UKC

Hi.

What knot is it best to use to tie the middle person in to the rope when climbing as a 3 on one rope?

I've got a Mountain Skills training handbook but, surprisingly, it doesn't have the answer! I was wondering if the alpine butterfly might be ok?

Obviously, the 2 climbers on each end would be tied in with a figure of eight rewoven [plus stopper knot].

Thanks in advance for any pearls of wisdom!

In reply to Cornish boy:

I always use a figure of 8 on the bight.

In reply to Cornish boy:

Alpine butterfly is one of the only knots which is equally strong in three directions. Takes a little practice, but not hard.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

Hi Gerry,

Thanks for your prompt reply.

Do you just clip the loop created to the abseil loop on the climber's harness using a screwgate krab?

Cheers.

In reply to Pbob:

Hi Pbob,

Thanks for your reply.

It's really good to hear people's opinions based on their experience and also the pros and cons of the different methods of tying in. I better start practising then!

Cheers.

In reply to Cornish boy:

A re threaded overhand is less bulky that a fig. 8. It's also worth adding an isolation knot above.

If using an alpine butterfly consider clipping in with two krabs for a bit more security

I'm sure the moutain training rock climbing book shows tying in middle person in scrambling section. Or Bruce Goodlads alpine mountaineering booking has some good pictures of the technique.

In reply to Cornish boy:
I was in the middle on my last winter route and both the others were alot more experienced than me, I went to use the alpine butterfly and was stopped.
They agreed to tie my on using an isolation knot about 1 meter long and then I tied on with a rethreaded overhand knot through and clipped onto my belay loop!
It was a big knot!
Would be interested in hearing if this is a normal way as well as the butterfly knot?

In reply to Ryan P:

Alpine Butterfly is commonly used. Either your friends were plain wrong or not explaining something properly.

In reply to Ryan P:

I think this approach is commonly (?) taught to MIAs and the like as it provides some isolation (obviously) between the middle climber and the rope to the bottom climber so they can both be on a tightish belay without having tight rope between them impeding the movement of the upper climber and destabilising the bottom one.

I think the alpine butterfly is by far the neatest way of making a loop midway along a rope but it doesn't lend itself so easily to this isolation loop system (although I guess it could still be used if the butterfly had a very long loop with an overhand at the far end...)

In reply to Cornish boy:

I don't use an Alpine Butterfly. Don't know how to tie one actually. With modern ropes, I believe it's not necessary to use something as complicated. I just use a couple of overhands to make an extension.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Glad to hear that! How do you connect it to the climber?

In reply to nickcj:

Hi Nick,

Thanks for your considered reply.

I've had another look in the book and found the section on tying in the middle person. It was in the 'short roping' section! The method they recommend is exactly what you stated, including the initial tying of an overhand isolation knot [or an alpine butterfly] followed by a re-threaded overhand knot through the belay loop. The authors also recommend to clip the loop end of the overhand knot into the newly formed tie in loop on the harness.

I will practise this method now!

Many thanks,

Paul

In reply to Oujmik:
Sorry I only seen the last comment until I scrolled up.
I know one of the people I climbed with has spent alot of time with MIA certified guides and the other has climbed for 30 years all over the Alps etc.
It just wasn't something I had read in my many books, will definitely be using the system again. I had plenty free rope to move around and I didn't get dragged around once.

In reply to Cornish boy:

I clip it into the main load bearing loop of the person's harness with a screwgate.

In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

Thanks Gerry.

Interestingly, the authors of the training Handbook only recommend your method [tying on the middle climber with a screwgate clipped into their abseil loop] on very short sections of scrambling or winter terrain.

For anything longer or more serious they recommend the re-woven technique described by Nick above.

Hope that helps.

Paul

In reply to Cornish boy:

Hi Paul,
Yes, those are exactly the situations I use that method in. Scrambles and easy winter routes and usually moving together. I wouldn't have three people on one rope in any other circumstances.
Gerry

In reply to Andy Nisbet:



It only seems complicated if you're not familiar with it

I use the AB a lot; it's useful for various other applications (e.g. rigging with multiple anchors and separate rope), it's quick to tie, and it's quick and easy to adjust the length of the loop.

Also, for tying into the middle of the rope, it simply looks right for the job. This may be (at least partly) an aesthetic consideration, given that overhands and fig 8s are proven to be secure, but I don't like the way they seem to be pulled apart when the ends are under tension (despite getting used to that "look" when joining ropes with overhand for abseil).

In reply to all:

Re connecting to the loop: there is that method where you make a longish isolated loop, push it through the belay loop; then step through it to create a lark's foot. It can be used in conjunction with an overhand which is initially tied at the base of the loop; then moved up to the harness. It is conveniently compact.

In reply to bpmclimb:

The Chris Tan death knot!

http://www.kakibusok.plus.com/Equipment/

In reply to bpmclimb:

It's simple enough to tie a bowline variation using the same trick (double stranded 'hole', single loop formed by the bight). Takes a second to adjust but by far the best answer to this issue I've seen. I always use it in this situation.

Does amaze me so few climbers know the alpine butterfly though, brilliant for equalising belays.

In reply to Adam Long:

All the 'step through the loop' options while quick and neat are a total pain to escape from whether in an emergency or simply in a constricted or precarious position.

In reply to Pbob:

There is an excellent video on youtube showing a very simple way to tie the AB using three coils on your hand.

In reply to Ryan P:


Clipped into the belay loop with a krab, nothing fancy.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Thankyou

In reply to jkarran:

Well given the alternatives listed so far in this thread, I don't agree. I've used it enough times on restricted stances - no big deal. I suppose you could argue if you had to untie an unconscious partner it might be a pain, but that is both vanishingly unlikely and only slightly worse than any other method of tying in. If it was a real issue we'd all clip in all the time.

On the plus side, it's by far the most elegant solution, being no bigger, likely stronger and even easier to undo than a normal bowline, whilst removing the bowline's only issue - the risk of it coming undone.

In reply to Cornish boy:

My preferred method is to tie an overhand (knot one) isolation knot then tie another overhand on the bight (knot 2) with about 6" of bight left, thread the bight through the harness and push it through the middle of the over hand and tie it behind knot two with another over hand, like a stopper knot and clip the tail to the harness with a locking krab.

In reply to Cornish boy:

Anyone who finds the alpine butterfly complicated needs to reconsider their hobby.

In reply to Andy Nisbet:


You never read the make a dick,give it a twist post then ?

In reply to JuneBob:


When compared to the overhand, the alpine butterfly is very complicated.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


I agree it's more complicated than an overhand, but definitely not very much more. Ropework is essential for climbing safely. I wouldn't climb with anyone who struggles to learn an alpine butterfly.

In reply to JuneBob:


I wouldn't climb with anyone who is pedantic about knots.

In reply to Cornish boy:

When I was on the Convulse course a few years ago, I was tying an alpine butterfly to connect in to the middle of the rope, when the guide stopped me and got me to "push a bite through the belay loop and step into it" causing a larks foot on the belay loop.

I have to admit I was very skeptical but he was adamant that it was ok to use even on steep routes. Apparently its unlikely to slip under the load of a fall, is easy to tie and you dont have the possibility of a cross loaded Krab.

It is the only time I have ever seen this done, and I am still skeptical. If it was shown to be by someone who wasn't a guide I may well have carried on with my alpine butterfly!

Chris

In reply to JuneBob:

i never use the alpine butterfly. its use in climbing is negligable.

In reply to chrisbaggy:

That's the same as the 'Chris Tan Death Knot' that Offwidth mentioned in his post at 15:05 Sat. If you like that, you'll love the bowline on the bight variation that Adam Long described right afterwards.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


Don't tell that to anyone who climbs big walls. It then gets more use than a fig 8.

In reply to Cornish boy:

Various options are covered in the "climbing in a three or more" section of this website:
www.multipitchclimbing.com

and in the book that is linked to it.

If I'm not going to have to untie from the rope often during the day, I use a bowline on a bight. Nice small knot, no need for a screw gate, can't possibly fail, you can second or lead on it. Easy to untie even if you fall on it. And it is a very pretty knot! But is is a bit of a pain to extract yourself from it when wearing crampons.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Every knot has several ways to tie it, you just have to find the method that works best for you.
I can easily tie an AB with the 'twist, twist, under and through' method, but the 'round the hand' method I just find confusing. Ditto the 'bunny round the tree' way to tie a bowline, half the time I get it wrong.

Seek out the various ways to tie an AB and you will find one that you will remember easily.

In reply to Dell:




I know how to tie it, I just choose not to use it as it's pointless for most applications I require a knot for.

In reply to Pbob:

Main practical use for AB is for caving and roped acces work (the same really)

In reply to rocksol:


And for tying the bag to the haul line, setting a belay if the second is jugging, setting up a fixed line for abseiling and building a two-bolt belay using a thin dynema sling.

In reply to rocksol:


Great when you've set up an abseil line above a route too - just tie one above the top of the route before descending, then when you top out just clip it and you're ready to belay your second in seconds.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:



Well, perhaps - in the same sense that 15+15 is a very complicated addition compared to 2+2

I happen to have a length of cord here by my desk. I just tied an Alpine Butterfly several times, with my eyes shut - it took no more than 3 seconds each time.

Perhaps you have a very complicated way of tying it?

In reply to bpmclimb:

Good for you. here, have a medal.

My point is, in the context of tying onto the middle of a rope, the AB is more complex than is required. It's significantly harder to adjust for one.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


Thanks, but I don't deserve one - because it's easy

In reply to Cornish boy:
So to sum up....there are two schools of climbers. Those that can tie an alpine butterfly and like it, and those that can't and don't like it.

In reply to NeilBoyd:


Matey above says he can tie it but doesn't like it, so I make that 3 types of climber.

In reply to Dell:


Exactly, I can tie one but I´ve never used it in nearly 50 years of climbing.

In reply to Cornish boy:

I use a simple figure of eight on a bight, clipped into the belay loop with a screwgate.

Or if there are 2 ropes we each take a single and tie on the end normally. If the position of gear is a problem then the second climber can re-clip for the third

I appreciate the importance of safety but I think these things get a bit over-analysed sometimes

In reply to Andy Nisbet:
I'm not pedantic about knots. I don't even care whether or not you can tie an alpine butterfly. But it's a very simple knot and some people here are implying they would struggle to master it. If they struggle to master such a simple knot I would be concerned at their abilities to master all the other essential ropework involved in climbing.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


Not in the realm of big-wall climbing, as David Coley has already pointed out. When anchors are subjected to continual loading, perhaps by several people and baggage, overhand and figure-eight knots can tighten until they are welded, and lots of time can be wasted trying to pry those knots open. The butterfly knot is easier to loosen after it has been weighted and so makes for more efficiency on the wall. This may not matter much if your climb is two or three pitches and you and/or bags aren't hanging on the anchors anyway, but in the 20+ pitch realm with lots of hanging stances it starts to make a difference. Clove hitches are good in many circumstances too, but a loop knot sometimes makes it easier to distribute the anchor load by using a long loop.

http://www.supertopo.com/photos/10/24/223901_19613_L.jpg

It is also way easier to untie a butterfly loop from a thin webbing sling than on overhand or figure-eight, in case the rigging system requires such a knot.

As for difficulty, the butterfly is less complex than the rewoven figure-8.

In reply to rgold:

A very valid use of the AB but given that not as many people big wall climb as they do single pitch or short multipich, myself included, it's use is limited in use in those contexts.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


Hmm, doesn't sound like you've used them at all. Of all the knots I use in climbing and rope access, the alpine butterfly is the easiest to adjust. You can change the loop length or the length of either strand independently and easily. It's also easier than the figure-of knots to anticipate its position correctly before tying.

I remember being on Lundy a few years ago with a Plas-y-brenin instructor who was faffing around equalising an ab rope belay with slings. Took a second with an alpine, and used no gear.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Agreed---I almost never use the AB on smaller climbs (but certainly know how to).

If you have a core shot in your rope that you have to tie off, the AB is definitely the best knot for that.

In many circumstances, I think the bowline on a bight is better anyway. Really fast and simple to tie and easier to untie after loading than the AB. For tying in the middle of a rope, it is probably the best option. You don't have to interpose carabiners, and you can tie in to the harness through the tie-in points rather than larks-footing the belay loop. (You could larks-foot the tie-in points, but this squeezes the harness together and can be uncomfortable.)

Drawbacks: the method is analogous to the larks-foot tie-in in that you have to step through a big loop, so is similarly annoying to escape from. You get two lines through the tie-in points, which is hardly a problem, especially for folks used to climbing with half ropes anyway!

In reply to Adam Long:


I didn't realise I published my entire knot tying CV on here.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Hi,
Although not popular, google "direct isolation loop belay". A reasonable number of people use this approach, even at Stanage. Works well with stakes on sea cliffs that are too far apart for a cordelette as well. At its heart is a butterfly.

In reply to David Coley:

I've used the "DIL" belay for many years (decades) with an alpine butterfly knot---I forgot about that in my post above.

In reply to Cornish boy:

Judging by all the different opinions and all the confusion about which is best, I'm going to suggest the Gordian Knot as the compromise solution...

In reply to Cornish boy:

I have found that a long loop 600 to 1 m is good to get a little freedom of movement if 2 climbers are actually climbing at once

We do it half way if hard or loose, or To simulclimb on solid ground have two climbers at End a few meters apart for speed.

I sometimes use an overhand too, It's really easy to put in.

In reply to Cornish boy:
22 hours to decide which knot to use?

In reply to Stu Tyrrell:

Thanks everyone for all your advice. I suppose it proves the old saying 'there is more than one way to skin a cat'!

We ended up tying an overhand isolation knot followed by a re-threaded overhand knot [with the tail clipped back in to the tie-in loop]. This worked well for our winter traverse of the Aonach Eagach ridge which involved a mixture of moving together and pitching tougher sections. It also had the advantage of not being bulky.

Cheers,

Paul

In reply to Wsdconst:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=614432&v=1#x8034255

In reply to David Alcock:

I'm not embarrassed to say that's how I remember it, although I only say it in my head because I think there'd be some funny looks if I said it out loud

In reply to smuffy:

Ha ha!

Yeah, 8 hours to complete the route and 14 hours to read this massive thread and still be confused as to which knot is best to use!

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Not only is it one of the easiest knots to adjust, it is also one of the only knots I can think of that is completely omnidirectional. If you need to put a knot in a rope where you might be loading it across the main line or on the loop, a Fig 8 won't do. I don't know how well a Bowline on a Bight does when cross-loaded; normal Bowlines are certainly terrible (without a stopper, anyway). You can also use an AB to join two independent abseil strands (if you have two ropes, each tied a different belay stake, for example) and provide a handy clip-in point at the same time. With a few ABs you can rig a multi-belay-stake abseil on a single or doubled rope without using any carabiners or slings.

It's also really, really easy to tie. I like the twist, twist method for making long loops but wrapping a rope around your hand, pulling one strand over and then the other is fantastically simple. Certainly no more complicated than a bowline on a bight.

The AB is more of a powerful tool to solve problems rather than a knot you 'need'. You can do everything without it but it's so much better with it, join us... :P (all hail the AB!)

Incidentally cavers are currently having a bit of a mild crisis over the Bowline on a Bight. They often need a two-loop knot to connect mid-rope to a pair of bolts (personally I use two Alpine Butterflies :P ) and have traditionally used a Bowline on the Bight (being supplanted more recently by Fig 8 bunny ears). Cavers will then clip into the loops with their cowstails - best practice being to clip into both but clipping into just one quite common.

Testing has shown that if you pull hard on only one of the loops on a loosely-tied Bowline on a Bight in the right way the loop fails...
http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14580.0

No issue if you load both loops.

(as for the original question - AB and screwgate(s) or better triple-action twistlock/Belay master if you can't be bothered to rethread, Bowline on a Bight Chris-Tan-Death-Knot style if you can)