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When I first did a prizeless fun league I would avoid even seeing someone do a climb - ok, that was silly. Gradually, over 2 yrs I've gone from that to leaving some climbs till I've seen them being done and feeling unlucky if I don't get that chance, even 'mentioning' not having seen X climb done. I said to staff that I hadn't seen a climb done and was offered a demo but at that point declined, because they're staff and that just felt too grubby.
Last month I got offered (not courted as it happened) a demo of 2 climbs I wouldn't have even tried, just assumed they would be too hard - I flashed both when I tried them a few days later. I think that was the first time there was no possibility that the information didn't significantly effect my score.
On the one hand I'm open about it and feeling funny about it to venue staff. I agree it is in no way against any rules and that for lots of the entrants is part of the fun as they can attend on the night the problems go up or go with companions to climb together.
It's not exactly a cutting edge comp, although the prizes are pretty good. I'm meticulous not to touch any holds but will brush them off if they're very chalky, not try to feel them though. I do look at them carefully and sometimes climb up next to a route to see what they look like (not if I've seen it climbed!!). Once I hold the start hold/holds I either get to the top or count as an attempt. At the top I have to make a count of 3 - slowly, both hands on the hold.
I do care lots not to cheat but in between trying to not make extra rules that disadvantage me and still keeping my own sense of fair play I feel a bit like I've got lost.
What do people think who enter fun leagues?
Last month I got offered (not courted as it happened) a demo of 2 climbs I wouldn't have even tried, just assumed they would be too hard - I flashed both when I tried them a few days later. I think that was the first time there was no possibility that the information didn't significantly effect my score.
On the one hand I'm open about it and feeling funny about it to venue staff. I agree it is in no way against any rules and that for lots of the entrants is part of the fun as they can attend on the night the problems go up or go with companions to climb together.
It's not exactly a cutting edge comp, although the prizes are pretty good. I'm meticulous not to touch any holds but will brush them off if they're very chalky, not try to feel them though. I do look at them carefully and sometimes climb up next to a route to see what they look like (not if I've seen it climbed!!). Once I hold the start hold/holds I either get to the top or count as an attempt. At the top I have to make a count of 3 - slowly, both hands on the hold.
I do care lots not to cheat but in between trying to not make extra rules that disadvantage me and still keeping my own sense of fair play I feel a bit like I've got lost.
What do people think who enter fun leagues?
In reply to flopsicle:
It isn't really a fair comp if you're applying different rules to everyone else, and the moral high ground doesn't score any bonus points. If it's a flash comp rather than onsight then it's all part of the game to be cunning about not being the guinea pig. If you're in an onsight comp or an onsight later round of a comp the rules change and so does the game. If I were you I wouldn't let it get to you and just seek to get out of it whatever you think you will enjoy the most.
It isn't really a fair comp if you're applying different rules to everyone else, and the moral high ground doesn't score any bonus points. If it's a flash comp rather than onsight then it's all part of the game to be cunning about not being the guinea pig. If you're in an onsight comp or an onsight later round of a comp the rules change and so does the game. If I were you I wouldn't let it get to you and just seek to get out of it whatever you think you will enjoy the most.
9
In reply to flopsicle:
Better to loose with honour than win by cheating.
Touching start holds is ok if they can be reached without leaving the floor but not any others.
An attempt starts when your last bit of you leaves the floor (foot, bum ect).
Lots of people do not mark of the attempts as they do them & then when they do top out they seem to forget they have already had a few goes. We see this at lots of comps all over the country, if I see it I mention it to them. Even scanning the scores can show it up as some have a score that would not be possible unless they got all the tops on a first attempt & you have seen them fail on a few. Its worse in the kids comps as the parents seem to encourage it, not even marking the attempt after their kid had got half way up before falling off.
If the comp has a final it is easy to see the ones that cheated as they go into the final in a high place &leave it in a low one.
Better to loose with honour than win by cheating.
Touching start holds is ok if they can be reached without leaving the floor but not any others.
An attempt starts when your last bit of you leaves the floor (foot, bum ect).
Lots of people do not mark of the attempts as they do them & then when they do top out they seem to forget they have already had a few goes. We see this at lots of comps all over the country, if I see it I mention it to them. Even scanning the scores can show it up as some have a score that would not be possible unless they got all the tops on a first attempt & you have seen them fail on a few. Its worse in the kids comps as the parents seem to encourage it, not even marking the attempt after their kid had got half way up before falling off.
If the comp has a final it is easy to see the ones that cheated as they go into the final in a high place &leave it in a low one.
5
3
In reply to Richard Wilson:
I count attempts rigorously, but I'm definitely not so foolish as be the first person on a problem I suspect I might find hard. Prior Preparation Prevents P*ss Poor Performance & all that.
I count attempts rigorously, but I'm definitely not so foolish as be the first person on a problem I suspect I might find hard. Prior Preparation Prevents P*ss Poor Performance & all that.
8
In reply to john arran:
Yep - I don't know why I thought it was wrong to see someone do a climb at the start, but then I knew almost nothing accept aretes and volumes were in, 2 hands on the last hold to finish, once you start it's an attempt. My sole ambition was not to come last and I managed 5th out of 6! At that level beyond fair play and having the bottle to submit my scores I couldn't see a lot else to feel proud of.
Once I entered vet classes with a prize and then went and won a prize or 2, I did slowly stop trying to keep extra rules. I didn't really worry about it again till I got a score I never thought I'd get and got it as a direct result of encouragement and information. I don't get to attend comp nights apart from final night when my kid is in tow so it's hectic with limited time to discuss much or watch.
Yep - I don't know why I thought it was wrong to see someone do a climb at the start, but then I knew almost nothing accept aretes and volumes were in, 2 hands on the last hold to finish, once you start it's an attempt. My sole ambition was not to come last and I managed 5th out of 6! At that level beyond fair play and having the bottle to submit my scores I couldn't see a lot else to feel proud of.
Once I entered vet classes with a prize and then went and won a prize or 2, I did slowly stop trying to keep extra rules. I didn't really worry about it again till I got a score I never thought I'd get and got it as a direct result of encouragement and information. I don't get to attend comp nights apart from final night when my kid is in tow so it's hectic with limited time to discuss much or watch.
In reply to Richard Wilson:
Absolutely re attempts!! If my card is in reception I don't touch, the only exception is back end of the month when I might play on a problem if already on the 'any subsequent attempt'.
The last final I did I climbed better than through the league because I'd had a few oweys over the summer. I get really nervous and rushed as even with someone there just for her my little 'un wants my time, especially while she does her climbs (understandably!). Apart from final night when I have no choice I don't do comp problems when my kid's with me as my head isn't on it.
Absolutely re attempts!! If my card is in reception I don't touch, the only exception is back end of the month when I might play on a problem if already on the 'any subsequent attempt'.
The last final I did I climbed better than through the league because I'd had a few oweys over the summer. I get really nervous and rushed as even with someone there just for her my little 'un wants my time, especially while she does her climbs (understandably!). Apart from final night when I have no choice I don't do comp problems when my kid's with me as my head isn't on it.
In reply to flopsicle:
The best beta I got from watching someone in comp was about using wall features. I saw them using these for their hands and asked the staff if they were allowed. It turned out all features were allowed for hands which I didn't know. This helped me hugely in numerous subsequent routes.
The funny thing about other people's beta though is that they might not be doing it the best way. But once you watch someone it's hard not to do it the same way.
The best beta I got from watching someone in comp was about using wall features. I saw them using these for their hands and asked the staff if they were allowed. It turned out all features were allowed for hands which I didn't know. This helped me hugely in numerous subsequent routes.
The funny thing about other people's beta though is that they might not be doing it the best way. But once you watch someone it's hard not to do it the same way.
1
In reply to flopsicle:
You should see the youth comps. As someone said earlier, you can tell a mile away who has cheated because they stand out a mile in the finals.
My daughter tends to be the opposite to a lot on here. We can pretty much tell on sight if she can do a climb, even in competitions. At the manchester open at the depot recently they had 30 climbs to do. She knocked off 23 of them 1st time in little over 1.5hrs (Including waiting for climbs). It didnt matter if she had another 5 hrs to do the rest she wasnt going to get them unless she grew 1ft in that time. Basically if its within her skillset and reach ability i would say she will get it 90% of the time. She doesnt give a hoot if she goes 1st time at all, she climbs her way and doesnt copy anyone. If you make the finals that tends to be how the winners succeed anyhow
You should see the youth comps. As someone said earlier, you can tell a mile away who has cheated because they stand out a mile in the finals.
My daughter tends to be the opposite to a lot on here. We can pretty much tell on sight if she can do a climb, even in competitions. At the manchester open at the depot recently they had 30 climbs to do. She knocked off 23 of them 1st time in little over 1.5hrs (Including waiting for climbs). It didnt matter if she had another 5 hrs to do the rest she wasnt going to get them unless she grew 1ft in that time. Basically if its within her skillset and reach ability i would say she will get it 90% of the time. She doesnt give a hoot if she goes 1st time at all, she climbs her way and doesnt copy anyone. If you make the finals that tends to be how the winners succeed anyhow
4
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
At least at that comp they were scored so no cheating.
What a great venue.
We have been twice now, both times for comps.
At least at that comp they were scored so no cheating.
What a great venue.
We have been twice now, both times for comps.
In reply to flopsicle:
I haven't done any proper comps for a while, but in the ones I have done in the last few years (local bouldering wall comps) I will always play within the rules but I will take max advantage within the rules to win.
So I'll warm up on the easier problems and only attempt the hard ones when I'm ready and I've seen or been told the beta from someone else. However if someone asks me I will give beta out to people if I know it.
I'd feel holds that can be felt from the ground and brush other holds if need be but if I pull on and both feet leave the ground then it's an attempt. Although if a hold spins or something then the attempt is void.
I haven't done any proper comps for a while, but in the ones I have done in the last few years (local bouldering wall comps) I will always play within the rules but I will take max advantage within the rules to win.
So I'll warm up on the easier problems and only attempt the hard ones when I'm ready and I've seen or been told the beta from someone else. However if someone asks me I will give beta out to people if I know it.
I'd feel holds that can be felt from the ground and brush other holds if need be but if I pull on and both feet leave the ground then it's an attempt. Although if a hold spins or something then the attempt is void.
In reply to flopsicle:
I sometime watch somebody else do a problem before I try it, it's nice to get a bit of beta, but often either there is nobody around trying it or nobody wants to be the first to try!
In that case I'll just jump on it and have a go, sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't but if it's only a fun comp don't take it too seriously!
> What do people think who enter fun leagues?
I sometime watch somebody else do a problem before I try it, it's nice to get a bit of beta, but often either there is nobody around trying it or nobody wants to be the first to try!
In that case I'll just jump on it and have a go, sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't but if it's only a fun comp don't take it too seriously!
In reply to flopsicle:
I think giving and accepting beta, if its wanted, is a norm at fun comps, and when everyone can see how everyone else climbs stuff it would be daft to be too strict on that. A good number of people who are super serious watch loads of other climbers before trying tricky problems and it's common to see biggish teams giving encouragement and beta on harder problems. Beta doesn't always help anyhow, especially if its from climbers unfamiliar with other's strengths and morphology. What is really annoying is those who plain cheat; sometimes sad when cheaters are kids encouraged by parental pressure. When prizes are good, because cheating is often obvious from the scores, this can lead to bad feeling.
I think giving and accepting beta, if its wanted, is a norm at fun comps, and when everyone can see how everyone else climbs stuff it would be daft to be too strict on that. A good number of people who are super serious watch loads of other climbers before trying tricky problems and it's common to see biggish teams giving encouragement and beta on harder problems. Beta doesn't always help anyhow, especially if its from climbers unfamiliar with other's strengths and morphology. What is really annoying is those who plain cheat; sometimes sad when cheaters are kids encouraged by parental pressure. When prizes are good, because cheating is often obvious from the scores, this can lead to bad feeling.
2
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
I think that depends on who is working & time of day or it does at all the other walls I go to.
Some of the comp day music was ok.
I think that depends on who is working & time of day or it does at all the other walls I go to.
Some of the comp day music was ok.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
In a real judged comp that would be an attempt.
> I'd feel holds that can be felt from the ground
In a real judged comp that would be an attempt.
In reply to Offwidth:
Epic cathartic post warning!
Heeehehehe... It's not like I wasn't up for listening! I already had the highest score I've ever had and 2 more potential flashes (which I did flash), but then to try not 1 but 2 climbs over 20, and to get them, flashing one of them - that's bonkers! I'd rather have got that score just one time than win any of the leagues but at the same time I assumed everyone else would be 20-40 up and while I might narrow a gap I wouldn't close it so it didn't matter. But then I scored more than someone who is a better climber than me. I'd chew off my right arm to repeat that performance but it feels bloody unlikely!
At the risk of exposing my slightly loony side my head said - 'You watched loads of people, you didn't even go get your card unless it felt like a good day, you brushed the holds so knew what they looked like (didn't hold them though!), you took a pure lesson on how to climb 2 of them, you scored more than you should = you cheated'.
It's a fun league with decent prizes but TBH I only wanted the prizes because they would (and have) improve my climbing, getting spanked has also made me try harder so is equally good. Bouldering leagues have given me another dimension. I want to get better at climbing enough to run/circuit train/climb/TRX 10 hours a week - and I knock off time for chatting! I hate running but run 10 miles each week on hills. I hate working my weaknesses but don't let myself play on the vertical till I've swallowed my overhangs pill, endless silent feet, features for feet, feet only - and bloody sally up/down leg raises, all to climb better, to flow, balance, sink low and not slide off a sloper; maybe one day even move my feet on the steep without having to think about it so much.
Bouldering leagues tell me if I'm getting better but also remind me how far there is to go and I'm not 16. Slowing everything down, watching more made me climb better, made me route read (attempt to!) harder and advice made me try what I wouldn't have tried. It's been good for me to hear the consensus isn't that all of that is pushing the envelope beyond 'sporting' even if within the rules.
Epic cathartic post warning!
Heeehehehe... It's not like I wasn't up for listening! I already had the highest score I've ever had and 2 more potential flashes (which I did flash), but then to try not 1 but 2 climbs over 20, and to get them, flashing one of them - that's bonkers! I'd rather have got that score just one time than win any of the leagues but at the same time I assumed everyone else would be 20-40 up and while I might narrow a gap I wouldn't close it so it didn't matter. But then I scored more than someone who is a better climber than me. I'd chew off my right arm to repeat that performance but it feels bloody unlikely!
At the risk of exposing my slightly loony side my head said - 'You watched loads of people, you didn't even go get your card unless it felt like a good day, you brushed the holds so knew what they looked like (didn't hold them though!), you took a pure lesson on how to climb 2 of them, you scored more than you should = you cheated'.
It's a fun league with decent prizes but TBH I only wanted the prizes because they would (and have) improve my climbing, getting spanked has also made me try harder so is equally good. Bouldering leagues have given me another dimension. I want to get better at climbing enough to run/circuit train/climb/TRX 10 hours a week - and I knock off time for chatting! I hate running but run 10 miles each week on hills. I hate working my weaknesses but don't let myself play on the vertical till I've swallowed my overhangs pill, endless silent feet, features for feet, feet only - and bloody sally up/down leg raises, all to climb better, to flow, balance, sink low and not slide off a sloper; maybe one day even move my feet on the steep without having to think about it so much.
Bouldering leagues tell me if I'm getting better but also remind me how far there is to go and I'm not 16. Slowing everything down, watching more made me climb better, made me route read (attempt to!) harder and advice made me try what I wouldn't have tried. It's been good for me to hear the consensus isn't that all of that is pushing the envelope beyond 'sporting' even if within the rules.
Post edited at 20:20
1
In reply to flopsicle:
It's pointless for me to worry about this too much - I'll never win!
If you touch the start holds it's an attempt in my book.
I think other people's beta / attempts is / are fair game.
It's pointless for me to worry about this too much - I'll never win!
If you touch the start holds it's an attempt in my book.
I think other people's beta / attempts is / are fair game.
1
In reply to Richard Wilson:
It was the comp day music I struggled with. Left with a headache and only enjoyed it when he shut up for the guy to talk about the finals.
That said I do like 80's music. This was just plain beat box rubbish
It was the comp day music I struggled with. Left with a headache and only enjoyed it when he shut up for the guy to talk about the finals.
That said I do like 80's music. This was just plain beat box rubbish
In reply to Richard Wilson:
7.8.2 During the observation period, competitors are allowed to touch only the marked starting holds, without
leaving the ground with both their feet. No recording equipment shall be permitted
7.9.1 An attempt shall be deemed to have started when every part of the competitor's body has left the
ground.
https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/images/World_competitions/Event_regulations/1...
> In a real judged comp that would be an attempt.
7.8.2 During the observation period, competitors are allowed to touch only the marked starting holds, without
leaving the ground with both their feet. No recording equipment shall be permitted
7.9.1 An attempt shall be deemed to have started when every part of the competitor's body has left the
ground.
https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/images/World_competitions/Event_regulations/1...
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Not sure what your point is as that agrees with me that only the marked start holds are fair game.
Touching any other hold would be an attempt.
Ah I see I dint mention that marked start holds were ok in the reply to Lord Ash2000.
However if you had read all of this thread you would have seen that I had already covered it in my first post (the third post in this thread) in reply to flopsicle.
> 7.8.2 During the observation period, competitors are allowed to touch only the marked starting holds, without
> leaving the ground with both their feet. No recording equipment shall be permitted
> 7.9.1 An attempt shall be deemed to have started when every part of the competitor's body has left the
> ground.
Not sure what your point is as that agrees with me that only the marked start holds are fair game.
Touching any other hold would be an attempt.
Ah I see I dint mention that marked start holds were ok in the reply to Lord Ash2000.
However if you had read all of this thread you would have seen that I had already covered it in my first post (the third post in this thread) in reply to flopsicle.
In reply to Thelittlesthobo:
Nope the BMC Junior boulder championships comp at the Depot Manchester on the 11th June.
Nope the BMC Junior boulder championships comp at the Depot Manchester on the 11th June.
In reply to Richard Wilson:
Daughter is too young. She is cat E and cant enter. At the moment she is stuck with YCS and local comps. 8yr old taking on U12's isn't too shabby.
Daughter is too young. She is cat E and cant enter. At the moment she is stuck with YCS and local comps. 8yr old taking on U12's isn't too shabby.
Post edited at 22:23
In reply to Richard Wilson:
Would it? It's been a while since I've done any proper comps, memory is a bit vague but I'm sure you were allowed to feel a hold as long as you didn't leave the ground. According to you if you touch the start hold then scratch tour noise that's an attempt?
Maybe things have changed but I don't remember that ever being a rule in British bouldering championships.
Would it? It's been a while since I've done any proper comps, memory is a bit vague but I'm sure you were allowed to feel a hold as long as you didn't leave the ground. According to you if you touch the start hold then scratch tour noise that's an attempt?
Maybe things have changed but I don't remember that ever being a rule in British bouldering championships.
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
Thats not what I said.
You can touch the start holds as long as you do not leave the ground.
You can not touch any other hold that is not marked as a start hold as that would be a go even without leaving the ground.
> Would it? It's been a while since I've done any proper comps, memory is a bit vague but I'm sure you were allowed to feel a hold as long as you didn't leave the ground. According to you if you touch the start hold then scratch tour noise that's an attempt?
> Maybe things have changed but I don't remember that ever being a rule in British bouldering championships.
Thats not what I said.
You can touch the start holds as long as you do not leave the ground.
You can not touch any other hold that is not marked as a start hold as that would be a go even without leaving the ground.
In reply to Richard Wilson:
Well as I say it's been a while so maybe that's the case these days. Obviously if I was in a comp and that rule was in place I would abide by it. Certainly never heard of it in minor comps.
Well as I say it's been a while so maybe that's the case these days. Obviously if I was in a comp and that rule was in place I would abide by it. Certainly never heard of it in minor comps.
Post edited at 10:36
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
Minor comps tend not to have any / many rules as its down to the local wall.
Minor comps tend not to have any / many rules as its down to the local wall.
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