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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35211294
Never thought we'd see this. I wonder how this will play out? From what I understand the next President can easily repeal any changes to law, so I also wonder what effect this will have on the election coming up.
Never thought we'd see this. I wonder how this will play out? From what I understand the next President can easily repeal any changes to law, so I also wonder what effect this will have on the election coming up.
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
do we know what he's doing yet?
If he's just closing loop holes many support this, even republicans.
This is why I like him. He does what is common sense, like gay/trans rights, people oppose it.. He says no we're doing it...
People then calm down and agree with what he did.
Here's his history
http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/211303-obamas-key-executive-act...
do we know what he's doing yet?
If he's just closing loop holes many support this, even republicans.
This is why I like him. He does what is common sense, like gay/trans rights, people oppose it.. He says no we're doing it...
People then calm down and agree with what he did.
Here's his history
http://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/211303-obamas-key-executive-act...
Post edited at 03:13
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
To me, the things he is proposing all make sense. What doesnt is the average americans reaction to it. Its like a child being told its not allowed its toys when its toy is an automatic weapon.
I have a lot of family over in the states and i see a lot of things pop up on my facebook feed, most of it completely over the top, short sighted or just plain moronic.
- ''it's all part of his evil plans to control the citizens of this country.....and if people don't wake up and stand up and fight.....he will succeed.'' - thats great aunt karen. She's in her 70's bless her gun slingin' heart.
- ''the next step will be to have everyone who hasn't done so already, register their guns - watch.'' Thats uncle johh, he is a driver for an ammunition manufacturer - How do you not have to register them in the first place!?
I just dont get it
To me, the things he is proposing all make sense. What doesnt is the average americans reaction to it. Its like a child being told its not allowed its toys when its toy is an automatic weapon.
I have a lot of family over in the states and i see a lot of things pop up on my facebook feed, most of it completely over the top, short sighted or just plain moronic.
- ''it's all part of his evil plans to control the citizens of this country.....and if people don't wake up and stand up and fight.....he will succeed.'' - thats great aunt karen. She's in her 70's bless her gun slingin' heart.
- ''the next step will be to have everyone who hasn't done so already, register their guns - watch.'' Thats uncle johh, he is a driver for an ammunition manufacturer - How do you not have to register them in the first place!?
I just dont get it
Post edited at 09:02
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In reply to ActionSte:
"I just dont get it"
Me neither. Surely all they need to do is look at that chart in the BBC article linked above and think about why the murder rate is more than double their nearest neighbours.
"I just dont get it"
Me neither. Surely all they need to do is look at that chart in the BBC article linked above and think about why the murder rate is more than double their nearest neighbours.
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In reply to ActionSte:
Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried broaching the subject with them, and if so how did they react?
> To me, the things he is proposing all make sense. What doesnt is the average americans reaction to it. Its like a child being told its not allowed its toys when its toy is an automatic weapon.
> I have a lot of family over in the states and i see a lot of things pop up on my facebook feed, most of it completely over the top, short sighted or just plain moronic.
> - ''it's all part of his evil plans to control the citizens of this country.....and if people don't wake up and stand up and fight.....he will succeed.'' - thats great aunt karen. She's in her 70's bless her gun slingin' heart.
> - ''the next step will be to have everyone who hasn't done so already, register their guns - watch.'' Thats uncle johh, he is a driver for an ammunition manufacturer - How do you not have to register them in the first place!?
> I just dont get it
Just out of curiosity, have you ever tried broaching the subject with them, and if so how did they react?
In reply to balmybaldwin:
If he bypasses Congress, he will become unelectable. It'd be like the Queen bringing in a law by herself. Not a great idea, and antidemocratic, however much I might agree with him.
If he bypasses Congress, he will become unelectable. It'd be like the Queen bringing in a law by herself. Not a great idea, and antidemocratic, however much I might agree with him.
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In reply to Trevers:
I have a number of American friends who travel to Europe, are fairly worldly wise, reasonable and see beyond their own boundaries.
Mention gun country and it's like flicking a switch - all reason goes out of the window.
I have a number of American friends who travel to Europe, are fairly worldly wise, reasonable and see beyond their own boundaries.
Mention gun country and it's like flicking a switch - all reason goes out of the window.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
He can't be elected anyway - it would be his third term.!the question is will it make the democrats unelectable to Americans?
He can't be elected anyway - it would be his third term.!the question is will it make the democrats unelectable to Americans?
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
Bit of side note - but what happens to the millions of guns currently in circulation?
Bit of side note - but what happens to the millions of guns currently in circulation?
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In reply to JMGLondon:
They get melted down and made into nice big fences to keep the foreigners out. That way everyone's a winner!
They get melted down and made into nice big fences to keep the foreigners out. That way everyone's a winner!
In reply to balmybaldwin:
Guns are too entrenched in the American identity to do much about them in the short term.
Any restrictions will be blocked by the money involved.
Try ban them outright and and I believe lots of blood will flow.
I think the only solution is through education, it will take generations changing the perception of guns in the eyes of children might eventually end that culture.
Guns are too entrenched in the American identity to do much about them in the short term.
Any restrictions will be blocked by the money involved.
Try ban them outright and and I believe lots of blood will flow.
I think the only solution is through education, it will take generations changing the perception of guns in the eyes of children might eventually end that culture.
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In reply to ActionSte:
What is the average American reaction to this?
Living here it seems to be 'well done common sense'
What is the average American reaction to this?
Living here it seems to be 'well done common sense'
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Presidents do all the time, him less than most
> If he bypasses Congress, he will become unelectable. It'd be like the Queen bringing in a law by herself. Not a great idea, and antidemocratic, however much I might agree with him.
Presidents do all the time, him less than most
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In reply to Dax H:
I don't agree.
In the short rem we can recue firing rates, but yes guns won't go away, they cannot be banned here.
Hunting is huge, for that alone it won't change but handguns for protection are part of the us psyche.
I don't agree.
In the short rem we can recue firing rates, but yes guns won't go away, they cannot be banned here.
Hunting is huge, for that alone it won't change but handguns for protection are part of the us psyche.
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In reply to Dax H:
...
As far as I've read the controls he wants to impose are basic things like ensuring background checks are made on people buying guns so that certain people with psychiatric problems or those already suspected to be involved with terrorism are unable to do so.
How can any sensible person complain against that?
...
> Try ban them outright and and I believe lots of blood will flow.
As far as I've read the controls he wants to impose are basic things like ensuring background checks are made on people buying guns so that certain people with psychiatric problems or those already suspected to be involved with terrorism are unable to do so.
How can any sensible person complain against that?
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In reply to gethin_allen:
No sensible person would have a problem with greater checks or things like no ownership of military grade automatic weapons.
Realistically for hunting all you need is a bolt action single shot rifle, if you can't hit and kill in 1 shot you should not be hunting.
Unfortunately the NRA have the money and lobbying power and I believe you will only beat that through education and changing perceptions.
This whole debate has me at very cross purposes. I own a collection of shotguns (clay shooting not hunting) and I enjoy the occasional target shooting.
One of the best gun related things I have done was shooting a 50 cal black powder revolver, it felt great.
Fully legal in this country because it was a black powder cap and ball.
The noise and the smoke and the power was awsome.
But it is also not needed in civilised society hence my mixed feelings.
If I lived in a country that allowed gun ownership I would own them but I would also ban them from public hands.
No sensible person would have a problem with greater checks or things like no ownership of military grade automatic weapons.
Realistically for hunting all you need is a bolt action single shot rifle, if you can't hit and kill in 1 shot you should not be hunting.
Unfortunately the NRA have the money and lobbying power and I believe you will only beat that through education and changing perceptions.
This whole debate has me at very cross purposes. I own a collection of shotguns (clay shooting not hunting) and I enjoy the occasional target shooting.
One of the best gun related things I have done was shooting a 50 cal black powder revolver, it felt great.
Fully legal in this country because it was a black powder cap and ball.
The noise and the smoke and the power was awsome.
But it is also not needed in civilised society hence my mixed feelings.
If I lived in a country that allowed gun ownership I would own them but I would also ban them from public hands.
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In reply to Dax H:
When meeting with Americans outside of the US I found you tend to meet the more liberal types but even talking to them they often had family who had what I would call 'assault rifles'. Although they don't necessarily agree I'm not sure they see it quite as 'bonkers as we do. The US right of centre media has played it well as many of these liberal Americans genuinely believe that the UK is full of knife wielding kids and that we have an epidemic of stabbings that approaches their gun crime.
I was talking to friend who has an interesting past shall we say and he said he could genuinely go into Nottingham and come away with an assault type gun within 24hours...... but he would have to pay a significant amount of money to 'rent it' (buying one would be astronomical amounts), have very limited ammunition (also that he would have to pay a significant amount if money for) and knowing that at least 10 other people are aware he has been looking for a gun. This sort of information will inevitably get back to police as a rumour if not hard information. A handgun would be easier but still costs and still has at least 1 leak of information.
Police intelligence about who has guns within the crime community he thinks is pretty strong, and the chance of any 15 year kid getting hold of anything to shoot up a school must be slim due to the cost and the fact the Bobby-Big-Balls gun loaner is not going t risk lending out a gun to a kid who could link him directly.... the problem is these kids in the US just go into dads (or even there own) arsenal of high end weaponry. Its bonkers!
They are no going to get old guns off the street, they probably aren't going to ban the sale of Automatic type weapons soon but surely limiting the supply by tightening legislation and waiting times and background checks will, over time, reduce the number of guns in the community... obviously the gun compaies aren't going to like that, they fund the NRA and inevitably will the main opposition to these laws
When meeting with Americans outside of the US I found you tend to meet the more liberal types but even talking to them they often had family who had what I would call 'assault rifles'. Although they don't necessarily agree I'm not sure they see it quite as 'bonkers as we do. The US right of centre media has played it well as many of these liberal Americans genuinely believe that the UK is full of knife wielding kids and that we have an epidemic of stabbings that approaches their gun crime.
I was talking to friend who has an interesting past shall we say and he said he could genuinely go into Nottingham and come away with an assault type gun within 24hours...... but he would have to pay a significant amount of money to 'rent it' (buying one would be astronomical amounts), have very limited ammunition (also that he would have to pay a significant amount if money for) and knowing that at least 10 other people are aware he has been looking for a gun. This sort of information will inevitably get back to police as a rumour if not hard information. A handgun would be easier but still costs and still has at least 1 leak of information.
Police intelligence about who has guns within the crime community he thinks is pretty strong, and the chance of any 15 year kid getting hold of anything to shoot up a school must be slim due to the cost and the fact the Bobby-Big-Balls gun loaner is not going t risk lending out a gun to a kid who could link him directly.... the problem is these kids in the US just go into dads (or even there own) arsenal of high end weaponry. Its bonkers!
They are no going to get old guns off the street, they probably aren't going to ban the sale of Automatic type weapons soon but surely limiting the supply by tightening legislation and waiting times and background checks will, over time, reduce the number of guns in the community... obviously the gun compaies aren't going to like that, they fund the NRA and inevitably will the main opposition to these laws
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
I still own the Diana air rifle with which I was taught to shoot in 1966. In a few months, we will have new legislation phasing in for air gun licensing in Scotland. That's because we are the kind of country where we don't like our children being shot. I shall be checking all this out shortly so that I am ready to return to the same situation as existed in 1966.
I am a regular firearms user with several interesting and powerful pieces of kit that help ensure this country's security. Maybe that means I get my fix! However, I believe that one of the best things about the UK and its components is that we have a sensible balance between security, freedom and safety in relation to firearms.
The USA situation is totally barking mad. No developed country can have a reasonable case for such unregulated firearm possession and use.
If Obama does this as he approaches the end of his tenure then he cannot suffer for it politically. He sets up the next president for a fall. Anyone who repeals this is labelled by history as the evil one who killed all those kids.
I still own the Diana air rifle with which I was taught to shoot in 1966. In a few months, we will have new legislation phasing in for air gun licensing in Scotland. That's because we are the kind of country where we don't like our children being shot. I shall be checking all this out shortly so that I am ready to return to the same situation as existed in 1966.
I am a regular firearms user with several interesting and powerful pieces of kit that help ensure this country's security. Maybe that means I get my fix! However, I believe that one of the best things about the UK and its components is that we have a sensible balance between security, freedom and safety in relation to firearms.
The USA situation is totally barking mad. No developed country can have a reasonable case for such unregulated firearm possession and use.
If Obama does this as he approaches the end of his tenure then he cannot suffer for it politically. He sets up the next president for a fall. Anyone who repeals this is labelled by history as the evil one who killed all those kids.
Post edited at 16:43
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In reply to Jim Fraser:
How so?
> I am a regular firearms user with several interesting and powerful pieces of kit that help ensure this country's security.
How so?
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In reply to Fraser:
If you read his profile it says "infantryman" and "engineer", so I guess he has tanks to play with.
> How so?
If you read his profile it says "infantryman" and "engineer", so I guess he has tanks to play with.
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In reply to Bingers:
Or to keep the natives in.
> They get melted down and made into nice big fences to keep the foreigners out. That way everyone's a winner!
Or to keep the natives in.
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
They see it as chipping away at their constitutional rights really. Many of them think Obama is the anti christ and is deliberately destroying America by slowly restricting their rights, taking away this, making them sign up to that, and it is their duty as a citizen to protect the country from all enemies foreign and domestic, and so they feel they need guns which are just as good as the ones the government posses in order to do this ''when the time comes''.
Id say as far as access to guns, that is their main gripe, but again, i see it as a naughty child being told they're only allowed their toys if they finish their vegetables and so they throw a paddy about it.
They see it as chipping away at their constitutional rights really. Many of them think Obama is the anti christ and is deliberately destroying America by slowly restricting their rights, taking away this, making them sign up to that, and it is their duty as a citizen to protect the country from all enemies foreign and domestic, and so they feel they need guns which are just as good as the ones the government posses in order to do this ''when the time comes''.
Id say as far as access to guns, that is their main gripe, but again, i see it as a naughty child being told they're only allowed their toys if they finish their vegetables and so they throw a paddy about it.
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In reply to ActionSte:
That's not true.
You do realize most Americans don't own a gun?
Some see Obama as dangerous, others love him.
That's not true.
You do realize most Americans don't own a gun?
Some see Obama as dangerous, others love him.
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In reply to Jim Fraser:
Not sure about that. You should be right but hasnt bother the various politicans so far who have loosened the laws.
> If Obama does this as he approaches the end of his tenure then he cannot suffer for it politically. He sets up the next president for a fall. Anyone who repeals this is labelled by history as the evil one who killed all those kids.
Not sure about that. You should be right but hasnt bother the various politicans so far who have loosened the laws.
In reply to Roadrunner5:
When you asked what the average American reaction to this was, the only average Americans i know are my family and some of their friends who were the subject of my reply, so my previous statement is entirely true.
I appreciate that a lot of Americans arent gun toting maniacs like my family - but my family are infact gun toting, trump supporting, obama hating, all 'merican nut jobs, so Id say its a pretty accurate perspective on why some Americans are opposed to stricter gun control.
I still dont get it though...
When you asked what the average American reaction to this was, the only average Americans i know are my family and some of their friends who were the subject of my reply, so my previous statement is entirely true.
I appreciate that a lot of Americans arent gun toting maniacs like my family - but my family are infact gun toting, trump supporting, obama hating, all 'merican nut jobs, so Id say its a pretty accurate perspective on why some Americans are opposed to stricter gun control.
I still dont get it though...
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In reply to ActionSte:
It's a great pity Americans don't understand their constitution a bit better. The right to bear arms wasn't intended as a God-given right to go round with assault rifles shooting up primary schools; it was specifically - and explicitly - to enable citizens to form a 'well-armed' militia, i.e. a disciplined citizen's army. This would then remove the need for a standing army and thus remove a potential key instrument of government oppression. Almost as though the Founding Fathers had thought about these things...
Of course it has all been seriously misinterpreted and gone completely pear shaped so that there IS no well disciplined militia, there IS a huge standing army which - together with the so-called intelligence services DOES act as an instrument of oppression, and the right to bear arms has been interpreted as the right to make big bucks by selling serious hardware to every seriously deranged nut job who wants one.
It would be ironically amusing if it wasn't so tragic.
It's a great pity Americans don't understand their constitution a bit better. The right to bear arms wasn't intended as a God-given right to go round with assault rifles shooting up primary schools; it was specifically - and explicitly - to enable citizens to form a 'well-armed' militia, i.e. a disciplined citizen's army. This would then remove the need for a standing army and thus remove a potential key instrument of government oppression. Almost as though the Founding Fathers had thought about these things...
Of course it has all been seriously misinterpreted and gone completely pear shaped so that there IS no well disciplined militia, there IS a huge standing army which - together with the so-called intelligence services DOES act as an instrument of oppression, and the right to bear arms has been interpreted as the right to make big bucks by selling serious hardware to every seriously deranged nut job who wants one.
It would be ironically amusing if it wasn't so tragic.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
It has been re-interpreted by he government that the amendment also means the right to have a gun to defend your house.
It has been re-interpreted by he government that the amendment also means the right to have a gun to defend your house.
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Speaking of a well armed militia. These lot appear like charmers.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/militia_...
Speaking of a well armed militia. These lot appear like charmers.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2016/01/militia_...
In reply to Roadrunner5:
Just out of intetest I wonder what percentage of americans who DO believe in private gun ownership (limiting it to non hunting type guns) DON'T own a gun themselves?
Just out of intetest I wonder what percentage of americans who DO believe in private gun ownership (limiting it to non hunting type guns) DON'T own a gun themselves?
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In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
There's seperate things going on as well.
There's pro gun people and then there are anti-government involvement people, people who believe the government has no right to interfere in your life and house.
That's also an issue with the Oregon militia at the moment.
There's seperate things going on as well.
There's pro gun people and then there are anti-government involvement people, people who believe the government has no right to interfere in your life and house.
That's also an issue with the Oregon militia at the moment.
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC): It's pretty high - according to a program I heard last night on NPR only about 33% of american households actually contain a gun but support for gun ownership is fairly constant. However gun sales are going up as the gun nuts are sure Obama will ban everything and they need to stock up before the Muslims attack every school
However support for gun ownership doesn't mean everyone is okey dokey with punters owning assault rifles, open, concealed carry in public however. That is a rich, noisy minority
However support for gun ownership doesn't mean everyone is okey dokey with punters owning assault rifles, open, concealed carry in public however. That is a rich, noisy minority
In reply to wbo:
In my head i cant work out which seems worse, open or concealed carry.
Open carry states must be quite intimidating to walk around in if you arent comfortable with guns but at least its up front and clear.
Like someone said about confederate flag belt buckles, number plates etc, at least they identify from a distance people who you dont want to employ or chat up
In my head i cant work out which seems worse, open or concealed carry.
Open carry states must be quite intimidating to walk around in if you arent comfortable with guns but at least its up front and clear.
Like someone said about confederate flag belt buckles, number plates etc, at least they identify from a distance people who you dont want to employ or chat up
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In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
I always assumed the line "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,[...]" was because the US had no standing army at the time but needed but the state might need one to fight off the English and native Americans from time to time...
I always assumed the line "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,[...]" was because the US had no standing army at the time but needed but the state might need one to fight off the English and native Americans from time to time...
In reply to Andy Hardy:
what we need are a few high profile cases (successful ones) of people going after the gun and ammo companies, like there was against the tobacco industry.
man who are pro gun do realize there is just no argument for having ludicrous weapons at home and also that would-be terrorists cant fly but can buy guns. They realize such loop holes need to close. We need more checks.
what we need are a few high profile cases (successful ones) of people going after the gun and ammo companies, like there was against the tobacco industry.
man who are pro gun do realize there is just no argument for having ludicrous weapons at home and also that would-be terrorists cant fly but can buy guns. They realize such loop holes need to close. We need more checks.
In reply to balmybaldwin:
The sight of Obama openly weeping on the TV tonight was pretty moving. I might be wrong but I think he really cares and really believes that some tightening has to take place on his watch or he will have failed.
I'm so glad I live in UK. The various gun changes post Hungerford and Dunblane have made this place safer for all.
The sight of Obama openly weeping on the TV tonight was pretty moving. I might be wrong but I think he really cares and really believes that some tightening has to take place on his watch or he will have failed.
I'm so glad I live in UK. The various gun changes post Hungerford and Dunblane have made this place safer for all.
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In reply to balmybaldwin:
This might help to clarify just how demented a significant chunk of the American population actually is.
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialRightWingNews/photos/a.401034789956656.903...
Speaking as someone who has lived there for 30 years.
This might help to clarify just how demented a significant chunk of the American population actually is.
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialRightWingNews/photos/a.401034789956656.903...
Speaking as someone who has lived there for 30 years.
Post edited at 22:57
In reply to redjerry:
You have your crazies.. Where are you?
I'm in South NJ but on the border of the south, literally just by the MD line. I've friends who are very very pro gun, share right wing news, fly confed flags.. Yet they are friends with illegals..
But even though they are very very pro gun they know how to handle them and that a gun is to hunt, possibly a handgun for self defense but they can provide no argument for assault rifles, let alone anti tank guns and the like..
You have your crazies.. Where are you?
I'm in South NJ but on the border of the south, literally just by the MD line. I've friends who are very very pro gun, share right wing news, fly confed flags.. Yet they are friends with illegals..
But even though they are very very pro gun they know how to handle them and that a gun is to hunt, possibly a handgun for self defense but they can provide no argument for assault rifles, let alone anti tank guns and the like..
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In reply to Roadrunner5:
I think this is the tiny flaw in the US pro-gun argument........
> .........possibly a handgun for self defense ......
I think this is the tiny flaw in the US pro-gun argument........
In reply to Babika:
When in America on business my Dad was talking to a guy (who seemed pretty decent & agreeable) who said something along the lines of if anybody broke into his house he forfeited the right to live, to do with him having a gun in his home. I guess it could have been talk as much as anything, but it's easy to see adrenaline having somebody fire at somebody in their home, pretty understandably I guess if feeling afraid.
When in America on business my Dad was talking to a guy (who seemed pretty decent & agreeable) who said something along the lines of if anybody broke into his house he forfeited the right to live, to do with him having a gun in his home. I guess it could have been talk as much as anything, but it's easy to see adrenaline having somebody fire at somebody in their home, pretty understandably I guess if feeling afraid.
Post edited at 13:12
In reply to ActionSte:
A slightly different perspective Most everyone in my family has guns - a lot of them hunt and the vast majority of them live off the land, growing and hunting their own food, building their own houses. I was raised to see guns as merely a tool and to treat them respectfully. Only one person in our family uses them as a form of interior design and he's considered a bit weird; everyone else keeps theirs locked away.
My family comes from a very rural area. The state capital is a half a day away. Washington might as well be in another part of the solar system. Transport infrastructure is poor, education infrastructure is poor, investment (inward or outward) is nearly non-existent; the only people making a decent living from farming are the Amish (and that's a whole other story). They are incredibly community-minded and self-sufficient. They may not be well-educated or sophisticated, but they are generous, honest and hard-working - and, income-wise, poor but the idea of government assistance is a complete anathema to them.
What I have come to understand is that my family and their peers are genuinely afraid of 'the government'. 'Government' is a group of elite people with vested interests who don't understand them, can't appreciate their values or way of life, help them in the ways they need helping (jobs, education) and, actually, actively want to destroy their values and their way of life. I didn't get it (and I'm from there) until the last time when I was home someone in town put it to me this way, "Don't you think if the Jews had guns, the Nazis wouldn't have been able to do what they did to those poor people." It really floored me.
I think it might be easy to dismiss this a conspiracy-type thinking, hyperbole, or even stupidity. These people aren't stupid - they are economically, socially and culturally marginalised - they feel vulnerable and frightened. I'm not condoning or endorsing these beliefs, but maybe I am starting to get it a little bit...
As RobExileWard says - it's tragic that we don't understand our Constitution better...and a lot of other things besides.
A slightly different perspective Most everyone in my family has guns - a lot of them hunt and the vast majority of them live off the land, growing and hunting their own food, building their own houses. I was raised to see guns as merely a tool and to treat them respectfully. Only one person in our family uses them as a form of interior design and he's considered a bit weird; everyone else keeps theirs locked away.
My family comes from a very rural area. The state capital is a half a day away. Washington might as well be in another part of the solar system. Transport infrastructure is poor, education infrastructure is poor, investment (inward or outward) is nearly non-existent; the only people making a decent living from farming are the Amish (and that's a whole other story). They are incredibly community-minded and self-sufficient. They may not be well-educated or sophisticated, but they are generous, honest and hard-working - and, income-wise, poor but the idea of government assistance is a complete anathema to them.
What I have come to understand is that my family and their peers are genuinely afraid of 'the government'. 'Government' is a group of elite people with vested interests who don't understand them, can't appreciate their values or way of life, help them in the ways they need helping (jobs, education) and, actually, actively want to destroy their values and their way of life. I didn't get it (and I'm from there) until the last time when I was home someone in town put it to me this way, "Don't you think if the Jews had guns, the Nazis wouldn't have been able to do what they did to those poor people." It really floored me.
I think it might be easy to dismiss this a conspiracy-type thinking, hyperbole, or even stupidity. These people aren't stupid - they are economically, socially and culturally marginalised - they feel vulnerable and frightened. I'm not condoning or endorsing these beliefs, but maybe I am starting to get it a little bit...
As RobExileWard says - it's tragic that we don't understand our Constitution better...and a lot of other things besides.
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In reply to damhan-allaidh:
Some very good points there.
I have to say, if I lived in an isolated farm in Nowheresville USA, (particularly near the Mexican border with it's people/drugs traffickers and rape trees), miles away from anything resembling the police, then I'd be somewhat nervous about who might be passing through. In fact I'd probably be as tooled up as the next Billy-Bob or Cleetus.
It's a completely different dynamic to the UK. However the current situation, where you can walk into a gun show with a driving licence for ID, then walk out with all the guns and ammo you can carry without any checks, is just unbelieveable.
Some very good points there.
I have to say, if I lived in an isolated farm in Nowheresville USA, (particularly near the Mexican border with it's people/drugs traffickers and rape trees), miles away from anything resembling the police, then I'd be somewhat nervous about who might be passing through. In fact I'd probably be as tooled up as the next Billy-Bob or Cleetus.
It's a completely different dynamic to the UK. However the current situation, where you can walk into a gun show with a driving licence for ID, then walk out with all the guns and ammo you can carry without any checks, is just unbelieveable.
Post edited at 18:37
2
In reply to Ridge:
I'd agree - there are some very odd folks out in no-wheresville USA (and some wonderfully generous folks as well) and there is an underlying "they ain't from round here" suspicion, some of it well founded. What I find bizarre are the folks who live in built up areas that are like much of the UK (except for the plethora of guns, of course) who feel that they need a gun "for protection". These are the people, by and large, who get shot by their small children or shoot their children when they come or go at odd hours, shoot members of the family in an argument, etc. Certainly the chances of them being able to actually defend themselves from an out of the blue attack are pretty remote, given that the attacker is going to be in a far higher state of readiness than they are.
> Some very good points there.
> I have to say, if I lived in an isolated farm in Nowheresville USA, (particularly near the Mexican border with it's people/drugs traffickers and rape trees), miles away from anything resembling the police, then I'd be somewhat nervous about who might be passing through. In fact I'd probably be as tooled up as the next Billy-Bob or Cleetus.
> It's a completely different dynamic to the UK. However the current situation, where you can walk into a gun show with a driving licence for ID, then walk out with all the guns and ammo you can carry without any checks, is just unbelieveable.
I'd agree - there are some very odd folks out in no-wheresville USA (and some wonderfully generous folks as well) and there is an underlying "they ain't from round here" suspicion, some of it well founded. What I find bizarre are the folks who live in built up areas that are like much of the UK (except for the plethora of guns, of course) who feel that they need a gun "for protection". These are the people, by and large, who get shot by their small children or shoot their children when they come or go at odd hours, shoot members of the family in an argument, etc. Certainly the chances of them being able to actually defend themselves from an out of the blue attack are pretty remote, given that the attacker is going to be in a far higher state of readiness than they are.
In reply to damhan-allaidh:
Interesting post.
One could quote your first two paragraphs but change 'Washington' for 'London' (or even Edinburgh) and you could easily be talking about the NW of Scotland or the Hebrides. Fear of neighbours and strangers doesn't really feature there, neither do keys or locked doors let alone gun for defence. Views on the government tend to be dismissive rather than paranoiac.
Not trying to make any particular point, but it all underlines how profoundly foreign the USA is to us Europeans despite the many outward cultural similarities.
Interesting post.
One could quote your first two paragraphs but change 'Washington' for 'London' (or even Edinburgh) and you could easily be talking about the NW of Scotland or the Hebrides. Fear of neighbours and strangers doesn't really feature there, neither do keys or locked doors let alone gun for defence. Views on the government tend to be dismissive rather than paranoiac.
Not trying to make any particular point, but it all underlines how profoundly foreign the USA is to us Europeans despite the many outward cultural similarities.
2
In reply to pneame:
IIRC the minimum safe distance from a potential assailant, assuming you have an 'open carry' pistol in an easily accessible holster, is something like 21 feet. Any closer than that and they'll be on you before you can draw. Rather makes a mockery of these numpties walking round town with open carry and ladies with glocks in their handbags being able to 'defend themselves'.
> Certainly the chances of them being able to actually defend themselves from an out of the blue attack are pretty remote, given that the attacker is going to be in a far higher state of readiness than they are.
IIRC the minimum safe distance from a potential assailant, assuming you have an 'open carry' pistol in an easily accessible holster, is something like 21 feet. Any closer than that and they'll be on you before you can draw. Rather makes a mockery of these numpties walking round town with open carry and ladies with glocks in their handbags being able to 'defend themselves'.
In reply to Removed User:
What's the probability of encountering an AK toting meth-head in Balivanich in comparison to Shitsville, Oregon?
> you could easily be talking about the NW of Scotland or the Hebrides. Fear of neighbours and strangers doesn't really feature there, neither do keys or locked doors let alone gun for defence.
What's the probability of encountering an AK toting meth-head in Balivanich in comparison to Shitsville, Oregon?
In reply to Ridge:
For heavens sake be quiet will you.
This guy
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/police-scotlands-new-chief-...
is an ex Met counter terrorism guy and probably thinks places like Balavanich could be a point of weakness. The place will end up full of weegie polis with Glock and MP5 asking where the local mosque is and wondering where to find a nightclub for their next night off.
> What's the probability of encountering an AK toting meth-head in Balivanich in comparison to Shitsville, Oregon?
For heavens sake be quiet will you.
This guy
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/police-scotlands-new-chief-...
is an ex Met counter terrorism guy and probably thinks places like Balavanich could be a point of weakness. The place will end up full of weegie polis with Glock and MP5 asking where the local mosque is and wondering where to find a nightclub for their next night off.
1
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