UKC

In reply to Greenbanks:
What a load of old crap.
If by Proustian you mean lengthy and cumbersome then I guess your post is a good example.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Bitter. And untrue.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I'm in my 50's and climbed for over 35 years but it's not like it was for sure. I liked it as a fringe activity rather than the mainstream it is today and I was in the Clachaig last week and hardly recognised it inside!

In reply to Greenbanks:

I disagree entirely. I've only ever climbed in the 'current' era. I love it. I spend time with my mates. I immerse myself in the scenery, the occasion and the sense of challenge, enjoyment and achievement climbing gives me.

With all due courtesy, some of the sentiment in your post is slightly disrespectful to myself and others who simply get on with enjoying their climbing in the here and now. It brings me lots of joy, so I guess we'll have to respectfully disagree on the state climbing is in nowadays. I think it's fab!

In reply to Greenbanks:

Nostalgia eh. It's not what it was.

In reply to Greenbanks:


Bollocks.

In reply to Greenbanks:


To put it bluntly, speak for your bloody self mate. It's all still there if you want to go and look for it, and plenty of us do.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Things are different, you're no longer young, get over it.

You could take any year/decade and find climbers who had motivations/ethics/whatever which you/one doesn't think are what climbing should really be about. This is nothing new.

Climbing is obviously more popular, and less elitist than it has been, this has both positives and negatives, but it is just life. People are still living it, despite this.

In reply to Greenbanks:

UK rock climbing ended with Johnny Dawes on Indian Face.

In reply to Greenbanks:



You forgot "bolt it down to my level..."

In reply to Greenbanks:

I'm an old codger too and agree that there was something back then that doesn't exist now. BUT I don't want today to be like yesterday. I enjoy my climbing now as much (more...?) as back then. Getting stuck in the past doesn't lead anywhere.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I agree but of course I am of your era - everybody has their glory-days and they believe them to be 'the best ever' - which they are!


Chris

In reply to Greenbanks:

I love my now all too infrequent climbing trips, hopping into the car with a bag stuffed with a rack, a thermos and lunch, I love parting with 7 quid on the Severn Bridge, accelerating away from the toll booth with the wink of Wyndcliffe on the horizon, teetering up to Lanacut Lane with the immensity of space felt but not seen out of the passenger's window. Engine off and breath! Smell the grass and the trees and the sunshine (for it is always summer and the sun always shines in my mind in this place), hear the cows and the happy tinkle of Hex bells. Gabbled conversation on the way to the nick by the road, the old parking spot and there it is immense, with the Wye toiling slowly by, a beautiful Ying to Avon's congested and cluttered Yang. We ape our way down the easy way down, every hold familiar, the roots polished with our sweat and that of generations before us. And the routes? Just the same old ones we've done a hundred times, familiar stances, no stress, disjointed conversations broken by "I'm off, see you in a bit". Happy lunch from a pack stuffed under a bush, the peregrines screaming and the crows turning lazy circles below us. Anther route, the sun's angle increasing then back again into the car and back home to count the bruises and scratches and rub shamefully at the sunburnt cheeks. A leaden descent to sleep broken only by a twitch as you sleep-fall before the happy slumber after a day well spent, a balm for the body and the soul.

"Its all plastic, all climb by numbers...all 'my rack is better than yours' and lets ignore these landscapes full of nature's glory lest they deflect from the singleminded chase up the grades at the expense of friendships and an appreciation of our mountain's gifts."

Not for me it's not! Cheer up old son.

In reply to Greenbanks:

So what? The days you speak of were spoken in the same way from those two generations before. And we'll be saying the same of our grandkids when they've got string thin ropes, stealth rubber spray on gloves and 20kN suction cupped removable bolts for protection. The zeitgeist is what its all about man. The spirit of the age!!!!

In reply to Greenbanks:

'Its all gone though, hasn't it? '

Er... no. I'm probably older than you and I remember the late 60s and early 70s in LLanberis with extraordinary nostalgia - Wendy's café, Humphries and Tremadoc barn, the excitement of a Ron James HVS+, early repeats on Gogarth with no one to ask directions, the imprecision of XS, a community small enough so that you always met people you knew ... but my youngest son seems to enjoy his climbing just as much as I ever did, it's just different, that's all.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Pish of the highest order.

In reply to Greenbanks:
Climbing in t'60s... luxury. You were lucky.

My Grandad started climbing in the 20's. E 'ad to hitchhike out to Whangie or to Roaches cos he 'ad to live in Glasgow and Manchester cos of great depression meant 'e 'ad ter follow t'work. E used 'emp rope and boots wi' nails. I've got some of 'is guidebooks from 1926 and 'e was just as tick obsessed as anyone.

E managed to climb routes now graded VS with nowt but a bit of pluck and a spot 50 ft below from is mates. Non of yer fancy 60's stuff like nylon ropes, cars an metal stuff if yer please. Even weekends were a luxury as t'wirking week ended at lunchtime on Saturday.

I've got some pics of 'im climbing in me gallery, now THAT'S a sadly vanished era, fond memories o' diptheria an' fascism 'an all that. But being 'ow e was an engineer, if cams, dynamic ropes and sticky boots 'ad been around then, 'e'd ave lapped em up.

In reply to Bobling:

Exactly, sums it up nicely. Same crag too.

I do fear for the younger generation though - progress does seem to be marked more, by certificate, grade and micro-grade, sit-start or standing, top-rope or leading, on sight or not, 2nd on-sight, retro-flash, SPA or indoor this or that, bolted this and drilled that, and fig4/9, or DTS and how do I train for this without eating that and lose weight but gain power and recruitment and God knows what else, and what's the best this for that. Still, if everyone's still having fun - I'm not quite sure that it's the same fun though.

But if anyone wants to take my handled axes, screws and softshell away and give me back the old stuff, there'll be a fight! I speak as someone who only last week bought wired replacements for my Rock 7, 8 and 9 on rope. I'm not sure if that was a wise move.....

In reply to nniff:

More pish, this time mixed with a smattering of drivel. Particularly ironic to keep harping on about indoor climbing when on my (admittedly infrequent these days) visits to such establishments I manage to significantly reduce the average age of the participants already there - and I'm in my 50s. You oldies ought to get outside more and experience real climbing.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Ah go on, give the guy a break. Everyone's allowed a little wander through nostalgia. There was a time when you were leading HVS in the Lakes and looked like some kind of hero. Now on the other end of the bell curve, leading HVS after one too many lay-off you're one step up from middling. The bilberries are still out there, the craic always waiting to be fed some kindling.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Ah, another one of these threads; dragging the legacy of rose-tinted nostalgia previously championed by bitter ageing climbing mag columnists into the digital era.

Rather than a vanishing spirit, you are lamenting the inevitable loss of youth that we all will face - hopefully with a little more grace.

The young are, and always will be, off being young away from the tired eyes of others.

I suspect that you would gain some hope from a visit to the Bishop Isles, Shelter Stone, Robin Hood's Cave, or the unlocked bogs of an Alpine lift station; where you might catch a glimpse of young people revelling in the raw adventurous cameraderie you seem to be pining for.

I'm sure you'd be welcomed.

D.

In reply to Greenbanks:

"Old age should burn and rave at close of day; Rage, rage against the dying of the light"

I see you posted at close of day....steady on lad, there's still a load of positives to be drawn from climbing today including better gear and better transport. Inevitably when you've been climbing for years, things today will not seem as exciting as they were yesteryear, but as others have said there's plenty of adventure still out there, you just need to look a bit harder. Admittedly climbing is more mainstream than it was, but if you have a craic with some of the youngsters pushing the boat out on the crag, you'll see the light is still in there.

Yours

A.Fifty-Something

In reply to Willi Crater:

Dont group all of the oldies as being of the same mind as Greenbanks At 82 I still enjoy my climbing as much as I did at 17 and I am climbing harder stuff now than years ago.Last year on the Dent De Orlu 5 of us clocked up over 340 years betweeen us .Yes things have changed ,just go with the flow .do your own thing and enjoy it while you can.Its what you get out of it thats important .I would like a Rolls Royce but I am quite happy with my little Citroen.

In reply to Greenbanks:


You have indeed. And whilst it was no doubt good to get it off your chest, there are many others - including me - who disagree. Things change, sometimes for the worse, sometime the better, and people's aspirations change likewise. You can't fight evolution.

In reply to Greenbanks:


I know nostalgia can creep up on us but I find that when I do manage to get out climbing with old friends it all feels much the same as it used to (except that perhaps we tend to get on with it a bit more efficiently). I'm lucky to have kept in touch with many of the people I climbed with in the 70s, and when we do get together we misbehave as much as we ever did. It also helps to have belonged to the same club for a long time and to be able to use the same huts with all their associations.

The problem is finding time to do it. Other stuff just gets in the way, but the crags are still out there and mostly they haven't changed that much since 1976!

In reply to Otis:


Me too. So far it's lasted 40 years.

In reply to Greenbanks:


Interesting post leading to an interesting conversation, but it has left me thinking that there are probably almost as many different versions of 'climbing' or whatever else it is under discussion as there are people involved in it.

The obvious assumption from the picture you shared is that you are talking about trad climbing in the UK. The many reactions suggest a whole range of different though related activities which cover as wide or as narrow a range as you want them to, so some of those people could well be talking about things that are only very loosely related to what bothers you. Meanwhile and as several people have said, the crags are still there to be climbed in whatever way you want. As for the social scene or the joint endeavour, there is not just one but thousands of those; different groups of very different people coming together each with their own particular collective focus, style and objectives.

So what is it that you are missing? Is it certain friends or groups of friends of yours who have changed or moved on? Is it you yourself - are you no longer the person you once were, do you miss your former self? Or is it changes in the journalistic aspects, in the books that are written, in the films that are produced and other such things that pass for the various subcultures associated with these activities?

As with so many things in life, it is a smorgasbord - you take from it what you want and leave the rest. I think that in order to understand your reaction, you need to think about it some more and to articulate in more specific terms what the matter is. What are the specifics - the concrete things; the evidence that prompts your assertions?

In reply to Greenbanks:

Thats all a bit sad. You,ve lost that loving climbing feeling!
I,ve been climbing for over 50 years now and when I started you were a hard man if you could lead V.S. Climbing has changed and evolved maybe not for the better? I used to love trad. but now get my kicks on the bolts!
I was at Stanage bouldering with Martin Atkinson Chris Plant and Rory Gregory the other day in the sunshine. We were having a very silly jokingly competitive time. Martin usually gets me to fall off in extremis telling jokes, but not today! At one point Basher turned round and commented on the fantastic views and clear air, all the way up to Bleaklow and Kinder and beyond. We all stood and took it in for a few silent seconds. So we do still appreciate the landscape
Ah well got to go, must pack for Font and then Kaly !

In reply to Andy Morley:


That's what occurred to me when I read the OP.

In reply to Big Ger:


I see you've on-sighted many 9a's. Good job they bought the climbing down to your level.

Oh wait, you haven't. Bolting is not in any away about bringing routes "down to your level", it's about making climbs that are unacceptably dangerous/difficult possible. Which means there are more routes to go round. No bad thing really.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Quality troll there pal, you've hooked loads. I'm climbing better now than when I began 30+ years ago. Pulling plastic is the ideal medium for ripping the piss from your mates, which is, I'm sure what Kirkus' much quoted lines are all about. The game has changed, the kit has changed, the venues have changed but the human interactions which make climbing are just the same - or better.

In reply to Andy Hardy:
At last. Thanks


But I think there have been some really GREAT points made by many...and I hope no-one feels insulted. In actual fact, some of the comments had a ring of truth in them!

As a footnote, great trip last year up Kinabalu, then to Chamonix (bugger me, skiing with a 16 and a 19 year old), then a few days walking in the High Tatra...as well as the usual flog up to Scafell, Lliwedd & the likes for a spot of grimping - with the customary stop for refuelling at journey-through-the-past watering holes in Capel, Ambleside etc

Thanks again all
(Oh, knocking on 69 years...and still at it)

In reply to jon:


Maybe what you had back then was your own your own youthful enthusiasm and a new sport to explore?

In reply to rocksol:


... and then I fell off!

In reply to timjones:


In which case all you need to do is find a new sport or other thing to explore. There's so much out there, one human life can only scratch the surface.

In reply to Andy Morley:


I think this is a very valid point. I know people whose highest climbing ambition is to get the purple 7a on the big overhang before they reset it (and fair play to them if that's their bag). And other people who really just want to get out to wild and remote places and climb inspiring lines with good friends. And, come to that, people who go to the wall on weekday evenings to try to get the purple 7a on the big overhang, but spend as many of their weekends and holidays as possible getting out to wild and remote places to climb inspiring lines with good friends.

So yeah, hard to generalize.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Whilst I agree with the sentiment expressed, and the way climbing has moved from a fringe pursuit of happy nutters to become a more mainstream 'adventure sport' (I hate, loathe and despise that term), I'd like to make one point that seems especially germane.

Things weren't better back then. It's just that we were younger.

T.

In reply to Greenbanks:
and others
The reason that I put that photo up was because I think it is intrinsically good and shows that one can take
a good shot when actually involved without all the technology of today. I put it in Trad climbing but UKC, without referring to me immediately changed it to Historicaal. Which of itself says much. I changed it back again. It is NOT about nostalgia. I, like one of those who has replied, am 82 and have gone on enjoying my climbing and am fully recognizant that I should not have been able to do so without the way things have evolved: I would almost certainly be dead. . What I would however note, whilst accepting it as part of that evolution, was that climbing was a single church back in 1966 and its fragmentation has been detrimental to Alpinism which was an extremely vibrant scene amongst all ranks and abilities until the early 80s. Ii is here I personally regret that things ain't what they used to be,

In reply to timjones:


Well yes certainly that, but there was more to it than just that, hard to put my finger on it... Innocence or naïvety sounds a bit wanky, but is maybe nearer the mark?

In reply to jon:


Have just seen this thread. Missed it last night - too knackered from trying to pull on plastic! I hope you don't mind me quoting you verbatim but you've expressed my sentiments far better than I could. I certainly didn't mean to inspire any controversy commenting on John's superb photo. I agree, there was definitely something back then that's gone but, while we can celebrate the past (and I do), there's just no point trying to relive it.

And some things have changed for the better. Generally climbers are nicer now than they were. There was a lot of bad behaviour in the old days; thankfully most of it seems to have gone. The deplorable treatment of women has seemingly well-nigh vanished. You almost never come across those wanky local heroes any more - what a relief! Genuine heroes are utterly down to earth - accessible to complete beginners. Where else would you find that?

You go out on the crags time after time and generally meet people who are nicer and better behaved than ever before. I'll drink to that!

Mick

In reply to Greenbanks:


You're welcome


[...]


Please tell me you're finally acting your age

In reply to jcw:


This sort of thing is not limited to climbing - as with so many other things, the spread of affluence and leisure time to more and more people means that previously élite pursuits that only the well-do to, the poor but gifted or the very determined could enjoy now get taken up by the masses. When that happens, things change and that upsets some who hanker after the days when things were maybe more exciting and focussed and the oiks couldn't interfere or mess things up too much. The steadily growing number of exceptions à la Whillans and Brown, whose successors were probably still somewhat of a pioneering group in the ' 60s and '70s have since become the mainstream. Pioneering is always fun but it can't last for ever - that's maybe the thing that some people miss.

Even Satan himself gets p!ssed off by this and hankers after 'the good old days' as can be seen from reports of a very sniffy speach he gave to the annual banquet of trainee demons one year:

"Your dreaded Principal has included in a speech full of points something like an apology for the banquet which he has set before us. Well, gentledevils, no one blames him. But it would be in vain to deny that the human souls on whose anguish we have been feasting tonight were of pretty poor quality. Not all the most skillful cookery of our tormentors could make them better than insipid. Oh, to get one's teeth again into a Farinata, a Henry VIII, or even a Hitler! There was real crackling there; something to crunch; a rage, an egotism, a cruelty only just less robust than our own. It put up a delicious resistance to being devoured. It warmed your inwards when you'd got it down. Instead of this, what have we had tonight? There was a municipal authority with Graft sauce. But personally I could not detect in him the flavour of a really passionate and brutal avarice such as delighted one in the great tycoons of the last century. Was he not unmistakably a Little Man -- a creature of the petty rake-off pocketed with a petty joke in private and denied with the stalest platitudes in his public utterances -- a grubby little nonentity who had drifted into corruption, only just realizing that he was corrupt, and chiefly because everyone else did it? Then there was the lukewarm Casserole of Adulterers. Could you find in it any trace of a fully inflamed, defiant, rebellious, insatiable lust? I couldn't. They all tasted to me like undersexed morons who had blundered or trickled into the wrong beds in automatic response to sexy advertisements, or to make themselves feel modern and emancipated, or to reassure themselves about their virility or their "normalcy," or even because they had nothing else to do. Frankly, to me who have tasted Messalina and Cassanova, they were nauseating. The Trade Unionist stuffed with sedition was perhaps a shade better. He had done some real harm. He had,not quite unknowingly, worked for bloodshed, famine, and the extinction of liberty. Yes, in a way. But what a way! He thought of those ultimate objectives so little. Toeing the party line, self-importance, and above all mere routine, were what really dominated his life.

But now comes the point. Gastronomically, all this is deplorable. But I hope none of us puts gastronomy first. Is it not, in another and far more serious way, full of hope and promise? Consider, first, the mere quantity. The quality may be wretched; but we never had souls (of a sort) in more abundance."

(C.S.Lewis *Screwtape Proposes a Toast*)

In reply to Andy Hardy:

No chance of that! So many of the comments made gets me thinking that I really am glad I don't think like the OP (troll). For me there's too much to do & not enough time to do it. Hardly a 'One day as a tiger, lifetime as a lamb' thinking, but it keeps me moving. And thank god I've never considered age in terms of years - its about mind set for me. When I lose it eventually I'm not sure what will happen (romantically, like to think of a bottle of single and a gentle fall to sleep in a hollow up on Silver How - or something)

In reply to Greenbanks:


Not really a 'troll', more the boy who cried wolf.

In reply to Andy Morley:

could you expand on that?

In reply to Greenbanks:
At the risk of sounding like an old codger (I am...), I think these words exactly capture the joyless, narrow-minded, tick-preoccupied, headline-grabbing, over-protected, mechanistic and commercialised circus that rock climbing has become in the 21st century.
________________________________
There's some truth in what you say, but I like Bill Pattison's reply.
Perhaps what we are all missing are a few good hot dry summers like we used to get when Tumbleweed Connection was clean and dozens were out on the evenings - doesn't happen any more due to the cold and the damp.
DC

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Don't agree. Nice to be called a boy though!

In reply to pebbles:


Just go climbing. I am, shortly.

In reply to Andy Morley:
If you must use terms like oik that is your choice. But the vibrant scene in the period I was talking about was precisely because it was a class mix and everyone who could climb went to the Alps and mixed on Snells Field, the Biollay and the Nash whatever their background. When you climbed with the likes of Mo Anthoine you were taken for what you were. He and others like him formed the elite.

In reply to Greenbanks:

On a more serious note, my best Padlock has a layer of lacquer on it which interferes with the mechanism.

It's a sadly varnished Era.

In reply to jcw:


Sorry, my use of irony has clearly failed in this instance. Whether the fault's yours or mine I cannot tell

In reply to Andy Morley:

Sorry, totally lost on an intellectual punter like me.

In reply to pebbles:



Perfect!

cheers
mark

In reply to jon:

For once not. However Basher shouted " bastard he,s done it" [we,d been trying for quite a while] and then of course he did it next go!

The Stranglers were on the money with 'No more heroes anymore'

Climbing, the music business - no different from anything else really.

Only upsetting for those people who need heroes. For those of us who just like to get out there, it doesn't really matter.

youtube.com/watch?v=s8xdA7vbJHw&

In reply to Morgan Woods:


Well I made the comment. So, in your view, am I, 'joyless, narrow-minded, tick-preoccupied, headline-grabbing, over-protected, mechanistic and commercialised...'?

Mick

In reply to Greenbanks:

I agree to some extent but it's inevitable IMO and in many respects it's actually better. I have often wondered if I would have taken up climbing if I was looking to now and I think the answer is probably not. I dislike the commercialism the competitiveness and the trend towards celebrity but these are exactly the things that have brought about some of the improvements. I took up climbing precisely because it was not overtly competitive and took you into wonderful environments. All the talk these days seems to be about the grade and not the quality but then I'm probably as bad as the rest now. To those who are dismissive but admit to not being there, do you really think you are in a position to comment?

Al

In reply to Greenbanks:

And yet gear is cheaper, available, much more effective. Yes, the main venues are congested and parking is hard to come by, but "back in the day" it was hard to get to them, unless you had a car. The UKC database has an enormous number of places to climb now. There is absolutely no need to visit the main venues unless you want to be in the herd.
The commercialism is a downside but there are lots of upsides.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Now as ever climbing is what you want it to be. Sure there are those obsessed with gear, those obsessed by difficulty and those who just do it to impress. But its always been so. Our heroes always pushed grades and techniques. And the mountains and seacliffs are still there by and large unsullied for those that still want to find them.

In reply to Al Evans:
When was the last time you went to Windy Ledge Al?
Stoney was really, really popular last year, and garage buttress was rammed.
Saw people sleeping on Windy ledge too.

In reply to GridNorth:
I wasn't there in the old days to compare, but I'm sure it is still true to say that one of the appealing things about climbing is the non-competitive nature. I don't believe that many people, even youths, go into climbing for the competitions. They are a minor part of the sport's interest and that will remain the case because pulling on plastic is boring and pulling on rock is exciting. Obviously,I want to exceed my best grade. Didn't Joe brown want to climb the hardest he could?

In reply to Greenbanks:

I honestly don't know. I don't go round all my old haunts from the 80's seeing if people are doing what I was doing then...and if they are or are not; what of it?

In reply to GrahamD:


A very good point indeed. They've changed less than we have.

Mick

In reply to planetmarshall:

Disappointed I can only like this once!

In reply to Greenbanks:
What a load of old rubbish!!!
I have great memories of when I started out in the 70s but climbing now is as good as it ever was you just got to stay keen ,go to loads of different places and most importantly get out of your comfort zone and push yourself as hard as you can. If you do that adventure and great experiences are pretty much guaranteed.

I don' think I have ever looked forward to a climbing year more than I am looking forward to this year and love the vibrant climbing community we have now.
Stay keen
Kipper Aged 59

In reply to Greenbanks:

On this one specific aspect of your complaint, I too was rather sniffy about climbing walls this time two years ago, thinking that it wasn't "proper" climbing and that I should be doing stuff outdoors, not in some aircraft hanger. I was wrong though - climbing walls are first-class gyms for climbers. With all of this stuff, it's not just about your relationship with the outdoors, it's also about understanding your own body. You can get away with things when you're young to some extent but as you get older, you need to have a really good appreciation of your own strengths and weaknesses if you want to carry on going outdoors without becoming a liability. Climbing walls, grading systems, ticklists and all that stuff together make a great system to help probe and improve your physical capabilities. They can be enjoyable too if you go to the right walls.

If you find yourself thinking about them sniffily, then you need to have a word with yourself. Going out into the purple whatever without the kind of insight that indoor training can provide is like tottering up Snowdon on high heels or in pointy patent pimp shoes. If you can get that insight without using artificial aids because you have balls on your balls and stomp across Ben Nevis every morning to get to work, good for you, but most modern city dwellers have to make do with other means to the same end. Why not try a sustained course of pulling plastic for what's left of the winter and find out what it's really like?

In reply to Kipper-Phil Smith:

Absolutely agree with you. See my post at 10.06 yesterday.
)

In reply to Greenbanks:
Just looked great to see you're keen and giving it plenty!
Stay Keen!
Kipper

In reply to Kipper-Phil Smith:

Oh I am and I will...if the dreaded Alzheimer stuff ever gets me I'll look at the 'advantages' - those trips (no longer walks I suspect) up Grib Goch, The Band and the delights of Rowan Route, Middlefell Buttress (are FWA going to be entered in guidebooks?)will seem like new adventures.

* First Wheelchair Ascent

In reply to Greenbanks:

“We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time.”

T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets

In reply to Greenbanks:

There have definitely been a lot of changes and I think what you mean is that in Britain we've basically run out rock. The era of exploration can only have a limited lifetime and its end was guaranteed from the time it begun. There is simply no way around it so rather than getting downhearted its better to accept that and then work out how to move forward.

We do have new crags and an infinite supply of new routes but its true they're made of plywood and plastic. The views aren't great but to every part of your body aside from your eyes the climbing is the same. And you can enjoy these places whatever the weather so I wouldn't turn your nose up these. You'll be missing one of the most exciting developments in British climbing of recent years.

But if you want to explore new places, find new rock then I think you have to consider traveling abroad. I have several friends who rarely climb outside in this country anymore. Instead they just train here and then go to some amazing climbing destination for several weeks at a time. The scope of climbing in Europe alone is simply staggering, the rock is better as is the weather most of the time. Not just new crags but whole new areas are waiting to be developed.

Having fond memories of the past is nice but not if those memories are preventing you from enjoying the present. Move forward. However much climbing may have changed the essence remains the same: climbing is still climbing.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Yes! A message for both the young and old I'd suggest, boulderer, sports-man, trad buffer, iceman (and woman)
P

In reply to Greenbanks:
I think banter and adventure and people following their own 'spirit' is still very real, but climbing & the climbing scene have grown too.

Don't mix the two up. There will always be craic and adventure for those who look for or attract it.

In reply to Mick Ward:

I think that the climbing scene is more vibrant now than I could have thought possible from the freezing interior of my crap Blacks sleeping bag on top of the diesel tank at Stoney Middleton garage every weekend as the effects of a vast volume of Marstons Pedigree wore off.
However my rose tinted glasses turn it into a golden era, because we were all young, with no responsibilities, fit and strong, and usually didn't get injured (too much).
Actually the craic now is excellent, and fragmentation has been really positive, with friends or strangers, pooling pads, banter and beta for guys with limited knee flexibility in the bouldering game.
I think the vanished era was the time when we punters pored over the new routes section of Crags magazine and actually had a chance of doing a repeat. Ben, Jerry and Johnny drew the line under that.....

In reply to Greenbanks:
I've been climbing for over 50 years and would say that on the plus side modern lightweight gear is so much safer than it was 5 decades ago. OK long long run outs on ropes that would probably break when shock loaded, with no runners were exhilarating, but to be honest they were f*cking scary and dangerous. I'd rather have today's equipment.

On the other hand I do miss the solitude of the old days of the crags and hills which are now so crowded. The days when you could walk up to Dinas Cromlech, the East Face of Tryfan or to Gimmer on a nice sunny day and find them completely empty, or do a traverse of the Snowdon Horse Shoe in brilliant neve conditions without meeting another soul all day have long long gone..., although it is still possible to find this sort of solitude in the Scottish Highlands.

It's the same with the Alps, and this is one of the reasons why, in recent years, I have been attracted to explore the lesser known areas of the Pyrenees, the Spanish Sierras and mountains of some of the Mediterranean islands. In 1966 when I skied the Haute Route we were the only party doing it. We had keys to the huts and had to dig out the entrances before we could open the doors and get the fires lit - I doubt that you would find that these days.

In reply to Trangia:

It depends on where you live and what you're getting outside for, but you can find decent solitude in busier places like the Peak if you time it right, in going early morning or when people are going for tea. It's no good if you want to be there for the day, but it can be found, and there's quieter parts of Stanage too.

It always seemed funny to me how the sheep at Burbage seemed to appreciate the solitude too, in going closer to the crags after people had gone home, it was as if there were glad.

I gather it's miniature cattle which graze there now, to change the ground cover so it's more moorland coverage throughout the site, I don't know if sheep are still there.

In reply to Greenbanks:


Oh, for goodness' sake, stop wasting your time whinging on the internet and go and climb something. It'll make you feel better, it usually does.

In reply to PATTISON Bill:


I absolutely agree with your sentiments (which is why I added the winky smiley). Most 'older' climbers I know (a category I'm on the verge of) are still kicking ass and don't feel the need to belittle the up and coming generation.

In reply to Trangia:

I don't think the mountain crags are always busy. In the last few years I've done classics like main Wall, Mur Y Niwl and even Crackstone Rib, and I'm sure they are quieter than they would have been 40 years ago.

In reply to Greenbanks:


I think the whole 'troll' thing has had it's day, the internet is part of real life now, people expect sincerity like they would in any conversation.

It's not working for you, most replies are still to your OP, people don't read whole threads.

In reply to stp:



What you say is probably true for some traditional core areas but isn't necessarily true for the UK as a whole, nor for some seemingly well-developed areas as plenty of new discoveries have recently been made at Tremadog for example. There's no real need to go abroad either, unless that's for better weather etc., as there's plenty of opportunities for both exploration and new routes in the UK's less mainstream as well as established climbing areas. The following is just by way of a few examples:

Martin Crocker has recently found excellent new routes on Cadair Idris and Dysynni's Craig yr Aderyn (Bird Rock). Terry Taylor and others are continuing to find new crags and new routes in the Rhinogydd, where the pace of development is quite staggering - with well over 1000 new routes since the last guide. Stu Day is beavering away productively in the Berwynion while some 800+ new routes - single pitch and multi pitch trad, sport and winter - have been discovered further south in Central Wales during the past 5 years. Further south both Barry Clarke and Gavin Cytlau in particular have found a wealth of new routes in North Pembroke while Steve Quinton, Dave Talbot, Henry Castle and others are finding new route after new route in South Pembroke. In the Avon area, Mark Davies, Warner Mauri, Martin Bazley, Guy Percival and others are like new route machines. The North York Moors are similarly being developed by Franco Cookson & Co. with the addition of some bold, hard new climbs. I could go on .....

IMHO, we're far far from running out of new rock to climb in the UK. There's still plenty to be discovered; it's just a question of looking in the right places, very much a case of 'seek and ye shall find'.

I began climbing in the late 1960s and while the anarchic, non-commercial, close-knit atmosphere of the 1970s and 1980s has long gone (and is probably missed to some extent by all those who experienced it), it seems to me that British climbing is still in good health. As exemplified above, there is still plenty of scope for adventure and you don't necessarily have to pull on coloured plastic to make new discoveries, unless that's your preference of course.

Dave

In reply to Greenbanks:

Good thread by the way!

In reply to Mick Ward:






Too often passed over in favour of The Waste Land, pity

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Yes indeed. I look lovingly at photos of the Mournes, compare them with the sepia images in my memory and wonder what I'd feel going back there fifty years later. Would it be disappointing because times and people have gone forever or would the enduring love of those quiet hills be what really matters? I hope it's the latter.

Re your earlier post, yes, the Moon, Moffatt, Dawes generation severely curtailed hope of repeats. But there's a ton of 70s classics in Wales and (shockingly) the Peak/Yorkshire that I still haven't done. Always leaving them for the day when I felt I'd be good enough. What a sucker! I've probably been good enough for the last 20+ years but certainly won't be for much longer. Finger extraction required!

Really, for nearly all of us, almost whatever state we're in, there's great stuff out there still to do. I still remember Grooved Arete as the best V Diff I've ever done (well, apart from Heaven Crack). And I hadn't done that until about 10 years ago.

There's great stuff out there still to do...

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

If I ever leave Sheffield I think I'll always be drawn back to the east Peak District and the places I grew up walking and climbing around. I think some places can almost become like a part of your sense of self, so you can need to revisit them, and that the peacefulness found in natural places is always soothing even when life changes.

In reply to Timmd:

That's how I feel about the Mournes - although, after so long now, I'm a little afraid of going back. It seemed such an intimate relationship once. They're never very far from my mind.

Mick

In reply to Mike Stretford:


Hardly the point. The thread has given me a lot of food for thought - maybe it has others too. Reflecting on our various mountain experiences is a good thing, and I have been stimulated by the various talking points raised.
Besides, the trigger for the OP was that delightful photo by JCW from 1966 - and I think it has at the very least drawn the attention of some to its quality. If that solely is the case then I'm very glad 'its not working'

)

In reply to Mick Ward:


It probably won't be as bad/weird as you think it might be.

In reply to Trangia:


Not necessarily true. Last year, in July, on a Saturday with great weather, my mate and I had Milestone Buttress completely to ourselves from about 1000 to 1600 when another pair arrived for a quick route before dinner. There was a group of boulderers on some rocks right next to one of the car parking areas, and walkers heading up the various paths, but on the buttress itself, just us!

In reply to Greenbanks: Ah, a bit sour. Suggest you get more of a life and chill out. Life moves on so move with it or do your own thing without getting twitter and bisted After 50 years climbing it's still great, so lighten up buddy and step onto the rock with a smile on your face..

In reply to Greenbanks:

Like everything in life, times change, things move on and are different. Some things change for the better, some for the worse - depends on your perspective and eyeware

As someone who started at the end of the 60's, and for whom the 70's was 'the decade' I think there was a different character then, but that doesn't automatically mean it was better.

Climbing did seem more spontaneous, more anarchic, more underground and more amateur than it is today, which gave it a sort of secret grubby, out there charm that only those 'in the club, could understand and appreciate - and it was a much smaller and dare I say, cosier club?

But then again, that could be because we tend to look back on our formative and glory days with understandably huge affection?

But let's not forget the less than attractive aspects such as being permenantly potless, kipping rough in shitholes, crappy gear, 6 hours to hitch from Manchester to Stanage etc etc.

Climbing and climbers aren't really any different today than in the era many of us old farts call the 'halcyon' era. It's just that like everything else in the world, it's more commercialised and professional. It doesn't operate in the same quaint off the grid vacuum it used too, because nothing does anymore - apart from possibly worm charming.

But as others have said, the crags and mountains are still there, and you can still have whatever adventures you want, in whatever style you want.

Its all down to how you approach your climbing, and hasn't that always been the case - even in the 'halcyon' days?

Personally speaking, I've hopefully still got plenty of big adventures to look forward too - and thanks to modern gear and technology, I might enjoy them as much when I'm doing them, as when I'm looking back on them

In reply to Timmd:


I hope so. Thanks for understanding my nervousness. (Like meeting your first love again?)

Mick

In reply to Greenbanks:

I've been climbing in the US and Canada, and a tiny bit in the alps, since 1957. I've seen multiple genres and equipment come and go. Here's my take on vanishing eras.

1. Every era is destined to achieve " sadly now-vanished" status in the eyes of a generation, currently in the business of ruining everything, but soon enough relegated to role of elder statesman, where their ever more shrill protestations will fall on the deaf ears of the next cohort charging on.

2. Crowds. Oh yeah, it has gotten a lot more crowded. Sure, you can have the odd day of solitude in a typically popular area, but those are exceptions to be savored. The ambiance of many places has been changed significantly, and not at all for the better, by the increase in climbing population density.

3. Information. We all love it, and I ain't givin' it up. But you know what?---there's too much. Even routes in popular areas were more exciting when we knew less about them. We used to have nameless dread; now we know exactly what to be afraid of and when---if there is anything left to be afraid of at all.

4. Equipment. There's so much more of it and it is much better. Most climbs have been made safer and easier. Hallelujah! I'd probably have had to quit years ago if not for these improvements. Keep 'em coming!

5. Training and gyms. Ok now this is a really serious problem---I can't even begin to keep up with ten year-old girls. Even worse, the much younger fitter bolder me couldn't have kept up with them either. This was not supposed to happen to me in my golden years.

6. Sport climbing. See Item 5 for opening material. Royal Robbins said, "sport climbing is the child that wants to eat its mother." I think he has a point. The challenge for climbing is to preserve genre diversity and not let it become all one thing.

In reply to rgold:


Wonderful quote!



Absolutely.

Mick

In reply to Greenbanks: It is a great thread I agree, with some thought put into the OP, and some excellent responses putting dew eyed nostalgia back in its box. I just wish people would stick to their guns instead of pulling out this 'troll' excuse.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

<I just wish people would stick to their guns instead of pulling out this 'troll' excuse>

Not sure I understand...if 'tongue in cheek' approximates to 'troll' then that was my intention. Can't see what the irritant is really. But maybe its just that you have a different perspective on forum protocols etc. Perhaps that's a discussion to be had in another thread?.

In reply to Greenbanks:




Forums aren't what they were when I first started using them in the early 80s!

In reply to Greenbanks:

I think it can still be what you make of it. There is much more diversity now, from sweaty plastic pulling in a gym to big mountain days. That is surely good?

I would say it is still very possible to enjoy solitutude, even in popular areas if you pick the right crag (or can go midweek). I'm often surprised how few people there are on good crags. I'd still bet you to do the Lower Amphitheatre Wall without much company most weekends ! I had a brilliant day do VSs on rough rock 30 mins easy walk from the A5 in Ogwen last summer.

It's very difficult to recapture the thrill of the novelty of those early days but maybe familiarity can breed it's own charm.

In reply to jimtitt:


I think that's very true. And if one gazes beyond our shoreline its quite easy to think that Golden Age of climbing is still in its infancy.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I think the next few years are going to be very quiet for trad headpointing. There seem to be very few young people waiting in the wings - especially in the backwaters where there is still much to be developed - Lakes/Northumberland/Moors etc..

It's something that isn't really spoken about any more, but I think there has been a massive shift towards sport in the last couple of years. It was always a trend whilst I've been climbing, but I think the growing popularity of foreign climbing destinations, twinned with poor weather in the UK has tempted a lot of our elite climbers away from home exploration. Sponsored athletes need to be climbing things! A two year trad project is pretty boring. Where the famous climbers go, the young guns follow..

If Pete Whittaker moved to Scotland, I'm sure you'd see something quite different.

In reply to Greenbanks:

harrumph! when i was a boy we used to go out climbing, not sit around on internet forums.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Health and safety killed rocking climbing in the uk. Im waiting to start rock climbing on mars mountains... though I expect will be quite a while till then.

In reply to Greenbanks:

Climbing is rubbish and boring, always has been and always will be.

I wish I could afford a mountain bike.

R

In reply to Roberttaylor: Mountain biking isn't what it was

http://vintagecrank.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/fat-tire-bikes-May-1983....

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Some crags suit bolts and some don't. A lot of people who climb mostly indoors will never understand what it is like to climb outdoors.They are the ones who miss out.If they want to breathe in clouds of chalk dust and pay for their climbing,they leave more routes free for us outside. It seems fewer people solo nowadays.Routes can still be dangerous even with modern kit. What gets me most is how few of my old projects and Dawes' old projects are being attempted.Quite a lack of imagination.People just want to repeat ancient challenges and write it up on this site or use videos to get advertising or sponsorship. Climbing is not moving forward because of this .

Just to remind you all,the roof direct to Wuthering IS POSSIBLE. Mitch

In reply to Greenbanks:
I completely agree and I'm in my teens. It's all about who climbs the best, it's all about the competitions, no one takes the time to go outside and just enjoy it. Only the older generation understand what climbing is about. This understanding went with the 90s where heavy head pointing became normal. No adventure, no Unknown, just climbing to get a hard route done and not an enjoyable one. That is why most new routes don't get three stars.

In reply to Dawes of Time:

Head pointing opens the door to harder onsites by removing doubt in your own abillity, part of a learning exspirence for us mear mortals that love to climb in all Styles.
Andy Gardner

In reply to Dawes of Time:


Funny that.


Listed as one of your best climbing experiences.

Get a grip.

In reply to Greenbanks:



... and a great pity you felt the need to, in my opinion. You've taken a bit of wistful nostalgia and used it as an opportunity for a mean-spirited and judgemental swipe at a large number of people.

One of the worst posts I've ever read on UKC.

In reply to Dawes of Time:


Utter nonsense!

In reply to Dawes of Time:

Your only post ever on Ukc and you come out with that pile of crap.
oh well.

In reply to Goucho:


Interestingly you never see any women or ethnic minorities writing about the halcyon days of the 60s and 70s. I'm sure that if you were a young, straight white male it was all marvellous.

In reply to Mike Stretford:


Indeed; he needs to get one like this!

https://www.mountainproject.com/v/106572757

In reply to jimtitt:

Just for the record Jim, they stopped quarrying at Stoney some time ago. It's just the road noise now!

In reply to planetmarshall:

It was marvellous.

And what made it so was that we were a rag tag bunch from every walk of life, full of wide eyed arrogance, wild enthusiasm and an untamed spirit for adventure.

And boy did we chase those adventures. From the gritstone escarpments twinkling like precious jewels, to the alps, Yosemite and the greater ranges beyond.

Those climbing adventures made our hearts race with the magic of it all, and sometimes, it made our hearts ache for those who never came back from them.

And do you know what, sometimes, when I'm in reflective mood at the top of a crag, or on the way back from a summit, if the wind is blowing in the right direction, I can still hear their voices and their laughter, carried through the air as fresh and vibrant as if they'd only just left their lips, momentarily wrapping around me in their soft warm embrace.

It was a long time ago, when the world was a different place. A time, when for a fleeting moment, all we were, were climbers.

In reply to Goucho:

Well said!


Chris

In reply to Goucho:

What a load of "ee the world today" bollocks. But I guess even cynicism isn't as good as it was back then.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Yeah - odd that isn't it!

In reply to Willi Crater:
As a matter of fact I suspect there are quite a few women who look back on that era with similar nostalgia - there were just fewer of them. And as for ethnic minorities - we're talking an era where ethnic minorities had very little time or resource to do anything other than struggle to get established in 'normal' life, let alone get established in some esoteric and vaguely anti-establishment counter-culture. If they weren't climbing (and there were a few - Sid, Sid, the Karachi kid and a few others) I don't think for a moment they would have had any difficulty becoming part of the scene.

Just because you're young it doesn't mean you have to spout rent-a-gob nonsense, you know.

Edit. I've just noticed your age. Being middle age doesn't mean you have to spout nonsense either, and you've less excuse.

In reply to Greenbanks:
I was always told 'climbing is what ever you want it to be' , therefore is free from the constraints of narrow minded people (like yourself possibly.) if you want to compete and pull plastic do it , if you want the adventure of trad do it , if you want to climb 'hard' on sport climbs do it , if you want to Boulder do it.....hell if you want to climb buildings give it a go , climbing is free from one big catagorie and to have people constantly winging about the 'good ole days ' and how it's soulless and climbing buy numbers and how all covered in sponsors we are wa WA WA , so what the worlds still out there just get off your Arse and enjoy it!.

In reply to Goucho:

Agree with Chris - well said!

Mick

In reply to leewil86:

'if you want to Boulder do it'

Oh for God's sake, people always have to go just too far.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:




What's your excuse then? Also a bit odd that you're attacking me not the poster that expressed the sentiments. Still, I suppose being elderly (you brought age into it) dents your mental acumen.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I had a look at this week's top ascents.Great Flake in Yorks has had quite a few ascents.I did it back in the day.A couple of hefty ground falls,no mats,after ab inspection, and then led.Good to see that people are willing to solo it above mats.Impressive.
There are still some people willing to have a go,in their own style.I spent several hours with Craig,advising on a name for the route.He still called it Great Flake.

In reply to Greenbanks:

So I was walking my dog this morning when I realised Quincy is on 'yourtv' at 11 am! , get in!!!! Climbing will have to wait!

In reply to Greenbanks:


Has it? I mean I presume it hasn't for you and it doesn't feel like it has for me though I'm young ish, middle class, started in the 90s, never smoked or owned a hemp rope so perhaps I've never been a proper climber or perhaps I have been a proper climber having proper adventures (whatever they are), perhaps it's just everyone else that has lost their way...

Ok, indoor walls have made climbing in the dark evenings after work convenient but they don't stop me going out for a potter up a rocky hill from time to time or taking a week climbing on the coast somewhere nice with friends or just wandering along an old familiar crag enjoying routes I've loved countless times before as the sun sets over a view I can't get enough of. Taking a couple of years to get fit and try a new (to me) climbing game hasn't robbed my love of a weekend dossing in the quarries exploring new areas or an evening just playing on rock after work with a mate. I don't feel my bouldering mat has spoiled the joy of waking up with a slightly thick head resting on coiled rope, cold toes at the water's edge looking up at the crags pleased with my plan to walk in from the pub the night before rather than the morning after. We might have our own individual golden eras but the idea that climbing was somehow better in the past and is now purely a facile exercise in commercialism doesn't really stand up.
jk

In reply to jkarran:


Days of heaven.

Mick

In reply to jkarran:

Definitely not, good post. I see climbers coming from a wall background, many who don't know much about any climbing scene. Their sense of adventure is there to see and they go on to have the same adventures as the OP had in his heyday (whether or not they smoke, and whatever they do smoke!)

In reply to paul mitchell:




Has been for a long time now though Paul, has to be the longest standing and now THE last great problem at Stanage.

In reply to planetmarshall:


What makes you think they were all straight? Or straight male come to that?

In reply to Al Evans:


I don't think that's what I said?

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


Well that's kind of the point. Not everyone looks back on the 60s and 70s as some kind of golden age, climber or not. In terms of having the freedom to live your life without fear of persecution, ridicule or pressure to conform, the present day is better in every conceivable detail. Bollocks to the 60s.

In reply to planetmarshall:


How do you know?

In reply to jon:


Due to the fabulous invention of the written word, which allows us to gain knowledge of eras and events we do not have direct experience of.

In reply to planetmarshall:


The 60s were brilliant, as were the 70s - you had to be there to realise it though




Chris

In reply to jon:

I don't think he's saying things are perfect, just 'better'. There's still hate crimes and racism/homophobia, and stereotypes held and inequality of opportunity etc, but generally things have improved since the 60's and 70's.

In reply to Timmd:

No you missed my point. He doesn't know. He's decided on the basis of what he's heard. Which could be bollocks. Or not. See Chris's reply above.

In reply to Chris Craggs:


touché.

In reply to jon:
There's accounts of what would happen to people then, though, which can be compared with now. Like the only black child in the year having to deal with racism all the time, or the police beating up gay people in Manchester during the 70's and early 80's, that kind of thing, or people taking the piss when buying from Asian shops and offering less than the price, I gather it was taking advantage from knowing they were desperate to make money.

During the 90's, and unaware of this as a teenager at the time, I offered the only money I had for something and thought it was strange that the Asian shop keeper seemed to really really dislike it but sold me the fruit anyway, but in hindsight I can see why he reacted like that. At the time I'd been up all night clubbing and just really fancied some fruit.

In reply to Greenbanks:
You've got tons to ponder on, the next time you're out on the fells. Enough to knock up a quick "Country Diary".

As an aside, is Johnny Lockley still running the Rule ? I think that's the last place I saw you.

In reply to Mostro:

Ah, Hartleys....there's nostalgia in buckets. How far south does it travel I wonder?