UKC

Midgets tells us on another thread that the ability to do 1-5-8 static is ‘strong’. I have only the haziest idea what that means (presumably campus bars, despite appearances, do in fact have a standard size, material, angle and distance apart which are known to the initiate? Otherwise this seems a feat whose impressiveness is difficult to measure.)

Now down here in London we have no strong climbers, so I find it difficult to measure what ‘strong’ is. So would one of you strong people on here – you know who you are - care to tell me how the following feats rank, on a scale running from ‘useful-warmup-exercise-for-girls’ through ‘everyone-I-know-can-do-that’ ranging up to ‘yeah, but how many of those can he do in a row?’. I’m assuming we won’t be going any higher than that last one.

One-armed pull-up on a bar.
One-finger pull-up, presumably on something one can get a finger round – say a sling hanging off a bar.
One-armed deadhang from first joint edge.
One-finger ditto.
Pull-up on (smoothish and flat) roof beams.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Now down here in London we have no strong climbers,

What a load of bollocks John. We have plenty of v strong people. You just spend too much time at Mile End.

In reply to Carnage:
>> Now down here in London we have no strong climbers,

(extracts tongue from cheek)

Really? I had no idea.

(puts tongue back in cheek)

So come on then, tell me how these feats rank.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

In difficulty order

Most difficult
One Finger deadhand
One finger pullup
Pull-Up on roof beams
One Armed deadhand
One arm pull upLeast difficult

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Theres plenty down the Castle.

One armers don't mean anything. I can do 'em and I'm weak as piss.

One finger pull- up v.impressive. Only seen Fred Nicole do in a vid.

Rafter- Are you talking about a double handed vertical squeeze type thing?

One armer of first knuckle- I would say thats pretty strong.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

although all impressive, its difficult to categorise these specifically as strength feats, due to the huge amount of variables of the individuals involved.

Ru is considered 'strong' because he can static 158, but i wouldn't want him on my team in a brawl.

equally, none of the contenders for the world's strongest man, could even come close to completing any of your aforementioned tasks.

they all rely heavily on the biomechanics and weight of the person performing them, ie someone with even and long finger levers and ideally placed tendon inserts in their hand may be able to complete the first finger edge deadhang easily, but not be able to do a full hand grip one arm pullup because their elbow lever was not as efficient.

m@

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Interesting. (No really).


Even girls can do these from slightly bent. An impressive feat to do more than one if arm goes genuinely straight.

Personal Strength Rating (PSR): Trivial



No harder than a one-arm pull-up, provided you have the tendon strength. A favourite of angry teenagers who have yet to be injured (but they will be). I'd rate this amongst the "My dog can do that" category of strength.

PSR: Easy, but would tape up first.


Easiest so far. If you cant do this for at least five seconds you should give up climbing and take up ledge shuffling in Wales or something.

PSR: Laughably easy


Savage. Could actually break a man. Have never met anyone who would/could do this routinely.

PSR: Psycho.


Presumably pinching on a single beam? Strength rating: awesome. The preserve of grip strength atheletes and genetic freaks only. Luckily it seems to have no direct application
to climbing.

PSR: Dreamland

In reply to Carnage: first joint deadhang is pish...but then I can't do a one arm pull up though...big forearms, little biceps that's the problem...

In reply to Ian Hill: Sorry - Dead hang is ok. Didn't read post properly (Doh) though he mean't 1-arm pull up off first knuckle.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

I perceive that you come from the only-two-grades school of grading, midgets!

Pull-ups, I actually meant two beams, say a bit over shoulder-width apart. Stand in between them so that they run away from you to the front, one hand on each, palms inwards. Whether it would make a difference if it was a single beam and thus you had to grip it with palms towards you I am not totally sure since I can’t hang for even a milli-second either way, but I would guess that it does. Please regrade accordingly.

In reply to johncomysteriously1:

In light of that I'm leaving the beam trick as very impressive, with a PSR of project. It now lies beneath the one-finger deadhang. Just typing that makes my fingers hurt.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

OK. Well that will make someone I know who can do them happy – apart from the no-application-to-climbing bit.

A couple more questions, then:

1. How about (i) a press-up in a headstand position (ii) a push-up with someone sitting on your shoulders (iii) a one-armed pull-up while holding another climber under one arm (the other one, presumably. A feat attributed by Abrahams to Owen Glynne Jones, which I would have confidently said was impossible, but please confirm)?

2. I am confident that I couldn’t do any of these if I trained specifically for a thousand years. What proportion of individuals do you think have the genetics to do, say, a one-armer if properly trained? (I once read an article in a newspaper which said that one in ten thousand people have the genetic endowment to do a one-armer.)

In reply to midgets of the world unite:
Presumably pinching on a single beam? Strength rating: awesome. The preserve of grip strength atheletes and genetic freaks only. Luckily it seems to have no direct application

That's easy. Can't touch any of the others though.

Well I'm moving down to London for a year next September so be prepared for someone to rip all your holds off.


Absolute piss.


Not that hard if you can take the pain.


Absolute piss


Never known anyone do it, and I certainly can't.


You mean pinch it? Doubt this could ever be done.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

One-armed deadhang from first joint edge. Easy.
One-armed pull-up on a bar. Harder
One-finger pull-up, presumably on something one can get a finger round – say a sling hanging off a bar. Not much diffrent from One-armers.

One-finger deadhang.
Pull-up on (smoothish and flat) roof beams.
Never even seen those two performed.

In reply to jonas:

We seem to have a bit of a consensus about everything except the beam pull-up: possibly partly because I didn’t describe it very well but perhaps also partly perhaps because it actually isn’t much related to climbing (although I find this a little hard to believe).

So, biomechanically speaking, if a one-finger pull-up is not that different to a one-armer, why is it that a one-finger deadhang is so much harder than a one-handed deadhang? And how would people rate these next to, say, 1-5-9?

(Surely we’ve all seen pictures of Wolfgang Gullich not only doing one-finger first joint deadhangs, but actually campussing on them, haven’t we? Or am I misremembering?)

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: one-finger first-joint deadhang using both hands easy, campusing too, deadhanging using only one finger of one hand - ultra world class

and a with one finger pull up you're not using just first joint...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

In the one-finger pull up scenario you've described the load on the finger is very close to the hand. That makes it easy.

Deadhanging the load is on the end of your fingers. Ouch.

Doing 1-5-9 obviously uses different strengths to these feats, but I'd rate it in the middle.

IIRC Wolfgang would deadhang using both hands. Deadhanging on a single finger is sooo much harder. Campusing seems easier than deadhanging too. I can campus on single fingers, but couldn't hang off a campus rung only using one finger.

For what it's worth I remember the OG Jones feat as well. Something about doing one-armers off an ice axe with a smaller climber hung round his waist. Brutal.

In reply to Ian Hill:

Ah, OK. You mean those pictures one’s seen of Wolfgang’s finger hanging off a single-joint edge – he actually had another finger in play at the same time? I suppose that’s quite possible.

I realise one’s using the whole finger for a one-finger pull-up, but the consensus is that’s pretty much the same as a one-armer. It’s a little odd that a deadhang using only the first joint of one finger is so much harder than a deadhang using the first joint of every finger on a hand, no? (not saying this isn’t true; just can’t quite rationalise it)

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Brutal rather than simply-impossible-I-don't-believe-it, which is how I would rank it?

What about the press-up ones?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

>(i) a press-up in a headstand position

I can do that (with someone spotting my toes so I don't fall over) without much of a problem. It's not very difficult compared to one armers and one finger malarky.

>(ii) a push-up with someone sitting on your shoulders

As above - but easier than the handstand and way easier (for me anyway) than one armers.

Plyometric pressups (when you push up off the floor and land again) are pretty tough though - the pressup equivalant of doubles on a campus board.

Some more:

- One arm front lever (a la John Gill in Masters of Rock)
- One finger front lever (I've seen Jerry M come close a few years back)

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

there was also an ascertion that his feet were on a chair set back from the board out of shot, so it was still effective and valid training for AD, but not as intitially impressive as the photo makes out.

m@

In reply to m@ at home: if it's the photo I'm thinking of then he's campusing (frozen by flash mid move) which ain't too hard on one finger...

In reply to m@ at home:

I think we might be doing Wolfgang a disservice here with these rumours about feet on chairs and stuff I've spent a bit a time in the company of people (no lightweights themselves) who climbed regularly with him who were in awe of his strength and power and his ethical stance on these matters.

B

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: pull up using pinch (both hands)on roof beam fairly easy others listed not possible (by me)

In reply to Ben Tye not logged in:

It was just a photo of him training. I'd made assumptions about what he was doing, but no-one was claiming he was doing anything in particular.

Interesting what you say about the press-up things; to me these seem way harder than a one-armed deadhang on an edge. Not that I can do either.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

It seems to me that pull ups pinching on beams is actually easier than it sounds, especially as most of the people who claim to do it can't do the other things.

As a scientific experiment I will go home and see if I can do it.

In reply to Tim Hutchinson:

It presumably depends upon the exact beams, spacing, width, etc. The person I saw do it can certainly do a one-armed deadhang; whether he can do a one-armer I don't know. But there were some moderately strong people there by my lights who couldn't leave the floor or indeed hang the beams once up there. I was quite impressed at the time.

But I look forward to your report. When you move here you must come down to Mile End and kick some local ass. According to Carnage it'll be easier here than at the Castle.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Yeah, I've been to the Castle a few times coz my sister lives near by. The grading there is pretty tough. English 6b boulder problems that felt about 7a. I'm pretty sure it wasn't just me as there was barely any chalk on any but the first couple of holds. It was like this on nearly all the problems.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:
>but no-one was claiming he was doing anything in particular

I know, but it was edging toward the "He was stood on chair.. he must have been as weak as p*ss" type of discussion and I wanted to set the record straight

>Interesting what you say about the press-up things...

It's hugely dependant on physiology - you and I are on the opposite ends of the 'climber's build' spectrum.

In reply to Ben Tye (not logged in):

it wasn't edging anywhere near 'he was stood on a chair', read my post again.

no one needs reminding he was truly awesome.

m@

In reply to Ben Tye (not logged in): I find the plyometric press up thing very easy - hand clapping in the middle of it and all that - but couldn't for the life of me do a push up with someone on my back...it's power versus strength, I have lots of the first, little of the second...

In reply to Tim Hutchinson:


Your dead right there. Mile End probs are much easier than those of similar grade at the Castle. Many of those (much harder than) 6b's are set by a guy who gives them 6b if he does 'em first or second go.

Like I said, there are strong people in London, but like MOFTWU's recent topic, they keep themselves to themselves.

In reply to Carnage:

How does that work then? As far as I know there aren't any graded problems at Mile End.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: Then whats with all the colour coded nonsense?

In reply to Carnage:

Nah, the thing about the Castle is that a strong mutant sets the grades upstairs on the overhanging bit while a softie sets them downstairs.

In reply to Carnage:

Colour x is harder than colour y. But I don't think anyone says colour x is UK 6b, or whatever. This is a cunning device on the part of the management to prevent unkind visitors from saying that problem a is never 6b. Doesn't work, evidently.

In reply to Carnage:

Mile End's original name was the 'North London Rescue Commando', a grand name for a group of small boys who enjoyed splashing about in the canal under the watch of a kindly scoutmaster-type. A strong eccentric/ parallel-universe tendency has persisted there ever since.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1: I seem to remember that there was a little chart that said colour x = 4c-5b, colour y = 5b-5c and so on. Maybe things have changed

In reply to John Gillott: Hmmmmm, have you been downstairs in 'the Pen' recently?

In reply to Carnage:

Oh yes, the same strong person might set some on the overhanging bit there. On the other hand, the flat panel on the right of The Pen is the most welcoming of venues by comparison.

In reply to Tim Hutchinson: really i've never found that, it pretty difficult to grade bouder problems just using the british technical grading system. 6b could be anything from V4 to V8..

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:

Lifting up the Lancs guide without grunting beats any of those.

Oh, oh, one I can/could do! Use to be able to do this when I was in school, push ups from headstand to handstand and back again. Can't do them now, mainly 'cos I've lost all sense of balance.


Yay, I like these Managed to do one of these with my dad (15st) sat on my shoulders. It nearly killed me, don't accept dares from family members!


I've pulled a belayer off the floor trying to get slack in a hurry (one hand on hold, one hand on rope, haul very hard), does that count?


I'm not sure I believe that. I've never done any specific weight training or gym work but I notice that if I spend more than an evening a week climbing I get stronger, if I spend less than that, I get weaker.

So I'm sure if sufficient dedication was applied by pretty much anyone, they could do at least some of these. Decent training schedule and diet would probably speed up any strength gains, but "just doing more exercise" should work eventually. For the last two, careful choice of "someone" will make things easier, for the first, it's mainly a matter of balance.

Admittedly for me (iii) did depend on a fairly large amount of adrenaline being present, (ii) was in the presence of suitable alochol and peer pressure and (i) was one of those things you learn how to do during school gym classes.

I've no chance of doing any of the finger stuff in the near future, and I've never been able to. I have caused permanent damage to two of my fingers through trying to haul on them rather than falling off (yup, both ring fingers) so I don't really want to try these games too much, especially as they don't seem to affect climbing ability too much. Finger strength really seems to be required for very specific problems, generally better footwork and technique seems to be the key to climbing harder (that, and a relaxed attitude to falling off).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously1:


-Piece of piss, saw one of my mates doing it, tried quite hard for a few months(no training - just trying when i was bored) and can now go from crouching over my knees with my hands on the floor, pushing up into a full handstand.

>(ii)a push-up with someone sitting on your shoulders
- never tried it but since i can do......

..... the plyometric press up things - it prob wouldn't be too hard.

However, i'm a pretty crappy climber, and can't even get near doing one-armers(can do one arm locks), or any of the other stuff mentioned, so i guess it's totally non-climbing related strength/power.