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Im a novice wood chopper having installed a nice woodburner about 18 months ago. I dont pay for wood as I seem to have a knack for picking it up for free by having a tree surgeon across the road who gives me excess logs (in exchange for a drink). I am also on constant lookout for building developments and wood thinning where I always ask permission and seem to get loads of free logs which I bring home, chop, stack and store for the winter. I never do this without permission and its amazing what you can get by being polite and asking nicely.
Ive turned into a wood nerd and must have collected a good few tonnes over the last 6 months including ash, oak, birch, beech and sycamore.
There is a small wood near where I live which had some road fronted trees overhanging a path which were slowly dying and so there were some professionals cutting it down for safety reasons and I managed to acquire about a tonne of it as they couldnt move the whole amount so they let me have the remainder. Thing is, i dont know what type it is. They are medium in size, a very rough bark and are extremely dense. Moisture content isnt excessive when cut. They dont have lots of large limbs but are very difficult to split as they have lot of small braches which make the trunk quite knotty, are quite slim even when tall and the older dead trees seem to attract a lot of woodworm. You can see some of them in the pictures.
I have posted the links to the pictures of a tree which has been untouched as this isnt overhanging. The leaves arent there yet but they are just about to flower as you can see. Id be really keen to know what they are and how good they are as firewood as I have split a load of it now and its seasoning nicely outside. I hope I havent wasted my time.
Thanks in advance.
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/RichieRambler/20160419_170717_resiz...
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/RichieRambler/20160419_170727_resiz...
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/RichieRambler/20160419_170743_resiz...
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc84/RichieRambler/20160419_170737_resiz...
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
I'm normally quite good at identifying trees but this one's got me stumped.
I'm normally quite good at identifying trees but this one's got me stumped.
10
3
In reply to toad:
Nice work, Toad, and having done a search for them they appear to be more specifically Golden Elm. I think.
Nice work, Toad, and having done a search for them they appear to be more specifically Golden Elm. I think.
Post edited at 12:31
In reply to toad:
Is elm decent wood to burn? Ive looked at various charts and it seems OK but has anyone actually got first hand experience of seasoning and burning?
Is elm decent wood to burn? Ive looked at various charts and it seems OK but has anyone actually got first hand experience of seasoning and burning?
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
It' lovely. because after dutch elm (re) infection it dies standing, so the wood often doesn't need seasoning as it already has dried out.
It' lovely. because after dutch elm (re) infection it dies standing, so the wood often doesn't need seasoning as it already has dried out.
2
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
I don't want to hijack your thread but if anyone knows how well willow burns as kindling I'd be interested to know.
I don't want to hijack your thread but if anyone knows how well willow burns as kindling I'd be interested to know.
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
It's brilliant kindling. I coppice my willow hedge on a two year cycle (ish), cut the branches into 8 inch lengths fill a builders bag and leave it for a year till bone dry. Works a treat.
It's brilliant kindling. I coppice my willow hedge on a two year cycle (ish), cut the branches into 8 inch lengths fill a builders bag and leave it for a year till bone dry. Works a treat.
In reply to toad:
Thats good to know although this is all the live stuff and so it will need seasoning and for quite a long time as far as some websites suggest.
> It' lovely. because after dutch elm (re) infection it dies standing, so the wood often doesn't need seasoning as it already has dried out.
Thats good to know although this is all the live stuff and so it will need seasoning and for quite a long time as far as some websites suggest.
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
I think I heard it said on the radio long ago that there is a superstition that if you burn willow branches you'll see the devil in your chimney!
Something to do with hallucinogens?
I think I heard it said on the radio long ago that there is a superstition that if you burn willow branches you'll see the devil in your chimney!
Something to do with hallucinogens?
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
I think a key feature of Elm once it's in leaf is to do with the leaf joining its stalk as it is normally offset on each side of the leaf. No experience of burning it, though I am a bit of a wood nerd too! Elm can be used for bow making if you have a straight stave as per some pre-historic bows that came out of a Danish peat bog.
I think a key feature of Elm once it's in leaf is to do with the leaf joining its stalk as it is normally offset on each side of the leaf. No experience of burning it, though I am a bit of a wood nerd too! Elm can be used for bow making if you have a straight stave as per some pre-historic bows that came out of a Danish peat bog.
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
After Dutch elm disease we cut and burnt hundreds of dead trees, massive bonfires burning dead elm, I remember well the copious amounts of heat it gave out when dead and dry. Should be brilliant on the woodburner, I wish it was still about.
After Dutch elm disease we cut and burnt hundreds of dead trees, massive bonfires burning dead elm, I remember well the copious amounts of heat it gave out when dead and dry. Should be brilliant on the woodburner, I wish it was still about.
1
In reply to Moley:
There's more about than you might think, although very few fully mature examples. It's a very common hedgerow tree around notts, and I've seen a lot on the canal around shropshire/ mid wales - but it's all (with a few exceptions) relatively small diameter - it isn't attractive to the beetle that carries the disease until it reaches around 6" diameter, and then crucially, it only becomes infected if the insects find it - so there are a lot of elms that are quite a bit bigger - like the ones thedrunkenbakers found.
On a related note, some good news about ash dieback - some genetically resistant trees to breed from -The problem with DE was that elms tend to reproduce clonally by suckering, so there was nowhere near as much genetic diversity, so less chance to develop resistance
> After Dutch elm disease we cut and burnt hundreds of dead trees, massive bonfires burning dead elm, I remember well the copious amounts of heat it gave out when dead and dry. Should be brilliant on the woodburner, I wish it was still about.
There's more about than you might think, although very few fully mature examples. It's a very common hedgerow tree around notts, and I've seen a lot on the canal around shropshire/ mid wales - but it's all (with a few exceptions) relatively small diameter - it isn't attractive to the beetle that carries the disease until it reaches around 6" diameter, and then crucially, it only becomes infected if the insects find it - so there are a lot of elms that are quite a bit bigger - like the ones thedrunkenbakers found.
On a related note, some good news about ash dieback - some genetically resistant trees to breed from -The problem with DE was that elms tend to reproduce clonally by suckering, so there was nowhere near as much genetic diversity, so less chance to develop resistance
3
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
OK great, thanks. I'll get it chopped up.
As for seeing the devil in the chimney, I shall report back next winter!
OK great, thanks. I'll get it chopped up.
As for seeing the devil in the chimney, I shall report back next winter!
In reply to toad:
Since you positively identified it today, many pennies have dropped. There are lots in local hedgerows and in the local small wood but many have been looking very bad and slowly croaking. Many are already dead and I took a lot of dead standing trees from a local hedgerow (with the farmers permission) last year which, as you said, was seasoned whilst standing and was burned last autumn with lots of good heat and no issue. I had no idea they could be elm or indee the same species as the recent bounty.
This recent haul was from trees which were quite large, probably 2' in diameter in some cases but many around 1.5'. Ive got some sections which I wont burn but will be used as stools in the garden they are that good. Some of the specimens left are pretty big but I suspect that they are infected too as the canopies arent very thick. Perhaps the parish council knew the ones close to the road were elm and wanted them downed before they fell on someone. I of course live in north east Notts so your range assessment could be correct as there are many close by which are mainly dead or close to it.
I read on another website that elm also smells like pee when cut and drying. The stuff I have smells more like vinegar but its not unplesant.
I have to thank you Toad. I have been wondering about the variety of these trees for years and now (assuming you are correct) the mystery is solved. Chapeau for UKC for yet again being a great place for knowledge completely unrelated to climbing.
> There's more about than you might think, although very few fully mature examples. It's a very common hedgerow tree around notts, and I've seen a lot on the canal around shropshire/ mid wales - but it's all (with a few exceptions) relatively small diameter - it isn't attractive to the beetle that carries the disease until it reaches around 6" diameter, and then crucially, it only becomes infected if the insects find it - so there are a lot of elms that are quite a bit bigger - like the ones thedrunkenbakers found.
Since you positively identified it today, many pennies have dropped. There are lots in local hedgerows and in the local small wood but many have been looking very bad and slowly croaking. Many are already dead and I took a lot of dead standing trees from a local hedgerow (with the farmers permission) last year which, as you said, was seasoned whilst standing and was burned last autumn with lots of good heat and no issue. I had no idea they could be elm or indee the same species as the recent bounty.
This recent haul was from trees which were quite large, probably 2' in diameter in some cases but many around 1.5'. Ive got some sections which I wont burn but will be used as stools in the garden they are that good. Some of the specimens left are pretty big but I suspect that they are infected too as the canopies arent very thick. Perhaps the parish council knew the ones close to the road were elm and wanted them downed before they fell on someone. I of course live in north east Notts so your range assessment could be correct as there are many close by which are mainly dead or close to it.
I read on another website that elm also smells like pee when cut and drying. The stuff I have smells more like vinegar but its not unplesant.
I have to thank you Toad. I have been wondering about the variety of these trees for years and now (assuming you are correct) the mystery is solved. Chapeau for UKC for yet again being a great place for knowledge completely unrelated to climbing.
Post edited at 18:05
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I've even burned willow logs. It does take a very long time to season (as I recall, I left it bucked for a year before I could even split it, because the maul just sank into it, so wet was the wood) but given three years it dries out and then burns really quite well.
Sure, when I come across anything better, I take that in preference (I'm currently removing, with permission, some felling for a hydro scheme, and I'm certainly taking the ash, oak, sycamore, and even pine before the willow) - but when well seasoned, it'll burn perfectly well.
I don't think I've knowingly burned elm before, but at the end of the day, seasoned logs will burn, regardless!
> I don't want to hijack your thread but if anyone knows how well willow burns as kindling I'd be interested to know.
I've even burned willow logs. It does take a very long time to season (as I recall, I left it bucked for a year before I could even split it, because the maul just sank into it, so wet was the wood) but given three years it dries out and then burns really quite well.
Sure, when I come across anything better, I take that in preference (I'm currently removing, with permission, some felling for a hydro scheme, and I'm certainly taking the ash, oak, sycamore, and even pine before the willow) - but when well seasoned, it'll burn perfectly well.
I don't think I've knowingly burned elm before, but at the end of the day, seasoned logs will burn, regardless!
1
In reply to toad:
About 20 years ago I had a regular job near Shepperton, there was a line of elms there beside a road which used to grow to about 30ft ( getting everyone's hopes up) and the die. When the beetle attacks I guess.
I've never seen any in our part of Wales (even small ones), I must ask some of the old timers if they were ever here or were they more common towards the English border.
I must look into the history of elm, strange how we can lose a species we take for granted and then forget all about it inside a generation. Sad.
About 20 years ago I had a regular job near Shepperton, there was a line of elms there beside a road which used to grow to about 30ft ( getting everyone's hopes up) and the die. When the beetle attacks I guess.
I've never seen any in our part of Wales (even small ones), I must ask some of the old timers if they were ever here or were they more common towards the English border.
I must look into the history of elm, strange how we can lose a species we take for granted and then forget all about it inside a generation. Sad.
3
1
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
We acquired a large amount of willow and it took ages to season and was a pig to split. Full of knots and little branches that went into the trunk. Still have some left
We acquired a large amount of willow and it took ages to season and was a pig to split. Full of knots and little branches that went into the trunk. Still have some left
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Old poem recited by wee brownies everywhere - esp at camp in the old days
Beech-wood fires burn bright and clear
If the logs are kept a year;
Store your beech for Christmastide
With new-cut holly laid beside;
Chestnut's only good, they say,
If for years 'tis stored away;
Birch and fir-wood burn too fast
Blaze too bright and do not last;
Flames from larch will shoot up high,
Dangerously the sparks will fly;
But ash-wood green and ash-wood brown
Are fit for a Queen with a golden crown.
Oaken logs, if dry and old,
Keep away the winter's cold;
Poplar gives a bitter smoke,
Fills your eyes and makes you choke;
Elm-wood burns like churchyard mould,
E'en the very flames are cold;
It is by the Irish said;
Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread,
Apple-wood will scent the room,
Pear-wood smells like flowers in bloom;
But ash-wood wet and ash-wood dry
A King may warm his slippers by.
Anon.
Old poem recited by wee brownies everywhere - esp at camp in the old days
Beech-wood fires burn bright and clear
If the logs are kept a year;
Store your beech for Christmastide
With new-cut holly laid beside;
Chestnut's only good, they say,
If for years 'tis stored away;
Birch and fir-wood burn too fast
Blaze too bright and do not last;
Flames from larch will shoot up high,
Dangerously the sparks will fly;
But ash-wood green and ash-wood brown
Are fit for a Queen with a golden crown.
Oaken logs, if dry and old,
Keep away the winter's cold;
Poplar gives a bitter smoke,
Fills your eyes and makes you choke;
Elm-wood burns like churchyard mould,
E'en the very flames are cold;
It is by the Irish said;
Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread,
Apple-wood will scent the room,
Pear-wood smells like flowers in bloom;
But ash-wood wet and ash-wood dry
A King may warm his slippers by.
Anon.
3
In reply to Moley:
willow spits when it burns, but that isn't a problem in a log burner, only an open fire.
I haven't a clue who would down vote your post. your point about the loss of cultural knowledge of a tree in a generation is an absolutely central point - woodland management is about planting trees for the next generation, not the next 5 years
willow spits when it burns, but that isn't a problem in a log burner, only an open fire.
I haven't a clue who would down vote your post. your point about the loss of cultural knowledge of a tree in a generation is an absolutely central point - woodland management is about planting trees for the next generation, not the next 5 years
2
In reply to toad:
I had never thought about the loss of a tree species before this post and then it suddenly occured to me that a common species I took for granted as a child has disappeared. The sad point is that I don't miss it, gone and forgotten in a blink of the eye.
As you say, plant for the future generations; we harvest firewood every year and plant every year knowing we shall never see the mature trees. I wonder if in 50 years time ash (or other endangered trees) will be long forgotten species - hopefully not.
I had never thought about the loss of a tree species before this post and then it suddenly occured to me that a common species I took for granted as a child has disappeared. The sad point is that I don't miss it, gone and forgotten in a blink of the eye.
As you say, plant for the future generations; we harvest firewood every year and plant every year knowing we shall never see the mature trees. I wonder if in 50 years time ash (or other endangered trees) will be long forgotten species - hopefully not.
1
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
There are (mainly) 4 things that affect the suitability of wood for burning.
The first three relate to heat output
The first is the calorific value of the wood itself - how many joules of energy does 1Kg of completely dry wood contain. This varies (because the proportions of cellulose, lignin and other materials vary between species), but is around 15MJ per Kg.
The second is moisture content. Anyone with an open fire shoud buy a moisture meter - they cost under £20. Measure a fresh split surface - i.e. inside. The issue with moisture is that it takes a lot of energy to drive it off (by heating it up and then turning it into steam). So 1 Kg of wood at 20% moisture is a double whammy compared to 1 Kg at 0%: there's 200g less actual wood *and* an additional 200g of water to heat from, say, 20oC to 100oC (4.2KJ/Kg/oC) and vapourise it (2.26MJ/Kg). So now you only have
0.8*15 - 80*4.2/1000 - 0.2*2.26 = 11.2MJ/Kg wet wood; a 25% reduction.
The third is the structure and composition of the wood. If wood smoulders or contains materials which have a retardant effect, then burning temperature is lower and combustion will not be as complete. This also risks depositing soot or resin glaze in your chimney.
Considerations other than heat output include:
- Wood is usually sold by volume, not weight (a "tonne bag" is a cubic metre of loose wood; probably about 0.6m3 actual wood)
- within the volume you actually get, the density of species varies hugely. A piece of fully dried oak is still heavy; a similar piece of fully dried willow or poplar is a fraction of the weight
- some wood is a pleasure to split; others a nightmare
- if you're given lengths by a tree surgeon it's worth asking (without looking a gift horse in the mouth) why the tree was felled. If it was dead through fungal infection, be careful where you cut it up and store it. Sawdust is an excellent way to inoculate your garden with honey fungus for example.
- if you're using an open fire, some woods smell lovely (e.g. apple) and some have a more bitter scent (e.g. lime)
There are (mainly) 4 things that affect the suitability of wood for burning.
The first three relate to heat output
The first is the calorific value of the wood itself - how many joules of energy does 1Kg of completely dry wood contain. This varies (because the proportions of cellulose, lignin and other materials vary between species), but is around 15MJ per Kg.
The second is moisture content. Anyone with an open fire shoud buy a moisture meter - they cost under £20. Measure a fresh split surface - i.e. inside. The issue with moisture is that it takes a lot of energy to drive it off (by heating it up and then turning it into steam). So 1 Kg of wood at 20% moisture is a double whammy compared to 1 Kg at 0%: there's 200g less actual wood *and* an additional 200g of water to heat from, say, 20oC to 100oC (4.2KJ/Kg/oC) and vapourise it (2.26MJ/Kg). So now you only have
0.8*15 - 80*4.2/1000 - 0.2*2.26 = 11.2MJ/Kg wet wood; a 25% reduction.
The third is the structure and composition of the wood. If wood smoulders or contains materials which have a retardant effect, then burning temperature is lower and combustion will not be as complete. This also risks depositing soot or resin glaze in your chimney.
Considerations other than heat output include:
- Wood is usually sold by volume, not weight (a "tonne bag" is a cubic metre of loose wood; probably about 0.6m3 actual wood)
- within the volume you actually get, the density of species varies hugely. A piece of fully dried oak is still heavy; a similar piece of fully dried willow or poplar is a fraction of the weight
- some wood is a pleasure to split; others a nightmare
- if you're given lengths by a tree surgeon it's worth asking (without looking a gift horse in the mouth) why the tree was felled. If it was dead through fungal infection, be careful where you cut it up and store it. Sawdust is an excellent way to inoculate your garden with honey fungus for example.
- if you're using an open fire, some woods smell lovely (e.g. apple) and some have a more bitter scent (e.g. lime)
1
In reply to JJL:
For me, there are two important factors:
1: does it burn?
2: is it free?
> There are (mainly) 4 things that affect the suitability of wood for burning.
For me, there are two important factors:
1: does it burn?
2: is it free?
1
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