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Aaargh!
Have just spent an hour untangling and flaking my rope after letting my (very occasional!) second coil it. What the heck did he do to it to get so many twists in it?!!!!!
I noticed he was sort of doing an Alpine coil, but without it being over the body, and obviously it is best then to coil back off. He isn't too experienced, and it was cold and blowy at the top, so I didn't intervene at the time...'och, I'll sort it when I get home' thought I. Well, I certainly did have to!
So how did he manage it?
How do you coach so as not to end up in such a situation?
Is it that he was gripping the rope as he coiled, rather than lt it run through his fingers? My wife tends to do that with household cables, and everything ends up twisted a la 1950's cables that my Gran used to have.
It's not the World's most vexing problem at the moment I accept, but whilst I cool down over a cuppa, I thought I'd post
Have just spent an hour untangling and flaking my rope after letting my (very occasional!) second coil it. What the heck did he do to it to get so many twists in it?!!!!!
I noticed he was sort of doing an Alpine coil, but without it being over the body, and obviously it is best then to coil back off. He isn't too experienced, and it was cold and blowy at the top, so I didn't intervene at the time...'och, I'll sort it when I get home' thought I. Well, I certainly did have to!
So how did he manage it?
How do you coach so as not to end up in such a situation?
Is it that he was gripping the rope as he coiled, rather than lt it run through his fingers? My wife tends to do that with household cables, and everything ends up twisted a la 1950's cables that my Gran used to have.
It's not the World's most vexing problem at the moment I accept, but whilst I cool down over a cuppa, I thought I'd post
4
2
In reply to JohnnyW:
I'm not sure on the naming, but if by alpine coil you mean round and round (the kind you'd usually take around one side of your body when short roping) the twists are almost inevitable. Any coiling that involves repeatedly wrapping the rope in the same direction will tend to twist it. Just teach you mate to coil using this method or some variant:
http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/videos/how-to-coil-a-rope/
I'm not sure on the naming, but if by alpine coil you mean round and round (the kind you'd usually take around one side of your body when short roping) the twists are almost inevitable. Any coiling that involves repeatedly wrapping the rope in the same direction will tend to twist it. Just teach you mate to coil using this method or some variant:
http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/videos/how-to-coil-a-rope/
In reply to JohnnyW:
Your should see my wife's hairdryer cable.
I had the same issue after out last climb, it was frozen after topping out so the rope got slung in the bag pronto, took my half an hour to sort it out when I got home. lesson learned for me to do it properly no matter how cold I am.
Your should see my wife's hairdryer cable.
I had the same issue after out last climb, it was frozen after topping out so the rope got slung in the bag pronto, took my half an hour to sort it out when I got home. lesson learned for me to do it properly no matter how cold I am.
In reply to JohnnyW:
When you coil a rope in one hand, just like you do an electrical cable you need to add a 1/4 twist each time you do a loop. If you don't you end up with a really twisted rope as you seem to have. It's a bit difficult to explain but say you are holding the coils in your left hand, as you place the next loop into it twist a 1/4 rotation away from you each time. Maybe try it on the end of the rope.
I knew my time pioneering at Scouts would come in useful some time...
When you coil a rope in one hand, just like you do an electrical cable you need to add a 1/4 twist each time you do a loop. If you don't you end up with a really twisted rope as you seem to have. It's a bit difficult to explain but say you are holding the coils in your left hand, as you place the next loop into it twist a 1/4 rotation away from you each time. Maybe try it on the end of the rope.
I knew my time pioneering at Scouts would come in useful some time...
3
In reply to JohnnyW:
Many years ago I was shown this method and I have used it ever since. Takes slightly longer than some methods but has the advantage that you don't have to flake it out before climbing and it never twists.
youtube.com/watch?v=_El020BNuUg&
Al
Many years ago I was shown this method and I have used it ever since. Takes slightly longer than some methods but has the advantage that you don't have to flake it out before climbing and it never twists.
youtube.com/watch?v=_El020BNuUg&
Al
2
In reply to GridNorth:
I find it easier to do in the hand this way:
vimeo.com/85435983 (I finish using a different method to this)
I personally prefer coiling from one end as I think coiling from the middle is asking for more tangles if you don't uncoil the rope in the same way it was coiled (so in the coil from the middle case you'd need to uncoil from both the ends simultaneously)
I find it easier to do in the hand this way:
vimeo.com/85435983 (I finish using a different method to this)
I personally prefer coiling from one end as I think coiling from the middle is asking for more tangles if you don't uncoil the rope in the same way it was coiled (so in the coil from the middle case you'd need to uncoil from both the ends simultaneously)
Post edited at 11:04
2
In reply to CurlyStevo:
A friend of mine was climbing with Joe Brown in Morocco a few years ago. He was coiling his rope using the Alpine Butterfly method and Joe apparently said "I see you are doing that the tw*ts way".
Al
A friend of mine was climbing with Joe Brown in Morocco a few years ago. He was coiling his rope using the Alpine Butterfly method and Joe apparently said "I see you are doing that the tw*ts way".
Al
7
2
In reply to JohnnyW:
Run it through a belay plate from end to end a couple of times, to get the twists out. Will help stop it from tangling up next time you use it as they will be inherent in the rope... Until you do a long abseil or something.
Run it through a belay plate from end to end a couple of times, to get the twists out. Will help stop it from tangling up next time you use it as they will be inherent in the rope... Until you do a long abseil or something.
1
In reply to GridNorth:
They both amount to the same thing no? They are all called Butterfly Coils (the alpine butterfly is a knot AFAIK). One goes around your neck and the other your hand as far as I can tell. It's slower to coil around your neck IMO and not as nice if the rope is dirty or wet.
They both amount to the same thing no? They are all called Butterfly Coils (the alpine butterfly is a knot AFAIK). One goes around your neck and the other your hand as far as I can tell. It's slower to coil around your neck IMO and not as nice if the rope is dirty or wet.
Post edited at 11:34
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I can't coil in one hand, as I have ridiculously small hands. I do the Butterfly over my neck, and as long as you lay it out with both halves separate, it doesn't tangle.
I never put any twists in as the chap says above, but then you don't need to unless you are coiling in a circular style do you.
I can't coil in one hand, as I have ridiculously small hands. I do the Butterfly over my neck, and as long as you lay it out with both halves separate, it doesn't tangle.
I never put any twists in as the chap says above, but then you don't need to unless you are coiling in a circular style do you.
In reply to ryan p:
Yeah, my wife is the same, with all cables. It drives me to distraction. It's because she grips it as she coils. Grrr
> Your should see my wife's hairdryer cable.
Yeah, my wife is the same, with all cables. It drives me to distraction. It's because she grips it as she coils. Grrr
In reply to Oujmik:
That's the same as Mr.Gridnorth's Canadians. As I say, I am going to have a play at that, as I have always laid them out over my shoulders separately, and I like the look of that. I will report back (before teaching my second!)
That's the same as Mr.Gridnorth's Canadians. As I say, I am going to have a play at that, as I have always laid them out over my shoulders separately, and I like the look of that. I will report back (before teaching my second!)
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The benefit of coiling from the middle is that you get two loose ends which can be used to fasten the rope on your back rucksack style. This is really useful for descents when you're cragging and hence not climbing with a pack.
If you're just going to sling it over your shoulders - e.g. for the walk out - then coiling form one end is better 'cos the rope doesn't need flaking.
Horses for courses innit.
The benefit of coiling from the middle is that you get two loose ends which can be used to fasten the rope on your back rucksack style. This is really useful for descents when you're cragging and hence not climbing with a pack.
If you're just going to sling it over your shoulders - e.g. for the walk out - then coiling form one end is better 'cos the rope doesn't need flaking.
Horses for courses innit.
1
In reply to Clinger:
In affect the method I have shown is coiling from the end. You can still fasten it rucksack style to the shoulders but with the advantage you just have to lay it down and start climbing instead of flaking it out beforehand to make sure it does not tangle.
Al
In affect the method I have shown is coiling from the end. You can still fasten it rucksack style to the shoulders but with the advantage you just have to lay it down and start climbing instead of flaking it out beforehand to make sure it does not tangle.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
Interesting. How do you do that with only one end?
Oh wait... Do you just pull a bit of the "starting end" out to give the second "strap" (if you see what I mean)?
Interesting. How do you do that with only one end?
Oh wait... Do you just pull a bit of the "starting end" out to give the second "strap" (if you see what I mean)?
In reply to Clinger:
Yes. You just have to take a little more care, when you lay the rope down, that you start taking from the top. It only takes me a few seconds longer to coil this way now that I have the hang of it. It does need a little bit of concentration the first few times you do it but soon becomes second nature.
Al
Yes. You just have to take a little more care, when you lay the rope down, that you start taking from the top. It only takes me a few seconds longer to coil this way now that I have the hang of it. It does need a little bit of concentration the first few times you do it but soon becomes second nature.
Al
In reply to Clinger:
You can solve this two other ways coiling from the end:
- Leave a long strand when you start so you have too long ends
- Attach the rope just using one end so its half of the rope rucksack you make ( I normally do this and it functions just fine)
> The benefit of coiling from the middle is that you get two loose ends which can be used to fasten the rope on your back rucksack style. This is really useful for descents when you're cragging and hence not climbing with a pack.
You can solve this two other ways coiling from the end:
- Leave a long strand when you start so you have too long ends
- Attach the rope just using one end so its half of the rope rucksack you make ( I normally do this and it functions just fine)
In reply to JohnnyW:
I actually lay it over my shoulders separately too, normally in a single strand rather than doubled too, this was just the first video that popped up showing butterfly coils. It's the butterfly element that's important I think as it prevents the progressive twisting of the rope that occurs with a 'round and round' motion.
I actually lay it over my shoulders separately too, normally in a single strand rather than doubled too, this was just the first video that popped up showing butterfly coils. It's the butterfly element that's important I think as it prevents the progressive twisting of the rope that occurs with a 'round and round' motion.
1
In reply to JohnnyW:
I find putting twists in to a rope when doing round coils for throwing when abbing is the last thing you want to do, instead I just let the loops form natural figures of eight, when I get to the end of the rope there is not lots of twists in it, so when it uncoils in the air there is not lots of twists to come out. I've tested this with a friend who eventually came around to my way of thinking when his ropes consistently tangled when thrown more often than mine did!
> I can't coil in one hand, as I have ridiculously small hands. I do the Butterfly over my neck, and as long as you lay it out with both halves separate, it doesn't tangle.
> I never put any twists in as the chap says above, but then you don't need to unless you are coiling in a circular style do you.
I find putting twists in to a rope when doing round coils for throwing when abbing is the last thing you want to do, instead I just let the loops form natural figures of eight, when I get to the end of the rope there is not lots of twists in it, so when it uncoils in the air there is not lots of twists to come out. I've tested this with a friend who eventually came around to my way of thinking when his ropes consistently tangled when thrown more often than mine did!
In reply to JohnnyW:
I can't believe I'm reading all this. 'Coiling' is a last resort as it introduces twists into the rope. Loop or better still in reply to original poster, just feeding the rope into the sack is by far the quickest way on top of a cold wintry scottish peak and sort out any kinks back at a base, in the warm!
I can't believe I'm reading all this. 'Coiling' is a last resort as it introduces twists into the rope. Loop or better still in reply to original poster, just feeding the rope into the sack is by far the quickest way on top of a cold wintry scottish peak and sort out any kinks back at a base, in the warm!
1
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The original and still the best!
Though it has to be said it IS rather more tedious with 60m ropes, as opposed to the 120 foot (35m) ones we had to begin with.
> I find it easier to do in the hand this way:
> vimeo.com/85435983 (I finish using a different method to this)
> I personally prefer coiling from one end
The original and still the best!
Though it has to be said it IS rather more tedious with 60m ropes, as opposed to the 120 foot (35m) ones we had to begin with.
In reply to Martin Bennett:
Is there any difference between doing it around your neck or over your hand? I've done both and think not, the resulting coils are the same IMO.
Is there any difference between doing it around your neck or over your hand? I've done both and think not, the resulting coils are the same IMO.
Post edited at 23:40
In reply to JohnnyW:
If cold wet windy just unbuckle harness cram into sack and feed rope in finish with seconds harness, job done. It won't kink and will deploy reasonably easily.
If cold wet windy just unbuckle harness cram into sack and feed rope in finish with seconds harness, job done. It won't kink and will deploy reasonably easily.
4
In reply to JohnnyW:
Has the second been suitably punished yet?
You did sound very cross..... ......
Has the second been suitably punished yet?
You did sound very cross..... ......
1
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Whichever you prefer.
What has not been pointed out yet is that you need to uncoil properly.
If this is not the exact reverse of the coiling method kinks/ twists in the rope result
Lap coiling double means that it is very hard to get the uncoiling wrong.
> Is there any difference between doing it around your neck or over your hand? I've done both and think not, the resulting coils are the same IMO.
Whichever you prefer.
What has not been pointed out yet is that you need to uncoil properly.
If this is not the exact reverse of the coiling method kinks/ twists in the rope result
Lap coiling double means that it is very hard to get the uncoiling wrong.
In reply to Rick Graham:
Lap coil and butterfly are synonymous as far as I can tell. The benefit of both methods is there are very few twists if done right. However if you coil from the middle and then expect one end to smoothly uncoil without uncoiling the other at the same time, tangles are likely.
Lap coil and butterfly are synonymous as far as I can tell. The benefit of both methods is there are very few twists if done right. However if you coil from the middle and then expect one end to smoothly uncoil without uncoiling the other at the same time, tangles are likely.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
That's the advantage of the method I suggested earlier. It's lap coiled but the rope pulls straight off the top if you lay it down the right way.
Al
That's the advantage of the method I suggested earlier. It's lap coiled but the rope pulls straight off the top if you lay it down the right way.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
I'm guessing Joe Brown's 'twats method' was not the butterfly/ lap coil done around the hand (rather than the neck which after all result in the same thing). More likely it was simply winding the rope in a big loop, that does result in twists especially if you try and make round loops - rather than letting it naturally form a figure of eight as each 'loop'. I use the latter method for throwing the rope when abbing and find it normally throws cleanly.
I'm guessing Joe Brown's 'twats method' was not the butterfly/ lap coil done around the hand (rather than the neck which after all result in the same thing). More likely it was simply winding the rope in a big loop, that does result in twists especially if you try and make round loops - rather than letting it naturally form a figure of eight as each 'loop'. I use the latter method for throwing the rope when abbing and find it normally throws cleanly.
In reply to GridNorth:
I think you're failing to grasp there is no (or very little at least) difference whether you form butterfly coils around your neck or your hand, either way they are butterfly coils. IMO they are best done from one end of the rope, not the middle. As pointed out lap coil and butterfly coil are (also!) synonymous to some people at least. Other web sites list the lap coil as the round coil that is prone to twists.
I think you're failing to grasp there is no (or very little at least) difference whether you form butterfly coils around your neck or your hand, either way they are butterfly coils. IMO they are best done from one end of the rope, not the middle. As pointed out lap coil and butterfly coil are (also!) synonymous to some people at least. Other web sites list the lap coil as the round coil that is prone to twists.
Post edited at 10:59
In reply to Rick Graham:
God, I must be bored today... absolutely this. The only way you can guarantee this is to not let anyone else uncoil it.
> Whichever you prefer.
> What has not been pointed out yet is that you need to uncoil properly.
> If this is not the exact reverse of the coiling method kinks/ twists in the rope result
God, I must be bored today... absolutely this. The only way you can guarantee this is to not let anyone else uncoil it.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I'm not failing to grasp anything! The method I am suggesting coils from one end of the rope so I am agreeing with you.
Al
I'm not failing to grasp anything! The method I am suggesting coils from one end of the rope so I am agreeing with you.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
Your line of reasoning does seem somewhat confused I'm afraid.
Earlier you seemed to imply that anyone using the 'alpine butterfly' coiling method was a tw*t (according to Joe Brown). What the alpine butterfly coiling method is I don't know but I use the butterfly method and I did maybe wrongly take slight offence. Now you are saying lap coils are the way forward are they not the same as the butterfly method?
This website has them listed as an inferior method btw (not that I'm agreeing with it, just saying)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaineer%27s_coil
Your line of reasoning does seem somewhat confused I'm afraid.
Earlier you seemed to imply that anyone using the 'alpine butterfly' coiling method was a tw*t (according to Joe Brown). What the alpine butterfly coiling method is I don't know but I use the butterfly method and I did maybe wrongly take slight offence. Now you are saying lap coils are the way forward are they not the same as the butterfly method?
This website has them listed as an inferior method btw (not that I'm agreeing with it, just saying)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountaineer%27s_coil
Post edited at 11:09
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Can't see why I caused offence. I was simply quoting a famous climber, admittedly 3rd hand, and linking to a video that IMO shows a better method of coiling a rope that does not cause twists. I don't care how others coil their rope and I care even less about what they call it, I was simply proposing an alternative method that solves the twisting problem. I'm allowed to be confused at my age.
Al
Can't see why I caused offence. I was simply quoting a famous climber, admittedly 3rd hand, and linking to a video that IMO shows a better method of coiling a rope that does not cause twists. I don't care how others coil their rope and I care even less about what they call it, I was simply proposing an alternative method that solves the twisting problem. I'm allowed to be confused at my age.
Al
1
In reply to GridNorth:
OK fair enough, normally I read your posts with interest as they usually reflect your wealth of experience.
The 'twats' post you made was in reply to a link I posted regarding butterfly coils as a good method of coiling a rope.
You still haven't really addressed the points I made:
Do you use lap coils or butterfly coils?
Are they the same thing as an alpine butterfly coil?
Are we both twats?
OK fair enough, normally I read your posts with interest as they usually reflect your wealth of experience.
The 'twats' post you made was in reply to a link I posted regarding butterfly coils as a good method of coiling a rope.
You still haven't really addressed the points I made:
Do you use lap coils or butterfly coils?
Are they the same thing as an alpine butterfly coil?
Are we both twats?
Post edited at 13:19
In reply to CurlyStevo:
It was most certainly not an insult aimed at you or anyone else for that matter although reading through the chain of posts I could have worded it a little better as it was a follow up. I trust we are still "friends"
With regards to whether they are lap or butterfly I really don't know. All I do know is that we used to call coiling two halves of a single rope together and then carrying like a rucksack the alpine butterfly. That doesn't mean we were correct and we didn't distinguish between the coils and the "knot" really.
Al
It was most certainly not an insult aimed at you or anyone else for that matter although reading through the chain of posts I could have worded it a little better as it was a follow up. I trust we are still "friends"
With regards to whether they are lap or butterfly I really don't know. All I do know is that we used to call coiling two halves of a single rope together and then carrying like a rucksack the alpine butterfly. That doesn't mean we were correct and we didn't distinguish between the coils and the "knot" really.
Al
Post edited at 13:28
In reply to CurlyStevo & GridNorth: Please stop it with all this niceness and apologies - most un UKC like
2
In reply to Michael Hood:
Just trying to set a good example. I've hated conflict ever since getting slapped round the head whilst belaying a mate in Kalymnos just because I suggested to a nagging, aggressive Swiss guy that he do something involving sex and travel.
Al
Just trying to set a good example. I've hated conflict ever since getting slapped round the head whilst belaying a mate in Kalymnos just because I suggested to a nagging, aggressive Swiss guy that he do something involving sex and travel.
Al
3
In reply to JohnnyW:
CurlyStevo's problem was that he assumed that I was providing a line of reasoning. If I was it was accidental.
Al
CurlyStevo's problem was that he assumed that I was providing a line of reasoning. If I was it was accidental.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
Anyway, when you guys have finished squabbling, back to the plot -
Awoohoo, I finally managed it. Wow!, as he says.
I need to do some practicing before trying to wow my pals though, as I suspect a cat's cradle-esque calamity .....
Gonna add this to my repertoire of 'coils wot I know', and who knows, maybe even less twists from my second.
I will report back tomorrow, as I have a day in the hills not working, but playing.
Anyway, when you guys have finished squabbling, back to the plot -
Awoohoo, I finally managed it. Wow!, as he says.
I need to do some practicing before trying to wow my pals though, as I suspect a cat's cradle-esque calamity .....
Gonna add this to my repertoire of 'coils wot I know', and who knows, maybe even less twists from my second.
I will report back tomorrow, as I have a day in the hills not working, but playing.
Post edited at 15:34
In reply to CurlyStevo:
No you're right - no difference, though, surprisingly, being the age I am, I've only recently learned how to make a good job of doing it round me neck. Must be a slow learner!
> Is there any difference between doing it around your neck or over your hand? I've done both and think not, the resulting coils are the same IMO.
No you're right - no difference, though, surprisingly, being the age I am, I've only recently learned how to make a good job of doing it round me neck. Must be a slow learner!
1
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