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For anyone wanting to head up this way for some climbing in the next few weeks, be aware that the Forth Road Bridge is likely to be shut until the new year.
In reply to NottsRich:
Indeed. Also worth noting that the two Kincardine bridges and their approaches are now bearing the hefty brunt of displaced traffic. If you're heading anywhere further north than Fife, at most times of day you'd be well advised to go via Stirling.
Indeed. Also worth noting that the two Kincardine bridges and their approaches are now bearing the hefty brunt of displaced traffic. If you're heading anywhere further north than Fife, at most times of day you'd be well advised to go via Stirling.
In reply to NottsRich:
My December commutes will be joyful. May be forced to do a few overnighters in the hill van in the work car park!
My December commutes will be joyful. May be forced to do a few overnighters in the hill van in the work car park!
In reply to NottsRich:
Managed by Amey, the guys responsible for the Sheffield tree debacle. If there's a suggestion it might be dangerous, I'd imagine they'll just flatten it to be on the safe side
Managed by Amey, the guys responsible for the Sheffield tree debacle. If there's a suggestion it might be dangerous, I'd imagine they'll just flatten it to be on the safe side
In reply to NottsRich:
For those of us north of the bridge, should keep the hills quieter
That said - it's currently just warm and wet here.
For those of us north of the bridge, should keep the hills quieter
That said - it's currently just warm and wet here.
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In reply to toad: I've heard some guys on Linkedin saying the whole organisation and work standards occurring on that bridge is appalling.
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In reply to James Jackson:
I doubt it, it's only an extra 30 mins to go round via the M9.
Extremely annoying for those of us who live just North of the Bridge though, I can get to work in Edinburgh alright as I use the train, but going anywhere South will be a nightmare and certainly climbing at Ratho is now off the cards until the bridge reopens.
I doubt it, it's only an extra 30 mins to go round via the M9.
Extremely annoying for those of us who live just North of the Bridge though, I can get to work in Edinburgh alright as I use the train, but going anywhere South will be a nightmare and certainly climbing at Ratho is now off the cards until the bridge reopens.
In reply to Elsier:
Yeah, facetious comments aside it is certainly a pain. I expect the Kinkardine route is not going to be fun at rush hour.
Yeah, facetious comments aside it is certainly a pain. I expect the Kinkardine route is not going to be fun at rush hour.
In reply to James Jackson:
I hope that train capacity can be increased. It would probably not be a bad thing to prise people away from their cars. Boat links will also need to be explored.
I hope that train capacity can be increased. It would probably not be a bad thing to prise people away from their cars. Boat links will also need to be explored.
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In reply to Jamie B:
I wouldn't fancy being on the river tonight...or even worse tomorrow, 70mph winds screaming through soon.
I wouldn't fancy being on the river tonight...or even worse tomorrow, 70mph winds screaming through soon.
In reply to Steve Perry:
that would be the new bridge there on about, chinese made, built by eastern europeans and run by americans and spanish. jobs a bag of nails.
that would be the new bridge there on about, chinese made, built by eastern europeans and run by americans and spanish. jobs a bag of nails.
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In reply to Rob Parsons:
having worked on it and seen it first hand i know whats happening on there.
stating the facts that its main contractor is american bridge and another big player is dragados (spanish) .
bulk of the workforce would be czech labourers, lithuianian welders, inspection is by caltrop who employ mostly indian inspectors and the steel was made and fabricated in china is not racist.
having worked on it and seen it first hand i know whats happening on there.
stating the facts that its main contractor is american bridge and another big player is dragados (spanish) .
bulk of the workforce would be czech labourers, lithuianian welders, inspection is by caltrop who employ mostly indian inspectors and the steel was made and fabricated in china is not racist.
Post edited at 11:30
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In reply to davy_boy:
Sure, but you seem to be agreeing with the statement that '... the whole organisation and work standards occurring on that bridge is appalling', when all you've given us is that the job's being managed and implemented by foreigners.
So: do you have any specific information which shows that the 'whole organisation and work standards occurring on that bridge is appalling'? I am genuinely interested, as many others will be.
Sure, but you seem to be agreeing with the statement that '... the whole organisation and work standards occurring on that bridge is appalling', when all you've given us is that the job's being managed and implemented by foreigners.
So: do you have any specific information which shows that the 'whole organisation and work standards occurring on that bridge is appalling'? I am genuinely interested, as many others will be.
Post edited at 11:41
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In reply to Rob Parsons:
labourers becoming welders after half an hour training.
missuse of rigging gear ie alterations of rigging equipment ie cutting apart and welding new section in to widen the clamp.
hanging plywood boards from the structure with rope so the labourer / welders can sit on it rather than using the uk rope access welders who were on site at the time.
tying steelwork to underside of cradle before burining off and shock loading equipment.
moving of second party access equipment by untrained operatives.
inspection being told not to report any defects unless they were over 25mm, standard required anything over 1mm to be reported.
running alimak lifts without the trained operator on board during high winds. thats just some of the the standards i witnessed.
labourers becoming welders after half an hour training.
missuse of rigging gear ie alterations of rigging equipment ie cutting apart and welding new section in to widen the clamp.
hanging plywood boards from the structure with rope so the labourer / welders can sit on it rather than using the uk rope access welders who were on site at the time.
tying steelwork to underside of cradle before burining off and shock loading equipment.
moving of second party access equipment by untrained operatives.
inspection being told not to report any defects unless they were over 25mm, standard required anything over 1mm to be reported.
running alimak lifts without the trained operator on board during high winds. thats just some of the the standards i witnessed.
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In reply to davy_boy:
Serious concerns there. Please report them. If everyone ignores it then nothing ever changes.
Serious concerns there. Please report them. If everyone ignores it then nothing ever changes.
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In reply to marsbar:
its been reported a few times but due to the fact there on a tower in the forth any hse inspection will be known about as soon as they boarded a transfer boat.
its been reported a few times but due to the fact there on a tower in the forth any hse inspection will be known about as soon as they boarded a transfer boat.
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In reply to davy_boy:
Ok, thanks. Not the kind of thing you want to hear.
And ditto what marsbar has said.
Ok, thanks. Not the kind of thing you want to hear.
And ditto what marsbar has said.
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In reply to davy_boy:
Hmmmm..... maybe not intentionally, but you've built a connection between foreign origin and lax standards which helps to reinforce others' prejudices. The worrying H&S shortfall that you subsequently outline is due to bad management, not ethnicity.
I'm quite sure that you're not a racist. But others are, so we should be mindful of what ammo we're handing them.
> bulk of the workforce would be czech labourers, lithuianian welders, inspection is by caltrop who employ mostly indian inspectors and the steel was made and fabricated in china is not racist.
Hmmmm..... maybe not intentionally, but you've built a connection between foreign origin and lax standards which helps to reinforce others' prejudices. The worrying H&S shortfall that you subsequently outline is due to bad management, not ethnicity.
I'm quite sure that you're not a racist. But others are, so we should be mindful of what ammo we're handing them.
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In reply to Jamie B:
i have not built any connection i have simply stated that the majority of the workforce are not uk residents.
im sure there are plenty of skilled men from theses areas however when there is unskilled labour from any country doing local tradesmen out of a job its hard not to get frustrated with the situation.
i have not built any connection i have simply stated that the majority of the workforce are not uk residents.
im sure there are plenty of skilled men from theses areas however when there is unskilled labour from any country doing local tradesmen out of a job its hard not to get frustrated with the situation.
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In reply to marsbar:
Completely agree. Having had bad experiences with foreign takeovers of UK assets in the past, I would like something done about it. Reporting poor working practices and H&S issues with HSE is probably the only way to go.
As for cracks of 25mm getting through an NDT inspection un-reported, rather than reporting everything over 1mm davy_boy implied, is a little ironic concerning the current situation on the other bridge!
> Serious concerns there. Please report them. If everyone ignores it then nothing ever changes.
Completely agree. Having had bad experiences with foreign takeovers of UK assets in the past, I would like something done about it. Reporting poor working practices and H&S issues with HSE is probably the only way to go.
As for cracks of 25mm getting through an NDT inspection un-reported, rather than reporting everything over 1mm davy_boy implied, is a little ironic concerning the current situation on the other bridge!
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In reply to davy_boy:
Take from this what you will:
"About 1200 workers are now employed on the project, which is on schedule despite bad weather and due for completion in December 2016.
Infrastructure Secretary Keith Brown said 75% of those working at the site of the Queensferry Crossing have a home address in Scotland."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-33911664
Take from this what you will:
"About 1200 workers are now employed on the project, which is on schedule despite bad weather and due for completion in December 2016.
Infrastructure Secretary Keith Brown said 75% of those working at the site of the Queensferry Crossing have a home address in Scotland."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-33911664
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In reply to Jack Frost:
Nonsense.
My brother-in-Law (English) has a Swiss home address, it doesn't mean he's Swiss!
Nonsense.
My brother-in-Law (English) has a Swiss home address, it doesn't mean he's Swiss!
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In reply to davy_boy
I don't think the Scots or Irish can get that annoyed around migrant workers when we spent generations building large scale infrastructure projects around world.
Al
> im sure there are plenty of skilled men from theses areas however when there is unskilled labour from any country doing local tradesmen out of a job its hard not to get frustrated with the situation.
I don't think the Scots or Irish can get that annoyed around migrant workers when we spent generations building large scale infrastructure projects around world.
Al
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In reply to Mr Trebus:
I agree with that. However if heath and safety standards are being compromised is not the same issue.
I agree with that. However if heath and safety standards are being compromised is not the same issue.
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In reply to Mr Trebus:
Think u will find that they were not undercutting the locals by working for minimum wage. Exported a lot of engineering knowledge and highly skilled men as well.
Think u will find that they were not undercutting the locals by working for minimum wage. Exported a lot of engineering knowledge and highly skilled men as well.
Post edited at 15:40
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In reply to davy_boy:
Its a sad realism that H & S is much a selling point these days than actual reality on the park. Too much is given on unrealistic paperwork checks that are unachievable unless you have super powers. The worst I have seen by far is the nuclear industry where they do as they please. I mean this country has been run like Springfield nuclear plant in the past while the contractors are crucified for trivial matters blown out of all proportion.
I know one of the tower crane drivers and he was over the moon getting the job being the highest crane in Britain at the time. (Scottish) He didn't comment on anything about H & S issues when we last met but I suppose he's up in his wee bubble away from it all.
Its a sad realism that H & S is much a selling point these days than actual reality on the park. Too much is given on unrealistic paperwork checks that are unachievable unless you have super powers. The worst I have seen by far is the nuclear industry where they do as they please. I mean this country has been run like Springfield nuclear plant in the past while the contractors are crucified for trivial matters blown out of all proportion.
I know one of the tower crane drivers and he was over the moon getting the job being the highest crane in Britain at the time. (Scottish) He didn't comment on anything about H & S issues when we last met but I suppose he's up in his wee bubble away from it all.
In reply to fmck:
To be fair the crane ops and slingers seem a decent bunch.
Problems are else where on that job.
I know what u mean about h&s i normally work offshore and some of the paperwork and procedures are mad.
Pulled up for not having ear plugs in at the same time there's a massive oil slick surrounding the rig etc
To be fair the crane ops and slingers seem a decent bunch.
Problems are else where on that job.
I know what u mean about h&s i normally work offshore and some of the paperwork and procedures are mad.
Pulled up for not having ear plugs in at the same time there's a massive oil slick surrounding the rig etc
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In reply to Jamie B:
Let's not get all PC here Jamie. The FACTS, many enshrined in the the national legislation of the states concerned, are that many of our near neighbours in Europe have a safety regime that falls way way short of what has been the norm in the UK for 40 years. Further afield it rarely gets any better.
The normally highly organised Germans, for instance, have a long established system based on the work of mutual insurance companies. It works well in many situations but there are also many gaps and they can have difficulty operating in the UK statutory environment.
Spain has national implementations of EU Directives but somehow those operating there seem to be able to ignore safety decrees and procedures.
At sea, ship owners put hit squads of Brits and Norwegians onto ships for a period to knock them into shape and then hand them back to cheaper officers from other nations. Many of those Brits and Norwegians will be white and male but some will not. What matters is the cultural and legislative framework where they have grown up and been educated.
This is one of the safest countries in the world to work or travel in. I will sometimes moan about over-playing the H&S card but I hope that I always have the courage to speak up for safety when it counts.
Hundreds of people have died trying to get us across the Forth. This is 2015. One more is too much.
Nemo me impune lacessit.
Let's not get all PC here Jamie. The FACTS, many enshrined in the the national legislation of the states concerned, are that many of our near neighbours in Europe have a safety regime that falls way way short of what has been the norm in the UK for 40 years. Further afield it rarely gets any better.
The normally highly organised Germans, for instance, have a long established system based on the work of mutual insurance companies. It works well in many situations but there are also many gaps and they can have difficulty operating in the UK statutory environment.
Spain has national implementations of EU Directives but somehow those operating there seem to be able to ignore safety decrees and procedures.
At sea, ship owners put hit squads of Brits and Norwegians onto ships for a period to knock them into shape and then hand them back to cheaper officers from other nations. Many of those Brits and Norwegians will be white and male but some will not. What matters is the cultural and legislative framework where they have grown up and been educated.
This is one of the safest countries in the world to work or travel in. I will sometimes moan about over-playing the H&S card but I hope that I always have the courage to speak up for safety when it counts.
Hundreds of people have died trying to get us across the Forth. This is 2015. One more is too much.
Nemo me impune lacessit.
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In reply to NottsRich:
The FRB closure is having substantial knock-on effects around Stirling. Went for an afternoon Ochils raid today and came back along the top road via Glenochil jail - much busier than usual - then when I headed round the eastern bypass at Stirling (4.30pm-ish) it was extremely busy. Traffic was moving OK if fairly slowly on the open-road bits but the roundabouts were a different matter and people were being short-tempered and impatient all over the place. Conversely the Morrisons supermarket just off the eastern bypass was very quiet - looks like people could well be avoiding it, because of the traffic hassle.
And yesterday evening some Stirling chess club colleagues had to go across to Dunfermline for a match. Normally it takes about 40 minutes to get there, but even with some sneaky route-planning it took them 75 minutes and their clocks had been ticking for a while when they arrived (or whatever it is that digital chess clocks do). Overall, it's quite hectic on the roads around here, even though we're 25 miles west of the FRB. Clearly a lot of people are trying to outflank the Kinc/Clacks bridge delays.
The FRB closure is having substantial knock-on effects around Stirling. Went for an afternoon Ochils raid today and came back along the top road via Glenochil jail - much busier than usual - then when I headed round the eastern bypass at Stirling (4.30pm-ish) it was extremely busy. Traffic was moving OK if fairly slowly on the open-road bits but the roundabouts were a different matter and people were being short-tempered and impatient all over the place. Conversely the Morrisons supermarket just off the eastern bypass was very quiet - looks like people could well be avoiding it, because of the traffic hassle.
And yesterday evening some Stirling chess club colleagues had to go across to Dunfermline for a match. Normally it takes about 40 minutes to get there, but even with some sneaky route-planning it took them 75 minutes and their clocks had been ticking for a while when they arrived (or whatever it is that digital chess clocks do). Overall, it's quite hectic on the roads around here, even though we're 25 miles west of the FRB. Clearly a lot of people are trying to outflank the Kinc/Clacks bridge delays.
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In reply to NottsRich:
Has anyone seen any real technical data about this fault and how it affects the performance of the structure?
(Maybe this is too much to ask in a society run by those who weren't listening when they were at school.)
Has anyone seen any real technical data about this fault and how it affects the performance of the structure?
(Maybe this is too much to ask in a society run by those who weren't listening when they were at school.)
In reply to Jim Fraser:
No real technical Data Jim, however I did read yesterday that the crack in question was NOT identified in 2010 as some would make out (Although it is in the same area) - Therefore it hasn't been ignored/handbagged.
Also, the same political parties who happen to be getting a massive hard-on about this were/are still part of FETA.
No real technical Data Jim, however I did read yesterday that the crack in question was NOT identified in 2010 as some would make out (Although it is in the same area) - Therefore it hasn't been ignored/handbagged.
Also, the same political parties who happen to be getting a massive hard-on about this were/are still part of FETA.
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In reply to Jim Fraser:
This is quite a good piece:
http://billharvey.typepad.com/arches/2015/12/bridge-bearings-and-the-forth-...
I also enjoyed the following photo which was taken the other day when the bridge was deliberately loaded with 500 tons as part of the analysis in relation to the current repair:
https://twitter.com/forthroadbridge/status/674543631772979200
This is quite a good piece:
http://billharvey.typepad.com/arches/2015/12/bridge-bearings-and-the-forth-...
I also enjoyed the following photo which was taken the other day when the bridge was deliberately loaded with 500 tons as part of the analysis in relation to the current repair:
https://twitter.com/forthroadbridge/status/674543631772979200
In reply to Rob Parsons:
Nice. Thanks.
"For a successful technology, engineering must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." Quite! That's why I am still poor after 40 years of engineering in a world full of accountants and politicians.
Nice. Thanks.
"For a successful technology, engineering must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." Quite! That's why I am still poor after 40 years of engineering in a world full of accountants and politicians.
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In reply to Rob Parsons: Re the photo of the failed component: the Daily Mirror described it in one early article as a "hairline" crack, despite using that very photo to illustrate the article!!!
Some of the comments under the deflection photos beggar belief.
Some of the comments under the deflection photos beggar belief.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Not much technical data, but there is a bit of detail on the bridge website, along with some videos: https://www.forthroadbridge.org/bridge-closure/videos/
At the bottom of the page is a short presentation by Amey
Not much technical data, but there is a bit of detail on the bridge website, along with some videos: https://www.forthroadbridge.org/bridge-closure/videos/
At the bottom of the page is a short presentation by Amey
In reply to Martin W:
Yes. Maybe the Martians did it in support of ISIS as a conspiracy with western governments and the tooth fairy to cut off Niddrie from supplies of malt whisky before hogmanay. Happens all the time apparently. Certainly it happens all the time in a universe where nobody went to school.
> Some of the comments under the deflection photos beggar belief.
Yes. Maybe the Martians did it in support of ISIS as a conspiracy with western governments and the tooth fairy to cut off Niddrie from supplies of malt whisky before hogmanay. Happens all the time apparently. Certainly it happens all the time in a universe where nobody went to school.
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In reply to Jim Fraser:
Fixed that for you ...
And the full quote actually has reasonable bearing (haha) upon this topic anyway:
"Let us make recommendations to ensure that NASA officials deal in a world of reality in understanding technological weaknesses and imperfections well enough to be actively trying to eliminate them. They must live in reality in comparing the costs and utility of the Shuttle to other methods of entering space. And they must be realistic in making contracts, in estimating costs, and the difficulty of the projects. Only realistic flight schedules should be proposed, schedules that have a reasonable chance of being met. If in this way the government would not support them, then so be it. NASA owes it to the citizens from whom it asks support to be frank, honest, and informative, so that these citizens can make the wisest decisions for the use of their limited resources.
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman
> "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
Fixed that for you ...
And the full quote actually has reasonable bearing (haha) upon this topic anyway:
"Let us make recommendations to ensure that NASA officials deal in a world of reality in understanding technological weaknesses and imperfections well enough to be actively trying to eliminate them. They must live in reality in comparing the costs and utility of the Shuttle to other methods of entering space. And they must be realistic in making contracts, in estimating costs, and the difficulty of the projects. Only realistic flight schedules should be proposed, schedules that have a reasonable chance of being met. If in this way the government would not support them, then so be it. NASA owes it to the citizens from whom it asks support to be frank, honest, and informative, so that these citizens can make the wisest decisions for the use of their limited resources.
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman
Post edited at 15:21
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In reply to NottsRich:
It's opening tomorrow:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-35160296
It's opening tomorrow:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-35160296
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In reply to Jim Fraser:
In my experience, the majority of the problems in Niddrie around Hogmanay are caused by the lady Niddronians, who mostly drink vodka.
A scarce of whisky will just make the fine Niddronian male a bit sad. (Not to mention the inhabitants of the Wauchopee Reservation).
In my experience, the majority of the problems in Niddrie around Hogmanay are caused by the lady Niddronians, who mostly drink vodka.
A scarce of whisky will just make the fine Niddronian male a bit sad. (Not to mention the inhabitants of the Wauchopee Reservation).
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In reply to george mc:
Nothing that couldn't have been fixed by some stout washing line and a couple of large prussic knots. Probably.
Nothing that couldn't have been fixed by some stout washing line and a couple of large prussic knots. Probably.
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Winter Conditions
This Winter Conditions page gives a summary of what is being climbed at the moment, what is 'in' nick and what the prospects are...
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