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Is this a sign of what would happen post-Brexit?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35689427
Apparently our government is fully committed to improving air quality; it's just that it doesn't seem to be matching that commitment with appropriate action.
On the other hand this does seem to be a rare example of how our government does occasionally seek to have a hand in actively developing EU policy on important matters such as this, rather than just sitting back and criticising once things are decided; unfortunately in this case it seems to have been to try to water down any requirements and allow the air quality to get worse.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-35689427
Apparently our government is fully committed to improving air quality; it's just that it doesn't seem to be matching that commitment with appropriate action.
On the other hand this does seem to be a rare example of how our government does occasionally seek to have a hand in actively developing EU policy on important matters such as this, rather than just sitting back and criticising once things are decided; unfortunately in this case it seems to have been to try to water down any requirements and allow the air quality to get worse.
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In reply to john arran:
Is this a sign of what would happen post-Brexit?
Who knows.It seems the RDE testing mentioned at the end might be a good way to combat VW cars fraudulent claims. (what ever happened with that scandal....not read anything for a while on it) . Another concern is TTIP and the environment. Could there be homogenizing rules on air pollution with US companies ?
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/09/mps-investigate-ttip-tra...
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-wh...
Is this a sign of what would happen post-Brexit?
Who knows.It seems the RDE testing mentioned at the end might be a good way to combat VW cars fraudulent claims. (what ever happened with that scandal....not read anything for a while on it) . Another concern is TTIP and the environment. Could there be homogenizing rules on air pollution with US companies ?
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/jan/09/mps-investigate-ttip-tra...
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-wh...
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
Hypothetically, maybe. But in order to do so it would actually need to happen. Otherwise it's just more noise to cloud the issue and justify doing nothing, while at the same time failing to meet the standards the EU has actually gone ahead and agreed.
> Who knows.It seems the RDE testing mentioned at the end might be a good way to combat VW cars fraudulent claims.
Hypothetically, maybe. But in order to do so it would actually need to happen. Otherwise it's just more noise to cloud the issue and justify doing nothing, while at the same time failing to meet the standards the EU has actually gone ahead and agreed.
In reply to john arran:
Britain co-operated very well with the EU in the utterly important issues of matting at bouldering walls and spacing of bolts at lead climbing walls so it is not as rare as you think
Britain co-operated very well with the EU in the utterly important issues of matting at bouldering walls and spacing of bolts at lead climbing walls so it is not as rare as you think
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In reply to john arran:
Seeing as it's happening currently, why drag BREXIT into it?
> Is this a sign of what would happen post-Brexit?
Seeing as it's happening currently, why drag BREXIT into it?
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In reply to Big Ger:
I would have thought that was obvious. If the UK is failing to meet agreed (even watered down) EU targets now, presumably until such time as it's actually fined as a result, then what do you think the chances are of it proactively introducing its own, more effective measures and actually implementing them if there was no penalty for not doing so?
> Seeing as it's happening currently, why drag BREXIT into it?
I would have thought that was obvious. If the UK is failing to meet agreed (even watered down) EU targets now, presumably until such time as it's actually fined as a result, then what do you think the chances are of it proactively introducing its own, more effective measures and actually implementing them if there was no penalty for not doing so?
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In reply to john arran:
Well maybe if we elected a government who ran on a platform of improving air quality, then we'd get those legislations.
Well maybe if we elected a government who ran on a platform of improving air quality, then we'd get those legislations.
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In reply to john arran:
Don't think it's just the UK that are struggling with this issue within the EU...
Don't think it's just the UK that are struggling with this issue within the EU...
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In reply to Big Ger:
Was that a serious response or am I missing the joke?
> Well maybe if we elected a government who ran on a platform of improving air quality, then we'd get those legislations.
Was that a serious response or am I missing the joke?
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In reply to FactorXXX:
That wouldn't surprise me. Probably if it wasn't for the EU many simply wouldn't bother at all, in the hope of short-sighted and short-term economic gain. I wouldn't be surprised if UK was one of them considering the empty words in the OP example.
> Don't think it's just the UK that are struggling with this issue within the EU...
That wouldn't surprise me. Probably if it wasn't for the EU many simply wouldn't bother at all, in the hope of short-sighted and short-term economic gain. I wouldn't be surprised if UK was one of them considering the empty words in the OP example.
In reply to john arran:
No, it was a serious response John. There is no reason why, if the British public have a desire for such legislation, that we should vote the Greens or Labour into the UK government.
It seems that those who are pro-this legislation are saying; "Well I want Green policy, and we have a Conservative Government, so it's great that it's being imposed on us by the EU."
In the EU elections the UK elected 24 UKIP MEP's, 20 Labour, 19 Conservative.
No, it was a serious response John. There is no reason why, if the British public have a desire for such legislation, that we should vote the Greens or Labour into the UK government.
It seems that those who are pro-this legislation are saying; "Well I want Green policy, and we have a Conservative Government, so it's great that it's being imposed on us by the EU."
In the EU elections the UK elected 24 UKIP MEP's, 20 Labour, 19 Conservative.
Post edited at 01:27
In reply to Big Ger:
It sounds like you're suggesting that many Tory voters would choose to live in a polluted shit-hole if they thought they may feel better off financially. My fear is that you may be right.
The big problem with your theory is that Cameron actually did campaign, at least partially, on environmental issues, got himself elected, and now we're seeing quite how much he meant it. Green issues may not be the biggest vote winner but I think most people recognise they're important. Cameron clearly knows this, which is why he's still making promises. Thankfully because we're part of the EU he may ultimately have to deliver on some of them.
It sounds like you're suggesting that many Tory voters would choose to live in a polluted shit-hole if they thought they may feel better off financially. My fear is that you may be right.
The big problem with your theory is that Cameron actually did campaign, at least partially, on environmental issues, got himself elected, and now we're seeing quite how much he meant it. Green issues may not be the biggest vote winner but I think most people recognise they're important. Cameron clearly knows this, which is why he's still making promises. Thankfully because we're part of the EU he may ultimately have to deliver on some of them.
In reply to john arran:
No, what I'm saying is that the electorate didn't have air pollution as its priority. You can emotionalise the issue as much as you want, that doesn't change anything.
So Cameron campaigned in part for some environmental legislation, good for him. That doesn't detract or contradict my points though.
As I said; "It seems that those who are pro-this legislation are saying; "Well I want Green policy, and we have a Conservative Government, so it's great that it's being imposed on us by the EU.""
No, what I'm saying is that the electorate didn't have air pollution as its priority. You can emotionalise the issue as much as you want, that doesn't change anything.
So Cameron campaigned in part for some environmental legislation, good for him. That doesn't detract or contradict my points though.
> Thankfully because we're part of the EU he may ultimately have to deliver on some of them
As I said; "It seems that those who are pro-this legislation are saying; "Well I want Green policy, and we have a Conservative Government, so it's great that it's being imposed on us by the EU.""
Post edited at 02:39
In reply to Big Ger:
I don't think it matters one jot in this case which flavour of government we currently have, but it does matter that environmental considerations are being acted upon rather than just promised.
I don't think it matters one jot in this case which flavour of government we currently have, but it does matter that environmental considerations are being acted upon rather than just promised.
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In reply to Big Ger:
Your narrow points would apply if people voted on one party one issue. But they don't, and you know that. What's your point Stroppy?
Your narrow points would apply if people voted on one party one issue. But they don't, and you know that. What's your point Stroppy?
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In reply to john arran:
Ah, but it does. A conservative government, resistant to EU diktats, would, as has been noted, provide at least traction against their implementation. But that is bye the bye, a considerable proportion of the UK population are resistant to our EU overlords. Imposing legislation from abroad merely strengthens their hand in getting us out, as we have seen in the "kettle"furor.
Fact of the matter is that most of the UK electorate are more happy with Westminster legislating for us, than having the EU imposing on us, Westminster being seen as the lesser of two evils.
> I don't think it matters one jot in this case which flavour of government we currently have, but it does matter that environmental considerations are being acted upon rather than just promised.
Ah, but it does. A conservative government, resistant to EU diktats, would, as has been noted, provide at least traction against their implementation. But that is bye the bye, a considerable proportion of the UK population are resistant to our EU overlords. Imposing legislation from abroad merely strengthens their hand in getting us out, as we have seen in the "kettle"furor.
Fact of the matter is that most of the UK electorate are more happy with Westminster legislating for us, than having the EU imposing on us, Westminster being seen as the lesser of two evils.
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In reply to Big Ger:
This is just a load of conjecture on what the public, it's hard to make sweeping statements like the 'real' reason the electorate voted in a Conservative government is because they dislike environmental policies or even simply don't care. The Green Party were never a viable choice, and even the greatest advocate of protecting the environment would struggle justifiying to vote for a well-meaning but radical party.
> Ah, but it does. A conservative government, resistant to EU diktats, would, as has been noted, provide at least traction against their implementation. But that is bye the bye, a considerable proportion of the UK population are resistant to our EU overlords. Imposing legislation from abroad merely strengthens their hand in getting us out, as we have seen in the "kettle" furor.
> Fact of the matter is that most of the UK electorate are more happy with Westminster legislating for us, than having the EU imposing on us, Westminster being seen as the lesser of two evils.
This is just a load of conjecture on what the public, it's hard to make sweeping statements like the 'real' reason the electorate voted in a Conservative government is because they dislike environmental policies or even simply don't care. The Green Party were never a viable choice, and even the greatest advocate of protecting the environment would struggle justifiying to vote for a well-meaning but radical party.
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In reply to FreshSlate:
That's why I have never made those claims.
Agreed.
> This is just a load of conjecture on what the public, it's hard to make sweeping statements like the 'real' reason the electorate voted in a Conservative government is because they dislike environmental policies or even simply don't care.
That's why I have never made those claims.
> The Green Party were never a viable choice, and even the greatest advocate of protecting the environment would struggle justifiying to vote for a well-meaning but radical party.
Agreed.
In reply to Big Ger:
And you're accusing ME of using emotive language?
What all of the above (and most of the Leave arguments) ignores is that it's a bigger We that are responsible for drafting and agreeing these laws - there is no Them. If any are bad then We must share the blame.
> ... EU diktats ... EU overlords. Imposing legislation from abroad ... EU imposing on us
And you're accusing ME of using emotive language?
What all of the above (and most of the Leave arguments) ignores is that it's a bigger We that are responsible for drafting and agreeing these laws - there is no Them. If any are bad then We must share the blame.
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In reply to john arran:
Ermm... I was being sarcastic, using terms of derision. (A bit hard to pick up in the written word I know)
Not if we leave we do not.
> And you're accusing ME of using emotive language?
Ermm... I was being sarcastic, using terms of derision. (A bit hard to pick up in the written word I know)
> What all of the above (and most of the Leave arguments) ignores is that it's a bigger We that are responsible for drafting and agreeing these laws - there is no Them. If any are bad then We must share the blame.
Not if we leave we do not.
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In reply to Big Ger:
David "Greenest Government Ever" Cameron has talked a lot about environmental protection, his actions however.
David "Greenest Government Ever" Cameron has talked a lot about environmental protection, his actions however.
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In reply to Big Ger:
More "Us" and "Them" from the Brexit camp. I have four levels of government I can (and do) vote for. Ipswich, Suffolk, UK and EU. They are all "Us" - just that the size of the "Us" increases. Currently the one of these four that best represents my own views is the EU - in large part because at EU level decisions are made by negotiation and compromise - you generally get better decisions that way.
Green regulations are part of the whole package of regulations that define the EU single market and prevent countries embarking on a "race to the bottom" in areas like environmental protection and workers rights. They help make Europe, for all its faults, the best bit of the world to live in.
Martin
> As I said; "It seems that those who are pro-this legislation are saying; "Well I want Green policy, and we have a Conservative Government, so it's great that it's being imposed on us by the EU.""
More "Us" and "Them" from the Brexit camp. I have four levels of government I can (and do) vote for. Ipswich, Suffolk, UK and EU. They are all "Us" - just that the size of the "Us" increases. Currently the one of these four that best represents my own views is the EU - in large part because at EU level decisions are made by negotiation and compromise - you generally get better decisions that way.
Green regulations are part of the whole package of regulations that define the EU single market and prevent countries embarking on a "race to the bottom" in areas like environmental protection and workers rights. They help make Europe, for all its faults, the best bit of the world to live in.
Martin
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In reply to Big Ger:
That's one thing I see as a positive about the EU, in that there are people who get paid to sit and think of how to make life better and in a sphere which is outside of politics (when it comes to who we vote for in the UK during elections), so that people benefit from the 'hive mind', and we can still vote for our MEP's, too. As a general system I think it works, and nobody has found a perfect one yet.
> No, what I'm saying is that the electorate didn't have air pollution as its priority. You can emotionalise the issue as much as you want, that doesn't change anything.
That's one thing I see as a positive about the EU, in that there are people who get paid to sit and think of how to make life better and in a sphere which is outside of politics (when it comes to who we vote for in the UK during elections), so that people benefit from the 'hive mind', and we can still vote for our MEP's, too. As a general system I think it works, and nobody has found a perfect one yet.
Post edited at 22:47
In reply to Big Ger:
Or perhaps care of the environment is bigger than any one UK party can hope to manage in the current social and electoral mechansim, and we need to be beholden to some rulings that are bigger than all of us.
Just because the typical Tory may be more concerned by fox-hunting than they are by global catastrophe, doesn't mean we should necessarily make that our number one goal.
> As I said; "It seems that those who are pro-this legislation are saying; "Well I want Green policy, and we have a Conservative Government, so it's great that it's being imposed on us by the EU.""
Or perhaps care of the environment is bigger than any one UK party can hope to manage in the current social and electoral mechansim, and we need to be beholden to some rulings that are bigger than all of us.
Just because the typical Tory may be more concerned by fox-hunting than they are by global catastrophe, doesn't mean we should necessarily make that our number one goal.
In reply to David Martin:
Then we reach international agreements, we still do not need to be in the EU club.
And the main goal for Labour supporters may be ensuring lesbian single parent disabled Somali refugees get free houses, but that sort of stereotyping is normally frowned on, and adds nothing to the debate.
I'm VERY anti-hunting and have been castigated here for hoping all hunts people fall off their horse and break their unlovely necks, can I still be a typical tory?.
> Or perhaps care of the environment is bigger than any one UK party can hope to manage in the current social and electoral mechansim, and we need to be beholden to some rulings that are bigger than all of us.
Then we reach international agreements, we still do not need to be in the EU club.
> Just because the typical Tory may be more concerned by fox-hunting than they are by global catastrophe, doesn't mean we should necessarily make that our number one goal.
And the main goal for Labour supporters may be ensuring lesbian single parent disabled Somali refugees get free houses, but that sort of stereotyping is normally frowned on, and adds nothing to the debate.
I'm VERY anti-hunting and have been castigated here for hoping all hunts people fall off their horse and break their unlovely necks, can I still be a typical tory?.
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