This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Recently climbed Heaven Crack (VD) at stanage popular,
Which on first glances looks, and is infact incredibly steep. But a Vdiff all the same, with fantastic climbing. Can't help but get confused when you see 6b-7a sports routes, which are steep, not a jug in sight. What is it about steep over hanging ground that seems to never produce jugs.
Is it because the pioneers of climbing used to sclupt holds on the routes they were climbing, namely restricted to lower grade, less steep ground due to lack of protection, and now the steep stuff is climable with advances in pro, but with the modern ethics, the routes just never gets the holds that would have surely been put onto steep routes if pioneers were still running the show so to speak? Are there any more routes like this Stanage classic across the uk?
Which on first glances looks, and is infact incredibly steep. But a Vdiff all the same, with fantastic climbing. Can't help but get confused when you see 6b-7a sports routes, which are steep, not a jug in sight. What is it about steep over hanging ground that seems to never produce jugs.
Is it because the pioneers of climbing used to sclupt holds on the routes they were climbing, namely restricted to lower grade, less steep ground due to lack of protection, and now the steep stuff is climable with advances in pro, but with the modern ethics, the routes just never gets the holds that would have surely been put onto steep routes if pioneers were still running the show so to speak? Are there any more routes like this Stanage classic across the uk?
46
In reply to zimpara:
Try Kilnsey or Filey (Home to the steepest 6b+ you'll ever try) or pretty much any vaguely orange looking Spanish limestone cave. I think it's just where you're looking to be honest.
jk
Try Kilnsey or Filey (Home to the steepest 6b+ you'll ever try) or pretty much any vaguely orange looking Spanish limestone cave. I think it's just where you're looking to be honest.
jk
8
In reply to zimpara:
Counter example: Andrew at Bosigran. Vdiff, with a slightly overhanging top pitch covered in jugs.
There's no need to accuse the old timers of chipping. Try leading a few in nailed boots with a hemp rope and no gear and the "very difficult" grade will make more sense.
Counter example: Andrew at Bosigran. Vdiff, with a slightly overhanging top pitch covered in jugs.
There's no need to accuse the old timers of chipping. Try leading a few in nailed boots with a hemp rope and no gear and the "very difficult" grade will make more sense.
6
1
63
In reply to zimpara:
Firstly, well done. It is a class route and for the grade it feels like it climbs improbable terrain. However, it is not incredibly steep. It is a vertical wall. An example of steep: Bibendum (7b+) (incidentally, the smallest hold on this route is an enormous jug and it's 7b+)
Any sport route that is truly steep (30-45 degrees) between 6b-7a, is by necessity literally nothing but jugs.
^ This makes very little sense to me.. Are you saying we don't get juggy steep routes because people don't chip jugs any more?
> Which on first glances looks, and is infact incredibly steep.
Firstly, well done. It is a class route and for the grade it feels like it climbs improbable terrain. However, it is not incredibly steep. It is a vertical wall. An example of steep: Bibendum (7b+) (incidentally, the smallest hold on this route is an enormous jug and it's 7b+)
> Can't help but get confused when you see 6b-7a sports routes, which are steep, not a jug in sight. What is it about steep over hanging ground that seems to never produce jugs.
Any sport route that is truly steep (30-45 degrees) between 6b-7a, is by necessity literally nothing but jugs.
> Is it because the pioneers of climbing used to sclupt holds on the routes they were climbing, namely restricted to lower grade, less steep ground due to lack of protection, and now the steep stuff is climable with advances in pro, but with the modern ethics, the routes just never gets the holds that would have surely been put onto steep routes if pioneers were still running the show so to speak? Are there any more routes like this Stanage classic across the uk?
^ This makes very little sense to me.. Are you saying we don't get juggy steep routes because people don't chip jugs any more?
6
In reply to samwillo:
I'm not accusing or excusing anyone of chipping-but maybe we dont get steep juggy routes because nobody chips anymore. Merely stating that if there are jugs on a UK climb, its either very sensibly angled, easy climbing, or if it is steep, then it might have a few (relative word) with massive nasty reaches and moves to the jugs and off, not jug hauling up a 30degree wall.
Its just odd that easy angle stuff has jugs galore, and steep stuff they most nearly vanish. Or the gear certainly does.
I'm not accusing or excusing anyone of chipping-but maybe we dont get steep juggy routes because nobody chips anymore. Merely stating that if there are jugs on a UK climb, its either very sensibly angled, easy climbing, or if it is steep, then it might have a few (relative word) with massive nasty reaches and moves to the jugs and off, not jug hauling up a 30degree wall.
Its just odd that easy angle stuff has jugs galore, and steep stuff they most nearly vanish. Or the gear certainly does.
Post edited at 11:36
23
10
In reply to zimpara:
Oh, I don't know. Satan's Slip (E1 5a) is relatively easy angled. There aren't many jugs. There aren't many on Beinn Trilleachan (Etive Slabs) either.
Quiver Rib (D) is steeper than you'd expect a diff to be but has holds so large they can fill with water.
T.
> Its just odd that easy angle stuff has jugs galore, and steep stuff they most nearly vanish. Or the gear certainly does.
Oh, I don't know. Satan's Slip (E1 5a) is relatively easy angled. There aren't many jugs. There aren't many on Beinn Trilleachan (Etive Slabs) either.
Quiver Rib (D) is steeper than you'd expect a diff to be but has holds so large they can fill with water.
T.
3
In reply to zimpara:
Never been to Pembroke? With all due respect, I think you need some wider experience before making rash statements.
Al
Never been to Pembroke? With all due respect, I think you need some wider experience before making rash statements.
Al
28
In reply to zimpara:
Because:
a) It's steep... Most holds outside are not 'jugs' in the outdoor sense, in that they are not good bucket holds with a lip, carefully aligned so that the bucket. Take the average 'juggy' slabby climb and tilt it back 30 degrees and now there isn't a jug on it - the jugs are formed by the angle of the rock.
b) that's just not how rock works. Often jugs=lines of weakness, weakness on an overhanging wall=not overhanging any more. Exceptions are solutional things in limestone, I guess.
No.
> Recently climbed Heaven Crack (VD) at stanage popular,
> Which on first glances looks, and is infact incredibly steep. But a Vdiff all the same, with fantastic climbing. Can't help but get confused when you see 6b-7a sports routes, which are steep, not a jug in sight. What is it about steep over hanging ground that seems to never produce jugs.
Because:
a) It's steep... Most holds outside are not 'jugs' in the outdoor sense, in that they are not good bucket holds with a lip, carefully aligned so that the bucket. Take the average 'juggy' slabby climb and tilt it back 30 degrees and now there isn't a jug on it - the jugs are formed by the angle of the rock.
b) that's just not how rock works. Often jugs=lines of weakness, weakness on an overhanging wall=not overhanging any more. Exceptions are solutional things in limestone, I guess.
> Is it because the pioneers of climbing used to sclupt holds on the routes they were climbing, namely restricted to lower grade, less steep ground due to lack of protection, and now the steep stuff is climable with advances in pro, but with the modern ethics, the routes just never gets the holds that would have surely been put onto steep routes if pioneers were still running the show so to speak?
No.
5
In reply to zimpara:
Can't help with UK options but if you get down to the Lerida zone in Catalunya two crags stand out:
Collegats Cine single pitch on conglomerate
Vilanova de meia multipitch has unforgettable action at V+
Can't help with UK options but if you get down to the Lerida zone in Catalunya two crags stand out:
Collegats Cine single pitch on conglomerate
Vilanova de meia multipitch has unforgettable action at V+
In reply to zimpara:
Try Symonds Yat - loads of steep jug-pulling there at the easy grades.
In fact a number of natural limestone crags have similar routes.
Try Symonds Yat - loads of steep jug-pulling there at the easy grades.
In fact a number of natural limestone crags have similar routes.
2
In reply to zimpara:
"
I think the opposite. Slabs tend to have the least gear, steeper ground tends to have more.
One thing I would say is that harder routes on the whole tend to have less gear, the reason for this is gear often goes in features that make good holds and the presence of good holds tends to lower the grade. This is a generalisation though and clearly there are plenty of hard routes that are atleast adequately protected.
I think overall steeper grounds tends to make more jugs than slabs as slabs tend to get water worn (or were formed from glaciers) and this makes them flatter.
"
> Its just odd that easy angle stuff has jugs galore, and steep stuff they most nearly vanish. Or the gear certainly does.
"I think the opposite. Slabs tend to have the least gear, steeper ground tends to have more.
One thing I would say is that harder routes on the whole tend to have less gear, the reason for this is gear often goes in features that make good holds and the presence of good holds tends to lower the grade. This is a generalisation though and clearly there are plenty of hard routes that are atleast adequately protected.
I think overall steeper grounds tends to make more jugs than slabs as slabs tend to get water worn (or were formed from glaciers) and this makes them flatter.
Post edited at 13:58
3
In reply to zimpara:
Depends on the rock type. Loads of overhanging jugfests on Pabbay and Mingulay. There are steep juggy routes elsewhere, the Sloth springs to mind. As someone said, Kilnsey has steep jugfests - well into the 7s.
Depends on the rock type. Loads of overhanging jugfests on Pabbay and Mingulay. There are steep juggy routes elsewhere, the Sloth springs to mind. As someone said, Kilnsey has steep jugfests - well into the 7s.
2
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Let me try that one again:
a) It's steep... Most holds outside are not 'jugs' in the indoor sense; they are not good bucket holds with a lip, carefully aligned to make them easy to hang off.
Apologies, normal service will now resume... :P
> a) It's steep... Most holds outside are not 'jugs' in the outdoor sense, in that they are not good bucket holds with a lip, carefully aligned so that the bucket.
Let me try that one again:
a) It's steep... Most holds outside are not 'jugs' in the indoor sense; they are not good bucket holds with a lip, carefully aligned to make them easy to hang off.
Apologies, normal service will now resume... :P
6
In reply to zimpara:
Steep and easy, you're not finding it? What you need is some Blue Sky (VS 4b) thinking!
Steep and easy, you're not finding it? What you need is some Blue Sky (VS 4b) thinking!
1
In reply to andrewmcleod:
I think that's it, basically.
The steeper the ground, the bigger and closer together the jugs have to be in order for something to seem "juggy".
The other obvious point is that if something's genuinely overhanging then it'll get hard and pumpy pretty fast - particularly if you have to hang around to place gear - regardless of how big and frequent the jugs are.
I think that's it, basically.
The steeper the ground, the bigger and closer together the jugs have to be in order for something to seem "juggy".
The other obvious point is that if something's genuinely overhanging then it'll get hard and pumpy pretty fast - particularly if you have to hang around to place gear - regardless of how big and frequent the jugs are.
1
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Exactly. Once you get up to or beyond vertical, there's a limit to how easy the climbing can possibly be no matter how huge the holds are. And that limit seems to be around VS, see also Oxine (VS 4c)
Exactly. Once you get up to or beyond vertical, there's a limit to how easy the climbing can possibly be no matter how huge the holds are. And that limit seems to be around VS, see also Oxine (VS 4c)
1
In reply to zimpara:
Try Spiral Stairs on Dinas Cromlech. Very exposed but on magnificent jugs with loads of gear placements. VD
Or Route 1 on Upper Scout Crag, Langdale. The second pitch is quite simply superb, beautifully exposed on small pockets, not over endowed with gear placements but one of the best VDs in Langdale.
Not a sculpt hold in sight on either.
Try Spiral Stairs on Dinas Cromlech. Very exposed but on magnificent jugs with loads of gear placements. VD
Or Route 1 on Upper Scout Crag, Langdale. The second pitch is quite simply superb, beautifully exposed on small pockets, not over endowed with gear placements but one of the best VDs in Langdale.
Not a sculpt hold in sight on either.
3
In reply to AlanLittle:
Quite. The OP mentions v-diff. Is there even such a thing as an overhanging v-diff? Not that I've ever come across. Great routes perhaps crossing through unlikely or overhanging ground, but the route itself? No.
> Once you get up to or beyond vertical, there's a limit to how easy the climbing can possibly be no matter how huge the holds are. And that limit seems to be around VS, see also Oxine (VS 4c)
Quite. The OP mentions v-diff. Is there even such a thing as an overhanging v-diff? Not that I've ever come across. Great routes perhaps crossing through unlikely or overhanging ground, but the route itself? No.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Overhanging Arête (HVD 4a)
A fun solo above steep ground.
> Is there even such a thing as an overhanging v-diff?
Overhanging Arête (HVD 4a)
A fun solo above steep ground.
1
1
In reply to zimpara:
Get on castle crack at Bowden goes up a steep crack and then through an over hang on huge jugs at HVD.
Get on castle crack at Bowden goes up a steep crack and then through an over hang on huge jugs at HVD.
1
In reply to zimpara:
There are a huge amount of jug fest 6b-7a routes out there. What are you on about? Why are you accusing a massive number of people of chipping holds?
There are a huge amount of jug fest 6b-7a routes out there. What are you on about? Why are you accusing a massive number of people of chipping holds?
3
In reply to Cheese Monkey:
6b-7a are not easy routes. (Particularly 50 years ago.) The jugs on those routes are relative to 7a holds.
I'm not accusing or excusing. But if you think route developers dont manufacture holds and remove others then you should know better.
6b-7a are not easy routes. (Particularly 50 years ago.) The jugs on those routes are relative to 7a holds.
I'm not accusing or excusing. But if you think route developers dont manufacture holds and remove others then you should know better.
Post edited at 19:45
19
In reply to zimpara:
Out of interest: do you think that the holds on Heaven Crack were all "put on" by the first ascensionists?
Out of interest: do you think that the holds on Heaven Crack were all "put on" by the first ascensionists?
9
In reply to zimpara:
You are the one that said 6b-7a in the OP! Difficulty is entirely relative to ability.
That sounds exactly like accusations to me. So to be clear are you or are you not accusing "route developers" of chipping? Which ones? What routes? Do you have any idea what you are on about?
Go out and do some climbing rather than spouting ill informed nonsense. Raw Deal at Cheddar, steep 7a jug fest. Enjoy
> 6b-7a are not easy routes. (Particularly 50 years ago.) The jugs on those routes are relative to 7a holds.
You are the one that said 6b-7a in the OP! Difficulty is entirely relative to ability.
> I'm not accusing or excusing. But if you think route developers dont manufacture holds and remove others then you should know better.
That sounds exactly like accusations to me. So to be clear are you or are you not accusing "route developers" of chipping? Which ones? What routes? Do you have any idea what you are on about?
Go out and do some climbing rather than spouting ill informed nonsense. Raw Deal at Cheddar, steep 7a jug fest. Enjoy
7
In reply to zimpara:
At Mild Severe the crux section of Mitre Buttress Direct on Grey Crag gives fantastic, steep climbing on great holds. A stunning pitch.
Mitre Buttress Direct (S)
At Mild Severe the crux section of Mitre Buttress Direct on Grey Crag gives fantastic, steep climbing on great holds. A stunning pitch.
Mitre Buttress Direct (S)
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Little Chamonix (VD) might fit the bill
> Quite. The OP mentions v-diff. Is there even such a thing as an overhanging v-diff? Not that I've ever come across. Great routes perhaps crossing through unlikely or overhanging ground, but the route itself? No.
Little Chamonix (VD) might fit the bill
2
15
In reply to zimpara:
"But if you think route developers dont manufacture holds and remove others then you should know better."
This has of course happened and still occurs, however in a very limited number of cases I would suggest. I think the absence or presence of large holds on a route is primarily down to geology, physics, erosion etc rather than first ascentionists.
"But if you think route developers dont manufacture holds and remove others then you should know better."
This has of course happened and still occurs, however in a very limited number of cases I would suggest. I think the absence or presence of large holds on a route is primarily down to geology, physics, erosion etc rather than first ascentionists.
2
A grit example
The Rasp (E2 5b)
Is made up of holds and jams that are so good that it would be less than VS if vertical. So good, that if it leant just a little the other way it might even be like heaven crack in some ways. However, it leans back by something like 15 degrees, the consensus is middle to hard E2 and I can't get up it despite being able to do other climbs that one cannot see any holds on from a short distance. It's not rocket science.
(I can't see any sign of Mr J Brown having chipped it either)
2
In reply to zimpara:
Depends on the rock -- but steep/overhanging jug-hauls can happen.
The Red River Gorge, in Kentucky, USA, is well-known in fact for steep to over-hanging jug-hauls.
Still, unlikely to get a Vdiff that is more then vertical -- even on huge holds, anything more than vertical will almost definitely be harder than Vdiff just because of the steepness.
Depends on the rock -- but steep/overhanging jug-hauls can happen.
The Red River Gorge, in Kentucky, USA, is well-known in fact for steep to over-hanging jug-hauls.
Still, unlikely to get a Vdiff that is more then vertical -- even on huge holds, anything more than vertical will almost definitely be harder than Vdiff just because of the steepness.
In reply to dagibbs:
Mexican wave at dancing ledge, not a small hold on it, and you can clip 6 draws in from the ground with a stick, that how steep it is.
question is, how long can you dangle for?
Mexican wave at dancing ledge, not a small hold on it, and you can clip 6 draws in from the ground with a stick, that how steep it is.
question is, how long can you dangle for?
In reply to zimpara:
Geology !
One of my local limestone crags is a quarried face with a fault line in the middle, to the left the bedding plane tilts towards you and although the holds look good and sharp it's hard to hold on . To the right the bedding plane is sloping into the cliff so it's nice in cut jugs.
> What is it about steep over hanging ground that seems to never produce jugs.
Geology !
One of my local limestone crags is a quarried face with a fault line in the middle, to the left the bedding plane tilts towards you and although the holds look good and sharp it's hard to hold on . To the right the bedding plane is sloping into the cliff so it's nice in cut jugs.
1
In reply to Kevster:
Fair play to you if you find 7a+ easy, but sadly it's not for me and (I would guess) the majority of climbers on here.
Fair play to you if you find 7a+ easy, but sadly it's not for me and (I would guess) the majority of climbers on here.
Post edited at 10:21
In reply to zimpara:
To my mind it's quite simple - a feature that is a jug on an easy angled route becomes a finger edge when it's tilted back. Try one of those adjustable walls that some climbing walls have - a few degrees of extra angel make a world of difference to how useful the holds seem.
To my mind it's quite simple - a feature that is a jug on an easy angled route becomes a finger edge when it's tilted back. Try one of those adjustable walls that some climbing walls have - a few degrees of extra angel make a world of difference to how useful the holds seem.
1
In reply to zimpara:
Route B (HVD) Steep and covered in jugs(ish), also VDiff! Also, also close to you as I think you are based in the SouthWest. I still don't understand your initial question though!
Route B (HVD) Steep and covered in jugs(ish), also VDiff! Also, also close to you as I think you are based in the SouthWest. I still don't understand your initial question though!
1
In reply to nniff:
a few degrees of extra angel make a world of difference to how useful the holds seem.
Indeed, some holds are truly heaven sent!
a few degrees of extra angel make a world of difference to how useful the holds seem.
Indeed, some holds are truly heaven sent!
5
In reply to zimpara:
There are plenty of examples of slabs covered with huge jugs, slabs with tiny holds, steep walls covered in jugs and steep walls with tiny holds. I was going to say that you should seek a wider variety of locations, but your logbook tells me that you already have - so you should already have realised the above??
> Its just odd that easy angle stuff has jugs galore, and steep stuff they most nearly vanish. Or the gear certainly does.
There are plenty of examples of slabs covered with huge jugs, slabs with tiny holds, steep walls covered in jugs and steep walls with tiny holds. I was going to say that you should seek a wider variety of locations, but your logbook tells me that you already have - so you should already have realised the above??
1
In reply to Phil Anderson:
The climbing is not hard, or technical, it's just physical.
Given how overhung it is in its 10m length, 7a is an easy grade.... acton direct isnt much diferent in length if you wish to compare. You'll never get a big overhang at french 5, it's not possible as 5s don't require the ability to brachiate for a minute or so, even on an indoor wall with the biggest holds around it would still be mid 6s.
Op wanted easy jug hauls on steep ground, easy is all relative to what the alternatives are.
The climbing is not hard, or technical, it's just physical.
Given how overhung it is in its 10m length, 7a is an easy grade.... acton direct isnt much diferent in length if you wish to compare. You'll never get a big overhang at french 5, it's not possible as 5s don't require the ability to brachiate for a minute or so, even on an indoor wall with the biggest holds around it would still be mid 6s.
Op wanted easy jug hauls on steep ground, easy is all relative to what the alternatives are.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Loading Notifications...