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So I've been thinking about this for a while but I've finally made a prototype of my idea to be able to discuss it.
When I'm heading out climbing, I know I should tell someone where I'm heading but to be honest I usually don't, I don't want to bother or worry anyone. So, I made a really simple thing that you can send an SMS to say where you're heading, and that page will be publicly visible. Every user gets their own page, and you can send the link to your friends/family or paste it on your UKC profile or whatever. Think of it like leaving a note on the kitchen table, but online.
My page, for example, is here: http://46.101.90.137/user/annak/
All texts that I have sent to the site are shown here.
Yes, I haven't even bought a domain name yet, so please forgive the IP url. And yes it's not pretty, but I don't think I care.
So I was just wondering, do people think this is a good idea? Would you use such a thing?
If you want to register for an account (free) and tell me what you think of using it I can send you details of how to register (bearing in mind this is very much a beta version).
When I'm heading out climbing, I know I should tell someone where I'm heading but to be honest I usually don't, I don't want to bother or worry anyone. So, I made a really simple thing that you can send an SMS to say where you're heading, and that page will be publicly visible. Every user gets their own page, and you can send the link to your friends/family or paste it on your UKC profile or whatever. Think of it like leaving a note on the kitchen table, but online.
My page, for example, is here: http://46.101.90.137/user/annak/
All texts that I have sent to the site are shown here.
Yes, I haven't even bought a domain name yet, so please forgive the IP url. And yes it's not pretty, but I don't think I care.
So I was just wondering, do people think this is a good idea? Would you use such a thing?
If you want to register for an account (free) and tell me what you think of using it I can send you details of how to register (bearing in mind this is very much a beta version).
18
In reply to annak:
I think that's a brilliant idea, especially for people heading out to esoteric little crags far away from anyone or even people like me who keep a bouldering mat and some shoes in the back of my van and use the crag finder on here for a quick solo bouldering sesh on the way home(don't tell my wife ).
I think that's a brilliant idea, especially for people heading out to esoteric little crags far away from anyone or even people like me who keep a bouldering mat and some shoes in the back of my van and use the crag finder on here for a quick solo bouldering sesh on the way home(don't tell my wife ).
3
In reply to annak:
One immediate problem is that without security (i.e. a password) or being sure nobody else knows who you are by using a pseudonym is that Joe public can know when you're out (and where) and can burgle your house. But I'm super paranoid!
One immediate problem is that without security (i.e. a password) or being sure nobody else knows who you are by using a pseudonym is that Joe public can know when you're out (and where) and can burgle your house. But I'm super paranoid!
6
1
In reply to annak:
But, who will know if you don't turn up somewhere? What protocol does it follow if you don't check in?
But, who will know if you don't turn up somewhere? What protocol does it follow if you don't check in?
In reply to mountainbagger:
So - yes, this is something I've thought about a lot. It's a trade-off between having it all posted and public, and the downsides of that. Is there any obvious way to link your user name with your address? Your burglar would have to know who you were on the site, and where you live.
So - yes, this is something I've thought about a lot. It's a trade-off between having it all posted and public, and the downsides of that. Is there any obvious way to link your user name with your address? Your burglar would have to know who you were on the site, and where you live.
In reply to annak:
I'm a strong believer in letting someone know where you're going and likely to return - the crags here often don't see a climber for months (if not years) and aren't visible from the clifftops, so no-one would know if you're in trouble.
It's really important that the people you tell where you're going actually know where it is too - there's no point in telling your mum that you're off to 'Red wall' if that's only a climber's name for the crag and she doesn't know where it is.
I think your idea has merits, but it does need to be secure as Mountainbagger said. It also relies on people actively checking the website, whereas they will definitely look at a text you send them. It is perhaps more useful for arranging meets as a 'bulletin board' for people that don't do facebook?
I'm a strong believer in letting someone know where you're going and likely to return - the crags here often don't see a climber for months (if not years) and aren't visible from the clifftops, so no-one would know if you're in trouble.
It's really important that the people you tell where you're going actually know where it is too - there's no point in telling your mum that you're off to 'Red wall' if that's only a climber's name for the crag and she doesn't know where it is.
I think your idea has merits, but it does need to be secure as Mountainbagger said. It also relies on people actively checking the website, whereas they will definitely look at a text you send them. It is perhaps more useful for arranging meets as a 'bulletin board' for people that don't do facebook?
1
In reply to 9WS9c3jps92HFTEp:
There's nothing limiting when you do or don't check in, it's just a record of your texts.
I considered having some sort of time-release text, so if you didn't cancel a morning text by the evening it'd forward it to a contact. But honestly I think I'd just forget to cancel it, and worry everyone.
There's nothing limiting when you do or don't check in, it's just a record of your texts.
I considered having some sort of time-release text, so if you didn't cancel a morning text by the evening it'd forward it to a contact. But honestly I think I'd just forget to cancel it, and worry everyone.
1
In reply to Toerag:
Well, I was intending that people only check the website when they start worrying about you, to see where you were last.
If you had a password on your page, would you share that password with your friends / family? What about if you went out with a climbing club and didn't turn up at the pub that evening, if it was password protected that would be a hinderence to them trying to track you down.
Well, I was intending that people only check the website when they start worrying about you, to see where you were last.
If you had a password on your page, would you share that password with your friends / family? What about if you went out with a climbing club and didn't turn up at the pub that evening, if it was password protected that would be a hinderence to them trying to track you down.
In reply to Toerag:
In a proper emergency your mum can probably work out where "red wall" is - certainly better than saying nothing to anyone.
> It's really important that the people you tell where you're going actually know where it is too - there's no point in telling your mum that you're off to 'Red wall' if that's only a climber's name for the crag and she doesn't know where it is.
In a proper emergency your mum can probably work out where "red wall" is - certainly better than saying nothing to anyone.
1
1
In reply to annak:
I think it could make folk less safe. The key to winter safety is to be flexible about what is safe and to change your mind if necessary. You can only decide when you see the route and snow conditions. If you have logged an intended route, you are more likely to try it even if your instinct says it's a poor choice. I'm happy to agree it could work in some circumstances.
I think it could make folk less safe. The key to winter safety is to be flexible about what is safe and to change your mind if necessary. You can only decide when you see the route and snow conditions. If you have logged an intended route, you are more likely to try it even if your instinct says it's a poor choice. I'm happy to agree it could work in some circumstances.
9
1
In reply to annak:
I think people concerned about letting others know electronically will buy a tracker and let that automatically text their loved ones the coordinates of where they are.
I think people concerned about letting others know electronically will buy a tracker and let that automatically text their loved ones the coordinates of where they are.
In reply to annak:
To address the concerns about security you could make the location viewable on a time delay, if you forget to tell the system that everything's ok it won't contact anyone, if you don't turn up somewhere because you've made a mess of yourself people can check your location.
To address the concerns about security you could make the location viewable on a time delay, if you forget to tell the system that everything's ok it won't contact anyone, if you don't turn up somewhere because you've made a mess of yourself people can check your location.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Part of why I wanted to do it as SMS was to be able to send an update from the crag - I might send a text sitting at home with the guidebook, but then change my mind on the walk in depending on conditions. But yes, I do appreciate that there might be a mental aspect to sticking with a choice that I'd not considered. But no different to leaving a note on the kitchen table?
Part of why I wanted to do it as SMS was to be able to send an update from the crag - I might send a text sitting at home with the guidebook, but then change my mind on the walk in depending on conditions. But yes, I do appreciate that there might be a mental aspect to sticking with a choice that I'd not considered. But no different to leaving a note on the kitchen table?
3
In reply to annak:
> I considered having some sort of time-release text, so if you didn't cancel a morning text by the evening it'd forward it to a contact. But honestly I think I'd just forget to cancel it, and worry everyone.
Perhaps set it up so that if you don't cancel by a certain time (set by you?) it sends YOU a text asking if you're OK. That should deal with false alarms due to forgetfulness. No reply within a certain time could then raise an alarm by messaging preset contacts.
3
In reply to annak:
I think it's got some good potential.
My thoughts are for a system that you set a time that you'll be back at and if you don't log in and confirm you've returned before that time it sends a message to your designated contact. Obviously it would remind you a few times before it did that.
I think it's got some good potential.
My thoughts are for a system that you set a time that you'll be back at and if you don't log in and confirm you've returned before that time it sends a message to your designated contact. Obviously it would remind you a few times before it did that.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Exactly what I would have said.
Speed, flexibility and not being afraid to turn back are the best tools one can have to stay safe on the mountain.
> I think it could make folk less safe. The key to winter safety is to be flexible about what is safe and to change your mind if necessary. You can only decide when you see the route and snow conditions. If you have logged an intended route, you are more likely to try it even if your instinct says it's a poor choice.
Exactly what I would have said.
Speed, flexibility and not being afraid to turn back are the best tools one can have to stay safe on the mountain.
3
In reply to annak:
I think this is really important, and that climbers are very sloppy in doing this, and that Andy Nisbet is wrong as long as you give a Plan B and Plan C. If at least you tell in which corrie you're thinking of going, that should already really help any Mountain Rescue ("I'm going to Corrie X, trying gully Y, but if snow bad, maybe ridge Z or buttress Q. I'll probably descent to east, unless wind is strong, then I may descent to west"). If given the conditions, you need to change your plans, it is very likely that the Mountain Rescue can reasonably deduct your way of thinking. I've been climbing for years, without bothering much, and then took up caving. Cavers are very conscientious about this, with a very strict alarm time. So now I always make sure someone who's also a climber knows roughly my plans. If at least Mountain Rescuers have at least a vague inkling, rather than randomly search a mountain range...SMS, Facebook, a note, a phone call to a mate, it doesn't matter, as long as you do something.
I think this is really important, and that climbers are very sloppy in doing this, and that Andy Nisbet is wrong as long as you give a Plan B and Plan C. If at least you tell in which corrie you're thinking of going, that should already really help any Mountain Rescue ("I'm going to Corrie X, trying gully Y, but if snow bad, maybe ridge Z or buttress Q. I'll probably descent to east, unless wind is strong, then I may descent to west"). If given the conditions, you need to change your plans, it is very likely that the Mountain Rescue can reasonably deduct your way of thinking. I've been climbing for years, without bothering much, and then took up caving. Cavers are very conscientious about this, with a very strict alarm time. So now I always make sure someone who's also a climber knows roughly my plans. If at least Mountain Rescuers have at least a vague inkling, rather than randomly search a mountain range...SMS, Facebook, a note, a phone call to a mate, it doesn't matter, as long as you do something.
5
2
In reply to annak:
SCOTLAND, HIGHLANDS, POLICE
Until 2013, we used to have this thing around here called Northern Constabulary which was a properly functioning police force. Northern knew about mountains and created a little yellow 'Going to the hills' form that you could get at any police station and give to family or B&B landlady. There was a form to download as well.
Now we have Police Scotland, which is a bit like a toddler stumbling around working out how to stand and what powers it has, occasionally spitting the dummy and so on. Fortunately, the concept of the 'Going to the hills' form has been retained and you can download it at the following address.
http://www.scotland.police.uk/assets/pdf/keep_safe/going-to-the-hills
In some areas, I feel fine about leaving one of these forms on top of my car dashboard but I wouldn't try that in Glencoe or any nearer the equator.
I suppose the next step should be making it into an online form that you can fill in and email to a friend or family but we'll have to wait until the toddler gets rid of the nappy.
Mind how you go.
SCOTLAND, HIGHLANDS, POLICE
Until 2013, we used to have this thing around here called Northern Constabulary which was a properly functioning police force. Northern knew about mountains and created a little yellow 'Going to the hills' form that you could get at any police station and give to family or B&B landlady. There was a form to download as well.
Now we have Police Scotland, which is a bit like a toddler stumbling around working out how to stand and what powers it has, occasionally spitting the dummy and so on. Fortunately, the concept of the 'Going to the hills' form has been retained and you can download it at the following address.
http://www.scotland.police.uk/assets/pdf/keep_safe/going-to-the-hills
In some areas, I feel fine about leaving one of these forms on top of my car dashboard but I wouldn't try that in Glencoe or any nearer the equator.
I suppose the next step should be making it into an online form that you can fill in and email to a friend or family but we'll have to wait until the toddler gets rid of the nappy.
Mind how you go.
2
In reply to Maarten2:
You are unlikely to have a plan B and a plan C until you are there. Who knows what conditions are going to be like (winter climbing). Now you are standing below the cliff in bad weather. You've put your crampons on and your hands are numb and painful. A small avalanche comes down and you decide to go to the other side of the corrie. You are struggling to see in wind and spindrift. And you're expected to get your phone out and text a change of plan (even if there is a signal). It's one of those ideas which sounds good in the warmth of a house but . . .
> I think this is really important, and that climbers are very sloppy in doing this, and that Andy Nisbet is wrong as long as you give a Plan B and Plan C.
You are unlikely to have a plan B and a plan C until you are there. Who knows what conditions are going to be like (winter climbing). Now you are standing below the cliff in bad weather. You've put your crampons on and your hands are numb and painful. A small avalanche comes down and you decide to go to the other side of the corrie. You are struggling to see in wind and spindrift. And you're expected to get your phone out and text a change of plan (even if there is a signal). It's one of those ideas which sounds good in the warmth of a house but . . .
10
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
I make a habit of texting my wife before starting a route so she knows where I'll be - I think this is just an improvement on that. Sure plans change, but even just knowing roughly where you'll be and roughly when to expect to hear from you when you're down is better than nothing I feel.
I make a habit of texting my wife before starting a route so she knows where I'll be - I think this is just an improvement on that. Sure plans change, but even just knowing roughly where you'll be and roughly when to expect to hear from you when you're down is better than nothing I feel.
1
1
In reply to nclarey:
I think this is an good idea, I use a InReach satalite tracker my self sending my exact location and leave the device in tracking mode so a bread crum trail can be seen on line. in light of the recent cases in Scotland this would of helped for sure and possibly saved lives
I think this is an good idea, I use a InReach satalite tracker my self sending my exact location and leave the device in tracking mode so a bread crum trail can be seen on line. in light of the recent cases in Scotland this would of helped for sure and possibly saved lives
1
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
It's not like the system demands that you specify an individual route. The text you send could be as vague as you choose. As others have already said, just knowing the general area you're heading into could still be pretty helpful for Mountain Rescue.
It's not like the system demands that you specify an individual route. The text you send could be as vague as you choose. As others have already said, just knowing the general area you're heading into could still be pretty helpful for Mountain Rescue.
1
In reply to annak:
It's a great idea but if you're going to send a text, why not just send it to a 'home contact' directly rather than uploading it to a website? That way it's secure and someone will follow it up if you're not home, because you can text to let them know you're safe when you're back.
It's a great idea but if you're going to send a text, why not just send it to a 'home contact' directly rather than uploading it to a website? That way it's secure and someone will follow it up if you're not home, because you can text to let them know you're safe when you're back.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
I've always used this form and think the scheme works well, especially when soling and single ( knowing that someone with local knowledge has an idea of which crag/mountain I'm on ( I agree with Andy N. - you cant really specify a route) is reassuring that if the S*^t hits the fan, at least someone will start to know where to look, and might just hear my whistle/see my torch .
Last day travelling home always an issue....so dashboard note seems only option....but I've always worried that might be a wee while before someone a) finds my car or b) complains to the police about a car left in x layby.
I've always used this form and think the scheme works well, especially when soling and single ( knowing that someone with local knowledge has an idea of which crag/mountain I'm on ( I agree with Andy N. - you cant really specify a route) is reassuring that if the S*^t hits the fan, at least someone will start to know where to look, and might just hear my whistle/see my torch .
Last day travelling home always an issue....so dashboard note seems only option....but I've always worried that might be a wee while before someone a) finds my car or b) complains to the police about a car left in x layby.
In reply to XXXX:
For me personally, if I'm out climbing with friends I'll let my other half know where I'm headed - but if I'm climbing with him I don't usually text anyone else. I wouldn't text my family because I think they'd worry too much. Also sometimes I'm out every weekend and that just seems like too many texts to bother someone with.
For me personally, if I'm out climbing with friends I'll let my other half know where I'm headed - but if I'm climbing with him I don't usually text anyone else. I wouldn't text my family because I think they'd worry too much. Also sometimes I'm out every weekend and that just seems like too many texts to bother someone with.
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
Andy I am with you, any electronics can fail ( batteries when it's really cold ) and may be difficult to operate, and maybe no signal, or worse the network goes down. I think Annak's idea is good though and I absolutely agree with Maarten2 " as long as you do something ".
Jim Fraser has mentioned the Going to the Hills form. George Fisher in Keswick has a downloadable "walk plan" which you can print, fill in and even leave it at their reception. This idea maybe could be extended to other mountain supplies shops anywhere, or hostels, local houses, even Bothies ( been there and gone on to...) Crazy idea that might work is Geocache sites pre-agreed with mountain rescue organisations especially in remote areas at well known walk-in points. I always leave a note with my partner as I invariably go solo, literally. In the note I leave details of where the car is going to be parked ( using OS map references )description of route, maybe some key turning points if the route is not straight forward ( long walk-in, scramble, top-out, different route back and if the route is a really long day I show her on the map. I carry Satmap GPS a Personal Locator Beacon, map and compass. The last thing I ever want to do is put myself in a situation where I have to dial 999 and trouble those m/rescue guys. It's worked, so far.... but then I haven't broken any bones yet!
Andy I am with you, any electronics can fail ( batteries when it's really cold ) and may be difficult to operate, and maybe no signal, or worse the network goes down. I think Annak's idea is good though and I absolutely agree with Maarten2 " as long as you do something ".
Jim Fraser has mentioned the Going to the Hills form. George Fisher in Keswick has a downloadable "walk plan" which you can print, fill in and even leave it at their reception. This idea maybe could be extended to other mountain supplies shops anywhere, or hostels, local houses, even Bothies ( been there and gone on to...) Crazy idea that might work is Geocache sites pre-agreed with mountain rescue organisations especially in remote areas at well known walk-in points. I always leave a note with my partner as I invariably go solo, literally. In the note I leave details of where the car is going to be parked ( using OS map references )description of route, maybe some key turning points if the route is not straight forward ( long walk-in, scramble, top-out, different route back and if the route is a really long day I show her on the map. I carry Satmap GPS a Personal Locator Beacon, map and compass. The last thing I ever want to do is put myself in a situation where I have to dial 999 and trouble those m/rescue guys. It's worked, so far.... but then I haven't broken any bones yet!
In reply to Andy Nisbet:
But if that avalanche injures you so you cannot walk, or you get lost in that wind/spindrift, its probably going to end better if you have a note/call-out saying 'I was planning to go to X' (even if you subsequently walked to Y) than if no-one knows where you were headed (or worse, that you even left)...
The most important piece of information in a call-out is simply that you should be back at time X, and if you are not then you probably need rescue. If you provide a location you were planning to go to then at least it gives MR somewhere to start? Once they rule this out they can then move on, but assuming that most of the time people end up somewhere close to where they intended to go then it should do more good than harm.
That said I never bother with call-outs in climbing either (only caving), although I also never climb/cave alone.
> You are unlikely to have a plan B and a plan C until you are there. Who knows what conditions are going to be like (winter climbing). Now you are standing below the cliff in bad weather. You've put your crampons on and your hands are numb and painful. A small avalanche comes down and you decide to go to the other side of the corrie. You are struggling to see in wind and spindrift. And you're expected to get your phone out and text a change of plan (even if there is a signal). It's one of those ideas which sounds good in the warmth of a house but . . .
But if that avalanche injures you so you cannot walk, or you get lost in that wind/spindrift, its probably going to end better if you have a note/call-out saying 'I was planning to go to X' (even if you subsequently walked to Y) than if no-one knows where you were headed (or worse, that you even left)...
The most important piece of information in a call-out is simply that you should be back at time X, and if you are not then you probably need rescue. If you provide a location you were planning to go to then at least it gives MR somewhere to start? Once they rule this out they can then move on, but assuming that most of the time people end up somewhere close to where they intended to go then it should do more good than harm.
That said I never bother with call-outs in climbing either (only caving), although I also never climb/cave alone.
Post edited at 22:40
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