UKC

I couldn't hep but notice that my partner an I seem to be carrying more up the Ben than most folks. I was carrying a 40L sack with helmet on top and rope under the lid. Other folks seemed to manage with 35-40L sacks, with everything stashed away inside.

I've included a list of what I carried up with me (to do Grade II-IV ice) below.

I think I could have cut back further on the rock gear (I only placed slings and one tricam) and strip out some of the first aid kit (but that would only save weight not space).

What would you leave behind and why?

THE OBVIOUS
Axes and lanyard
Harness
1/2 ropes
Helmet
Crampons

RACK
- 7 Ice screws
- 2 Drive ins
- Deadboy
- 2 Angles
- 1 1/2 sets of nuts
- 1/2 set of tricams
- 2 large Hexes
- 5 Sling draws
- 7 quickdraws
- Belay and abseil gear
- 2 Large slings
- Tat, knife and threader

OTHER
- Snow Shovel
- First aid Kit (~1Kg including emergeny kit too)
- 2 Head torches (one spare)
- Map Compass/Guidebook
- Emergency USB charger
- 1.5L fluids
- sandwiches plus 150g Sweets (jelly beans/tablet/haribo etc.
- Camera

SPARE CLOTHING
- Hardshell
- Spare gloves
- Belay jacket

WEARING
- Two pair of gloves
- Thermal vest and base layer
- Soft shell Jacked and Salopettes.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Camera - most folk seem to make do with camera on their phone nowadays, unless looking for a photograph day
First aid kit - other than a bivvy bag what else is "really" required for a day trip that you couldn't improvise
Snow shovel - ever used one on a day trip?
Emergency usb charger?????
One litre of fluid all that is required - fill at CIC hut if drinking on walk in
Dead boy - use buried axes instead (unless being used for cornice breakthrough protection I suppose)

Some bulky items left, hope you splitting that rack with your climbing partner and he not also carrying in gear, otherwise should all pack down ok after that

Ah, size of sack envy.........

In reply to mmmhumous:

Did you need:
The snow shovel?
The spare head torch (or get a smaller one or check the batteries before going out)?
I'm assuming you only had half of that rack (and was it the right rack for the sort of routes you had in mind, thats a lot of passive rock protection if you are also carrying 9 screws) and only one of you had a guidebook?
Did you share the emergency kit? A lightweight 2 man group shelter, small first aid kit and even adding a blizzard blanket shouldn't be too much between two?
The USB charger for a day trip? Make sure your phone is charged up (and your partners) and turn it off insulated in your pack.
1.5l of fluids? I drink plenty the night before and in the morning and take a small flask. If you want more carry an empty bottle and drink up and fill up at the hut?

In reply to mmmhumous:

You forgot the kitchen sink???

In reply to mmmhumous:

leave the Shovel, deadman, USB charger.

no need for a hard shell, soft shell and belay jacket, take 2 of the 3 and that will save a good amount of space. personally I take a hard shell OR a softshell to wear, with a belay jacket as spare.

and pack a rack specific to the route you are doing, if mixed then take 2 screws at most, if ice then take allot less rock gear. also why 5 sling draws plus 7 normal draws? when have you ever placed more than 8 runners on a winter pitch?! if desperate you can us a sling as a runner or even use a racking crab. I would take 4 sling draws and 4 normal.

In reply to Pids:

If it doesnt fit in a 28ltr Osprey Mutant it doesn't come

In reply to mmmhumous:

I've been on a pack weight loss programme this winter and I've manged to strip at least 2kg. That's not to be sniffed at. Along the way I've gone from a 45-55L Alpine Attack to a 35L Ascensionist. Some of my weight saving measures could apply to your own situation but it is a personal thing.

You can divide the weight loss areas into four groups: clothing, gear, extras, incrementals

Clothing: Don't bring softshell AND hardshell. Wear the right midlayer for the conditions (R1, ME Eclipse or Nano Air all fantastic) and choose the correct shell for the conditions =500g saving. I use a Patagonia Kniferidge which breathes and is waterproof enough for winter and I've barely worn the hardshell since 2014. Own two belay jackets, take one. A big one 750g for proper Scottish days, but on calmer days how about that sub 400g Prism/Xenon etc? How much does your rucksac weigh? My switch of packs saved me 600g.

Gear: Your rack looks decent, maybe short of a knifeblade/terrier or two. But you could ration the slings and QDs. We now only take slingdraws, mostly 60cm and 3 or so 120cm (long!!) which double as slings, and a couple of 240cm slings on screwgates. I can't remember using more than 8 in total on a pitch in winter, you have 14. You could also cut down on screws vs rock gear. It's not always easy to know what you will find but you probably have a notion whether to go for screws and ditch the tricams or vice versa. How heavy are your ropes? We use 8mm 60s. Half a millimeter diameter shaves 1kg!!

Extras: Camera, really? Surely the phone will do? 1kg on first aid? Seriously? Throw half away = 500g. Guidebook? we both photocopy/laminate/photograph the relevant pages/topos and leave the book in the car = 300g. Snow shovel? Use the deadman = 200g. USB charger? Have you ever run out of phone battery life on the hill? Put the damn thing on airplane mode and it'll last a week = 150g. Fluids? Drink a litre in the car as you set off and take 1litre on the hill = 500g.

Incrementals: over the years I've taken down the weight of my rack and clothing by always considering weight above purchase price. It's amazing how much more my partner's rack and pack weighs for the same apparent gear and clothing. This takes time unless you're mad keen to make inroads.

Hope some of the above helps.

In reply to mmmhumous:

If your second torch is one of the tiny ones maybe, but a spare battery/ies was the most I've ever taken.
Snow shovel and a deadman? Have you used either? I remember lugging a deadman around Scotland for my first couple of seasons of winter climbing but we basically never used it, so we stopped and I don't remember ever missing it. Bury your tools for snow belays if necessary.

I bought a tiny USB charger recently, but only because again quite recently I got the OS map app for my phone so have begun using it as GPS for navigation. Still have a map and compass though being very much of the pre-GPS generation! I've bought a lightweight first aid kit from life systems or whatever they are called, its no bad for weight and bulk, but I only got that when my kids started coming hiking/camping with me more. When I was a Scottish winter regular I don't think I took one. For a big accident you improvise with climbing equipment - not sure what help one bandage and some ibuprofen might be.

In reply to stevieweesaxs107:

Ignoring climbing gear... although surely you don't need to carry all that?!

Dump the USB charger, spare torch if it's a big one (and get a Petzl e-lite instead), shovel, camera.
Carry much less fluid and top up with that and some food before leave car.
Photo and photocopy of route rather than guide, although that does leave you a bit stuck sometimes with choice.

I carry map, compass, route info, phone and bit of cash, a main headtorch, 500mls water, 500mls hot drink in a flask.
For emergency kit I carry a Terra Nova ultra light bothy bag with couple of energy gels, a SOLO survival bag, 2 handwarmers inside it. And then a mini FA kit with an E-lite in.

I've cut down the gloves I carry now too. Buffalo mitts in belay jacket pockets for emergencies, and then a waterproof pair and a softshell pair.

In reply to JayPee630:


That's interesting. Have you ever used the handwarmers? I imagine sticking them down your shirt if you had to sit out a night would be really good, but never thought of a taking any. Climbing wise, I've only ever put them in my chalkbag for rock climbing on frosty Finnish autumn days (they work great like that!).

In reply to mmmhumous:
As others have said, I would lose USB, shovel, dead boy, and half a litre of water.

How many jackets are you carrying?

Plus your rack? There is a lot of heavy metal rock gear for an ice route. 12 extenders, plus slings, plus abseil and belay gear ... Seems a lot?

For me i would thin it down, you'll sweat less walking in and need to drink less.

Cut the rack down a little and you may find the climbing easier and quicker, might not need that belay jacket then.

In reply to TobyA:

I usually take some Ethilon 2/0 on a straight triangular needle as it is in my first aid for the Alps.You don't need needle holders then, in order to suture a wound.(And yes I have used it in the Alps when the Steri-strips would not attach due to the deep wound being in a hairy arm, and nothing to get rid of the hair.The strips probably would not have worked anyway) Likewise I take several bandages as 1 bandage isn't going to be much use. I suppose I see that I take these things for my friends.
I still take a whistle, as mobile phones do not always work in the hills. Sometimes I go without mobile phone anyway(so saving some weight on those days) and would worry about maps not working on the 'phone due to the battery not lasting due to being used in that way and in the cold. So I prefer water-proof conventional maps and compass. Yet I do plan to get a GPS watch.

All this talk of drinking water before setting off does not allow for normal physiology, in that to some degree, when you drink more, you tend to concentrate your urine less, and therefore lose a greater volume of water in urine; hence you will need to drink more later. Yet I agree with topping up at the CIC hut or similar. Having said that my problem is persuading myself to drink more during the day, when I do not want to stop to drink.

In reply to TobyA:

Always carry a couple in my emergency kit and leave some in pockets of belay jackets I give to people I take out. A friend had an accident this summer and for a variety of reasons rescue took some time. The casualty was warm in a blizzard bag with warmers, the 2 uninjured people were extremely cold just in belay jackets.

In reply to mmmhumous:









































I've taken quite a bit less than this on an alpine north face?

In reply to mmmhumous:

Out of interest, how heavy is that lot ?

In reply to mmmhumous:

I wrote a blog post on this recently http://www.punterism.com/whats-in-my-bag-scottish-winter

Disclaimer - this works for me, might not work for everybody. I'm just a weekend warrior after all, I'm sure those more experienced will have their own opinions.

This all currently gets carried in a Montane Anaconda 18, with rope, helmet and axes on the outside. I carry a DSLR with me, too.

In reply to BnB:

[goes and gets the kitchen scales]...

-Dependant on temperature, I either don't bother with a mid layer, or use my soft shell under my hardshell in place of one. BUT (unless it's really cold) I could probably switch my soft shell and big downie for just my smaller down jacket. (~1Kg saving)

- Would do if I had more dyneema slings, but regardless, I could have lost a few of the quick draws, was only clipping 5-8 draws even on the 50m+ pitches. The angles were a waste of weight, a couple of knifeblades would have been lighter and more useful. (-360g)

- Actually got the number of screws spot on for the routes, but far too much rock gear... would be tempted to ditch the hexes and large wires and just take micro wires and a 1/3 set of tricams. (-820g)

- Not as skinny as yours sadly

- Current phone has some issues, so stays off until I need it... also the reason for the emergency charger. New Phone on the way, so may be able to ditch the camera next season.

>1kg on first aid? Seriously? Throw half away = 500g.
-Apparently not.. kitchen scales say just under 900g, but 420g of that can be ditched for winter climbing. (-420g)

>Guidebook? we both photocopy/laminate/photograph the relevant pages/topos and leave the book in the car = 300g.
- Same here unless we don't have a firm plan on which routes we'll be doing.

>Snow shovel? Use the deadman = 200g.
- Did use it, but could have easily managed with the adze or deadboy. (fairly heavy shovel: -440g)

>USB charger? Have you ever run out of phone battery life on the hill? Put the damn thing on airplane mode and it'll last a week = 150g.
-Yep I have (dodgy phone), charger is only 68g though.

>Fluids? Drink a litre in the car as you set off and take 1litre on the hill = 500g.
-Sadly the 'extra 500mL' is for my caffiene addiction, but given the litre of water I can hardly gets touched, I could shave that back to 500mL. (-500g)


-As I'm fairly heavy myself, for summer climbing, I've never been overly concerned with weight. My shoulders told me I should start taking an interest when it comes to winter gear.

-Yep definitely, 3Kg of relatively painless weight loss. cheers

In reply to Rick Graham:

Too heavy! At a guess, including axes and crampons: 15-20kg. The second day on the Ben, I knew what I was going to climb, what the conditions were like (and that there was already a kitchen sink up there), so left a few Kgs at the bottom.

In reply to Pids:

Yep ropes and rack are split between two. Deady boy is for use a s a runner, or to ab off.

In reply to TobyA:

- It is, but was ditched on the second day up the Hill.



-Main contents are cable ties, gaffa tape, tampons/sanitary towels and some robust painkillers.

In reply to mmmhumous:
What everyone else has said, plus...

Sandwiches? If you have time to eat sandwiches you're moving too slowly

That seems like a hell of a lot of gear for a II-IV ice route, but gear is a pretty personal thing. I don't think anyone can really tell you to take less than you're comfortable with.

When I started Winter Climbing I typically took a 50 litre pack, now my pack is half that size. Every time I go out I learn a bit more about what I need/don't need for a given route and conditions.

In reply to planetmarshall:


- To be fair I don't. may be better ditching the butties or replacing them with more sugar/carbs.

- It was! Would have liked an extra screw or two, but I've had bigger run outs... but far too much rock gear!

- My aim for next time is to be able to get my rope and helmet inside my 40L sack.

In reply to mmmhumous:


A bit too much climbing gear.

Don't carry more clothes than you can wear all at once.

1 small 'proper' water bottle and a second plastic collapsible one, once you've drunk the plastic one you can crush it down to nothing to save bulk.


Leaving behind any emergency kit is clearly foolish if the excuse is "I always carry it but have never had reason to use it"

Always carry a spare torch, I carry a single AAA Fenix torch as a spare, weighs about 15g and uses the same batteries as headtorch, the E-Lite is a good shout too.

Phone charger, the small cylindrical ones that have a built in LED light. Not worth leaving behind considering the size, weight and second function.

If you split the first aid/emergency kit, make sure each other knows where it is in your pack. Bright drybags are easy to find in the bottom of a pack (Karrimor 2 litre/red)

First aid kit doesn't need too much more than a couple of gauze pads, couple of each of aspirin/imodium/ibuprofen. The rest you can improvise with a few metres of duct tape and a buff.

Bothy bag to share is a must. Plus emergency 'silver' bag each.

Emergency food that never gets eaten. You don't wanna break your ankle on the walk back to the car and freeze to death because you didn't have a bar of chocolate!

I don't think you are too far off, you could probably save loads by replacing everything with the lightest version available on the market, (if you want an excuse to buy more gear)

Eyewear?

In reply to mmmhumous:

As others have suggested, ditch the deadboy. Not the best bit of kit and in heavy snow conditions a full deadman is the proper tool.

Much though I love the security of Hex 9, I don't normally expect to get it placed on the BenN! You might want to ditch some of the rock pro depending on your plans. Mainly smaller nuts for the BenN. How many screws?!?

Charger? As stated above, maybe switch it off (VMail ON) and place safely in a bag. Half a day each with the phone on? If your phone can be fitted with a cord then that's a great idea for the hill in case you drop it.

A 1kg first aid kit seems a lot unless you are medics/rescuers. Each carry a military-type field dressing (100g), some sticking plasters, blister kit, basic pain relief (include aspirin), crepe bandage (sprains or tie splints on) and maybe a small roll of zinc oxide tape (50g)(taping fingers together). [Broken ankles are the stock in trade of Scottish MR. Cut a ledge, belay jacket on, sit on rucksack, field dressing if open wound, check grid ref, phone 999, two paracetamol and a brufen, chocolate biscuit.]

Snow shovel? As well as 2 axes and a deadboy? In heavy and high risk snow conditions then transceiver, probe and shovel are appropriate.

You are sensible to consider spare lighting but a party of two has two torches. If you do want a spare then a Silverpoint stretch light or similar 'frog' LED lamp is about 20g.

Jackets? One layer of microfibre over good quality insulating and wicking material does the job for a lot of winter hill days. That's how Paramo and Buffalo work. So that's polyester or nylon (nylon=Pertex) or cotton (cotton=Ventile) microfibre. Some smocks weigh next to nothing: Paramo Fuera is 300g. If you are expecting a storm or heavy rain then your choice might be different though depending on you personal preferences.


[Having written that, I shall now need to work on taking my own advice.]

In reply to mmmhumous:

I recall many years ago watching two well known young climbers outside the CIC hut discussing whether they had enough gear to go and do Point Five. 'I've got a nut and screw.' <<I've got a nut and two pegs.>>

I think there was a single belay plate and a 9mm rope between them. Off they went.

Not a recommendation. Just an indication that most of us have always got too much kit and not enough talent!

In reply to Dell:



I have a problem with 'always/never' advice like this. Everything has pros and cons, and should be weighed up as such. Why two torches? Why not three? or four? (I carry one, typically, and I don't carry spare batteries for it, I just make sure the ones it has are reasonably fresh). Again, a bothy bag *and* an emergency silver bag? That's just excessive redundancy (in my opinion) if the goal is to reduce pack size.

In reply to Jim Fraser:




Exactly.

If in doubt (of using it ), don't carry it

But be prepared to live ( or not )with the consequences

In reply to mmmhumous:

It's a learning process really, takes a good number of times to get your 'system' right, I'm still making adjustments, leaving stuff behind, trying new things on the hill etc.

A good tip is to make maximum use of your rucksack space. I use those wee waterproof pod sac bags thingies that fold over on themselves and clip. You can ram so much in and compress them down to get all the air out then clip em shut. You'll be surprised how much you can fit in them.
Then with your neat little pod sacs you can stuff em in the smallest of spaces between other things in your main pack.

For me, the rope goes in first, then the rack (split with partner) I can get these pretty flat taking up only a small volume.

We split our rack, generally, like this:
Il take 1 1/2 set nuts and full set hexes
My partner will take cams and draws (6 normal, 3 sling draws)
Depending on route we will split pegs/warthogs/Bulldogs/screws etc
We each take our own slings (3x120cm & 1x240cm) screw gates and prussiks etc.

Then, harness goes in along with belay jacket compressed into pod sac (belay mitts in its zipped pockets)
I take another poc sac with my climbing layers: ME eclipse as base layer, thin down jacket as mid, neck buff and 2 pairs of climbing gloves.
Then il stuff 500ml plastic water bottle and 500ml lucozade sport into spaces down the side
After that, my food goes into another pod sac stuffed into my helmet and that sits on top then my hard shell gets stuffed around this.

I generally walk in with a very lightweight base layer, fleece (BD coefficient) and thin gloves and my hat. The base layer gets changed at base of route and left in the bag the rest of the day.

As far as extras go (all go into the top zipped pocket on the lid of my pack):
1 head torch (in dry bag)
Goggles
Guidebook (I like to take it)
Map (in dry bag) & compass
Emergency kit consisting off compeed, 2xhand warmers, paracetamol & ibuprofen, super lightweight emergency bag and whistle
Il also have another poc sac with emergency pair of gloves in - £6 skytec argon mega warm gloves (my phone gets tucked away inside these)

As far as food goes, same days I take to much and don't eat it all (unnecessary weight) but then next day I won't take enough and il be starving! So I usually take plenty. Things like weight gainer bars are good, loads of protein, carbs and calories. Couple energy bars (in jacket pocket) blue cheese (obviously) sweets and chocolate (lidl is amazing) and yeah il prob take a sandwich too or pork pies/pasties etc.
I no longer bother with a flask unless I have a cold in which case a 500ml flask with hot lemsip in

I drink loads of water all the time anyway so I get away with not carting loads of water up with me. Plus il eat a beauty of a breakfast...try this:
Porridge made with whole milk, some peanut butter mixed into with with honey, banana and double cream. Maybe a wee scoop of whey too.

In totally waffling on here and way off topic but I'm sat out in the North Sea right now bored.

All this will fit snug into a 40L sack with only my axes on the outside. No idea how much it weight but it's pretty minimalist and necessary. Besides, I don't really care how much it weights as you only end up carry a small amount after gearing up.
More weight will make u fitter and stronger

I can't wait for summer now...trail shoes and a 10L bag...it's a joy after slogging everything you own up a mountain in waist deep snow for 6 months...

In reply to mmmhumous:
A lot of talk over the first aid kits. As the majority of injuries/medical emergencies in the hills occur from slips, trips and falls and exposure (heat or cold) the contents of most of the off-the-shelf first aid kits are really not going to be much use.

When I'm not working in rescue/as a medic but I'm out with friends in the hills I generally carry a SAM splint with some 5mm trauma tape (or duct tape if you want the more rugged look), a triangular bandage, a wound dressing and some OPA airways (casualty taken a fall then unconcious). Then on top I will always have a group shelter or bivi, insulated layer and hat and an emergency type blanket. Personal kit will include compeed, rehydration tabs and some emergency Scooby snacks. That does not weigh/pack down too much at all.

Your job is too know where you are and call 999! You can stabilise the patient the best you can whilst waiting.

If on an expedition additions will be things like immodium, diarolyte, throat soothers, malaria prophylaxis, anti-imflamatories. Then a lot, lot more whilst working!

In reply to mmmhumous:

That's quite a bit of stuff...

I normally try to cram everything ('cept the rope, helmet and belay jacket) in Warthog 26. Might also strap the shell (either soft of hard, but not both) on the sack for the approach as well.

In the big lid pocket:
- Small 1st aid (mainly sports tape, strong Ibuprofein/Panacod and some "tissue" and an elastic bandaid for strains an all)
- Some snacks (varies, from bread to energy gels or protein bars)
- Camera & proper headlamp
- Spare "climbing gloves"
(- Topo or printouts)
(- Map & compass)

Small lid pocket:
- Wallet
- Car keys
- Phone (airplane mode)

Main pocket:
- Blizzard bag, so a really light & reflective bivysack
- Between .5 and 1 liter of water (usually 2x .5 bottles)
- Crampons (in a crampon pouch)
- Harness

- Rack....
Which depends on the stuff I aim to climb... For long pure ice climbs, it can be up top 12 screws (a stubby, ~4x 13cm, 4-6x 16cm, 0-2x 19cm and 2 x 21cm). 10 QDs of which 4 are extendable. A few locking biners, and a few extra slings (usually 240 and 2-3x 120).

For mixed lines, leave the stubby and 2x 13cm (max). Add 2 extendable QDs. About half a rack of nuts (mainly size 4 upwards). Cams from .5 to 2 or 3 (C4 sizes), but might also add the .3 and .4 if things are thing. A Bulldog (or two) and a Terrier. A few pitons. If things are rather ice, might add tricams and hexes plus drop on the amount of cams.

I can just about cram everything inside... but normally the partner also carries stuff so generally the protection part goes to one and the slings & QDs to the other...

In reply to mmmhumous:

Thats a huge list of climbing kit.

As far as ropes, racks and other hardware I'd suggest you keep a note of what you actually use when you do routes in winter. I did that many years ago and found that 90% of the junk never got used in winter. Small wires, nuts, hexes or whatever never really got used or would have been a waste of time in snowed up or iced up cracks.

For anything I've done at that grade I've probably only carried a handful of larger hexes or nuts on longer slings so you don't need lots of quickdraws etc., A handful of pegs, a couple of slings and thats about it apart from belaying stuff.

Keep a record and see what you use.

In reply to Dave Perry:




Although your advice is good in principle I don't think there's much on a rack consisting of a set of wires 1-10 plus DMM offsets plus hexes 11-15 and a couple of pegs that doesn't come in useful often enough that I'd be keen to leave behind. It's the screws we tend to drop, taking only one stubby, maybe two for mixed. Making 120cm slings double up as QDs is smart, the same with Terriers which double as pegs and turf pro.

A spare coat weighs more than a set of wires, as can a guidebook. As does 500ml water. And I know I'm glad to have a good arsenal to hand 10m above the last bit of gear.

In reply to HeMa:

Leave the wallet at home. It's no use on the hill.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:


Well...

I mainly climb in the Scandinavia and Alps... not Scotland.... so the wallet might came in handy at a nice refuge and/or restaurant...

It's light though, mainly having my drivers license, Visa and some cash... Not much bigger than a creditcard (in fact only a few mm wider and longer and about 7mm thick.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Don't you 'always' carry at least one torch?
There are some things that you should always carry, but I would never say never.

The goal with redundant items is that they should be small and light enough that you can carry them without noticing, my spare 20g torch is the size of my little finger, and the silver blanket weigh about as much as a bag of crisps, and is smaller than a smartphone. No reason not to leave them in the rucksack at all times.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

No way. I once had to descend on the opposite side of the hill to that intended and I needed to get a taxi to take me back.

Al

In reply to mmmhumous:

I am trending the other way on this and carrying slightly more. Big Flask, little flask, big bait box, bars, + litre of hot juice in an insulated water bottle (old sock) and all gear in big sacks. On arrival at hut/corrie get geared up, drink juice (now luke warm so easy to drink) and leave all the clobber behind. Little flask and bars in pockets for route or summit enjoyment. Often take the "lal gay bag" a 15l decathlon bag that packs down to the size of an apple on bigger routes with an extra jumper in it.

Climbing is much easier unencumbered and you have the morale boosting big flask and big bait when you get back to the hut, this makes the walk out so much more pleasant. Winter climbing involves enough suffering, why make things difficult for yourself?

In reply to Dell:




+1

Easy to forget to replace batteries in torch beforehand and much easier to change to a different torch on the hill than change the batteries then. More than 2 torches of course is just silly.

In reply to HeMa:

The OP asked about Ben Nevis! Refuges/restaurants ??? Not even in Fort William let alone on the hill ;-(

In reply to GridNorth:



Ok bank card and a tenner. No need for credit cards, photos of the wife and kids, coffee shop loyalty cards and other crap. Just think of all that weight you've saved.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

Well,

I carried the exact same stuff ('cept replaced one .5 l bottle with .5 thermos)... and didn't want to leave the tiny wallet in the car.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Never needed a belay jacket.

In reply to Steve Perry: how do you manage that - wear it all the time? What spare clothings in your bag?

In reply to planetmarshall:

Say one in a hundred chance of headtorch failure - not acceptable.
Two failing, one in10000 - acceptable.
Three failing, one in 1000000 - overkill.
Four failing, one in 100000000 - just silly.

I use a pretty small Petzl one plus spare batteries and a teny weeny BD one as backup.

In reply to Steve Perry:

Lucky (fat ;- ?) bastard.
I traversed the Aonach Eagach yesterday and was wearing seven layers including two belay jackets while on the move until the sun came out later on. I couldn't get by without a 60l sack just to carry all the clothes I need.

Apart from the clothing I carry less than the OP, except for a few more nuts and hexes and cams unless I'm certain the cracks will be iced up beyond use.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Spare torch vs batteries also works for damage,dropping and the (unlikely with LEDs) bulb failure.

In reply to Father Noel Furlong:

I'm sure someone would be willing to sell you something at the CIC. My father in law still tellls the tale of his partner lugging up a 24 pack of beer for just that reason

In reply to Steve Perry:


This is OK as long as you're always the one leading or your partners are always quite quick...

In reply to Michael Gordon:

I wear a vest and two icebreakers (thin ones), a Rab vapourise jacket and a Rab Latok outer shell, and an Extremeties balaclava. ME gloves and Paramo Cascada salopettes. Usually always swing leads and never used a belay jacket. I've been cold but not desperately, stamping feet works for me. I mainly climb with Andy Nisbet in winter, he's a similar build to me and he doesn't use one either.

Robert, I'm not fat I weigh 11st and I'm 5'9"

In reply to Michael Gordon:


there is a balance, you can take extra clothes in case you are slow, a spare charger for your phone in case it's long day, emergency this that and the other, some extra food/water etc... you reach the point where you are so heavy and slow, you are guaranteed to need it all, then still think your decision making was correct.

For me it's about refining your bag to suit the day, have a few small light things that can help if things turn against you, a small amount of food, ultra light 2nd torch etc.. etc... but don't drag the kitchen sink up the ben, ploughing through a foot of snow.

Sometimes on a stance you will chill a little waiting, then when pushing up a pitch a little warm, for me that's acceptable and I don't lose time taking jackets on/off, I just either vent or zip things up tight accordingly.

In reply to Steve Perry:


That's a lot of layers, Steve. You and Andy are vastly more experienced and competent than me but it seems likely your clothing system will weigh more than my 3 layers plus belay jacket, and provide less insulation. Are you wearing all those layers all the time? Or is it more a case that you slip on one of the shells at the belay?

It's certainly a hassle taking sac off to don the belay jacket but boy have I been glad of it stamping my feet for an hour and a half at the foot of some pitches. Or often just waiting to get on a popular route (not your style I realise).

In reply to Robert Durran:


I know I shouldn't laugh but your posts on winter clothing do make me chuckle. For an obviously decent climber, I have visions of a svelte rock cat being rendered an amorphous blob of polatec and pertex, unable to climb in winter due to the sheer weight and volume of clothing.

Sorry........ I do hope you manage to find a solution.

In reply to BnB: It sounds a lot but it's not bulky. A vapourise is quite a snug fitting slim fit softshell jacket and then I've just my shell over it (Latok). The base layers are thin. Once geared up yes they're on all the time and I'm rarely too hot, but later season sunshine can occasionally see me without the outer shell but that choice is usually made before the climb - those are the best days.

In reply to mmmhumous: Your alternative is to take one belay jacket and share it depending on who's belaying, I saw boys gearing up to do that on Beinn Eighe last week to save bulk/weight.

In reply to Robert Durran:


That can't be right, Robert. I realise I'm at the other end of the spectrum - but there's got to be something wrong here. Has your diet changed dramatically? What's your aerobic fitness like? I believe that can help to improve circulation ( and thus help to regulate your body temperature ).

In reply to BnB:

I was simply suggesting a method of assessing whether you actually use what you take so you can if you wish evaluate what you carry.

You see so many people on the hill carrying what many would consider overkill on on a summer crag.

I wasn't commenting on 'personal' items either'. Its years since I last bothered carry liquids in the winter. There's enough liquid or snow/ice to satisfy a normal thirst.

In reply to Dave Perry:

Yes, that's a good discipline andone I try to follow. I was elaborating rather trying to counter your viewpoint. I think there's a lot of weight-saving to be done away from the rack before discarding every other wire as some would recommend.

In reply to planetmarshall:


I'm afraid it is right. I've always worn more clothes than my climbing partners but have just felt gradually colder and colder as I've got older to the point where I seriously question whether it is worth persevering with "hard" (ie involving long belays) winter climbing. I havn't changed what I eat, I'm pretty fit (though have been fitter). If anything I'm less skinny than I was when younger though it varies a little bit nowadays. Technical climbing is not so easy dressed as Michelin man with a big belay jacket in the rucksack. I get really envious of those people wearing two or three layers with a tiny belay jacket hanging off the back of their harness!

In reply to mmmhumous:
THE OBVIOUS
Axes and lanyard
Harness
1/2 ropes
Helmet
Crampons

Rack

One full of set wires
2-3 hexes on wire
2-3 tricams
2 big hexes on dyneema
6 60cm slingdraws (inc crabs)
2 120cm slingdraws (inc crabs)
1 240cm sling
4 screwgates
2 pegs
1 bulldog
1 warthog
3 17cm and 2 22cm screws
tat and knife (improvise threader with nut wire or sling)

OTHER
- First aid Kit (6" IDF compression bandage and naprosyn)
- 1 Head torch (spare batteries)
- Compass
- Phone
- Map/ guidebook photocopies in a tethered A4 zip bag
- 0.5L flask (I drink 1.5L at breakfast)
- zip bag of savoury mix (diced cheese and salami) and sweet mix (nuts, sweets etc)
- SOL emergency bag

SPARE CLOTHING
- Climbing gloves
- Shell Mitts
- Belay bodywarmer or jacket depending

WEARING
- Thin walk-in gloves
- Brynje top and bottom
- Thin grid fleece hoody
- Soft shell jacket and trousers (hardshell if weather minging)

Exped Work and Rescue 50 sack
Nothing wrong with a bigger sack than you need, makes rummaging easier and less likely to lose stuff as opposed to exploding 20 L sack on snow slope

In reply to mmmhumous:
Deadboy, shovel, charger and tricams. Possibly first aid kit and some of the water. Sandwiches?

As a caveat, I would stick with a 40L sack as long as you have the discipline not to fill it brimfull . It's much quicker and easier to stuff your gear into a bigger sack, especially when conditions are deteriorating, rather than try and squeeze everything into 25L, despite any "cool factor" that might convey.

Headtorches are so light these days that there's no reason not to stick a couple in - and not just for your own sake. There were two occasions last year that I was able to save someone's bacon by lending them my spare.

In reply to iksander:

Do you not take any normal extenders?

Stuart

In reply to Peter Metcalfe:

"cool factor"??? Good grief. If you want to carry a larger pack, do so. You will be in good company, but don't defend it by suggesting that people carrying smaller packs are doing it just to be 'cool'.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Lots of decent advice in this thread.

I don't see the point of carrying a shovel unless you're also going to take a probe and transceiver.

In reply to Stuart the postie:



Nope, skinny 60cm slings don't weigh much more and are more versatile IMHO

In reply to Stuart the postie:

Hi Stuart,
Hope you're well mate. I don't use "normal extenders" at all.....never have done....summer or winter. I use slings folded slings all the time....I like kit that does more than one job and slings are far more versatile...
Barbeg

In reply to Stuart the postie:


I think one of the benefits of only taking slingdraws is that it simplifies decision-making. If all your extenders are flexible in length and usage you can just grab the first available without thinking "should I go for a shortie here to save the long ones for offset placements". With thin dyneema there isn't much of a weight penalty.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Accept it, you're obviously just a fashion victim. What's the benefit of taking less kit and ensuring it's the lightest possible? It's just a fad.....

In reply to iksander:

So you only place 6 or 8 runners per pitch?

Stuart

In reply to galpinos:


You must have seen my bright yellow trousers.

In reply to Stuart the postie:


Probably not that unusual for Scottish Winter. Maybe a bit on the bold side for harder mixed stuff.

In reply to Stuart the postie:

I suppose many cams and hexes don't need QDs but I reckon I have about 10 for mixed and big ice pitches. 3 will be slingdraws but the rope end krab flips around and can make clipping a total hassle with snowy gloves and cold fingers. Then i want the easiest clipping normal QD!

In reply to TobyA:
Hi Toby,

I pretty much always extend cams so they don't walk, usually rack them 2 per krab. Hexes the same, unless I'm short, rack them 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, 11.

12 extenders (3 or 4 are 60cm) is the norm, often arrive at belay with none left!

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie:

For II-IV ice as the OP said - yes, more for harder or mixed or unusually long pitches like euro ice

In reply to iksander:

Right, I never realized it was in reference to OP. I just assume everyone climbs similar stuff to me!

Okaydokay

Stuart

In reply to Stuart the postie:



I'm trying to think of a pitch in the UK while winter climbing, when I've ever placed as many as that?

In reply to Goucho:

8 quickdraws would be quite bold on a lot of mixed pitches

In reply to Stuart the postie:

I like my fancy Dragon cams these days for winter because they have the double up sling! So long since I've done a good long proper Scottish mixed pitch maybe I'm underestimating how many I used to use, but I think 10 did me ok on some pretty technical mixed climbs in the Lakes last winter (only skied this winter, the shame!)

In reply to galpinos:


That is a sadly accurate description of me..........except the bit about the svelte rock cat.

In reply to mmmhumous:

Think about boots, helmet, axes and crampons. That is major weight. so get the lightest you can find. My crampons are alloy. My sac is only 15/20ltr so no room for extra gear (just energy bars, drink, lightweight insulated jacket and sometimes a 2 man bivvy shelter +cut down map & compass. Then at the end of the day, throw away the rope and rac and just solo. A brilliant experience if you have confidence and the conditions are ok. Only luxury is my SLR. And finally I never carry a phone on the hill. This gives total sac weight 7kgs max and it gets even lighter as I consume the food & drink!

In reply to mmmhumous:
I'd leave the deadman and angles - if it's technical ground, there should be a belay somewhere, if it's a snow slope, learn to move confidently.
Also leave the snow shovel - what on earth is that for? Unless you and your partner are carrying full avalanche kit (that's another discussion).
USB charger, again why? Second head torch is very sensible though.
You don't need a kilo of first aid and emergency shelter kit! Take a fist sized first aid kit and a lightweight shelter.
Limit to 1L of water or less. Just hydrate well the night before and in the morning. There are often streams around anyway.
Get s lighter bag. I use the crux ak47, large enough but very light.
Also get a lighter rope. Icelines are great. For routes that have shorter pitches, consider having a separate pair of 50m ropes as opposed to the 60m you might need for ice routes. Although that's a bit of a extravagance.

In reply to Webster:
Lucky you that you can get away without a soft shell plus hard shell for climbing and a belay jacket for belays. I need all three for belaying as I get cold easily. Depends on genetics / body type (so that's a personal thing) and how long you spend belaying (can easily be an hour for me but on grade II-IV per the OP should be less than that). Also depends if you go out in crap weather!

As for runners, depends on what you're climbing. I've placed over a dozen in long mixed pitches near my limit. Hexes with individual draws and the DMM Dragons with extendable slings and individual draws help cut down on number of QDs needed. Whether to take cams is in itself a judgement depending on route / condition.

In reply to Steve Perry:


Ok if you don't get cold even on long belays. What if you or your partner have an accident and have to wait for hours in bad weather?

In reply to Misha:

It's partly a generational thing I reckon Misha. Belay jackets have only really been a 'thing' since the end of the 90s when the Patagonia brought out the DAS. Once again Buffalo had been ahead of the game with their belay jacket from maybe 10 years before that, but they were only used by us freak in the 90s who went full Buffalo (Big Face shirt with crotch strap for maximum non-fashion points). For most people it was fleeces under a goretex. Some people might take a spare fleece with them, but really the idea of putting a jacket over your jacket just seemed weird at the time!

I have no idea how old Steve is, but maybe he started climbing before belays jackets were normal? Or maybe he's just dead hard and never feels the cold!

I wrote my UKC article on belay jackets in 2008 http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=1375 and I guess they were only starting to become really common then.

In reply to Misha:


To be fair, the system of having one warm jacket between two (for the belayer) doesn't allow for the above anyway as only one of you will be warm enough. Could be more of an argument for just assessing weather conditions when gearing up and wearing all the time or going without depending on the route, how easily you get cold etc.

In reply to Michael Gordon:
I get cold anyway just belaying so will wear softshell plus hardhell when climbing and take a belay jacket for belays. Pretty much all my climbing partners do the same. Staying warm enough can be a lifesaver and at the very least makes the climbing experience more enjoyable / bearable, so I'm not going to skimp on a belay jacket or softshell just to save weight. It's nice to lead without a sack but you can still take a belay jacket up in a stuff sack attached to the back of the harness, that works pretty well.

In reply to TobyA:


You could (carefully) fit some of those petzl "string" doodahs to the rope crabs?

In reply to TobyA:


Steve may well be dead hard, but that's nothing to do with not feeling the cold. Being hard is feeling the cold and still choosing to belay in shorts and a string vest.

In reply to Misha:


Well you could go down the 'what if' route ad infinitum. For me the 'line' is whether or not, if the worst comes to the worst, I can survive overnight until help comes. In which case for a lot of (not all) conditions and environments a belay jacket is a comfort rather than a necessity.

In reply to planetmarshall:


I would agree with your first point having gone from a 100l backpacking sack for winter down to 40l (see my user name !), but surely in the context of Scottish winter a warm jacket is a necessity for a night out?
I say this as someone who spent just such a night out two years back with a broken face/very limited vision and with a warm jacket was able to climb out with huge help from MRT. Without the belay jacket I'm sure it would have been a very different situation. I know this is an extreme example but after 30+ years in the winter hills I thought I could avoid such scenarios, but when it all went wrong I was very glad the belay jacket had made it into my 26l rucksack.

In reply to More-On:


I don't think it's a necessity, no. Could it make the difference between life and death? Possibly, but so could a lot of things that you may or may not carry depending on the circumstances.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I would agree with your last point and I should have added 'immobile' or similar to my sentence, as if up and moving, yes I'm sure I could get by.
Over the years I've learned to substitute/improvise most things and radically lightened my load, but regard a warm layer as the one thing that I cannot improvise well and that might just tip the balance in your favour if immobile/in a blizzard etc etc.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Correction: the "line" is whether you can survive overnight AND be in a fit state to extricate yourself in the morning. Letting the possibility of rescue affect the contents of your sack or your planning is irresponsible. You should always plan, pack and climb as if rescue is an impossibility. Putting others' at risk by getting rescued is a privilege not a right. Yes, shit can happen, so be prepared for it.

I always carry a bothy bag, which I think could be a real life saver. On Saturday I waited for nearly an hour for it to get light on top of Am Bodach on the Aonach Eagach for it to get light. It was quite cold and a bit windy and I was getting quite quickly chilled (in my seven layers of clothing including two belay jackets......... ). I got into my bothy bag and actually dozed off; a whole night would not have been too bad. I reckon two people in a bothy bag overnight would be pretty much ok in really quite bad conditions.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Going by how cold I've got on some belays, I've serious doubts as to whether the average climber could survive a proper cold night out without a decent jacket. Of course with enough thinner layers the effect is the same, but putting them on doesn't have the same satisfaction!

In reply to Robert Durran:


Being in a fit state to extricate yourself may not be a factor under your control. The assumption here was that something goes sufficiently wrong to leave you injured enough to be immobile with rescue by a 3rd party the only option. I was making no assumption about rescue actually being available.

If you're not immobile or injured enough to need rescue then the need to keep warm with extra layers is far reduced, and extricating yourself rather than staying out overnight is a far more likely scenario.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


If this thread shows anything it's that there is no such thing as the 'average' climber, or to be more specific there's a very wide variation in what climbers are willing to tolerate. I've climbed out all night (deliberately) in Winter on Ben Nevis without a belay jacket and would happily do so again in similar conditions.

In reply to More-On:

Digressing somewhat, but following Robert's comment on using his bothy bag, I feel compelled to point out that during my accident I found myself on a 60 degree slope and thus unable to use any sort of bag with ease! At this point I was even more glad of a jacket I could pull on one handed.

This isn't to say bothy bags aren't a good thing, quite the opposite for most, but not all, circumstances...

In reply to Misha: There's a lot of 'what ifs' in winter climbing and unfortunately you can't carry equipment for all of them but I get what you're saying.

In reply to Steve Perry:
I mostly ski-mountaineer these days so tend to not spend ages hanging around on belays (or carrying massive amounts of climbing kit - a harness, rope and enough gear to rig a couple of ice / rock belays / abseil anchors at most), but the discussion about clothing / equipment vs. risk is a very pertinent one.

I've cut down what I take on the hill more and more as time goes on. I'm now down to always taking (along with a thermal top that is worn):

- Lightweight soft-shell jacket (Rab Vapor-rise thingy)
- Lightweight hard-shell jacket
- Small packable down jacket (primaloft thingy)
- Two pairs of gloves (one heavy, one light)
- 1 Litre of water
- Some chocolate
- Skins
- Ski crampons
- Axe(s)

I sometimes carry a bivvie bag, but am happy to trade that for extra weight saving. It's all about the personal risk line, and nothing to do with recklessness of believing in the privilige of rescue.

This all fits in a 32L pack, with optimisations such as if the skins are in the pack, I will be skiing downhill so wearing the hardshell (space for space).

This has done me fine with up to full days in 50mph winds with -20 degrees windchill. I didn't break a leg and have to stave off disaster though; I accept that risk.

In reply to mmmhumous:
Are they smaller than you? Big people's clothes take up lots more room than small people's clothes!

Can your snow shovel blade do the same job? I'm sure I've seen a snow shovel designed to be used as a deadman.

do your tricams do the same job, or are the hexes bigger?

Can you not cut up one of your slings if you need to do a tat job?

roll of electricians' tape and pack of tissues should be enough? Is the tape too brittle in the cold though?

1 spare between the pair of you should suffice?

If you carry your phone turned off / locked etc. make sure your climbing partner can unlock it!

I think sandwiches are better than sweets due to their energy release characteristics.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Yes, a big difference between that and enduring an unplanned night out, stationary, in poor weather.

In reply to planetmarshall:
Hmmm I wouldn't fancy surviving overnight without a belay jacket if I'm immobilised. Anyway, bottom line is for me (and everyone is different) a belay jacket makes belaying and gearing up etc a lot more comfortable, so not taking just to save weight simply doesn't make sense for me (and again everyone will be different).

In reply to Misha:

why do you need 2 shells for climbing? that's just illogical! sounds like you need to sort out your mid layering system! the op said he was carrying one as a spare, which is silly. if your expecting wet then wear a hardshell, if not then ether a hard or soft shell and you still have your belay jacket for if shit hits the fan

In reply to planetmarshall:

Mark Twight advocates keeping moving in his book "Extreme Alpinism". That's all well and good if you are as fit as he is but there have been times in the Alps for me when I have just been sooooo grateful to stop moving

Al

In reply to mmmhumous:

People with different physiologies and attitudes to suffering with different levels of experience operating at widely differing grades in different locations and conditions.

It's not surprising we can't reach a consensus on what works!

In reply to DaveHK:

I tend to feel that warm toasty and slower is more fun than fast light and miserable,(and a lot more survivable)
It's only going to get dark.

But it all depends where you are going.

In reply to Webster:
Because I'm skinny and get cold very easily. Not when climbing or if walking in fast in ok weather but at all other times I need the layers. The weight isn't an issue, comfort is. Especially if belaying for over an hour in crap weather!

In reply to GridNorth:

If you climb fast you can't be finding it very hard. Fast n' light is a euphemism for not really pushing yourself (at least technically).

In reply to Robert Durran:


Tell that to Ueli Steck.

In reply to James Jackson:


I'm sure he'd agree that he is well within his technical limits when speed climbing. I'd be more impressed if he did a route which took ten days - that would have to be properly hard.

In reply to Misha:

yeh but why 2 shells? you can wear as many mid layers as you want/need to keep warm but you can only wear 1 outer shell so why carry 2? like I say illogical! if your using a softshell as a mid layer then fair enough but there are far better/warmer options as mid layers, and the op wasn't suggesting that, they were suggesting carrying it?

In reply to Webster:
I use the softshell essentially as a midlayer most of the time. I don't think that's particularly uncommon. Anyway, I find it works well. I know there are other options available.

In reply to Misha:


Same with me (over all my other midlayers).

In reply to planetmarshall:


"until help comes"


Extricating yourself is far more likely if you are not hypothermic.

In reply to Robert Durran:


If you are immobile, and help doesn't come, the possession or otherwise of a belay jacket will quickly become moot.

In reply to planetmarshall:


........and not having warm enough clothing is more likely to result immobility. Obviously some accidents will not allow self rescue and, if no help comes, you will die, but hypothermia while either self-rescuing or waiting for rescue can only make the situation worse (quite possibly fatal). Personally I consider it crazy and probably irresponsible not to be equipped to avoid hypothermia while moving or benighted (ie I carry warm clothing and a bothy bag).

In reply to planetmarshall:


A belay jacket will lengthen the time you can wait for help without dying from hypothermia.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Well again you're into 'what if' territory here. "Equipped to avoid hypothermia" covers quite a wide spectrum, all the way up to carrying a complete change of clothing, shelter and a source of heat ( which I imagine would be above and beyond what most Scottish Winter climbers would be willing to carry ).

I don't know if my tolerance for cold weather translates into being less likely to become hypothermic, and it's not something I'm keen to put to the test. However my own observations indicate that I have a high metabolic rate, which could mean I would be more resistant to the onset of hypothermia than someone with a slower metabolism ( though this is just one of many factors affecting the onset of hypothermia ).

In summary, I don't consider it 'irresponsible' not to carry a belay jacket if I don't think that the conditions merit it.

In reply to DaveHK:


It might. It might also have caused you to take a larger pack, which got snagged in a chimney, caused you to fall and break your ankle, resulting in you getting hypothermia while waiting for help to arrive.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I see from your profile that you have only been climbing for 3 years. Robert Durran has been climbing for many, many more. If I needed advice from anyone I know who I would listen to.

A belay jacket is hardly a "moot point", it could be the difference between life and death.

Al

In reply to planetmarshall:


Ropes are dangerous too; you might fall off, get it wrapped around your neck and die instantly, rather than landing in a nice soft snow drift at the bottom of the route. As for all those lethal pointy bits of metal.......

In reply to GridNorth:


If I find someone who's been climbing for even longer who doesn't carry a belay jacket, can I not carry one then?

Robert is a grown man, I'm sure he doesn't need a cheerleader.

In reply to planetmarshall:


All I'm saying is that I want to be equipped so that, if I end up spending the night out in fairly bad conditions (shit tends to hit the fan in bad conditions), I will stand a good chance of still being in a fit state to sort things out and get off the hill in the morning. To me that means carrying a belay jacket (in addition to what I'm comfortable moving in) plus a bothy bag. If it means something else to you then fine.

In reply to planetmarshall:


It's got nothing to do with what anyone else does; it's about your own judgement and sense of responsibility to anyone who might have to rescue you.

In reply to planetmarshall:



Of course, it's a personal decision and your personal decision would be based on your experience. Robert's experience is greater and could therefore be considered to be more valid to someone with no experience looking for advice. There is of course no guarantee but I think it unwise to dismiss it out of hand.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

And, to get back on topic, mine is definitely a lot bigger, although, metaphorically, my balls are undeniably smaller than they once were.

In reply to GridNorth:


No one is dismissing anything. This is a public forum where anyone is entitled to an opinion, and equally anyone looking for advice is capable of clicking on a person's profile and establishing what experience they have - I don't think they need to have it pointed out.

I am not for one second telling anyone what they should and should not carry on the hill. As has been said, it's about personal responsibility and personal choice - and of course the freedom to develop that experience through the survival of numerous errors of judgement. My experience, limited though it may be, has led me to find a belay jacket superfluous on many (not all) occasions. If something goes wrong could it mean the difference between life and death? Yes, obviously, but so could many things, and I'd rather focus my energy on preventing things from going wrong in the first place.

In reply to planetmarshall:

I don't think we are disagreeing, perhaps I sensed a tone in the post that was not there.

My duvet jacket once saved someone's life in the Alps. A walker had twisted an ankle on the approach to the Couvercle hut and banged his head when he fell. The weather closed in, the rescue team were unable to send the helicopter and the team were unable to get to us in a timely fashion. I was able to get up and walk around to keep some warmth but the victim was immobilised and was beginning to develop signs of hypothermia. The rescuers, who didn't arrive until the next day, said that my jacket probably saved his life. The point of this story is that twisting an ankle is one of the most common and easiest things to do in the mountains and hypothermia one of the biggest killers and something that is easily avoidable. I would add that I have never carried a sleeping bag in the Alps but always some form of insulating jacket which serves a dual purpose and is therefore worth carrying. IMO that is

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

I have always felt more comfortable doing route is the Alps with planned bivis rather than single day routes - I am carrying bivi gear anyway and know that I can survive for a reasonable length of time if things go wrong. The oft repeated mantra "if you carry bivi gear then you will need it (because you'll be slower)" has never sat well with me; I'd rather feel the weight of safety on my back.

In reply to GridNorth:

Good story. I was able to give a parched fellow climber some water once on the way back up the Midi Arete. He was grateful, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I saved his life . I have far less experience in the Alps, and would probably make more conservative choices when packing for routes there until I became more familiar with the environment and the conditions.

There is, incidentally, a lot of useful advice on this thread. I've ordered one of those tiny Petzl torches to carry as a backup, as at 27g it seems like a bit of a no brainer.

In reply to Robert Durran:


There have been 2 occasions in the alps - SF of the Fou & NF of the Plan, where I've gone for the lightweight no sleeping (not even a Pied d elephant, my prefered choice for many years) no bivi bag, no mat approach.

On both occasions we got hit by storms (the one on the Fou being a particularly spectacular and terrifying lightening storm) resulting in enforced bivi's, which were extremely unpleasant to sit out in just a duvet jacket with legs in rucksacs.

I'd sooner be slow and warm, as opposed to fast and freezing.

In reply to Goucho:

I've done the Frendo Spur twice. It was my very first alpine route. We bivied at the bottom and then had to bivi near the top. I was still cold despite carrying far too much gear and being quite fit as I was in my 20's. Many years later I did it again in my mid 50's and did it in the day, mainly because we carried less gear. I preferred the latter.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:



I've tended to find that unless I've been doing a route with a planned bivi, it's usually the weather crapping out that has caused enforced bivi's - over many alpine seasons, including in winter, it's never been due to injuries or accident - so I've nearly always carried bivi gear with me as a standard part of my kit just in case.

And judging by the number of other parties I've overtaken on routes, I don't think the extra weight slowed me down that much either.

In reply to planetmarshall:
A belay jacket doesn't weight much and doesn't take up much space so to me it's a no brainer to take it. In practice, I need it anyway as I get cold easily but you are by the looks of it one of the lucky few who can stand the cold (even when belaying in crap weather for over an hour?). I can see that you wouldn't bother with a belay jacket if you genuinely don't need it - until the day you really need it for whatever reason... Of course that day might never come. I'm like that with storm shelters. Still haven't got round to getting one even though it makes sense to carry one.

In reply to Misha:

This is what you need for emergencies: http://www.facewest.co.uk/AMK-Heatsheets-Emergency-Bivvy.html

About the size of an apple and weighs HeeHaw.

In reply to Misha:


Ding ding... even a rather bulky belay jacket fits nicely under the helmet on the walk in...

And when crampons, rack, harness and all the other climbing gear is out, the jacket fits inside the sack...

Albeit, for Scotland approaches perhaps down is not the way to go (unless in a watertight sack).

And as Dave stated above, a Blizzard bag is the way to go. Not much bigger than a rescue blanket, but due to being a sleeping bag kind of thing, much much warmer and better at also blocking wind chill.

In reply to DaveHK:

Thanks I'll get something like that. Good for the Alps as well.

In reply to HeMa:
Down isn't great when it's wet or even just snowing. So I have a synthetic one. Doesn't quite fit in a helmet but just about fits into a 3 litre stuff sack, which can be clipped onto a harness if climbing without a rucksack.

In reply to Misha:


True dat...

Infact I think only my thinnest fits inside the helmet... but the nice thing about the Warthog is the nifty helmet-net on top of the lid... and it stretches.

In reply to HeMa:


Mine is clearly much bigger than yours. Even the smaller one I wear all the time climbing is bigger than yours.

In reply to mmmhumous:

I don't think of those smaller garments, that could fit in a helmet for example ,are really what I would class as a belay jacket. A belay jacket to me is quite bulky in comparison because it has to go on top of whatever else you are wearing. I have a RAB Belay Jacket which is a lot bulkier than my Montane Featherlight. The latter would pack inside a helmet but the former would not.

Al

In reply to Robert Durran:
Kind of doubt that... my big one is Alpkit Mens M Filo, with a hood.

But as I already replied to Misha... the helmet holder stretches...

In reply to HeMa:

Robert's got 2 and they're both huge, hood or no hood. He's been banging on about them for weeks now. He uses them so much that he's going to wear them out if he's not careful.