UKC

Just wondering what people's thoughts are on the coming weekend? Worth the trip up from Manchester? I am tempted by the fact that temperatures are going to fall and the winds are dying right down. Snow is forecast Thursday so the buttresses could actually be white (or am I being delusional here?). I do not want to get there and just find bare rock.
I usually wait until January before I go North but I am tempted to give the mixed climbing a go. Just wanted those more experienced and maybe based up North to say whether they think it may be worth the trip. I am keen to climb something (mixed grade 5 or 6) rather than just do a ridge or a scramble.
Thanks

In reply to Mark Grist:
Continued mild temperatures and rain until tomorrow will put most places back to square one I should think, you'll then have two days of snow and cold temperatures before the weekend. If I weren't injured I'd probably make the trip - aiming for some of the mixed classics in Cairn Gorm - Cairn Lochan most likely.

In reply to Mark Grist:

Hi mark.

The warm weather has stripped most of the base that built last week. Looks set to go cold tonight (raining at Cairngorm summit all day today!) and stay cold through the weekend.

So harder (gd V upwards) mixed routes, not relying on any frozen turf or snow build up will be getting climbed this weekend in the Northern Cairngorms.

Caution recommended, it will be very marginal; high hazard of loose rock, poorly frozen blocks, ripping turf etc....

Patience may be required for another week or so....

I will try and update with a pic or two tomorrow/friday.

Cheers

Ian

In reply to Mark Grist:

i wouldnt bother if i was travelling from south of the boarder... as it is comming from glasgow i will have a punt on sunday but expectations are low...

In reply to Mark Grist:
Cheers for the replies. I think it will be worth the trip. I know from 20 years of winter climbing that the biggest barrier to getting stuff done is to simply not make the effort to leave the house. I wish I lived in Scotland and could pop out for a day trip but that is not an option....so two days it is.

In reply to Mark Grist:

He who dares Rodders, he who dares!

In reply to Steve Perry:


Bonnet de Douche!

In reply to Mark Grist:

Cairngorm Ski Center posted a photo of several inches of snow at the car park just a few hours ago on facebook. Just need to hope that the ground will freeze enough with all the snow on top, but if it does, it should be a decent weekend!

In reply to Mark Grist:

I'd go for it, although Sunday does look quite warm now.

If it's too hot for climbing, go for a walk or scramble. It'll be decent weather.

D.

In reply to DannyC:

Met Office forecasts -6 for Cairngorm Mountain on Sun morning. What forecast are you using?

In reply to planetmarshall:

yes with rain at all levels by the afternoon...most forecasts

In reply to Webster:


On the 13th? Which forecasts? Met office puts precipitation at 20% for Cairngorm by 3pm, by which time most climbers will be back in the café for coffee and cake.

In reply to Mark Grist:

but I am tempted to give the mixed climbing a go.

Don't do it, its the Devil's work!

In reply to planetmarshall:

Everywhere I've looked seems to be predicting a fairly big thaw on Sunday PM. You never know, it might be fine - all depends exactly what time the change comes in. I'm likely to give it a go.

http://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Ben-Nevis/forecasts/1344
http://www.mountain-forecast.com/peaks/Cairngorm/forecasts/1234

D.

In reply to DannyC:

So does "everywhere" mean that one source? At the moment MWIS and the Met Office are predicting it to stay a bit colder; that's 2 to 1 in favour of no thaw on Sunday afternoon...

In reply to DundeeDave:


MWIS are saying forecast for Sunday is uncertain - so that could account for the variation in predictions. Still, if it were me I'd be making the trip.

In reply to Mark Grist:

Colder than forecast today, close to freezing all day down in Aviemore, looks good for saturday for some snowed up rock!

Pic here: https://twitter.com/stewartmountain

In reply to Mark Grist:

UKC conditions report here
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=630579

In reply to Mark Grist:

In Fort William the snow's back down to about 400m. Looking proper wintery over the weekend – but not too hostile. Could be some good action, but likely a wade-fest on the Ben. Beware the spewing gullies!

In reply to DannyC:
the mountain forecasts are better than nothing, but definitely not as good generally as the MIWS and MET mountain forecasts.

I've also used mountain forecasts in the alps and they were then again better than nothing but pretty average on accuracy even for 1 day ahead.

Still with the current weather systems I reckon its all guess work 3 days ahead.

In reply to planetmarshall:

it all depends how far north the low gets on sunday, it may just kiss the highlands, bringing more snow but staying cold, it may ride on through thawing at all levels or it may not even reach scotland, making the weekend cold and dry. but the BBC (and therefore met office) are fairly confident that by some point on ether sunday or monday the mild air will have reached all of scotland for a day or so.

In reply to Murko Fuzz:

Pretty damp but very snowy on Ben Nevis today as you say. Rock was black as your hat today: http://alanhalewood.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/decisions-decisions-on-ben-nevis...

In reply to DannyC:
One good day is enough to justify a trip from Birmigham! Though I reckon Sunday will be fine, MWIS suggests so but we shall see.

In reply to AlH:

That's very helpful - thanks. D.

In reply to Mark Grist:

Black Cuillin should be in prime mixed nick this w/e with heavy freeze straight onto wet surfaces and good snow cover above 400m. Well worth the extra mile........
http://skyeguides.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/cullin.pdf

In reply to DannyC: http://alanhalewood.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/ploutering-about-on-ben-nevis.ht... Huge amount of snow fell overnight, still not that cold but looking more promising higher up- if you could get there! (compare the pics of the crossing of the Allt a Mhuillin below the CIC Hut today with yesterday!)

In reply to Mark Grist:

Photos from today - note how little snow is in the gullies.... beware lots of loose rock!
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1052675704764206.1073741877.23221...

In reply to Mark Grist:
The mixed high on the Ben and in SCNL was mint, could have done with a bit more solid neve in places but great early season conditions.

In reply to Mark Grist:

Just to echo what Misha said regarding conditions, we had a brilliant day on Crest Route, Stob Coire nan Lochan on Saturday, and took a wonder up Ben Nevis yesterday, and saw that there were great conditions for mixed climbing. Unfortunately, my climbing partner's back was playing up, so we decided not to climb, but it was a stunning day to be out.

http://www.westcoast-mountainguides.co.uk/news/long-time-coming-crest-route...

In reply to Misha:

I would disagree with the wording. Plenty of routes to go at if they were snowed-up routes with minimum turf. No doubt in my mind that they were in "winter nick", indeed I climbed one. But I have known far better conditions, on those days I would have described the routes as being in "mint" conditions.


Just as a reference point for those who don't know what real good conditions look and feel like. I think it is only fair otherwise that folks will increasingly climb in out of conditions routes if they have no reference.

BTW, well done for believing and getting something done. Saturday was a brilliant day high up in the ciste...not a breath of wind all day!

In reply to Mark Grist:

Cheers for all the replies on this thread. I did go in the end and had a great time. Managed to get up Gargoyle Wall on the Ben and Scabbard Chimney in Glencoe. Not bad for someone who thought he could not mixed climb. Thanks in particular for all the guides who post updates. Very useful for the likes of me deciding whether to travel up from the South. Please keep the updates coming this season.

In reply to Misha:

I agree with Erick on this one, routes weren't in mint condition, perhaps should have said good early season nick!

I also seem you on Gargoyle, good effort, would have been difficult to protect me thinks. Hoar & dry cracks would have been my preferred 'mint' condition, Slab Climb would've certainly been easier to protect, if cams reliably placed.

As for SCNL, no way, another seasoned friend saw you, felt for you, since it was soggy underfoot! Indeed they backed of their intended route, due to poor conditions. Another friend reported similar on the Saturday.

Now several nights frost, a northerly & a cold day, might just turn this venue into one of the finest winter cliffs, for the mixed climber.

Don't read this as negative, but as a learning curve

Regards

Stuart

In reply to ian stewart:



Going by the light dusting of snow in the photos the Norries must be among the barest crags in the country yet they were done to death yet again at the weekend. It's a sociological mystery for me, maybe it's something to do with the herd mentality.

In reply to Captain Solo:

Agreed. We backed off a route, walked round the side of the crag and descended the ridge for a bit of fun on Saturday. Conditions on the easy stuff we were looking at weren't good; a lack of a proper build up and unfrozen turf. Can't comment on the harder lines but there seemed to be plenty of folk out. Oddly, there did seem to be a good bit of ice forming.

In reply to French Erick:
Would have been better if there was decent neve but that would have made it easier We were on Gargoyle Wall and there wasn't much turf but it was all well frozen. Not much rime admittedly but certainly winter conditions as you say. May be not mint but very good for early season.

In reply to Stuart the postie:
Cams were useless. Nuts and hexes fine. But this is Scotland, not Chamonix! Plenty of brushing off snow and chipping away at icy stuff to get at footholds - not much rime but certainly not bare rock. I think that's not usual for early season? A lot of it felt hard for the grade but that's not a bad thing in my book. A bit perplexed by the comments re SCNL. Wet underfoot where, on the walk in? Conditions were fine on the route and the party ahead of us seeme to enjoy it as well, so I'm amused that someone 'felt for us'. Again, not easy for the grade but that's not the point.

As an aside, when people say mixed conditions are good, do they mean it looks and feels wintery or that it's easy/steady for the grade, or a bit of both? May be sometimes people end up talking about different things. I'm more interested in how it looks and feels and of course wouldn't climb bare rock or unfrozen turf but clearly there's a scale from a dusting of snow to several inches of rime.

In reply to Misha:
Conditions are subjective, just because it's white, doesn't mean it's in. On the flip side, there's days the turf is frozen solid, ice forming, but the route doesn't look wintery enough for an ascent! Only those beneath such routes can decide if they think it's worth doing, no one else.

I also think that each cliff, rock type, has it's own set of acceptable conditions for an ascent, only guaged or judged by many visits to these venues. It is even common for a disagreement, what's in and what isn't between the two people climbing together!

I think your ascent of Gargoyle was a hard won affair, shows a determined approach! I had previously backed off p2, due to ice masking the crack, no gear and not enough to Climb. On another occasion, you could ice climb up that same chimney, screws n'all, partner though rock above was too dry, it's not in?!

Stob Coire Nan Looseblock, as the title says, needs to be frozen to bind the cliff together. It also needs to be wintery, due to the steepness of many lines, this doesn't always follow suit. Turf was chewy on Ben (and it's higher), friend said similar outside CIC, who'd climbed in SCNL on Saturday.

I have no doubts, if crag was properly frozen, my Sunday friend would have climbed chosen route, instead of backing off, to return when in better conditions. He had previously done Scabbard before, with helpful ice and neve, allowing a safe passage up that chimney.

The only thing that really should matter to you, did you enjoy yourselves, cos that's why we do it?

As previously stated, I meant no I'll feelings

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Sounds like conditions were similar to ours in the NW. Beinn Eighe was at the lower end of "justifiably wintry" but at the same time our route was in pretty difficult condition with 10mm thick verglas plastered on many of the harder sections.

We very nearly bailed from the top of pitch 1 due to the lack of "loose block cement" and the nasty verglas. Definitely needs some more build up, which I doubt will happen before the thaw!

In reply to Stuart the postie:
Oh, I'm just interested what other people think. Agree with what you say, including re different venues, eg somewhere like Beinn Eighe doesn't usually rime up. I think what helped on Scabbard was it got done on Saturday so some of the snow got brushed off the turf (not that there is much that's crucial) and blocks, allowing things to freeze better overnight. So there was just the odd small stone sitting on the belay ledges that wasn't frozen in.

In reply to Misha:


I can't speak too much for the 'frosty rock climbers' who are on hard mixed say VI,6 and above where dry cracks are an advantage but it looks wintry enough. They may require to take a micrometer for rime depth and a Pantone matching book for whiteness on their rack, I dont know, it's not what I'm into.
What concerns me a bit is when mere punters on my level take these criteria and apply them to the V,6 and below routes where a build up of ice and neve will always make a difference.
The logbooks are currently littered with 'great conditions' comments and my particular favourite 'great early season conditions' which actually means shite. Even routes I have climbed with neve and ice all the way have comments that the turf was frozen (?!).
I would settle for people posting comments of acceptable condition as great they most certainly ain't right now for the majority of routes.
I can't understand some route choices right now either, Red gully for example. Best one I ever saw was a couple of years ago a team attempting The Chute with no ice, you couldn't make it up.
Am I just one of the dwindling number of climbers who have the patience to wait for a freeze thaw cycle or two?

In reply to Misha:

When most people say 'good conditions' what they mean is 'we did a route'.

In reply to Captain Solo:


Our day is past Cap'n.

To be fair though this argument has been going on in one form or another since climbing began.

In reply to Captain Solo:
Due to the popularity of certain venues and certain routes, snow never will never buid up on routes as they are cleared of fresh snow to get down to the rock. Previously, when things weren't climbed several times a day, but rather once or twice a season, the fresh snow would thaw and re-freeze to form that lovely neve.
This does exist on Breriach still by the way, just not in Norries.
I remember when the road was shut for ages a few years ago (6?) All the routes had formed neve. Belhaven was more like VI, 3 as there was perhaps one runner a pitch but very steady climbing for the confident. That time was a real head game on the routes - they were akin to Journey into Space or Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner. However, most people declared them to be "in bad condition" (!)
James

In reply to James Edwards:

Hi James,

An interesting post, could be some truth in that? These days, many read what was done on here, then repeat it themselves, a more guaranteed weekend away. It was a different game, BBC weather with isobars, Radio Scotland at 6.55pm, word of mouth talking to others.......ahem!

During foot & mouth (2001 was it?) the Ben was closed for 5 weeks, conditions on Orion etc were fantastic, when we were allowed to play again! Then again, it was settled cold weather.

Stuart

In reply to Misha:


The best conditions are probably those which give the most satisfying climbing. Obviously subjective but on a mixed route having a bit of perfect neve/ice at the back of a groove will probably give a 'better' route than if you had to do some desperate scrabbling instead. I guess easier climbing might result but then it might be bolder. I think it's partly about variety (ice, turf, rock rather than just the latter) and partly that some tricky moves are more 'fun' than others. Steep torques up a crack to latch bomber neve on a ledge tends to be more enjoyable than the same moves towards a desperate flounder onto the powdery ledge with axes ripping!

In reply to James Edwards:

Probably when a nasty slab gets covered in climbable rime it is celebrated more than when the rime is covering a good crack!

In reply to DaveHK:


Well since the mid 80s anyway. I'm confident I will find the conditions I crave at some points during the season just as I have done for the past 15 yrs or so I've been 'Scottish winter climbing' or 'winter climbing' as I like to call it. But then again I don't have the pressure of a blog or Instagram to update.

In reply to Captain Solo:

I'm enjoying this discussion but do I have to put my slippers on before contributing?

For what it's worth I generally agree. Certainly looking at the lower grade routes climbed over the last few days - many just were in very dubious condition. I find it hard to be too critical though.

In reply to TobyA:

I've been sticking to mountaineering ridges waiting for winter conditions to arrive properly. The idea of doing Fiacaill Couloir / Hidden Chimney / Red Gully that sort of thing with no build up at all makes me queasy. Coire an t Sneachda in particular is a tottering choss pile that needs freezing together and there does seem to be a tendency towards folk doing low to mid grade snow and ice routes as rubble climbs. I'm as keen to get amongst it as anyone I just keep biting my lip and telling myself to be patient and it will arrive in due course.

In reply to AlH:

As someone no longer living in Scotland I've stayed out of these arguments, but it was clear when I lived in Strathspey in the 1990s that many climbers, often young, had seen photos of hard routes being climbed in lean conditions (little snow or ice) & had just assumed that was normal for routes of all grades. It was common to see such folk climbing grade I or II gullies with just a sprinkling of snow over the rubble, etc. On the few occasions I spoke to them, they didn't seem to realise that such routes normally have more snow or (more importantly) that they were probably causing quite a lot of damage to the poorly frozen vegetation.

In reply to Doug:

which comes back to the meat of what is "winter climbing".
It has many faces. Each types of climbing need very different sets of conditions. Either to make them enjoyable, ethical, safe or even possible! So, for those who are not yet knowledgeable in what it is, here is what I think:

What Captain solo said is very significant. Many lower grade routes, by nature, need a build-up of snow, ice or névé. Other lower grade route, may only need a dusting but absolutely require frozen turf (for possibility of ascent, safety and enjoyment...but also so that people may climb them in future).

Harder climbs tend to be on steeper ground and the majority are snowed-up route (hooking and torquing on rock). Many people think they are not right. I have no problem with them...i like to try them. Attempting them under a foot of rime is setting yourself for a fail for mere mortals. Dry tooling them is not OK. Finding them in acceptable conditions is an art form in itself before even setting to climb them!

Do not apply rules you saw on Greg, Guy, Nick or whoever real hard climber's blog to your climb unless they are the same climbs. In the same way, you should not follow tracks off-piste without prior knowledge of place and conditions. Or jump the lights on the road because you saw someone do it once.
The climbers mentioned before have served very long apprenticeships. They are weather gurus and have set their own lives in ways that allow them to be super opportunistic...in order to make the best of ephemeral conditions.

Winter climbing is about being there at the right time...not a day too early/late. It rankles when you're a weekend climber like myself but then "life isn't fair, and one day you die"!

Enough of me spouting shite.

In reply to French Erick:

Bonjour mon ami


I wasn't, but it seems a lot of climbers do, like Captain Solo, I was highlighting that certain routes, including easy gullies, do ned more than just a sprinkle of snow. I also know that can happen early in the season in some years & I've climbed in the Northern Corries in early December in the past. One of my best early season day was Euans Buttress direct which was very snowy & frozen on a bright sunny day.

In reply to Doug:

Yes, I remember the same from my time in Scotland in the 90s too. I think its still true that many people seem to think almost automatically that I and II generally means gullies, when actually a scrambly ridge is normally more enjoyable even compared to a gully full of squeaky neve, although maybe that's just me?

You can have fun early season in the N. Corries on easier routes I guess, but it will depend on conditions. The first route I did there was Jacobs Ladder when it was almost all pure water ice. Quite exciting for a I! But new soft snow over rubble is not the right conditions.

In reply to AlH:


There is a separate thread on this very topic.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=630804&v=1

In reply to TobyA:


I have a very good hickory number if you're interested, joking aside I'm not that old!!

In reply to gavmac:



Just to be clear I'm not going to get embroiled in the usual is it in/ not in debate. If folk want to gouge away at the half-frozen gravel and pull on the tottering blocks of the Norries that's fine with me of there's a dusting of snow on it.
Everyone is champing at the bit at this time of year, it keeps other areas of the country peaceful anyway.
I just think we need to encourage people to rein it in a bit with the exaggeration of the quality conditions patter for lower grade routes.
When I look at some of the logbooks (I know pinch of salt sometimes) winter experience can amount to a sum total of a half dozen routes over the last 2 seasons- 4 in sneachda, ledge route and dorsal arête. Yet they will offer up some misguided gems that perpetuate the myth.
You don't need slippers but I find them really comfy...

In reply to Captain Solo:

That's fair and I don't think threads like this do any harm in highlighting/discussing/challenging what constitutes 'good/in nick' conditions - especially on routes that need a build up.

I feel better having put my slippers on anyway - your right, they are comfy!

In reply to French Erick:
Agree with all that.

In reply to gavmac:

Certainly looks like a weekend for slippers!