UKC

Thinking about the number of questions that come up along the lines of "what will conditions at venue x be like on date y?" and "which routes are best at crag x in y conditions?" some ideas occured to me that could be done with the current data (date, location, number of ascents) and maybe a new winter route field to add for "conditions".

1. Add a subjective "conditions" rating to the route voting panel, maybe:
1 - Dusted, 2 - Thin, 3 - Mint, 4 - Banked
2. Would be nice per route, but maybe more practical per crag (or crag section), add a bar graph of:
- the number of ascents per month - either current year or all years
- the average conditions rating per month - either current year or all years

In reply to iksander:

We have some ideas for graphing some of the logbook data to give more information on crags.

One idea, if you take a crag like Ben Nevis for example, is to graph ascents by discipline throughout the year. Something like a line graph with lines that show rock routes, winter routes etc giving a count as to what months people climb these types of routes.

One of the things with the winter conditions page at the moment is it just gives information on what has been logged and not much else. For example I've looked at a number of routes that have been logged as DNF yet they are displayed in the winter conditions page giving the impression this crag might be in good nick. I have some ideas on how this might be improved that I hope to sort out this week.

Cheers,
Martin

In reply to iksander:

Sounds like a rubbish idea. Where is your since of adventure?

One of the best things about winter climbung is when you take a punt with conditions and it pays off.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
I was just waiting for this comment to come along!

Conditions for winter climbing change hourly so its pretty much always going to be a punt. If you like the adventure just don't use it? Also while your at it leave the guidebook at home.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Think of the flipside though, in a few years time when the database has been fully exploited, giving a prediction of THE best route for this weekend, you and I will know exactly where not to go.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:



Fair enough, don't look at it then.

And while you're about it, bin all your guidebooks and do away with the grading system to insure maximum adventure

In reply to iksander:

High five Tom.

I don't think it would have usefulness either, unless you knew the climbers posting about their route choice and conditions.

Experience and knowledge should be learned first hand in the mountains, not sitting down on UKC.

A guidebook points you where your route is/goes, doesn't guarantee optimum conditions.

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie:
The winter conditions page doesn't provide you with information that will guarantee you good conditions at any particular venue. It has also never been and never will be a replacement for experience and knowledge to judge conditions. That is down to the climber on the day.

The page is designed as a tool to help you form an opinion on where might be a good venue to visit. Its similar to asking your mate who has been out the day before how conditions were.

Combining this information with the usual weather forecasts, webcams, blogs, your mate "Big Jim" who was out yesterday and is raving about how great conditions are, hopefully you can make the most informed choice possible.

If you don't want this information or thing its rubbish that's absolutely your call. If you're basing your plans solely on what people are reporting on UKC, well that's just stupidity.

All we interested in is making something cool that people want to use and I'm pretty sure the majority of folks do find it useful, even if they don't like to admit it .

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:



I find it useful and it is good for creating a FOMO whilst sat at my desk.

However I would be pretty sceptical about using the data in a quantitive (I think that is the correct use of the term, my stats knowledge is limited) way. Check out the log of Prore (Winter) (VIII 7) from the 3/12/15. I walked past Lochain that day and there is absolutely no way it was in winter condition. There was only a dusting of snow, it was above freezing on the summit and exposed rock was warm enough to touch bare handed. I had colder hands at Burbage West a day or two later. To use data from non ascents like that could be seriously misleading and cost wayward Sassenachs like myself a couple of tanks of fuel...

I do however find the qualitative comments in the logbooks from experienced winter climbers like Stuart extremely useful at times.

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:


The guys I climb with or know personally, can vouch for their opinion, since theirs would be similar to mine.

I believe many on this forum, perhaps unwittingly for several reasons, would deem a route climbable, since others had logged it. I had a similar rant on another post about conditions in SCNL, doesn't mean they did anything wrong, just that 'perhaps' would have greatly enriched their climbing experience, if route properly frozen!

We are all different, after all.

Stuart

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:

" UK winter conditions" is a misnomer, it seems to me most people logging ascents give very little information about "conditions" or even whether it's really "in nick", the inexperienced seem to see an ascent at a particular venue, as a green light, the downside being certain routes and venues see a stampede.


But of course the real mountaineers, would follow the true path, , don that habbit and live and breath the mountains, as the lows spiral in off the Atlantic, the autumnal limbo is broken in anticipation of early season cold and those plastered ephemeral butresses.

In reply to Stuart the postie:



This. Although, if a route's not properly frozen you are damaging the ecosystem of the crag and that is important, given the rarity of some arctic and alpine plant species found on our crags.

I think sometimes when people do a route they overrate the conditions and confuse the conditions with how good a day out they had?...

In reply to LakesWinter:

There are more people than ever in the hills in winter. And there's a lot more coming in future. They'll be coming from further away, without the local networks of experienced climbers than climbers of today. While standards at the top are higher than ever, I'd guess that the average experience level of today's winter climber is lower than in the past. I think this trend is likely to continue, and no one can stop or change it - and maybe they shouldn't.

Obviously there is nothing better than your own experience or that of respected peers to inform your decisions of where/what/when to climb. Even then there are no guarentees.

And there's legitimate concerns about the "sat nav" effect of people suspending common sense because their beloved device tells them to drive down the rail tracks etc.

But there's also a danger of patronising sensible people by saying they can't be trusted to make a balanced judgment based data they know to be imperfect and subjective. This applies to existing UKC data like voting on grades.

And there's evidentally a parochial "keep it under your hat" fear of in-nick venues getting mobbed by "the hordes". Would it be better if they went and hacked up some out of condition crag instead so the in-the-knows don't have to queue?

Also I think many climbers might be more honest about reporting that they climbed a route out of condition if it was anonymous. This could be useful for conservation awareness.

Conditions are always going to be controversial, especially as the climate becomes more unpredictable, but that's not going to keep more climbers with less experience and local connections from coming. Would it be better if they had more information (even if subjective) or less?

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:

It would be nice if you could mend existing functionality (eg the UKH route mapping) before adding new stuff...