UKC

Would the flooding have been inevitable even with the Flooding Defence cuts in 2010 and later?


http://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2010/nov/24/flood-defence-cuts-...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12402284
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jan/07/england-floods-budget-cu...



In these days of austerity, we are all in it together, provided the effluent does not meet the affluent.

In reply to The Lemming:

Where do you spend on the defence though?
I live in Leeds and we have never had flooding like this and might never again.
York on the other hand floods regularly but it always has and though I have sympathy for those who are flooded part of me thinks if you move to an area with a history of flooding you need to deal with it.

I doubt anything will change because to use your quote the effluent is not hitting the affluent.
Look at 2010 (I think), Hull and York and Somerset were flooded but it was only national news with a cobra team set up when Henley was in danger.

In reply to The Lemming:

As an inhabitant of Hebden Bridge who's spent this morning shovelling silt in the town centre I can confirm that the flood defences installed since the last floods actually did a superb job of holding off the floods for most of December.

You really can't imagine how much rain has fallen here this month and it's a huge surprise that it took until Boxing Day for the defences to be breached.

Whether they could be improved further is another question but an eco activist suggested to me this morning that Yorkshire Water might have been unwise to discharge the excess water from six reservoirs into Hebden Water over Christmas.

In reply to The Lemming:
I guess it would have because in many cases the models used to predict flooding events have underestimated the flow rates, peak flows and heights of rivers meaning that many barriers are now too small. We need a complete overhaul of flood and land management.

In reply to Alan M:

An additional tax for all buildings on a flood plain which is used to fund flood defences. Also a small extra tax for anyone turning lawns / gardens into hard standing. Ditto for coastal defences. Then those paying the tax would directly benefit.

In reply to m0unt41n:
Maybe change to building regulations saying repairs to flood damage must upgrade flood resistance as much as practical rather than restore the home/business to a pristine but equally vulnerable state.

In reply to Dax H:


Maybe think prevention, rather than defence. Lots of trees further up the Aire Valley maybe? There is a large area of green field land (Greenhill as it happens) that nasty developers would like to build 440 homes on. Maybe planting 440 oak trees might be a better idea.

Further up the Aire Valley could also see more woodland. I've got a suspicion that it might cost less money than a load of man made barriers further downstream that just end up funnelling the water faster to flood even more people down stream.

Sorry Dax, but I spent all day sweeping the Bingley flood waters and silt (plus assorted shite) back in to the Aire knowing full well that it would be a problem somewhere else, but it made me feel that I had done my bit for my local community and it made them think that people cared about them.

In reply to elsewhere:
Many insurance companies are now taking this approach and will payout more if repairs add better flood resilience (and homeowners agree)... An example is fitting electric sockets /ring mains at waist height, higher damp proof course etc.

Seeing footage of some of these rivers in spate going through defended areas makes you realise that whilst there has been a lot of money spent protecting specific areas, the catchment areas as a whole are not being well managed.

I keep seeing footage of raving torrents contained by flood barriers, and other walls, accelerating water from one part of the catchment to the other. Again we are seeing the press whipping up support for dredging without understanding it can often make flash flooding much worse.

It's good to see the ea pushing for a new approach.

In reply to elsewhere:


I think it's the whole planning process. Maximum houses, minimum green spaces, lots of tarmac and paving draining rapidly into the river system etc.. All the valley bottoms from Blackburn to Doncaster are pretty much urban sprawl. The rivers run right through the heart of these towns, but are fed off bare fast draining moor land. It's not rocket science.

On top of this add warmer winters and even slightly warmer air, carries much larger volumes of moisture. Plus it's mild in the many parts of the USA, so these depression are being belt fed across, by the jet stream at the moment.

It wouldn't matter who was getting the aid budget, these floods would have happened anyway under the current circumstances. And there will be more. There is nothing to indicate otherwise.

In reply to The Lemming:

Another report today in the Guardian, basically confirming what we already know, that the deforestation of the catchment areas through poor land management and subsidy is the biggest factor in flooding. The stripping of the hill side and logging operation above the A591 Keswick/Ambleside road was obviously going to cause a problem when the rains came, perhaps the landowners should be paying for the repairs and handing out compensation to those affected.
Not having seen what happened in Braithwaite I can only assume that something similar has occurred.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/13/flooding-public-spendi...

In reply to The Lemming:
Difficult. Do you protect London which is the economic powerhouse of the country or other areas? Where exactly do you spend the money?

Round where I live/work Warrington and Congleton there have been big efforts. £27 million spent on a flood defence scheme for the River Mersey protecting some 3-4,000 houses completed last year( this in an area which has not seen any floods recently but is clearly classified as high risk).My business in Congleton is in a flood area ( River Dane) which has been flooded in the past, last serious time 16 years ago. Credit to the Environment Agency they have sent me information about what to do ( targeted mailshot to everybody)and how best to protect industrial property. I am also on a 24 hour flood alert scheme which is tested.It really is upto me as a business owner to act and to have have a contingency plan in place and to examine how to protect the buildings.I know most of the business owners around me have ignored this and in all honesty that is really their issue/fault.

I suspect alot of houses in flood areas have not signed upto the Environment Agencys flood alert scheme. As a start that should be made compulsory for those in Flood Zones.

In reply to paulh.0776:

Those forests were or are spruce, they pass their peak at 80 or so years, so a progress fill and plant scheme would have no major impact. As a percentage of the catchment they would not matter that much either.

The problem is increased rainfall, reforesting is certainly a major part of the solution.

Also accepting climate is changing would help many people.

In reply to paulh.0776:

What a compelling piece of writing. Thanks for the link.

In reply to BnB:

We also have out upland catchment management to consider. The grouse moors didn't cause the flood but their current management did not help at all and the fact that we, the tax-payer, are paying £2.5 million to the landowner to basically preserve the status quo is arguably scandalous.

We could probably do with more trees too around the fringes of the moors - but that would need flexibility in our conservation objectives and duties plus effective incentives/new statutory requirements

In reply to The Lemming:

the cuts in emergency services will bit the conservatives in the arse.

a lot of the media seem like they have been told to call them 'rescuers' .it has been organised and majority or the work has been done by the fire service.
seeing has cameron wants to chop the fire service he seems very reluctant to thank them for the hard work they have done

In reply to mark s:

I'm guessing that if they only applauded the Fire Service (who have been very prevalent on our local news) they would miss out all the MRT folk who have also been doing sterling work plus the Army plus other volunteer agencies etc.

"Rescuers" is an easy catch all for the media not to upset anyone

In reply to The Lemming:

An economists view on the flooding.

http://bit.ly/1PwPGdK

In reply to The Lemming:

For every complex problem, there is a simple solution and it is usually wrong.

Flooding is a complex problem but there is a tendency for the media and public to find a "bad boy" and put the blame there. Grouse moors, not enough trees, government, farming, budget cuts, building on flood plains etc. etc. Combinations of many things and probably different in different watersheds.

In the end, it's been bloody wet, every single house built in the UK adds to the problem (population) and we may simply have to live it.

In reply to Moley:

Dear god. Its like you read the articles rather than jumped to a kneejerk conclusion. Logic would tend to suggest that even if something is only partially responsible its worth reviewing whether it is best to take action. Particularly in those cases where we may actually be paying people to make things worse.
The only people who seem to be suggesting a simple solution are those who shout about dredging DREDGING, DREDGING!! at every opportunity.

In reply to KevinD:

Agreed about dredging, the old water boards did that a lot in the 60s, I remember well the decimation they caused to rivers and their environment.
I guess someone thought it a good idea at the time, shows how wrong scientists and assorted experts can be - but we tend to find out in retrospect!

In reply to mark s:




If after the big fire service strike, they hadn't had reform forced on them, with a much more diverse range of skills like, water or steep ground related, the fire service would have be literally out of their depth this month. They have little to moan about.

The forces should be moaning, always the first to lose holidays and no overtime pay etc.. unlike police, fire, ambulance... Glad the mrts are getting some praise though.

In reply to KevinD:

Integrated watershed management plans - as required by the EU Water framework directive - and now being panned for limiting dredging!

In reply to The Lemming:

Dredging simply can't be the answer, if water has reach a river, it is too late. Plus many of the floods are on very small rivers and streams that are near impossible to dredge and the loss of habitat in doing so would be dreadful.

In reply to Moley:


Like most things it has its time and place. Problem is the people yelling for it as the single solution seem to being listened to.
Admittedly they can be sort of right. Dredging might help their bit of land but just bugger the town downstream.