UKC

In this series on UKClimbing, we have teamed up with Plas-y-Brenin, the National Mountain Sports Centre, to cover a wide range of basic climbing techniques.. We will be explaining everything from putting on harnesses and tying figure of eights, to building belays and leading.

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In reply to UKC Articles:

Very nice job indeed. Well filmed, well spoken, great content. Impressive stuff.

In reply to UKC Articles:

A nice belt and braces video, clear and simple . It never fails to amaze me the spaghetti some folks insist on cobbling together when simple safe rigging is an option.

In reply to UKC Articles:
Very impressed. Clear, concise but fluid presentation whilst reasonable explanations and a couple of neat tips keeps the content interesting. Can't go far wrong following the guidance in this video, appreciate the belaying part too which doesn't always get enough attention.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Looks like a bombproof anchor. Why not belay directly onto it?

In reply to nb:

Possibly because setting up a direct belay with the anchors below waist level would be awkward and uncomfortable for the belayer. Personally I only tend to do this if I can get into a position where the anchors are at least above shoulder height.

Aside from that, it's an "essential skills" video, and belaying off the harness would typically be learned first before a direct belay, which is applicable in fewer situations.

In reply to planetmarshall:

You can sit down and still belay direct to the anchor. Personally I would say belaying off the harness is a more difficult skill to master than belaying direct off the anchor, and it's definitely more difficult to hold a fall or assist the second. Direct belaying is applicable anywhere where the anchor is sound, which in my experience is most places, even in the UK, and especially when you're sitting on the edge of a vertical cliff!

In reply to nb:

Four dislikes for a post giving informed advice on belaying!! With all the shit happening around the world on a daily basis you’d think people wouldn’t have any energy left to dislike such a benign thing. Maybe some people mistake the dislike button for a disagree button. Now I have no problem with people disagreeing but the button says dislike… so that’s what I’m going with.

Why does belaying directly onto a bombproof belay stir up such negative emotions within the UK climbing community? I have a story which I think illustrates the reason.

A few years back I was rock climbing on the Aberdeenshire coast with one of Scotland’s more renowned activists. He climbed to the top of a route, taking several falls onto a couple of tiny brass nuts which were the only protection stopping him hitting the deck. Seconding, I decided to sit on the rope to remove the nuts, partly because they were welded into the crack, and partly because my arms were giving out.

“Take me”, I shouted upwards. The rope came tight and I sat down and set to work. The 2 nuts were truly jammed into the crack and proved very difficult to extract without damaging them. After about 5 mins a voice came down from above, “Get a f*ckin move on man this is killing me”. I persevered knowing that losing gear for this particular Scotsman would be a lot more traumatic than having to endure a pair of squeezed bollocks for a couple more minutes, but then the same cry wrenched the air. The pain was obviously becoming unbearable so I ripped the last remaining nut out of the crack and continued climbing. “About f*cking time”, was all the thanks I got.

Reaching the top of the crag I found my mate strapped into 3 bombproof Friends and belaying off his harness. When I asked him why he hadn’t belayed directly to the anchor he replied, “I didnae wanna load the belay”. When I suggested that having taken multiple falls onto a tiny nut he maybe shouldn’t have been too concerned about loading 3 bomber cams with bodyweight he said, “For the belay I always try tae take some o’ the strain on ma legs”. When I pointed out that his legs were dangling over the edge of the cliff he looked at me angrily and replied, “This is the way we dae it here!”

And that’s when I realised that belaying on the harness was just as British as milky tea, the Royal family, UKC and Plas-y-Brenin. And you just don’t question these things.

In reply to nb:


You're right, Neil. I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it...

In reply to nb:

Hi Neil, I hope you are well.

Great to have your input on this video we made. To be honest just getting through it without looking a total plonker was pretty much my number 1 aim... I might post some outtakes next week!!

But in response to 'why not belay directly from the anchors', well you have a really good point, and very, very often when I am out climbing that is exactly what I will do. I have to admit reading your post above that you are right to a degree, there is certainly an element of 'that's the way we've always done it' about my/our choice to build the belay in this way for this beginners' video, and now your post has had me sit down and have an extra think about it, so thanks!

I'd say this though - if I was to do it again, I'd do it the same way. I'd do that because this is a video series, and building the belay in this way works really well following on from the skills that we've shown earlier in the series, namely clove hitches, and using the rope to equalise anchors that are quite far apart.

Also, the technique of belaying (and the use of the device) stays the same throughout the video series, which is good IMO. I am also thinking that you'd maybe switch to autolock mode on your device for a direct belay? (I usually would!), so that's an extra element that we didn't want to have to cover for real basics.

And not switching to that mode, rigging the ropes to create an independent belay loop in a good position to belay effectively from, seems a bit unwieldy to me, and you could end up cutting off your legs anyway!

How would you do it in that situation?

Oh, and (as a seasoned pro at welding in my gear) I move my legs out of the way in the video, so you'd have been fine getting the nuts out...

All the best,

Jack

In reply to Jack Geldard - UKC Chief Editor:
Hi Jack

Thanks for the measured reply!

I get what you're saying about trying to keep things simple, but I think the British way of systematically belaying a second off the harness no matter the circumstances is taking things a bit far.

As far as I can see the only reason for belaying a second from your harness is when the anchor is poor and you want to take some of the strain on your legs. This is absolutely not a beginner situation and it requires considerable experience and skill to do safely. It only works on low-angled terrain (eg snow gully) or where there's a lot of additional friction in the system, such as when you top out on a flat area, walk a certain distance back from the edge and have the rope running over the top of the cliff.

So at the top of the Lleyn Penisnsula with a fence-post for an anchor and a couple of rabbit holes for my feet I'll belay to my harness (but in the knowledge that I'll not be able to communicate with or assist my partner). If I get to the top of Tremadog, I'll attach myself and the belay plate to a large tree, position myself on the edge of the cliff so I can see my partner and belay them direct - easier, safer and more comfortable.

In between these extremes I'll have to assess the solidity of the anchor. This is a skill that beginners have to learn very quickly in the UK. How many people would be happy to lower off a piece of gear, but would not dream of belaying directly onto it? However lowering off a piece of gear generates twice as much force as holding a second or abseiling. Why are belays considered ok for leader falls but not for a second!

If this lack of understanding only concerned beginners it would be understandable, but it permeates all levels of ability. I watched a video once where 2 of the UK's most illustrious climbers were attempting a massive roof on some island off Scotland. The leader made a hanging belay right on the edge of the roof, clipped the belay plate to his harness and then proceeded to writhe and squirm as his second fell multiple times into thin air. Ironically the belayer had a camera crew hanging right next to him!!!

Maybe it's time for this cultural idiosyncrasy to be adressed and UKC and Plas-y-Brenin are certainly the best placed to do it.

In reply to nb:

I reckon it's in our (UK) genes.
Climbing started in Britain and everyone used to belay around their waists.
Then when belay devices came into existence, it was probably just a natural/subconscious thing to attach it to the harness and belay in a similar fashion.

In reply to nb:


I can't speak for others, but personally this has nothing to do with cultural idiosyncrasies. It's about what's appropriate for the given scenario.

I almost always use a direct belay where I can position myself sufficiently far below the anchors to be comfortable - usually on multipitch rock, mixed and ice climbs. However, at the top of Stanage, for example, where anchors are typically ground level gritstone blocks, I just don't see how you can perform a direct belay off the anchors comfortably - as ever, I am open to being educated on this. I use a Black Diamond ATC Guide - perhaps other devices allow this to be done more easily?

In reply to planetmarshall:
Honestly Planet Marshall it ain't that difficult. Try it next time you're out. Sit down next to the belay device and take in the rope (in autolock mode obviously). If you're far enough back from the edge you don't even need to be tied in.

Edited to add: Just make sure that ground level boulder isn't going anywhere!!

In reply to nb:

I will.


I probably won't be doing that, however, as I prefer to be able to see my second if possible.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Liked the video, good belaying but bit concerned about the fact shoes are half on half off (possible trip factor)

In reply to thespecialone:


You're telling me. I've lost sleep over it.

In reply to jon:
It's ok Jon, you can rest easy, I made it out alive, just! Steel toe caps and vis-vest for the next vids though!



J

In reply to UKC Articles:

Good video

The only time I have seen a direct belay to anchor used was in America. I was seconding and the leader placed a belay plate above and behind him so that it would be impossible to lock the device. I politely suggested that he use a muntor hitch instead.

Some good points are made above. But from the point of view of instruction for beginners the advantage of belaying from your harness is that the belay plate will all ways be infront of you, in a familiar posistion

In reply to nb:


Doesn't that mean the rope runs over the edge when you take in?

In reply to UKC Articles:

A useful and well put-together video. Thanks to those involved!

I was taught (at PyB) to belay the second from the harness belay loop rather than (as in the video) the rope loop. As I'm a relative novice, can anyone comment on the relative merits of each approach? Is it purely personal preference, or dictated by the situation? Is even asking this going to start some kind of religious war?

Cheers, Andy.

In reply to andyjohnson0:

Yes it will.

But http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1129

The short answer is, it's a lot more comfortable when you've got a second hanging!