UKC

Hi peeps,

I had a climbing fall in March and badly broke my leg. I was off work for 4 months which put a huge financial strain on my family. I am mostly recovered now but have not returned to bouldering but have been sport climbing a bit.

My wife thinks I am mad and should quit climbing, when she tells her friends that I am back climbing they are all shocked and think I am reckless and selfish.

I have been trying to argue the point that one car crash doesn't stop you driving, getting back on the horse and all that stuff...

I know my Mrs is just looking out for my health and the wellbeing of our family, how do I convince her that climbing is a good idea?

In reply to Beardyman:

Driving is a little more essential than climbing though.

Perhaps she's right.

In reply to Beardyman: She's neither right nor wrong, she simply doesn't get what climbing is about. Maybe she doesn't do anything in her life that gives her a buzz so she can't appreciate the benefits of something like climbing. Get some of that insurance that pays out if you're unable to work and carry on climbing. How would your relationship benefit from you giviung up the thing you love doing because of your wife? You'd also be giving up your climbing mates too, remember. Who cares what her witless friends think?

In reply to Beardyman:

She has a point really. You are on some level being selfish. Whether that risk and compromise is worth it for you and your family is something that needs pretty serious discussion and maybe some negotiation.

In reply to Frank the Husky:
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it, I've been very unhappy this year when I couldn't climb. I don't think any of them have anything that drives them like climbing does for me.

In reply to Beardyman:

What your wife's friends think is irrelevant. More important are your wife's feelings. From your profile pic it appears that you have at leas one young child, possibly more?

Only you and your wife can work this out by discussion, but try and put yourself in her shoes. She probably went through hell when you had your accident and it probably made her think about the possibility of being widowed with young children left fatherless, or with a permanently disabled husband.

No matter how low the risk and how illogical it seems, these are very real concerns to a non climbing partner.

Maybe consider a compromise of giving up climbing (at least leading) until your children are older and self sufficient? Then it would seem reasonable that she should then give her blessing to you perusing your passion for the sport?

In the scheme of things that may seem like a long lay off, but when you are bringing up a family you don't have a lot of time or money to pursue your sport anyway. It can wait, and 10 to 20 years at your sort of age isn't that long a time to abstain. If your wife agrees to such a deal the day will come when you have plenty of time to get back into the sport in a big way.

Only a suggestion, but talk it through with her and don't dismiss her concerns which are very real to her.

Good luck.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Very few (if any) insurance companies will insure you for climbing/mountaineering. As far as I understand it it's just a risk you take.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:


Depends on your point of view.

In reply to Beardyman:

If you like sport climbing and bouldering I'd suggest getting more into those and educating your wife on how safe those activities are on the whole compared to say trad or winter climbing.

In reply to Beardyman:

Get a new Mrs, with new friends.

In reply to Beardyman:

This is a really difficult issue, and something similar can happen with other sporting activities - cycling in its various forms comes to mind. Although you don't mention the matter of time away from the family to go climbing this can also be a big bone of contention. I have known a number of marriages which have disintegrated as a result of these tensions. We hear of golf "widows" (not literally) but at least golf can be restricted to, say, Saturday morning. The time issue is much greater for climbing and cycling.
This is when it is brought home to me how lucky is the man (or woman, I suppose) who shares his sporting passion with his wife/partner, as did mine. However, when we had children we jointly came to the conclusion that family life was incompatible with one, or even both partners climbing, so we did almost none for many years. Debbie found that even if we had someone else babysitting she wasn't happy with us both on the crag together. I believe that the decision to have a family cannot but affect both partners in restricting their activities, and if one partner is the only restrictee that person will need to be a saint if it isn't to rankle.
I realise this may not be an answer, but we decided to concentrate on a family sport where everyone can take part, even if sometimes a little unwillingly in the case of the off-spring. For many years we took part in orienteering almost every week-end and this had all sorts of benefits both for the adults and the children. When we came back to climbing there is no doubt that we had sacrificed our best years as climbers, but we have still done a lot of climbing (almost all together) A.C. (after children). I have to say I have no regrets.

In reply to Beardyman:

Tricky. You know what you get out of climbing, you know how happy it makes you and how that translates into your family life. Perhaps they don't know that climbing is remarkably safe if done properly. IMHO relationships where one party tries to edit who the other is or force someone to drop what they love are going to be severely tested.

In reply to Beardyman:

She's bound to be worried if you've been injured....she may also think it could have been much more than a leg and she's widowed.
I'd say just ease back in to climbing in a steady sensible manner. My partner didn't know anything about climbing when we got together, she got her head around rock climbing but really struggles when I'm away in Scotland for winter trips.
Time will count I guess...

In reply to Beardyman:

I'm self employed and pretty much gave up playing football after seeing some bad injuries on mates. It would leave me in a right mess if I had a few months off. I wouldn't give up climbing though but have definitely got more cautious as I get older. Hardly winter climb now and don't highball so much. I think you can manage the risk to a certain degree but it's always hard for non climbers to understand. The decision is between you and your wife and there's no right or wrong answer. I'd tell her mates to mind their own business though

In reply to Beardyman:
Just to clarify; I have been mostly bouldering for the last 10 years. Once I had a mortgage and family I lost my drive to do trad routes or soloing.

Since my accident I have been out sport climbing (not leading) and indoor climbing (leading but well below my top-rope level) - For me this seems a reasonable compromise and a fairly safe way to keep climbing.

I know so many friends that have been injured whilst out on their bikes, either by traffic or downhill mountain biking falls, I don't feel they have the same pressure to never get on a bike again.

I don't want to be wife bashing here, just keen for some good points to make the next time we argue about climbing!!

In reply to Yanis Nayu:


Driving is how you get to the climbing.

In reply to Beardyman:
I'd probably set about carefully explaining about the different kinds of climbing and the associated levels of risk, and explain about falling into space on overhangs when sport climbing/indoor leading compared to onto slabs, and the different elements at play.

In reply to Beardyman:

Is it the skill or the risk, or the skill of managing the risk that makes climbing for you?

I gave up a high risk sport before having a child - I rode, but rode for money. Anyone who rides for money knows it's as different as an indoor top rope is to outdoor lead (except you can't turn horses down so you're also not getting to choose your poison!). I had gone where I was going with it but it still took quite a while to actually stop and if I hadn't had a child I suspect i may not have stayed stopped. I have absolutely no desire to own my own well schooled horse, as soon as the schooling was done I would want to sell and buy something extraordinary going cheap because it has a killer reputation! I could not do it as a hobby as the sport I loved took far too many hours just to maintain skills (including managing fear). I would not consider at any level returning to that kind of riding now I have a child - maybe I would if I trusted her Dad but I don't so I'm coming home at the end of the day.

Now I climb but that I'll stay climbing indoors till I have the time to practice the skills outdoors before heading outdoors under my own steam. Even indoors if I don't like it I'll leave it. I'm a wuss - not even a climber by many standards, the riding equivalent of someone paying to ride. I can still push myself to my limits physically, I still find that as I learn I become more aware of all I need to learn, I still have my own (granted irrational due to heights not really being my thing!) fears to conquer, it's still annoyingly, wonderfully, intrinsically sodding hard!

Friends with a shed load of outdoor experience seem united in telling me that once I have time I can do climbing outdoors with my attitude of needing to go home at the end of the day, one friend even fairly sure trad leading can be done that way. I suspect their confidence is in part due to knowing I'm not up for the risk taking any more. It doesn't mean it's totally safe, indoors isn't totally safe - especially when really trying and learning. I've taken it to mean it doesn't have to be extreme.

What I'm saying is that even within a sport different motivations can alter the reality of it to such an extent that one form is scarcely recognisable as the same to another. The bit I think makes the biggest difference is what motivates the person - if it's risk that motivates then it's risks they'll chase.

I couldn't ride safely because I'd bored and it would feel utterly pointless not to be schooling or trying to figure out something people had given up on. I can climb safely (comparatively!) because it's the physical actions and sequences that motivate me not the risk. I'm not ashamed to take the safer options, more importantly, where even the safer options still don't feel right I'm happy to give it a miss.

I climb

In reply to Beardyman:

I can see both sides, I did a lot of strenuous sports when younger . ( luckily I was never off work with sport related injury)

My son-in- law is a Sky engineer and has to climb ladders to work, he too was recently off for months with a broken ankle from his football .He has recovered and still plays in a football league but is in his 30's now. His employer had to pay for overtime to others to cover for him.
I would be surprised if his employer would put up with another preventable long term injury, and I would probably not blame them.

Another chap at my workplace ( mid 30's) did a similar thing, an Achilles injury at 5 a sides, and was also off for a long period, and his workload was just added to others in the office who were expected to cover his work (without overtime) whilst he was sat at home.
So not just always that the employer suffers.

The lessons here are if you are playing football ( or other sport just for fun) , don't take it too seriously, don't overcommitted and in football in particular , don't tackle others ( particularly and oldies) recklessly
( Accidents happen , but I hear that reckless tackles, in meaningless games, happens a lot)

In reply to Beardyman:

Just change your climbing to that of lower risk - sport climbing is probably safer than bouldering for a start.

In reply to Beardyman:


Show her the table of risk of injury per hour of participation in various sports from "Evaluation of Injury and Fatality Risk in Rock and Ice Climbing".

Quantitatively, indoor climbing is extremely safe. When you take account of the fact that not doing any sport is a significant health risk there is no rational risk-reduction argument for not climbing indoors.

Outdoor climbing is much riskier but its a case of balance, what kind of climbing and how you go about it. So try and change the argument from no-climbing to finding an agreed compromise about what kinds of climbing are safe enough.

In reply to Beardyman:

Would you be the same person that she loves if you gave up climbing and became a grumpy, unhappy man? I would like to think our significant others are capable of understanding things we are passionate about, maybe you need to have a proper discussion with her and tell her about how much it means to you.

Any relationship will inevitably have compromises. You imply the broken leg was due to bouldering, so perhaps giving up bouldering but continuing sport climbing would make both of you happy?

In reply to Beardyman:


Just a suggestion: wait for a suitably quiet moment and initiate an open, honest discussion about this with your wife; explain that, although you don't feel able to give up climbing completely, you have given the whole question of assessing risk a great deal of thought since your accident (I can't imagine this being untrue). Explain that there are steps you can take to reduce the risk in future, and allow her to feel involved in the process of reviewing your procedures.

In reply to Beardyman:

You give up climbing. If she gives up her friends, compromise on both sides.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Best & simplest suggestion, I second this (well I 14th this if the likes are to be believed).

In reply to Beardyman:

Have you tried explaining how you are much more cautious and considered now? I don't know how you injured yourself, but if it was say soloing, say you won't solo anymore... Or if you injured yourself on trad, say you'll stick to sport from now on.

I don't think it's unreasonable they ask you to stop, especially if they supported you financially while you couldn't work? And the accident was probably quite emotional for her too, so maybe you just need to give it time and ease yourself back in to climbing slowly and let her get used to the thought of you climbing again.

In reply to Beardyman:
Climbing isn't the B-all and end-all. The point is can you find something else that will fulfill you like climbing can. Otherwise you will be miserable. For me it's playing in a band.

In reply to Removed User:


I assumed that the post got 14 likes because it was generally taken as a joke. Please don't tell me it was actual advice.

In reply to Beardyman:

I stopped climbing for a decade following a badly broken leg (playing 5-a-side the day after returning from a weeks' climbing in the far north of Scotland - typical!). I stopped because the injury took a decade to recover from. When I realised I was capable again I had married and had 3 sprogs. I thought long and hard and decided it was ok for me to climb as long as I was more risk-averse than I used to be. I'm more likely to back off in bad weather, always wear a helmet, won't lead anything too run out. I started back indoors at first and made a point of climbing 3/4 of a route then getting lowered off even if I thought I could reach the top. All a mental game getting me used to the idea that backing off was fine. I'm also considerably older than I was and probably just enjoy being in the hills rather than pressurising myself to climb harder all the time.

If you are trying to make a case to your other half it might be worth pointing out that a higher proportion of people perish when angling than climbing (true)

In reply to Michael Gordon:


I wasn't thinking so much about climbing injury insurance, more a "catch all" one in case of anything. I'm sure he will have to declare the fact he climbs, but these policies are all over the place and friends of mine have them.

In reply to Beardyman: Hey Beardyman; this is tricky but I'll give it a shot. Simple things first, to my mind; what her friends think is pants. Tell her you friends think not going climbing is madness so whose friends are to be believed? "My friends say what you're doing/not doing is madness..." is a pretty pointless way of arguing and it makes a pretty weak case too.

Second, you say you've taken up sport and indoor climbing and backed of (higher risk) trad, which I think is possibly/probably in part due to what she has said. So tell her she's made you/helped you set aside the most enjoyable but risky aspect of climbing for her, and that you would be a miserable, frustrated horrorshow to live with if you gave up climbing all together.

It us as important to you as, for example, her friends are to her, and it's an expression of your character, which was part of what attracted her to you and made you get married/become a couple in the first place.

Accidents happen, and you've removed the main risk (trad climbing) and so she should be glad you're willing to sacrifice that for her and the kids.

Hope that helps and doesn't come across as cynical.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:



Total nonsense.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I think it was good advice.

In reply to Beardyman:

There are two separate issues here.

One involves climbing. The other is deciding if you are going to let your partners friends control your life.

There's plenty of good advice on here about the climbing. Picking safer types of climbing and helping your partner to understand that could make a lot of difference, as well as making sure they realise it's a compromise you're making for them. You might also want to look for other forms of activity that you can use to help see you through any low points, that way you're less likely to want/need to go climbing when either your state of mind or the conditions are off?

In terms of her friends, personally I couldn't give a flying f--k what Mrs Wintertree's friends think of my choices, but I'd be more than a bit pissed off if she tried to use their views as "evidence" or arm twisting in a discussion or argument and I think I'd make my views on that quite clear. Tempered by the fact none of them would have the first clue what they were talking about.

In reply to Beardyman:

All of us responding are biased, of course, but I'm sure that's exactly what you were hoping for.

Is there some way of showing your Mrs that sport climbing and low bouldering are extremely safe? Videos of big falls on bolts or something. My wife knows that if I go out and claim that I'm going to do an e4 then there may be reason to worry (although the most likely outcome is giving up) unless I explain that I know it's safe. Even then, she worries a bit I think. However, if I'm going bouldering or sport climbing she's not concerned.

If you are prepared to give up trad for a while, I think you've made a big compromise. Just wait until your kids can drag you up those exciting cliffs you've been thinking about. That's my plan

In reply to Urgles:


Really? You surprise me.

In reply to JayPee630:


This post pretty much sums it up, in my opinion. Anyone who disagrees, or, worse still, advises simply ditching the wife (and presumably the child, too) for a more compliant model, is ..... well, suffice to say that this thread pretty neatly sorts the adults from the adolescents.

In reply to Beardyman:
If you were climbing before you met your wife and she married you and had a child knowing the situation then it's her problem to deal with. If you've taken up climbing since you were married and especially since you became a father then it's your problem, if you love your wife you wouldn't put her through the worry and you should give up climbing.
Sorted, next problem.

In reply to Beardyman: At the risk of pissing off you and many others on here I am afraid that despite being a lifelong mountaineer and climber I think your wife and her friends are probably right in this case.

I climb loads, sport, trad, winter, but I'm perfectly happy to admit that I'm intensely selfish, however I don't have kids to look after. Many other keen adventurous climbers I know are also childless, some unplanned but a good number by active choice. Many others I know have changed their lifestyle after getting married and settling down. However, on the flipside, many of the most active climbers I currently see at the crag are actually those who are retired with grown up children.

It is really not that contraversal but extreme sports and being a responsible parent don't really mix. Trying to convince yourself otherwise many years after making crucial decisions about your life is leaving it far too late.

In short, the awkward conversations you are now having should probably have taken place many years ago and there can only be one person to blame for the current impasse and it is absolutely not your wife or her friends.

I really don't envy your position. You may need to face up to some uncomfortable truths - potentially you've married the wrong person, perhaps you've made the wrong decision about starting a family or it might just be that you're understandably reluctant to accept that you are indeed being selfish by the standards of wider society.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
It is possible to have a family and still climb, but yes you have to compromise, like giving up on, for instance, onsight trad at your limit. Climbing can be a pretty safe pastime if you are intelligent about it, far safer than driving.

Also, I think it is extremely important to have a passion and associated friends and social life outside of your family life. The whole 'settling down' thing is nonsense.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


I've just been insured at a reasonable rate by Summit Financial

In reply to Beardyman:

I used to love riding a motorbike but had a nasty smash and broke 10 bones including my back in 2 places. With the insurance money I then bought a faster bike (ZX9R). It was only years later that I gave up riding when my first daughter arrived. I climb and have always climbed but I have been of the belief that a little risk is good for your mind as long as it is manageable risk. In summary, keep climbing but maybe look at the type of climbing you are doing as others have advised. All the best to you, chris

In reply to Beardyman:

I think you should keep climbing and quit marriage

In reply to Beardyman:
Why did she marry you?

Climbing is one of the things that makes you who you are.

The more of the things you give up that make you who you are, the more you become someone else.

That might make her happy, would it make you happy? Would she be happy if you were unhappy?

In reply to The Ex-Engineer:


Thats about it.

In reply to Urgles:


Can you explain then why I have known more than 20 climbers who have been killed climbing but I don't know a single person killed in a road accident? Must be one of those statistical anomalies

Al

In reply to Beardyman:

Thanks for starting the thread - something I've been wrestling with for a few years now. My kids are 4 and a half and 2 and a half. If I had an accident and was incapacitated or worse for any length of time the effect on my family would be catastrophic. I think scaling back now with a view to getting back into it when the kids are older is the way to go for me. I'm sad to say there are no easy answers but I personally know of two families this year who have been devastated by dads who went out for a day climbing and never came back and that's pretty terrifying.

In reply to Beardyman:

I think that there is a lot of sense on this thread and that it would be worth you reading it over again.You are in a difficult situation, but if you are like me, then you will actually get morose and depressed if you don't go outdoors for a while. Sometimes this can be negated by running or biking,but neither are a true substitute. If you get depressed and being more tetchy that could affect how your marriage runs and even how well you do in your job. Climbing for many people is a pressure release valve and it makes for avoidance of negative thoughts and probably even suicide.

I had a major accident 9 years ago and my children (who were 11 and 17) and girlfriend(I was separated) did suffer with me being in hospital in the high dependency neuro-head unit. I was off work for 6 months(officially,but I went in for stuff that only I could do,despite my double vision at that time) and I reckon that it cost me about 1/4 of the business turnover for a year, despite having locum insurance.

You can get cover, insurance wise, such as with sports cover direct. I also got life assurance changed a couple of years ago.

I went back and did a couple of VS's in the Lakes 5 months after the accident, before going back to work.

In reply to Beardyman:

I took a climbing fall 5 years ago, fell 7 metres and decked it. I broke my leg and I never considered giving up climbing.
A very good friend of mine was very surprised it didnt put me off for life, but this never crossed my mind.

It definetly made me more cautious though...

I always think the most dangerous part of the day is driving home, especially after a long day when you are mentally spent.

In reply to GridNorth:



I think the 'can be' is the important part here. To a large extent you can control your exposure to risk, so if you want to lessen the risks you expose yourself to you dial back the onsight soloing at gogarth and do more indoor top roping.

In reply to Beardyman:

Having been in this situation myself, I don't think there are any right or wrong answers. You are going to have to do a lot of thinking, listening and communicating with your wife to work out a way forward. Her friends' opinions probably aren't worth much but they will be informing what she thinks, so take care if you decide to tell her they are not worth considering.

My other half took a leader fall last year (on sighting a trad route right on his limit - beyond it as it turned out), which resulted in many broken bones, some time in intensive care, 6 months off work and he is still having treatment 18 months on - almost done though. I was belaying, my three children were present, but didn't see the actual accident, although eldest one (11 years old) was a complete star during what turned out to be a complicated rescue involving a lifeboat and a helicopter. She witnessed things an 11 year old shouldn't have to see and for that my husband and I are both deeply sorry. What was a family day out climbing, ended up with a serious situation, for all of us.

We have all returned to climbing. Husband and I have both lead trad routes since then and eldest daughter has lead her first route indoors, although there have been no grade pushing for any of us.

HAd I been a non-climbing partner would I have felt differently about his return to climbing - probably I would have. Having a seriously injured partner in hospital was a very hard time for me and the kids, and I am very much aware of how easily I could have become a widow that day. However, as we all climb, we knew the risks anyway and accepted them. We still do, although we exercise more caution perhaps that we did that day.

I hope you find a solution.

In reply to Beardyman:

Tricky. Like several others here I can see both sides. There certainly is something inherently selfish about climbing as a family man - you are putting yourself at risk, and that risk has consequences beyond yourself. For me the 'you wouldn't want me to be unhappy would you?' argument doesn't really wash. It's trying to make her look unreasonable and mean, when all she's asking is: 'can you stop doing an activity which has a proven track record of putting us in financial difficulty and emotional distress.' It's not unreasonable of her. However, I think there is a solution to be found through frank discussion of the risks you take, and compromising on the sorts of climbing activities you do, if necessary. I really wish you the best of luck with it.

For what it's worth, I'm married with a young child and it weighs on my mind. I met my wife on a Hot Rock climbing expedition, so we both knew what we were getting though. She'd never ask me to stop climbing but I think that's based on an assumption that despite wanting to push myself, I won't put myself in unjustifiable danger. I've always been a safe climber, and I don't climb particularly hard, but I do still want to explore my limits. I think knowing yourself, your abilities and your limits, are crucial to the process. After all, it's not like you want to avoid injury and/or death just to keep your wife happy!

In reply to Beardyman:

I'm not sure how I would react if my husband's hobby carried a real risk of financial struggle for the family.
I'm pretty sure in your wife's shoes, I would be asking you to stick to indoors, or sports climbing.

I don't think the decision to climb or not is just yours, since the financial impact is for everyone. But it is up to you to educate her about the risks in climbing.

Anyway, what caused the fall you had? I am asking because I had a friend who broke his leg climbing (trad) and six months later he broke his back (sport). In his case his lack of rope skills / attention to detail and general disrespect of safety practises were major contributing factors, and as his partner I wouldn't have wanted him to continue climbing.

In reply to Beardyman:

Her concerns are reasonable, and if you love her you will accept them as such and try to work with them. I'd agree wholeheartedly that if climbing is central to your being you can't give it up, but hopefully you can modify your approach so that what sounds like a nightmare situation is much less likely to repeat.

I know quite a few parents who have shifted their climbing focus away from trad, alpinism and winter climbing, towards sport and bouldering. Possibly under initial duress, but they're all now much stronger! One in particular has started a careful move back towards occasional hard trad projecting. He's getting up routes that he wouldn't have looked at a few years back, and feels that his technical advance (through sport and bouldering) allows him to do so much more safely. Just some food for thought...

In reply to Beardyman:
You will have to decide your priorities, climbing is not the be all of everything, nor is it as dangerous as driving for example.
I think statistically if your going out climbing the most dangerous part of the day would be the drive to the climb.
However, you don't have to climb but you may well have to drive for work etc.
I mostly sport climb now, but there's no doubt trad climbing has quite a lot of risk especially in winter.
I'm also trying to reduce the risks I take especially skiing off piste which I am starting to think is the most risky thing I do as I 'm away all season.

In reply to Beardyman:

Geezers need excitement.

D

In reply to remus:

Absolutely but it's the blanket statement that's always rolled out that the most dangerous part of a climbing day is the drive to and from the crag. I just do not buy it, even with today's modern equipment.
Al

In reply to Beardyman:

Has she tried climbing? Maybe try to convince her on a trip to the indoor wall to see how the equipment works, get a feel for all the safety stuff, and generally see that it's not full of adrenaline fuelled nutters. She might even start to enjoy it?!

I have no real wisdom other than that - my husband and I are both climbers and have no kids, so easy decisions for us really!

In reply to GridNorth:


I've used that one myself a few times but I'm starting to wonder now. 5 climbers I've known have died on the hill (or sea cliff) but I can't think of any killed in a car crash. In fact I can only think of one relatively distant (non-climbing) aquaintance who has died on the road. Maybe I'm lucky?

In reply to Jamie B:

sadly I think I agree 3 climbing friend fatalities everyone else in peer group still alive. 1 was a slip on moderate ground head injury. the other 2 disappeared on one of na nastier unclimbed n faces...

I maybe kidding myself but I try hard to minimise my driving while knackered my wife and I pretty short of no claims discounts still.

In reply to Bulls Crack:


Thanks very much for info. I was totally unaware of this, and assured by the financial adviser that no company would go for something as risky as climbing/mountaineering. I shall have to have words with him!

In reply to Beardyman:

1. Don't ignore her concerns (or dismiss the concerns of her friends - she is already confiding in them and you risk driving her further in their direction) - climbing is of course dangerous, and your family is clearly reliant on you, which is a curse but also a blessing
2. Face up to the fact that life evolves; you can evolve and grow with it
3. Consider and discuss compromise - whether that's around the time you spend climbing, how often, what sort etc - but also what else you can do for her, it shouldn't just be about you
4. Consider building in other activities to supplement but hopefully not supplant your climbing

Good luck!

In reply to Beardyman:

Climbing just is not that dangerous.

It is unlucky to get hurt - of course.. but if you spend your life avoiding all perceivable risk it can only set a bad example. It is an advantage to grow up with parents who have not given up on actually doing things.

In reply to Beardyman:
Just get a divorce and marry a climber. That's what I did and when I dropped at her feet in a crumbled mess with 6 spinal fractures that put me out for 4 months. All she could say is 'when are we going climbing again?'.....that's what you want from a woman!

In reply to natetan:

Tell that to the more than 20 people I know, some close friends, who have been killed climbing. Over the years I have had a fractured skull, broken ribs, a broken arm and frostbite only one incident was down to my stupidity. I wish people would stop making blanket statements like this it's verging on offensive to people like me.

I agree it's less dangerous than it once was and some disciplines are more dangerous than others but you should make that clear before posting something that is just untrue. On a sliding scale of danger it probably goes something like this: Indoor bouldering, indoor sport climbing, outdoor bouldering, outdoor sport climbing, trad climbing, ice climbing, Alpine climbing, climbing in the greater ranges. The harder you push it the more dangerous it becomes at each discipline but to say climbing is not dangerous is irresponsible and just plain wrong.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Agreed!

The usual bull about 'driving to the crag is more dangerous' is annoying too. In 50 years I don't know any one who died in a traffic accident but have lost count of those who died climbing.

Chris

In reply to GridNorth:

Yeah I would agree climbing is certainly dangerous on the overall scale of things. I've a couple of friends who have died, although one was in Scotland during winter and one was in the greater ranges. Both were soloing. I've had some close calls myself and also frostbite. The unknowns obviously become bigger and harder to manage with more commiting styles of climbing. I think at the other end of the scale the risks and dangers are definately a lot more managable if some basic limits are set. Even with trad I would say it's possible to stay reasonably safe if competent with gear and route choice. Eg avoiding poorly protected, loose, difficult to escape routes, routes with bad landings, and so on. It's also possible to move the focus from onsigthing to redpointing. It could even be something harder but well protected to maintain the interest.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

About the opposite for me, lost more of my climbing friends to car accidents (tired night drive back from the Alps) than through actual climbing.

CB

In reply to Beardyman:



Sounds reasonable to me. It's not like any of us *want* to injure ourselves but there's pretty slim danger attached to what you've been doing. You've scaled back what you're doing and it'd be nice if you could convince your wife the same.

I had a pretty decent break from climbing with a young family (more about time than perceived danger) and coming back have more of an appreciation of what our loved ones worry about. Even bouldering that pad can look pretty small and thin from up above, what with creaky knees and all. Frig knows what protection we thought a bit of old carpet used to give

In reply to cb294:

I'd hazard a guess that a large proportion of car crashes that climbers have probably relate to the climbing (exhaustion, tiredness, etc).

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I'm only guessing, but if being out of work for 4 months put enormous financial strain on the family, then the monthly cost of insurance (if admitting to recent accident etc.) might not be much of an inducement for the wife to accept the continued climbing if it has a meaningful impact to the family budget.

In reply to Beardyman:

Sorry to hear about your injury, glad to hear it is getting better .

My feel about risk is that bouldering caries a higher risk of injury, but a lower risk of death than sport/trad e.g bouldering has more frequent accidents but with much less overall force. I am happy bouldering because my wife earns about the same as me, I could work from home if needed, and I would get good sick pay. If I was self employed, the primary earner, and needed to stay fit it might change things for me. I can see why your wife is concerned. You can minimise the risk with spotters/pads/easy problems/experience, but never remove it?

I guess the risk should be placed with the context of other risks. Others have mentioned car journeys, but for me it would be mountain biking. I often go out on my own for a couple of hours, but know plenty of friends that have broken wrists/arms/collar bones/ribs, and one that compressed his spine and couldn't walk for a year. I feel fairly safe because I have only 2 small accidents (5 stitches each time) in 25 years, going out about twice a week, but the risks are real.

The other risk is inactivity. If you are not getting 150 minutes/week of good exercise (cardio or weight baring) then you are putting yourself at real risk of a shortened life.

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/fitness/Pages/physical-activity-guidelines-for-a...

Does your wife get her 150 minutes? If she doesn't then she is putting herself at risk?

For me, climbing and mountain biking provide the motivation to exercise. They get me up at 7am on a wet cold Saturday morning to go biking, or up at 5am to do a winter day trip bouldering in Portland. Overall I believe I will extend my life expectancy doing them.

As they say in scrubs, "everything we do here is a stall". We all die eventually, and everything caries risk. I am prepared to take some small risk doing exercise that should give me maybe 10 more good years in my retirement, and be a lot of fun at the time as well. I would struggle to replace climbing or biking in my life.

Good luck with the discussions!

Rob

P.S. You want to see real risk then look a cave diving or getting down from Everest?

In reply to Beardyman:

Sitting here with my leg in plaster after an injury caused back in June falling off The Old Man of Hoy I cannot believe some of the stuff that has been written here. We have become almost a totally risk averse society as it is. There are health and safety rules for almost everything to protect ourselves against ourselves and I have seen several times over the years suggestions that people going off sick because of an injury caused by a dangerous pastime should not be paid sick pay. And yet our society would not be at the advanced stage that it is if people hadn't taken risks over the years. Explorers such as Cook, Livingstone, Drake took appalling risks to expand the boundaries and if Nelson hadn't taken great risks resulting in losing his own life we would all be speaking fluent French now (perish the thought!) Conversely, if our spitfire pilots hadn't also taken colossal risks we'd all be now speaking fluent German! Paradoxically these people were all feted as national heroes by the mass of stay at home couch potatoes that would never have dreamt of getting off their backsides to do anything.

My point is that there will always be people in society willing to push the envelope, but nowadays they need to do things like climbing. horse riding, kayaking, skiing et all because there aren't the opportunities for all that medieval swashbuckling. Most 'real' climbers that I have known have always been fairly driven people that have to do something like this. Certainly, for myself, if I hadn't taken up climbing I would have done something else risky and I have indulged in white water kayaking, riding fast bikes and mountain biking. I'd just die of boredom if I didn't just as I am climbing up the walls at the moment with no prospect of even walking to the crag, let alone climbing, for at least another two months. The scenario under discussion here is typical. Not least of all because this sort of behaviour has always been a traditionally male attribute, although I remember well how Alison Hargreaves was castigated in the press for leaving her small kids at home whilst she went off climbing, especially when she suffered the ultimate penalty. You stop a person that needs this buzz from doing it and you make them into a different person that resents the curtailment of something that gives them a purpose in life.

Off course, all these generalities don't help your case, but I can give you the benefit of my own experience. Firstly, don't give up doing what you love doing because of the whims of others. It will build up resentment that will be corrosive. A long time climbing partner of mine, with a wife and two kids, gave up climbing for fifteen years when faced with similar emotional blackmail. His wife then still divorced him a few years later anyway. I did comment that the time that I bet he wished he had carried on climbing! Most of my long time climbing partners have had long term relationship difficulties (and it doesn't even help marrying another climber). There are compromises to be made. I gave up Alpine climbing when I started a family and I curtailed my activities in other aspects of the sport. However, I still suffered a separation a few years ago being accused of "being obsessive about climbing". Nowadays, since we got back together and I have more time on my hands I try to climb predominantly midweek so that we can do other things at the weekend. Touch wood it has worked so far.

I hope that you work out your problems, but don't give it up. The alternative could be worse.

In reply to Beardyman:
When I screwed up my ankle bouldering, I made a comment to a GP about selfish climbers taking up NHS time and costs. I was partly joking, but he replied that he far rather see me for a climbing injury than the problems I'd have if I wasn't healthy and active.

Giving up something you love to please your wife isn't going to make for a healthy relationship. All forms of climbing have risk attached to them, but most of my injuries have been from climbing indoors, and the most serious accident I've been involved in was indoors. Generally speaking though, trad climbing within your comfort zone on decent rock is not significantly more dangerous. Start soloing the Indian Face, and that's a different matter. I think you need to have a chat with her about what you do to minimise the risks without scaring her.

In reply to GridNorth:

I'm with you on this one Al.

I've lost 12 close friends/climbing partners over the years in the moutains - and you can double that number if you include people I knew through the climbing scene in general - yet with the exception of Al Harris (always an accident waiting to happen) I can't think of one climber I know who's been killed in a car accident?

In over 40 years of climbing I've had frostbite on more than one occasion - losing 2 toes on the last occasion on the Eiger - broken or fractured a number of bones, torn tendons and ligaments, and the number of cuts, gashes, bruises and abrasions are beyond mathematical calculation.

The simple facts are, that climbing IS inherently dangerous, and climbers ARE inherently selfish.

In reply to whenry:

Generally speaking though, trad climbing within your comfort zone on decent rock is not significantly more dangerous. Start soloing the Indian Face, and that's a different matter.

I think A&E departments this year have possibly had more admissions of people falling off V Diffs, than people falling off bold E9's?

In reply to Goucho:

That's true, and most accidents happen to people climbing HVS and below, but the OP's profile says he climbs up to E3 - Vdiffs should be will within his comfort zone. I think it's fair to say, though, that you and Al have both pushed yourselves harder than the average punter and suspect you have friends who have done the same.

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Unfortunately it isn't very well-referenced (or at least, I've not been able to track down in which link they reference the UK stats are hidden), but http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/risk/sports.html has some comparisons. Its not entirely clear without the backing data but it suggests its ranked as risk of mortality per climb; I don't therefore know what they are using as their comparable "deaths per x" measure when they rank automobiles far far higher at the bottom.

Perhaps to put into context the points of some of those posters who have friends engaged in more serious mountaineering, the piece here http://www.scancrit.com/2012/03/16/extreme-sports-risk-micromorts/ does suggest that greater ranges mountaineering is far more risky than driving, as you might expect.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-dangerous-are-climbing-and-hill-walking also has a few references although I've not checked them out in any detail. It does suggest that the mountain rescue haven't reported any deaths in the years they mention from climbing, although the most risky forms of UK climbing are probably winter where the line between a winter hillwalker and a mountaineer/climber are more blurred.

I think the other thing of note is that within climbing the degrees of separation is probably quite low - whilst you, Goucho and Gridnorth all claim to know many people who have died climbing the likelihood is that as keen climbers of long standing there is probably significant overlap in your lists.

Edit: One thing I did find also was a wikipedia stat suggesting road deaths in the UK were about 3.5 per hundred thousand. Given the number of people who are climbers if it was equivalent level of risk you might expect a handful of deaths a year.
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/participation-in-climbing-mountaineering suggests about 200k climbers and walkers which would mean single figures deaths per year would be roughly comparable (you'd have to weigh into the stats to determine confidence intervals and all that).
I don't know whether the majority of climbing/walking deaths would actually be from the walkers, but my gut feel is that rock climbing deaths in the uk are relatively rare; so much so that they usually each get a mention somewhere on the ukc forums.

In reply to Goucho:
There a limited number of climbers in the UK and therefore many of them know each other. Climbers will therefore know a disproportionatly high number of people who have had climbing accidents.
Could this explain why it appears that more people die in climbing accidents than road accidents?
Fwiw I personally have known noone who has died climbing (thankfully) but 4 people who died in a (single) car accident.

In reply to Beardyman:



Without further detail (you're not obliged to give) - if you had your accident bouldering then I think your course of action v reasonable. I have had several accidents when un-roped (walls, bouldering - when its 'not serious') but nothing in the same league when roped up and paying due attention. What I would not accept as reasonable is that you've quit leading - which on bolts is prob as safe as top-rope. What I'm getting at is - analyse the accident and lay blame where its due - and strike off at an appropriate tangent. Inform your family how you came to this decision.

I suspect you've done this but as I'm not savvy to all the gen it doesn't quite add up. NB. I'm speaking from a parallel but slightly divergent line - because I had a serious accident and rationalised my way forward - to satisfaction of those around me. Further - if you do have a child - perhaps they need recreation - and must be taught how to do it safely.

In reply to ceri:



There is some truth in this; most of my close friends are/have been climbers, and those who died would have been known to other climbers. But the car accident stat also includes all the non-climbers I have been acquainted with, mainly through work and that is quite a big circle.

Having said that the majority of climbing fatalities were soloing, winter climbing, Alps and Greater Ranges so maybe trad and sport climbing are 'relatively' safe!

Chris

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

I don't think that makes sense. The whole point of insurance is paying a little often in case you need to get a lot back. And surely the more strain a lack of finance puts on you, the more important it is to avoid that possibility.

In reply to The Ex-Engineer: I've done a lot of deep technical wreck diving (trimix, rebreathers, etc) , bike racing, etc. I don't have kids, and I cant imagine doing 100m + diving if I did.

In reply to GridNorth:
Sorry to offend you by saying climbing is not super dooper dangerous - but I didn't say it was 'not dangerous' - there is of course constant inherent risk.. actually I said its not 'that dangerous'. And, apart from frostbite, the rest of your injuries could easily have been picked up while playing football for the same duration. And lets face it, climbing is a sport where you can practically choose your risk level.

Considering the OP (seemingly) mostly does bouldering with I guess a bit of trad (?) the alpine/greater ranges stuff I suspect does not really apply. So, in the context of his question, I think my statement is fine. (I know, strange to give a relevant reply on this forum instead of an ego-based pissing match of how much of a dangerous badass with a sickter rating one billion that you are).

If it helps; perhaps see this comment as 'bouldering, sport and trad is not *that* dangerous'

And anyway, if you look at alpine/greater range stuff, if you compare to BASE for example; even with the inherent risk of being crushed by a serac, its still not thaaat dangerous if you are doing it sensibly. I am pretty sure stats would back this up.

Cars are safer?! Saying you know more people who have died climbing compared with car accidents - I suspect you *might* just have some information/data bias here.. no doubt knowing many, many climbers but probably an average number of people who drive cars.

Some examples..
- The lifetime risk of dying in a transport accident is remarkably high - with most of the risk coming from road traffic accidents. While the risk of dying in a road accident in any year in the UK approaches 1 in 20,000, the lifetime risk is 1 in 240 (http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Risk/trasnsportpop.html)
- According to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (ROSPA), you are far more likely to be injured playing sports like football and cricket than hill walking or rock climbing. ROSPA reports 1,000 accidents per 100m hours for walking and 4,000 for rock climbing. Cycling scores 7,000 and horse riding 10,000. (BMC)

In reply to Chris Craggs:

It's always nice to relax and unwind on the crag after being driven there by mrs Num Num.

In reply to LeeWood:


That is not at all true. Have you climbed on some of the spaced bolts at Portland? There is often a real risk of taking a long fall and hitting something. When I was last on Kalymnos someone we met had a very bad accident hitting a ledge and the bolting there is very good. On my recent little slip on the crux of the Old Man of Hoy there were two stuck Friends about level with my knees so as good as a bolt. With slack in the system from the traverse I went about 20 feet when I slipped off swinging back into the rock and causing the damage which now has me in plaster

In reply to LeeWood:


Um - no. Fairly safe, all things considered. As safe as top-roping? Hardly.
Things that can go wrong leading that are unlikely whilst top-roping:

- decking out by falling before clipping first QD
- decking out by falling close to second QD without having clipped it
- on some routes decking out by falling close to third QD without having clipped it
- falling and getting inverted and hitting head
- falling and hitting ledge or other protruding rock feature
- falling and failing to absorb impact through legs properly leading to leg, feet, and other injuries
- falling decking out due to QD falure
- falling and decking out due to rope unclipping from QD
- falling and decking out due to QDs improperly assembled
- falling and decking out due to demands on belayer that don't exist top-roping
- falling and decking out due to harness, rope, or other equipment failure because of higher forces involved

I'm sure that there are others I've missed. They all occur infrequently, but do occur. I've had 4 happen to me over the last few years.

In fact, thinking about it, I've had proportionally more close calls from sport leading than trad - mostly because I push myself a lot harder on sport. Trad I mostly bimble around well within my comfort zone.

In reply to Willi Crater:


Maybe the risks partly relate to how you mentally approach sport climbing then? Some of the items on the list that you have assembled are also perfectly avoidable with some basic gear inspection and route planning. Some strike me as irrational fears, assuming this is a serious list. Use a clipstick worried about the first bolt (or even the second bolt), avoid routes with spaced bolts, don't commit to moves that you don't feel comfortable making, check one another's gear in advance. At the end of the day you can always just retreat from midway up a sport route without too much difficulty. I'm not saying sport climbing is 'safe' but you are certainly a lot more in control of the decision making.

All these 'risks' also need to be put in perspective. Most climbers I know are a pretty fit and healthy bunch compared to the general population, which over a course of a lifetime can only be of benefit.

In reply to Beardyman:
Keep on doing the things you love to do. I didn't quit climbing after a pretty severe arm injury back in June. People will tell you your wrong to go back but it's your decision. The only thing that should make you stop is something that would make you equally passionate.

In reply to Willi Crater:

You have decked out 4 times in the past few years?! I'd invest in a clip stick!!

In reply to Willi Crater:

Well done for that comprehensive list. The point I would care to make is that a lot of our accidents occur when it seems there is no risk. When top-roping injury may still happen nr the ground or a ledge due to rope-stretch - there is a lot of rope available in such circumstances. I have witnessed this. Also close to vertical features when there is some traverse component. Otherwise due to belayer inattention close to landing. The equipment failures you name are in a different category.

When we *know* there is a greater risk we pay more attention - this is the real weakness whether on lead or topo-rope - you acknowledge in ref to trad v sport.

In reply to Beardyman:

One point which I touched on briefly in my earlier post is unless they are lucky enough to live in a climbing area, how do people find the time to go climbing when they are bringing up a young family? Particularly if they at at work 5 or sometimes 6 days a week. That means that the only chance for quality time with your children is going to be evenings and weekends. Holidays will be taken up with family, so again when do you go climbing?

OK you might slip away for an occasional evening at an indoor climbing gym or to the crags if they are close, but surely the opportunities are going to be reduced compared to those of a single person and consequently the level of ability and training will decrease. And thinking of this "away" time presumably your partner will also need a similar amount, which means that already limited time to pursue ones own sport/interests will be even more limited?

Bringing up a family is a full time commitment by both partners, so I ask those of you who are suggesting that you should and do carry on with our sport, how the hell do you manage it, give your partner and kids a good degree of love and attention yet still maintain a reasonable level of climbing competence?

Ditch her? Once a partner starts to wine about another climbing there's not going to be an end to it. Just a slow painful brain eating for the rest of the life..

In reply to Beardyman:

A few stories on here about people being off work due to various injuries but let's put this in perspective. Compare this to the general population. It's a lot easier to quantify the risk of injury from climbing based on the rate of accidents than it is to measure the impacts from general lack of exercise, poor diet, obesity, working excessively long hours, stress, etc. I'd make an educated guess that there are proportionally a lot more people off for these types of reasons than due to climbing injuries.

Something also worth saying is that I would have loved to have had a father who was into climbing or something equally adventurous. Rather than just working and going to the pub, which wasn't quite as inspiring (or as healthy). Surely there is a greater rate of sports participation amongst kids with active parents?

As noted on another thread, it is actually quite hard to find a sport that is without risk. At least sport/tradclimbing injuries more often relate to one's own actions, rather than someone elses, so possible to alter the risks based on personal choices and actions. Compare this to football or rugby where there is little that can be done to avoid a bad tackle.

In reply to Trangia: Well I was lucky enough to live in a climbing area but you raise a very good point. I have in the past on several occasion stopped climbing for periods of years as I'd rather not do it than do it badly. You need to find an activity that fits in with your lifestyle and location. If you live in SE England then disappearing every other weekend and two nights a week is a big ask

So I would ask the OP to honestly think about what is the problem here. Is it the time, is it really the risk of injury and loss? If you were to do as the wife suggests what are you going to do instead? Is it really going to make you happy? I would suggest there is little point in giving up climbing and taking up mtn biking as an example - if anything it is a lot more expensive , time consuming and you'lll get injured a lot. If her suggestion is to watch TV and do DIY you have a big problem (and I know!)

The discussion of relative danger above is rather odd - I don't many people who've been killed at Stanage - what happens in the alps, greater ranges is not very relevant to sport climbing, and a lot of the list of possible lethal dangers of sports climbing are not very realistic. I also don't think it's really relevant to the OP's problem.

Find out ,in full, what the wife wants you to do, but making it clear just stopping stuff isn't much of a plan.

In reply to Trangia:


Everyone's lives are different. Out of all the climbing partners I've had, many have had kids and pretty much stopped climbing. Others have had kids and kept up and got better. Just depends how they prioritise and organise their lives - I don't think the ones who've kept climbing are bad parents, they just plan and organise their lives with their families to fit it in because it's important to them and the set-up (e.g. partner's work/life) allows it.

In reply to Beardyman:





If you're going to carry on climbing, then the least you can do is ensure your family are safeguarded financially should another accident occur.

Putting your family through the emotional consequences (your wife's reaction could be because she loves you a lot and doesn't want to lose you?) is one thing, but there's no excuse for inflicting financial hardship on them in pursuit of what at the end of the day, is just a hobby.

And one other important thing, don't take advice on relationships from terminally single climbers. The nature of their advice is usually the reason they are terminally single

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I'm a bit old fashioned Jon. For me, when you have kids, your life changes and your kids have to become your priority.

If you don't want to make those changes and sacrifices, then don't have kids.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I haven't read all the posts so apologies if some of this has already been mentioned by others. When we got married my wife knew that I climbed and that I wasn't going to give it up. So I think it's important to establish what's important to you before with your partner making that commitment. As it happens my climbing has dropped almost to zero. A combination of moving to an area 2hrs from any decent rock, having three children and developing a business meant there wasn't enough time.

However, I still do the odd climb. This is mostly solo, as there are no regular partners near to me. I stick to long mountain routes in N Wales, almost always one I have done many time before e.g. Amphitheatre Buttress. Sometimes the children come with me. I also go on solo backpacking trips of 2-3 days. I always used to particularly like Winter climbing, but weekend trips up to Scotland an no longer practical. In the last big freeze I did dig out my old Koflachs and do several routes in Wales.

Cycling has replaced climbing as my main activity. I live out in the countryside, so can do many different interesting routes straight from the back door. I currently get out on the bike 4-5 days per week.

I am self employed. Should anything happen to me my wife (and in a couple of years the children) would have to take over the business. I work in statistically the most dangerous industry in the UK (farming). Although it's difficult to quantify the additional risks of climbing and cycling. Not being able to do either would seriously affect my mental well being and probably physical fitness, which might lead to other risks like diabetes.

In reply to Goucho:


Don't worry, I won't!

Really though, I don't think it's fair to pass judgement on the way other people run their lives without knowing them. Many parents have jobs that take up way more than a standard 40h week or involve trips away and still manage a good family life - that extra time might be your climbing time. If I knew that my climbing mates' wives were unhappy and that they didn't spend much time with their kids, I guess I'd judge them for it - but that doesn't seem to me to be the case.

In reply to Jon Stewart:



I was just stating my personal viewpoint, not passing judgement - of course it's horses for courses.

In reply to natetan:

As others have said minor injuries are far more common in other activities, indeed I have had more injuries in a very short (5 years) Mountain Biking career than I have had climbing. It's the often rolled out statement that the driving is more dangerous than the climbing that I don't agree with. My experience, with the emphasis on the "my", is the opposite and by the way I know far more people who drive than climb.

Al

In reply to Beardyman:

In all the sports I've engaged in, Motorbike racing had the highest attrition rate. I lost too many friends from that, and collected some impressive injuries too. Climbing death/injuries runs to about 50% of racing. I've also lost enough friends or acquaintances in RTAs. However, I have always had support from close people in my life with the things I do (although sometimes it has been a little begrudging!) as these things are what makes me who I am. In time I have calmed down a little, but I'm not going to stop. I was climbing in China when I found out I was going to be a dad, I have many happy memories of soloing since then, and I'm about to go out now (check out the weather!) to go climbing again.

Yes, I have calmed down over the years, but life is for living. I don't want the inevitable toxic ball of regret in the pit of my stomach in later years that says "I wish I had....". People close to me recognise this, and to impose rules on me that would effectively put me in a straight jacket would not be good for my mental health and absolutely change the core of who I am. I will and do change in my own good time!

In reply to Beardyman:

http://www.summitpost.org/mountaineering-accident-statistics/658474

This link has some good stuff relating to various discussions here (including risk of driving vs climbing). I think if you enjoy your climbing and remain focussed and are away from objective dangers (that you cannot control), climbing is remarkably low risk compared to most sports and moving to a seemingly safer form of climbing might not mitigate risk much if you lose the keeness and focus. Indoor climbing is certainly far from risk free, especially bouldering... its rare I go a month without seeing a bad sprain or break, despite modern thick bouldering mats.

My other views are:

It seems odd but its not unsurprising that people get in this position; climbing is dangerous and the discussions around what to do with this should be clear and longstanding in any healthy relationship, yet I'm yet to come across a climber who was both completely level headed about risk in a way that matches the research and also never had an emotional response to an accident.

However ill informed her friends are, they are her friends... again in a healthy relationship she should be pushing your side of the case.

In reply to Goucho:


You're confusing love with insecurity. Real love considers the needs of the other and gives the freedom to do.

In reply to maybe_si:


No - I 've decked out once (hold broke just as I was about to clip first runner). The other 3 fall into the non decking out categories in my list. I do use a clipstick if I think there's significant risk; in this case I was obviously wrong.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Who said I was afraid? Which bits of the list can be construed as not a serious (if small) risk?

[Edit] Mean serious in the sense you're using it, not in the climbing sense of the word.

In reply to LeeWood:


Spoken like a man who's either single or who's partner is also a climber?

In reply to Chris Craggs and Grid North

Population deaths from RTAs are way higher than climbing deaths, so any of us in our later years with normal circles of friends and family should have known at least of the order of tens of such victims. I can believe the number of those you know from the latter but either you are extremely rare from a probability sense or something else is going on about you not ' knowing' so many victims of RTA's. I know many many more RTA victims but being a climber I have to think a lot harder to recall them than the climbers I knew who died climbing. This is particularly the case thinking back to those I knew not so well who had fatal bike accidents as teenagers compared to climbers who died whom I didn't know so well.

Deaths from the long term results of lack of exercise of course beat all these other possible causes except maybe the most extreme high risk forms of climbing (or in Al Harris's case high risk driving etc). That kills at least as many as one in ten and in some cultures as many as one in three prematurely.

In reply to GridNorth:

While I'd probably agree with your sliding scale of risk in principle, of course 'Trad Climbing' has a huge spread from splitter cracks takings as much gear as you can carry through to say, The Indian Face. Most trad climbing I see actually being done is no more dangerous than sport climbing (possibly safer in that gaps between gear are often smaller than between bolts), so going back to the OP's original problem, he should maybe take the wife to view a manly battle with a suitable crack climb and a double set of cams (where the risk of a hernia is probably greater...)

The two climbing friends I've known who were killed were Alpine climbing and scrambling.

In reply to LeeWood:


And one of the needs that should be considered is her need for security in the form of a husband that she knows* is coming home

In reply to Offwidth:

has car safety has significant impact in rta fatality rates? spoke to guy who drove his subaru into a tree at significant speed and apart from not remembering it no harm done.

Though I guess well executed trad and sport climbing is safer too. Good weather forecasts should have made climbing big mountains a bit safer too? folk don't get stormed on the eiger much it seems.

In reply to balmybaldwin:

I'm not sure she should demand that.

Mr Marsbar and I were early on the scene of a nasty car/motorbike accident (on the way home from an injury free mountain biking and climbing weekend as it happens.

We watched the biker die from his injuries. Nothing anyone could have done for him. Did what we could for the others.

Would I stop my husband from going on his motorbike? No. Will I worry about him, yes, but that doesn't mean I get to take his choices away.

In reply to Willi Crater:


Quickdraw or harness failure for example. You're never going to generate enough force from a sport climbing fall to cause failure. Maybe you're referring to improper QD construction or harness fastening. I'd say the problem lies with the person and not sport climbing if they can't fasten a harness. Driving also becomes a lot more dangerous if you don't fasten a seat belt.

In reply to marsbar:

I was commenting on the basis that if real love is considering the need of others then it goes both ways

In reply to alasdair19:

RTA's to me include more than just cars...Lots of stuff here for the UK:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/road-accidents-and-safety-statist...

eg this recent summary:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/3...

More objectively serious areas get proportional way more climbing fatalities (pretty much any long-standing climber will know many who have died in the Alps or Greater ranges but very few on trad UK rock). For the Eiger north face I suspect some risk reduction is due to the more sensible modern fashion for attempts in winter.

Rock and Ice do an accident summary and sport, indoors and outdoors (failed bolts...belay devices or inattention) figure more largely than most would expect. Rapping accidents are way too common as well.

http://www.rockandice.com/Default.aspx?PageID=13029299&A=WebApp&CCI...

In reply to Mr. Lee:


There's at least one high profile case of a death due to harness failure whilst abseiling, which I imagine typically generates less force than a sport climbing fall.


I had that as a separate item.


Never made any reference to this in my list as it applies to top-roping as much as leading, so not sure why you mention it.

The post I was replying to suggested that sports lead climbing is as safe as top-roping. I provided a list of low level risks associated with sports climbing that aren't present in top-roping to counter this. Not really interested in having an online barny about this. You have your opinion and I have mine.

In reply to Offwidth:
Unfortunately, the only predictable aspect of climbing accidents, is that they are unpredictable.

I've taken a 60 footer onto a marginal wire which shouldn't have held, but did, and a 15 footer onto a solid looking and substantial in situ peg, which ripped.

I've fallen 20 foot off a grit highball (no mat) with not so much as a bruise, and 6 feet off a boulder problem and broken my ankle.

No matter how good or experienced you are, or how safe you play it, you just never know when something's going to go wrong - until it does.

In reply to Offwidth:

The Summitpost link is interesting, although I've found a few obvious flaws. It looks at average traffic deaths between 1951 and 2006 as I understand it but the mountaineering accidents are based on 2013 stats. US traffic deaths for for 2013 were 32,000 (rate has been declining over the years):

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/812024.pdf

28% of accidents were speed related. The equivalent 2014 document states 30% were alcohol related. I can't see how many of these deaths were people not drinking/speeding. What's the total number of fatalities for people driving at sensible speeds who are not intoxicated?

Also, I can't see where the AAC statistics have been sourced. I found the original doc.

http://aac-publications.s3.amazonaws.com/anam-13201213205-1433425689.pdf

Only 100 injuries in 2013 across the whole of the US seems suspiciously low.

I've not had much to do at work today in case it's not obvious...

In reply to balmybaldwin:

True. Difficult to get the balance sometimes.

In reply to Beardyman: Potentially anytihng can kill you.

I've seen two planes crash with fatalities and seen the consequences of a few more. I've watched someone die after massive heart failure during a discussion at work. But I'm not stopping flying or working. , I' have, fortunately, yet to see , in getting on for 30 years of climbing, anyone actually die. A lot of the earlier sport climbing risks are pretty negligible in my opinion,

Arguing about risk levels with the wife is not likely to be helpful. Perception is more important than any reality here

In reply to Beardyman:

What does climbing mean to you? Why is it important and what do you gain from it? Try and explain this to your wife. It's easy when you don't understand something to write it off as silly.

Of course she's worried but remember we are talking about a broken leg here. You could have fallen down the stairs and suffered the same financial hardship. Look into accident insurance (as mentioned above) and stay away from high risk areas of the sport.

Take some time to explain how exactly you've minimised your risks, take her to an inside wall. Letting her see 4 year olds safely enjoying a rewarding sport may change her perceptions of climbing.

My best friend died 8th April 2010 aged 31, following a spontaneous and severe brain haemorrhage, no warning, no high risk factors. Life is for living.

In reply to Offwidth:


They are also way higher than for base jumping, Russian Roulette etc etc. Proportionally, however?

In reply to Offwidth:

>... again in a healthy relationship she should be pushing your side of the case.

I don't think one can accurately say things like that, personally. If I think about couples I know, quite a few people in long term and happy relationships will grumble to their friends about their partner now and then.

In reply to balmybaldwin:


of course - if he hasn't crashed on return from the supermarket

In reply to Beardyman:

Last year I fell 3feet at the local bouldering wall, the result of my foot jamming in a jug on the way down was, torn ligaments and fractures. It was surgery and 4months before I was back at work. Luckily though I get decent sick pay. It was a frustrating summer not being as active as usual but it also meant I got a summer at home with my daughter

Yes my parents worried and couldn't understand why I'd go back to climbing, but they do understand that it's something I absolutely love and I need to be able to do the things that make me me. Last week I booked my first sports climbing trip abroad. First thing mum said was that she was 'that's fantastic, I'm really pleased for you, just be careful'. It's wonderful to have that support.


Saying all that mum fell badly at work the other week to, nearly replicated my injuries. Only difference is she's possibly too old to operate on so they're waiting to see how she gets on without it. Now a running joke that she can't shout at me for climbing being dangerous if she can't from one end of a room to the other safely!

In reply to Mr. Lee:

The main site I use to illustrate the issues is this:

http://www.friendsofyosar.org/safety/climbingSafety.html

The same messages come up again and again. Climbing accidents that are not due to objective issues occur way more than they should when focus drifts through fatigue or being on easy terrain. Those leading hard stuff seem to have much lower accident rates than we might expect.

In reply to Timmd:

I disagree.. friends are a place you can moan about your partner but not a place you can accuse them of being irresponsible (unless they probaly are and you need help).

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I was replying to the fact they they said they have known way more climbers who have died climbing than those (not just climbers) who have died in RTAs... this is statistically very unlikely.

In reply to Offwidth:


So says you,


Chris

In reply to Goucho:

Its simply not that random (read those Yosemite pages) risk relates to psychology and other factors. The controlled risk from standard UK trad and bouldering is clearly lower than many other activities from accident analysis and we need to do something to stay fit and healthy.

All this "thinking of the children" you push to Jon is way over-blown ... sure its maybe wise to avoid higher risk games in climbing and to think about things like insurance if you are financially vulnerable but if you can enjoy trad climbing or bouldering carefully and with proper focus, accident rates on trad and bouldering are pretty low so there is no need to avoid them as a parent.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Basic math based on the data.

http://www.medicine.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Risk/trasnsportpop.html

If you know a few thousand people over your life of the order of ten on average will have died in an RTA

In reply to Beardyman:


I've not read the whole of this thread, so may well be repeating what others have said.

Realistically, you are far more likely to have a (relatively) minor injury - broken ankle / leg bouldering than you are on most trad routes - there's usually something more than a mat to stop you hitting the ground and sport climbing (provided you don't make a mistake) is usually fairly safe - biggest risk a tweaked finger!

So if injury is a real concern, give up bouldering!

In reply to Offwidth:


It depends who you know and which circles you move in. And everyone will differ in that respect.

But who knows who or overall figures, while interesting, will of course not clarify which is more risky than the other. To answer the latter it would surely require considering number of fatalities vs number of participants. There's also the time spent doing either activity

In reply to Trangia:

Some good questions there.

I generally work nights, I used to drop my wee one at school, drive to Northumberland, get 2-3 hours bouldering and get back for the school bell. I would do this once a week if there weather played ball. I very rarely go away for a full day out, let alone a weekend away!

Before being a father I used to do a lot of trad E4 single pitch and E2 multi pitch, I would often solo easier routes and had many weekend trips away. I cut back on all the dangerous stuff (or so I thought!) and concentrated on bouldering, both as it was safer AND that I could minimise the amount of time I was away from my family. Also many bouldering venues are great playgrounds for wee ones, as long as the weather is decent.

In reply to Beardyman:
Climbing IS selfish.
Loosing salary for four months is one of the "harmless" things your family can get from it.
And yes, everyone who does not share your passion will genuinely be shocked about your decision (I'm sure actually there were no any decision, you just even had no thoughts about stopping climbing).

You just should be honest with yourself it's selfish.

I'm in long period of disability now after bad fall and no doubt I'm going to climb again if I'll be able.

In reply to Goucho:


After my oldest brother was born my dad still managed to go cragging every Wednesday, and my parents would go to out to the Peak where he'd climb some easy routes for a bit while my mum pottered about nearby with my brother before them doing something together for the rest of the day, and fast forward 40 years a guy who works for my dad took his maternity leave to go sports climbing with his wife, and the pretty new born baby was 'cooed to' by whoever was belaying at the time.

People can manage to be loving parents and continue to climb, but it's probably work which has got in the way of climbing for my own dad, more so than family time, out of the three one of them had to go, what with getting up at 5am and flying abroad. It's probably possible to balance two of them okay, but all three rather less so.

In reply to Beardyman:
Given your level of experience and ability I think your safer option would be trad well inside your limit, with the old fashioned view that the leader doesn't fall.

Bouldering usually involves a lot of falling off, and (as you know) in Northumberland the drops can be substantial.....

Good luck, it's a tough balancing act.

Steve

In reply to Beardyman:

Get a nice desk job which you can do with broken legs. Try find some good insurance and stick to sport climbing or easier trad.