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I was browsing the videos on BMC TV and spotted something I would consider to be extremely dangerous during the section on building a belay. The climb was Dawn (HVS 5b) at Wilton 1. Knowledge of the crag might help but even without it its still pretty obvious. http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/videos/how-to-lead-a-trad-route/ Skip to 8:20.
What do you think?
Post edited at 00:14
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In reply to radddogg:
I take it you meant this video? http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/videos/how-to-lead-a-trad-route/
I've not been to Wilton for decades, but blocks like that sometimes have a bit of a wobble to them. Is that the case here? And both his pieces went into the same crack at the one side of the block. If so I would have wanted gear on either side of that block if that was all that was available.
edit:my reply and your edit of the original(including the link) crossed
I take it you meant this video? http://tv.thebmc.co.uk/videos/how-to-lead-a-trad-route/
I've not been to Wilton for decades, but blocks like that sometimes have a bit of a wobble to them. Is that the case here? And both his pieces went into the same crack at the one side of the block. If so I would have wanted gear on either side of that block if that was all that was available.
edit:my reply and your edit of the original(including the link) crossed
Post edited at 00:22
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In reply to radddogg:
Cam and nut in the same crack at the top of a somewhat precarious looking quarried fun probably not the best idea but depends how solid that stuff is - not familiar with the crag.
Cam and nut in the same crack at the top of a somewhat precarious looking quarried fun probably not the best idea but depends how solid that stuff is - not familiar with the crag.
In reply to radddogg:
Wearing an orange helmet with a yellow t-shirt may be a 'brave' fashion choice but I wouldn't call it "extremely dangerous".
Wearing an orange helmet with a yellow t-shirt may be a 'brave' fashion choice but I wouldn't call it "extremely dangerous".
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Clipping directly to the anchors using only a sling, could have used the rope to build anchor, a wee bit more dynamic.
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In reply to radddogg:
Nope.
Does this picture help at all?
http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/37/07/2370776_fbe8d38f.jpg
Nope.
Does this picture help at all?
http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/37/07/2370776_fbe8d38f.jpg
In reply to radddogg:
Once the second tops out neither of them is protected from falling off the other side?
Once the second tops out neither of them is protected from falling off the other side?
Post edited at 01:39
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In reply to James_Kendal:
Bingo! And the drop is almost twice as high the other side. I've belayed from there and it's enough to give you vertigo.
> Once the second tops out neither of them is protected from falling off the other side?
Bingo! And the drop is almost twice as high the other side. I've belayed from there and it's enough to give you vertigo.
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In reply to James_Kendal:
I don't but in the past I've laced it from both directions. There is also a permanent anchor a metre or two along.
I don't but in the past I've laced it from both directions. There is also a permanent anchor a metre or two along.
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In reply to radddogg:
Looks precarious up there. Also, after admitting to being a long way above his last piece of gear (whilst climbing) it's only very late in the belay building process that he actually clips himself in to it, which could be improved upon in a beginners vid.
Looks precarious up there. Also, after admitting to being a long way above his last piece of gear (whilst climbing) it's only very late in the belay building process that he actually clips himself in to it, which could be improved upon in a beginners vid.
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In reply to JR:
That's what I thought. You just walk along it and scramble down.
Vertigo on the Wilton Prow - mmmmm.
Wally
> How do you normally get off the prow, if that's what you're worried about?
That's what I thought. You just walk along it and scramble down.
Vertigo on the Wilton Prow - mmmmm.
Wally
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In reply to radddogg:
Using the old rusty spike fixed anchor would make the belay worse as it would be 2m away and 90 degrees off. There are far better non-fixed anchors, like the ones used. The block is solid that the gear is in.
Perhaps, it's not the best place to choose to do a video (because people will have knowledge of the context of the prow) but in the circumstances climbing that route I'd do no different, and I don't think anyone I've climbed that route with ever has. You're picking holes in techniques that could always be tweaked.
Using the old rusty spike fixed anchor would make the belay worse as it would be 2m away and 90 degrees off. There are far better non-fixed anchors, like the ones used. The block is solid that the gear is in.
Perhaps, it's not the best place to choose to do a video (because people will have knowledge of the context of the prow) but in the circumstances climbing that route I'd do no different, and I don't think anyone I've climbed that route with ever has. You're picking holes in techniques that could always be tweaked.
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In reply to JR:
On all fours shaking like a shitting dog
> How do you normally get off the prow, if that's what you're worried about?
On all fours shaking like a shitting dog
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In reply to Bogwalloper:
UKC user in failure to take sarcasm with a pinch of salt shocker!
> Vertigo on the Wilton Prow - mmmmm.
UKC user in failure to take sarcasm with a pinch of salt shocker!
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In reply to JR:
I don't consider it nit-picking to highlight flaws in practices that would lead to death of both climbers if the second tripped as he topped out.
I don't consider it nit-picking to highlight flaws in practices that would lead to death of both climbers if the second tripped as he topped out.
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In reply to radddogg:
I believe climbing and more in particular trad climbing is a sport where you can't be in control of every possible "risk". Yeah... if the second were to fall on the other side, they would both die... but is the same as if riding your bicycle you would slip next to a double deck bus and fall below the wheels... Would that stop you to ride a your bike next to buses? You would not be able to ride at all , at least in London!
In my experience situations like the one you describe are there all the time... such as walking on narrow and exposed riffs, down climbing steep walls to get to a crag, easy climbs on loose rocks, just to mention a few. I believe they are all part of the adventure. There is risk on every action, is up to each individual to assess how far you want to go.
Now on this particular climb if you fall on the other side... you probably should have never been climbing, or doing trad for instance. Honestly is very unlikely almost impossible. If you have vertigo you can just walk on your arms to the way out.
However, I give you that for an instructional video I would have chose a better spot. The placements can look confusing for a beginner to get it right and understand the basic aspects of lead trad climbing.
I believe climbing and more in particular trad climbing is a sport where you can't be in control of every possible "risk". Yeah... if the second were to fall on the other side, they would both die... but is the same as if riding your bicycle you would slip next to a double deck bus and fall below the wheels... Would that stop you to ride a your bike next to buses? You would not be able to ride at all , at least in London!
In my experience situations like the one you describe are there all the time... such as walking on narrow and exposed riffs, down climbing steep walls to get to a crag, easy climbs on loose rocks, just to mention a few. I believe they are all part of the adventure. There is risk on every action, is up to each individual to assess how far you want to go.
Now on this particular climb if you fall on the other side... you probably should have never been climbing, or doing trad for instance. Honestly is very unlikely almost impossible. If you have vertigo you can just walk on your arms to the way out.
However, I give you that for an instructional video I would have chose a better spot. The placements can look confusing for a beginner to get it right and understand the basic aspects of lead trad climbing.
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In reply to radddogg: The best way to belay here is to down climb Cameo whilst still on belay. Then, once down belay your second like you would belaying on a normal bottom rope indoors. Then, only one person is subject to the large unprotected drop.
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In reply to radddogg:
A propos of nothing in particular, sometimes you just *know*, without even clicking on their profile, that someone is a completely useless climber, don't you?
jcm
A propos of nothing in particular, sometimes you just *know*, without even clicking on their profile, that someone is a completely useless climber, don't you?
jcm
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In reply to radddogg:
I must say I agree with you. I would never make do with just that - i.e. all your eggs in one basket, or rather two cams in one crack formed by the same boulder – unless there was nothing else available (and sometimes serious situations like that arise in real climbing). If that boulder moved - and they do (remember Paul Piana belaying at the top of El Cap?) - then both anchors could fail/ v probably would fail. To me it was always a reflex to place another completely separate nut in something totally different for the worst possible scenario. I once had a very sound-looking boulder belay fail in Jersey, and my brother was rightly very angry, but I had a backup perfect MOAC in a completely separate crack that did its job and saved us. In a word or two: never use one belay, if you can find others, unless it is completely bombproof, like an extremely strong and healthy tree trunk. And generally speaking, never make do with just two. On most belays it's so easy to add an extra nut. On the classic old stance 3/4 of the way up Cemetery Gates, where the full weight will come on you if the second falls off – a virtual hanging belay – I had seven nuts because not one of them was in my judgement bombproof. Even then I was very glad to have a very strong second (a much better climber than myself, as it so happens) because it would be no fun at all belaying there with a second who's having a hard time. I repeat: it's often so fast and so easy to add another anchor. Sometimes not. Worst ever was a poor nut in a single gravelly slot with no ledge for my feet on a climb in Bregaglia, AND my second was having a very tough time. Terrifying. ((Actually, there was one even worse belay, appallingly bad, in Scandanavia, but I've talked enough about that.))
I must say I agree with you. I would never make do with just that - i.e. all your eggs in one basket, or rather two cams in one crack formed by the same boulder – unless there was nothing else available (and sometimes serious situations like that arise in real climbing). If that boulder moved - and they do (remember Paul Piana belaying at the top of El Cap?) - then both anchors could fail/ v probably would fail. To me it was always a reflex to place another completely separate nut in something totally different for the worst possible scenario. I once had a very sound-looking boulder belay fail in Jersey, and my brother was rightly very angry, but I had a backup perfect MOAC in a completely separate crack that did its job and saved us. In a word or two: never use one belay, if you can find others, unless it is completely bombproof, like an extremely strong and healthy tree trunk. And generally speaking, never make do with just two. On most belays it's so easy to add an extra nut. On the classic old stance 3/4 of the way up Cemetery Gates, where the full weight will come on you if the second falls off – a virtual hanging belay – I had seven nuts because not one of them was in my judgement bombproof. Even then I was very glad to have a very strong second (a much better climber than myself, as it so happens) because it would be no fun at all belaying there with a second who's having a hard time. I repeat: it's often so fast and so easy to add another anchor. Sometimes not. Worst ever was a poor nut in a single gravelly slot with no ledge for my feet on a climb in Bregaglia, AND my second was having a very tough time. Terrifying. ((Actually, there was one even worse belay, appallingly bad, in Scandanavia, but I've talked enough about that.))
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Wally
> A propos of nothing in particular, sometimes you just *know*, without even clicking on their profile, that someone is a completely useless climber, don't you?
> jcm
Wally
In reply to radddogg: The prow is pinned with iron bars at a few places. If the block was going to be moved by the cam the climb along with the block he's sat on would probably become a pile of rubble.
There would be a chance you could fall off the other side but if I was worried about that I would be choosing a different climbing partner.
However it did look dry and sunny I suspect green screening.
There would be a chance you could fall off the other side but if I was worried about that I would be choosing a different climbing partner.
However it did look dry and sunny I suspect green screening.
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In reply to juanbrein:
Exactly. There always a risk, all you can do is mitigate it. Completely failing to make contingency for a known risk isn't mitigating your risks. Climbing and riding a bike are like apples and oranges.
> I believe climbing and more in particular trad climbing is a sport where you can't be in control of every possible "risk". Yeah... if the second were to fall on the other side, they would both die... but is the same as if riding your bicycle you would slip next to a double deck bus and fall below the wheels... Would that stop you to ride a your bike next to buses? You would not be able to ride at all , at least in London!
Exactly. There always a risk, all you can do is mitigate it. Completely failing to make contingency for a known risk isn't mitigating your risks. Climbing and riding a bike are like apples and oranges.
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Classy.
> A propos of nothing in particular, sometimes you just *know*, without even clicking on their profile, that someone is a completely useless climber, don't you?
> jcm
Classy.
In reply to radddogg:
But that is effectively the issue isn't it? You just can't mitigate all the risks... I think this is the point where personal assessment gets into the game. For you the instructional video lacks a fundamental mechanism to mitigate that risk. In my case I would never bother about it.
But again... I think you are probably right in the only sense that this is an instructional video... we should not be having this conversation if the route to demonstrate best practices would have been better selected.
Now my next question is... should this discussion be around route selection for instructional videos or personal risk thresholds??
> Completely failing to make contingency for a known risk isn't mitigating your risks
But that is effectively the issue isn't it? You just can't mitigate all the risks... I think this is the point where personal assessment gets into the game. For you the instructional video lacks a fundamental mechanism to mitigate that risk. In my case I would never bother about it.
But again... I think you are probably right in the only sense that this is an instructional video... we should not be having this conversation if the route to demonstrate best practices would have been better selected.
Now my next question is... should this discussion be around route selection for instructional videos or personal risk thresholds??
In reply to juanbrein:
In the context of a training video, the omission isn't the fact that there is no multiple anchors, its the fact that there is no mention of the fact that the risks were assesed and the anchors chosen were appropriate for the situation.
In the context of a training video, the omission isn't the fact that there is no multiple anchors, its the fact that there is no mention of the fact that the risks were assesed and the anchors chosen were appropriate for the situation.
In reply to radddogg:
So, if I've got you right, you have no problem with the anchors for a leader protecting second coming up the route. You have an issue with the safety of both AFTER the second has topped out because he/they might fall. But isn't that actually the same as at an infinite number of crags where when you have 'finished' the route you are then at risk? I remember watching a lad leading a route in Cornwall. They finished, coiled ropes, and on the path across the top of the crag he slipped and did a 60' down a granite crag. Are you suggesting that they should have rigged a hand-line?
Don't ever go to Sharpnose
> Bingo! And the drop is almost twice as high the other side. I've belayed from there and it's enough to give you vertigo.
So, if I've got you right, you have no problem with the anchors for a leader protecting second coming up the route. You have an issue with the safety of both AFTER the second has topped out because he/they might fall. But isn't that actually the same as at an infinite number of crags where when you have 'finished' the route you are then at risk? I remember watching a lad leading a route in Cornwall. They finished, coiled ropes, and on the path across the top of the crag he slipped and did a 60' down a granite crag. Are you suggesting that they should have rigged a hand-line?
Don't ever go to Sharpnose
In reply to juanbrein:
Good point. Do you select 'perfect' venues for instructional videos to demonstrate the 'best' way to do things or do you select venues that equate to the sort of 'messy' situations we all actually face when climbing.
> Now my next question is... should this discussion be around route selection for instructional videos or personal risk thresholds??
Good point. Do you select 'perfect' venues for instructional videos to demonstrate the 'best' way to do things or do you select venues that equate to the sort of 'messy' situations we all actually face when climbing.
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