannot get from the photographs.
Very true. I wondered if perhaps the participant was an experienced and confident abseiler (they do start them young over there) who the responsible adult had deemed was a peer-participant and didn't require back-up?
But I then concluded that even if this was a wee climbing monster with stacks of experience, her age (defo under 10, possibly only 7?) would still demand a greater duty of care regardless of whether it was a peer or profit situation. This would mean a helmet and a safety rope even if she resented it. Remember Tito Traversi?
Post edited at 12:00
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In reply to timjones:
True, but by posting the photo in the public domain, and in an advertisement then the company have left themselves open to critique and appraisal of the methods they are using.
Regardless of context of situation (experience, rock quality etc.) a commercial image should portray best practice, and be unambiguous.
I have used the same safety set up with groups of scouts right through to the logistics corp from the Danish Army (albeit in differing settings).
Personal practice (abbing into a route, abbing off multi pitch etc.) is very different to commercial practice. Duty of care dictates what I should do, and in an advertisement feature I would seek to illustrate best practice.
True, but by posting the photo in the public domain, and in an advertisement then the company have left themselves open to critique and appraisal of the methods they are using.
Regardless of context of situation (experience, rock quality etc.) a commercial image should portray best practice, and be unambiguous.
I have used the same safety set up with groups of scouts right through to the logistics corp from the Danish Army (albeit in differing settings).
Personal practice (abbing into a route, abbing off multi pitch etc.) is very different to commercial practice. Duty of care dictates what I should do, and in an advertisement feature I would seek to illustrate best practice.
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In reply to ERU:
am I being pedantic?
Yes you are, nothing wrong with that !
Ask yourself if "the shit hits the fan" how would I feel then ?
am I being pedantic?
Yes you are, nothing wrong with that !
Ask yourself if "the shit hits the fan" how would I feel then ?
In reply to ERU:
The other problem is that the belay 'biner doesn't have the plastic whatsit in to prevent cross loading, which was developed after accidents started to happen (involving fatalities) when people were using figure of eights and standard 'biners.
Shop them to the relevant people in Belgium.
The other problem is that the belay 'biner doesn't have the plastic whatsit in to prevent cross loading, which was developed after accidents started to happen (involving fatalities) when people were using figure of eights and standard 'biners.
Shop them to the relevant people in Belgium.
Post edited at 13:46
In reply to ERU:
Perhaps a better approach is to find a company close to them that are a bit more up to speed on best practise if you're already getting comments "they're professional climbers"
Maybe point out what differences you would get at a place like PYB (and what the cost would be to "do it properly")
Perhaps a better approach is to find a company close to them that are a bit more up to speed on best practise if you're already getting comments "they're professional climbers"
Maybe point out what differences you would get at a place like PYB (and what the cost would be to "do it properly")
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Looks like a via ferrata lanyard to me.
> I'm trying (and failing) to work out what all the stuff hanging on her harness is.
Looks like a via ferrata lanyard to me.
In reply to ERU:
I suppose the issue of "not enough friction" is less of an issue with a small girl and a stiff, thick rope. As a small adult my belayer used to sometimes have to feed the rope through the belay device to let me down from certain climbing wall top ropes.
I suppose the issue of "not enough friction" is less of an issue with a small girl and a stiff, thick rope. As a small adult my belayer used to sometimes have to feed the rope through the belay device to let me down from certain climbing wall top ropes.
In reply to ceri:
Same here when I was a child being belayed by my Dad, but having had to write a load of policies & procedures recently for a qualification I'm hoping to get which will mean I can lead children outdoors, an organisation like this needs to have all the protocol in place to make sure nothing happens, as much for safety as for avoiding being sued.
Same here when I was a child being belayed by my Dad, but having had to write a load of policies & procedures recently for a qualification I'm hoping to get which will mean I can lead children outdoors, an organisation like this needs to have all the protocol in place to make sure nothing happens, as much for safety as for avoiding being sued.
Post edited at 18:23
In reply to Timmd:
Whilst a cross loaded krab isn't a good thing, a belay master krab is far from a necessity.
I'd be amazed if abseiling on a cross loaded krab has ever caused a failure.
> The other problem is that the belay 'biner doesn't have the plastic whatsit in to prevent cross loading, which was developed after accidents started to happen (involving fatalities) when people were using figure of eights and standard 'biners.
Whilst a cross loaded krab isn't a good thing, a belay master krab is far from a necessity.
I'd be amazed if abseiling on a cross loaded krab has ever caused a failure.
In reply to jezb1:
From memory, with being pretty into climbing at the time, and having not long stopped using a figure of eight to belay with at the wall with my (older) family as a teenager , the Belay Master was developed after a few fatalities when using figure of eights, when used it prevents a figure of eight from levering upon the gate of the crab, as well as helpfully preventing cross loading when using other belay devices too. It's not that cross loading will cause a crab to break while abseiling, it's the cross loading whatsit stops a figure of eight from moving into a certain position where it can break a crab.
Edit: Or rather lever a gate open, though I dare say the crab may be unusable (safely) after this has happened to it.
From memory, with being pretty into climbing at the time, and having not long stopped using a figure of eight to belay with at the wall with my (older) family as a teenager , the Belay Master was developed after a few fatalities when using figure of eights, when used it prevents a figure of eight from levering upon the gate of the crab, as well as helpfully preventing cross loading when using other belay devices too. It's not that cross loading will cause a crab to break while abseiling, it's the cross loading whatsit stops a figure of eight from moving into a certain position where it can break a crab.
Edit: Or rather lever a gate open, though I dare say the crab may be unusable (safely) after this has happened to it.
Post edited at 20:50
In reply to ERU: I believe that rather than breaking the biner the accidents were the result of the eight forcing the karabiner open and jumping out
In reply to wbo:
I think you're right, lack of sleep and it being a couple of decades have muddled my thinking.
I think you're right, lack of sleep and it being a couple of decades have muddled my thinking.
Post edited at 20:43
In reply to jezb1:
Here's some info from a caving source on figure of eights.
http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/47/uiaa2.pdf
Here's some info from a caving source on figure of eights.
http://caves.org/section/vertical/nh/47/uiaa2.pdf
In reply to jezb1:
With the eight under load and not placed properly in the krab, it can shear the gate off. A couple of incidents (one unfortunately fatal) are described on p5 of this UIAA journal: http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/socs/lumc/uiaa_equipment.pdf
I do agree with you that a belaymaster isn't essential, though.
> I'd be amazed if abseiling on a cross loaded krab has ever caused a failure.
With the eight under load and not placed properly in the krab, it can shear the gate off. A couple of incidents (one unfortunately fatal) are described on p5 of this UIAA journal: http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/socs/lumc/uiaa_equipment.pdf
I do agree with you that a belaymaster isn't essential, though.
- No helmet
- No chest harness
- Apparently no backups (or at least a self locking device)
Given the young age of the customer I think this is very dodgy. Even if unlikely, she could lay back, flip upside down and lose control of the rope. Hard to believe this is a professional with certified safety competences, I'd rather say a dad taking out his kids.
- No chest harness
- Apparently no backups (or at least a self locking device)
Given the young age of the customer I think this is very dodgy. Even if unlikely, she could lay back, flip upside down and lose control of the rope. Hard to believe this is a professional with certified safety competences, I'd rather say a dad taking out his kids.
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In reply to andyjohnson0:
It is if you want to stop the figure of eight from moving into the position where it can cause an accident?
Edit: Oh, you mean for other belay/abseil devices.
> I do agree with you that a belaymaster isn't essential, though.
It is if you want to stop the figure of eight from moving into the position where it can cause an accident?
Edit: Oh, you mean for other belay/abseil devices.
Post edited at 20:49
In reply to andyjohnson0:
Well located, I've just spent the last hour trying to find some reportage on that. I have a feeling that the bridge fatality may have been on the Menai bridge to Anglesey, and obviously would have been avoided with a safety rope. Changed days.
Well located, I've just spent the last hour trying to find some reportage on that. I have a feeling that the bridge fatality may have been on the Menai bridge to Anglesey, and obviously would have been avoided with a safety rope. Changed days.
In reply to Timmd:
Certainly not essential for other devices. And not strictly essential for a figure of eight either, as long as you are aware of the risk and are careful. For a child or novice, though, I'd say a belaymaster is very strongly advised.
> It is if you want to stop the figure of eight from moving into the position where it can cause an accident?
> Edit: Oh, you mean for other belay/abseil devices.
Certainly not essential for other devices. And not strictly essential for a figure of eight either, as long as you are aware of the risk and are careful. For a child or novice, though, I'd say a belaymaster is very strongly advised.
Post edited at 21:57
In reply to ERU:
I'd say you're right to question them,when I looked at the photos I thought to myself would I be happy to send my daughter here,obviously the answer is no.
I'd say you're right to question them,when I looked at the photos I thought to myself would I be happy to send my daughter here,obviously the answer is no.
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In reply to Martin Bennett:
Oh, I do. I also know what word play is: -)
> I don't think you understand the difference between "making a profit" (a wholly wholesome pursuit, without which the World would not turn) and "profiteering" (taking the p**s, possibly illegally!)
Oh, I do. I also know what word play is: -)
In reply to timjones:
Well, picture 1 seems to show the bottom of the crag and there's no-one on the bottom of the rope. So that means that, regardless of how experienced this child is, if she lets go for any reason, she's going to deck. I'm not sure that can be justified as meeting your duty of care even if she is the under-nines world abseiling champion.
As regards releasability - sure, the rope she's on may well be on a tied-off Italian and have enough slack to get to the bottom. But if she whips her head around for any reason (not at all improbable) then the fact that she has a long pony-tail and the Fo8 is set right at headheight means there's a real chance it could get caught up. If that happens, and there is no secondary rope, then she is going to have to be lowered with her hair dragging into the device. AND still not let go during the experience.
Now the angle of photos 2 and 3 do suggest there is a second ab rope present, so that could be why they've not employed a second rope to the child, thinking that if she does get into trouble the photographer will just swing over and rescue her. But as I've just said, if her hair gets into that Fo8 she is going to have to hang on until rescued when all her instincts will be telling her to let go to try to free her hair. I'm not liking that scenario.
The lack of helmet - meh, maybe it's the most stable crag in the world and rockfall is unimaginable. But I certainly wouldn't let a paying client go down without one.
I guess it's possible that they've used a steel karabiner to attach the Fo8 - that's what I do to mitigate the cross-loading issue. Impossible to tell. But my money is on not...
On a slight tangent - how effective is pulling the ab rope from below at locking the Fo8? I know it's very effective with a regular plate but I've never used it with the eight (because I'd always have the second rope in place). My instinct says it'd be a little harder to get it to lock as it's a wider device, but I might be wrong?
> Surely the main thing that we cannot see from a photo is the level of experience of the abseiler?
> Without that information then any opinions on the safety systems that should be in place are merely guesses.
> Without that information then any opinions on the safety systems that should be in place are merely guesses.
Well, picture 1 seems to show the bottom of the crag and there's no-one on the bottom of the rope. So that means that, regardless of how experienced this child is, if she lets go for any reason, she's going to deck. I'm not sure that can be justified as meeting your duty of care even if she is the under-nines world abseiling champion.
As regards releasability - sure, the rope she's on may well be on a tied-off Italian and have enough slack to get to the bottom. But if she whips her head around for any reason (not at all improbable) then the fact that she has a long pony-tail and the Fo8 is set right at headheight means there's a real chance it could get caught up. If that happens, and there is no secondary rope, then she is going to have to be lowered with her hair dragging into the device. AND still not let go during the experience.
Now the angle of photos 2 and 3 do suggest there is a second ab rope present, so that could be why they've not employed a second rope to the child, thinking that if she does get into trouble the photographer will just swing over and rescue her. But as I've just said, if her hair gets into that Fo8 she is going to have to hang on until rescued when all her instincts will be telling her to let go to try to free her hair. I'm not liking that scenario.
The lack of helmet - meh, maybe it's the most stable crag in the world and rockfall is unimaginable. But I certainly wouldn't let a paying client go down without one.
I guess it's possible that they've used a steel karabiner to attach the Fo8 - that's what I do to mitigate the cross-loading issue. Impossible to tell. But my money is on not...
On a slight tangent - how effective is pulling the ab rope from below at locking the Fo8? I know it's very effective with a regular plate but I've never used it with the eight (because I'd always have the second rope in place). My instinct says it'd be a little harder to get it to lock as it's a wider device, but I might be wrong?
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
Very.
> On a slight tangent - how effective is pulling the ab rope from below at locking the Fo8?
Very.
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In reply to Jamie Wakeham:
The problem in my mind is that whilst we wouldn't operate novice abseiling for novices in the way shown in the photgraphs we don't really know what we are looking at in the photos. Why didn't we get a link to the page that they were copied from rather than a copy and paste job into imageshack? What makes you assume that the girl in the pictures is under nine?
It seems unjust to pile in with so much criticism with such wishy washy information. I'm very concious that whilst I'd never instruct other peoples children in this manner there could easily be a point in the not to distant future when I could take photos of my own daughter that looked very similar to these and have a few experts on UKC take them out of context and pile in with a load of pretty unjustifed criticism.
The problem in my mind is that whilst we wouldn't operate novice abseiling for novices in the way shown in the photgraphs we don't really know what we are looking at in the photos. Why didn't we get a link to the page that they were copied from rather than a copy and paste job into imageshack? What makes you assume that the girl in the pictures is under nine?
It seems unjust to pile in with so much criticism with such wishy washy information. I'm very concious that whilst I'd never instruct other peoples children in this manner there could easily be a point in the not to distant future when I could take photos of my own daughter that looked very similar to these and have a few experts on UKC take them out of context and pile in with a load of pretty unjustifed criticism.
In reply to timjones:
It's not as if we've publicly named and shamed the company - I don't know who they are. I don't know where the pictures come from - we've simply been asked to comment on what we see.
The child looks about eight or nine to me. She could be eleven or twelve but that doesn't really change anything at all. (edit - OP says she's 7).
I'm not sure the facts are wishy-washy - it seems very clear that there is no secondary rope, no prusik back-up and no-one at the bottom. So if she lets go for any reason, she decks. Everything else is pretty secondary to that. About the only context that could mitigate this is that the first picture does not actually show the bottom of the crag, and there really is someone below holding the rope. But I'm pretty sure the rope terminates at that grass. Or I guess there could be a prusik hidden under her arm, but I'm fairly sure there's not.
So, going solely on what I can see, in those three images, it looks patently unsafe. I freely concede I could be wrong, if I have mis-read the pictures, but I don't think I have.
PS Thanks, Jez. I don't expect ever to need it, but it's good to add that fact to the toolbox.
It's not as if we've publicly named and shamed the company - I don't know who they are. I don't know where the pictures come from - we've simply been asked to comment on what we see.
The child looks about eight or nine to me. She could be eleven or twelve but that doesn't really change anything at all. (edit - OP says she's 7).
I'm not sure the facts are wishy-washy - it seems very clear that there is no secondary rope, no prusik back-up and no-one at the bottom. So if she lets go for any reason, she decks. Everything else is pretty secondary to that. About the only context that could mitigate this is that the first picture does not actually show the bottom of the crag, and there really is someone below holding the rope. But I'm pretty sure the rope terminates at that grass. Or I guess there could be a prusik hidden under her arm, but I'm fairly sure there's not.
So, going solely on what I can see, in those three images, it looks patently unsafe. I freely concede I could be wrong, if I have mis-read the pictures, but I don't think I have.
PS Thanks, Jez. I don't expect ever to need it, but it's good to add that fact to the toolbox.
Post edited at 12:20
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In reply to ERU:
I've definitely felt safe doing this in the past, when I often did this sort of thing, and probably would again (although actually I always wear a helmet now, and would knot the rope).
Would I let my children do it? No. All the things mentioned above: chest harness, hair braided not pony tail, knot in rope, back up, etc.
I've definitely felt safe doing this in the past, when I often did this sort of thing, and probably would again (although actually I always wear a helmet now, and would knot the rope).
Would I let my children do it? No. All the things mentioned above: chest harness, hair braided not pony tail, knot in rope, back up, etc.
In reply to andyjohnson0:
I guess it depends on the level of risk one is comfortable with (and where), it's funny, I'd possibly more happily solo than use a figure of eight without a belay master, which some might see as quite irrational. I think for a novice or child I'd say it's essential. Hope the organisation related to the OP are encouraged to change their practices and start having a safety rope and things.
> Certainly not essential for other devices. And not strictly essential for a figure of eight either, as long as you are aware of the risk and are careful. For a child or novice, though, I'd say a belaymaster is very strongly advised.
I guess it depends on the level of risk one is comfortable with (and where), it's funny, I'd possibly more happily solo than use a figure of eight without a belay master, which some might see as quite irrational. I think for a novice or child I'd say it's essential. Hope the organisation related to the OP are encouraged to change their practices and start having a safety rope and things.
Post edited at 12:13
In reply to timjones:
I had same thoughts about helmets. No loose rocks = no helmet. Until one day my partner dropped a quickdraw and it landed on my shoulder from about 30m above me. It wasn't very bad, but left a big bruise and swelled a lot. Next day I had trouble operating the shoulder. I think that if it would have landed on my head it would have knocked me off leaving my partner without belay and myself hanging on anchor unconscious.
> If the abseiler of experienced and there is no loose rock, the lack of helmet may not be a major issue.
I had same thoughts about helmets. No loose rocks = no helmet. Until one day my partner dropped a quickdraw and it landed on my shoulder from about 30m above me. It wasn't very bad, but left a big bruise and swelled a lot. Next day I had trouble operating the shoulder. I think that if it would have landed on my head it would have knocked me off leaving my partner without belay and myself hanging on anchor unconscious.
2
In reply to ERU:
Fair enough, but what makes you think this outfit, as well as being casual in it's approach to safety, is "profiteering"?
> Oh, I do. I also know what word play is: -)
Fair enough, but what makes you think this outfit, as well as being casual in it's approach to safety, is "profiteering"?
In reply to Timmd:
Rare self-destruction of the Fig 8 and carabiner is irrelevant if you have a safety rope (which as everyone in the thread agrees you should for this kind of commercial abseiling).
Is this one of those extremely rarely threads where everyone on UKC pretty much agrees? :P
> I guess it depends on the level of risk one is comfortable with (and where), it's funny, I'd possibly more happily solo than use a figure of eight without a belay master, [...]
Rare self-destruction of the Fig 8 and carabiner is irrelevant if you have a safety rope (which as everyone in the thread agrees you should for this kind of commercial abseiling).
Is this one of those extremely rarely threads where everyone on UKC pretty much agrees? :P
2
In reply to Martin Bennett:
The two can seem to go together fairly often.
Not always of course...
> Fair enough, but what makes you think this outfit, as well as being casual in it's approach to safety, is "profiteering"?
The two can seem to go together fairly often.
Not always of course...
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