UKC

I am all for empathy towards all situations involving gender and sexuality, but is this something they should be bringing to the schools. I can see this being massively abused and ruined for any of those who are genuine transgender. I'm kind of for it, but terribly against it due to the amount of problems this is going to cause. A boy wants the right to get changed and toilet with the girls etc. I'm positive there will be students and parents out there that will opposed to this, I can't see how they expect it to work.
What do you guys think?


The Education and Justice Departments will send a letter Friday to every public-school district in the country notifying school administrators that discrimination against transgender students violates federal civil-rights law.

https://richarddawkins.net/2016/05/schools-are-put-on-notice-to-respect-tra...

In reply to Dominicandave: Any answer to this can be terrifically long as there is a lot of detail to cover but first of all it is basically a remiinder not to break a currently existing law. It is not possible to massively abuse this. A teenage boy cannot simply announce one day that he's transgender and wants to change with the girls that week . He needs to have been treated for a long time as transgender - I don't recall the exact wording, but what you describe is not possible, just a hairy-scary-fairy story.

Yes, there is a lot of resistance to this at various levels, and whether or not the Obama admin has over-reached or not. But this is basically a storm in a teacup that various right wing groups are very happy to blow up. What do you think currently happens with transgender students?

What do you think?

In reply to wbo:
Well you kind of answered in agreement. A child can not just claim to be transgender, there must be a long process involved, a process way longer than a childs period at school. And so it defeats itself unless it is saying that basically a child does have the right to change gender when they want and that must be respected, that is where the 'massive abuse' comes into it. Otherwise there is nothing to change in the system as it is. And so I probably don't get it, and I'm not even sure they can get what they are trying to say, the reality makes it impossible, I think.

I mean is transgender even a significant thing in schools? This seems to have sprouted from nowhere. I've never heard of a case when a stink was kicked up because a transgender was not acknowledged in school. Although it must have become an issue in order for them to have addressed it. You'd have thought anyway, otherwise why bother.

In reply to Dominicandave:

I struggle with the idea that we can treat a child, who we bestow without enough self-awareness to drink, have sex, work a proper job or generally make responsible life decisions to be cognizant enough to clearly choose their own gender.

In reply to Dominicandave:


A friend of mine transitioned (FtM) in about 18 months during 6th Form, and it's possible to go from "passing for a girl" to "passing for a guy" in a matter of weeks. Kids in the US are in high school for, what, four years?

There has not been a single incident of a trans woman sexually assaulting another woman in a bathroom. Anywhere. Ever.

In reply to stewieatb:

It says in the article that schools will have to acknowledge the childs 'new' name, and so I would presume the child would have had to had legal change of status which I presume there is a legal age restriction on. Although that is only my presumption.
Strange to get the head around.

In reply to Dominicandave: Yes, bear in mind this is really for 6th for schools. And while I agree that this is a long process, requiring the child to have been functioning as a transgender person consistently for some time, it is not true that the process is so long that it won't occur in schools.

It happens, it's not common and is normally accommodated in some way. it's become news as the Obama administration have issued formal guidance, and some states, notably Texas have said no way and introduced some straw man arguments based around the right to privacy.

Go to npr.org - there is a lot of stuff to listen to there. I don't know what news sources yo usually follow, but it hasn't really sprung from nowhere.

In reply to neuromancer:
I don't think it's a simple as choosing.
It's about knowing your gender, not choosing it.

As for the other stuff, we underestimate children. They are far more capable than we let them be most of the time.

In reply to Dominicandave:
The way I see it, it isn't a boy that wants to get changed with the girls, it's a girl (born with the wrong or ambiguous body parts for whatever reason) that doesn't want to get changed with the boys. Or vice versa.

It's not a choice, or a fad, a small number of people suffer gender dysphoria and we should have ways of dealing with this. Unisex individual toilets for example, or arrangements where children can get changed in cubicles like in swimming pools. In this day and age it shouldn't be that complicated.


Instead of disliking, why not explain your point?

In reply to Dominicandave:

The letter was prompted by North Carolina's HB2 legislation:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article68401147.h...

In reply to wbo:
Exactly..

TBH first thing is kids don't shower at school. Americans don't do public nudity...

secondly, they will be using cubicles for the rest room. Even showers, if used, are commonly walled off unlike in the UK.

We have 3 transgender students in a school of 3500.

Someone shared a great picture saying 'conservative ladies, do you really want this guy in the same rest room as your husband?' And it was a great looking transgender girl.

In reply to neuromancer:


Most transgender people say they knew from something like Age 5...

I thought like you did and don't think surgery or hormone treatments should be used unless the student is threatening to take their own life, but anything else we should do to help.

In reply to Dominicandave:

i think its difficult to understand unless you've known a kid who's gone through it. If you have you likely understand that it makes perfect sense then. Quite often its just obvious

In reply to marsbar:
I think I have explained my point, and I haven't disliked anything, but I will try to explain further. There is the thought we do not offer children as much independence as they deserve, the choice to make decisions for themselves on certain things and there is a reason for this, and it is because they are children.

On the idea that gender is not a fad, I agree, but I also know that as a child is when we go through some of our most confusing years. I had a friend that throughout highschool was convinced he was gay, and back in the day that was unheard of, a boy coming out in school. He adopted the whole package in what seemed like a few weeks and within the year was prancing about like a fairy, all of which he had obviously seen on TV or something, as it was so unnatural. But that was short lived once we got into the second year of 6th form and the novelty wore off. By the end of school year, what with going out and stuff he had managed to end up having a few girlfriends. Now I know sexuality and gender are not exclusively related, but it goes to show how this whole gay thing was a fad, more of an attention thing than an inner feeling. And so I do not see why the same would not apply to kids knowing that they could play about with the whole gender thing if it allowed them the attention they craved.

I don't think it would be a big thing, but can you see where I can see this causing issues that just don't really need to be there at that age. By all means have unisex toilets, but then do we not open the doors for kids just having sex in the toilets? We can pretend that wouldn't be abused, but I'm betting by a few it would. Allowing kids to change their names and gender legally before 18, can they even do that?
And if this has all kicked off because of something the US has began taking issue with, I really don't think following US policy on anything or even addressing things the US considers relevant the way for us to go.

But it is what it is, I'd have just thought with all the troubles they are having in schools right now, adding to those would be the last thing they'd want.

In reply to Dominicandave:


Sexuality is not a binery option, "you are either gay or straight", for some it's sliding scale and that can be particularly confusing/difficult for kids to work out who they are,e specially when mainstream society says you are one or the other (and has a set of stereotypes to conform to, once you've picked) and no ambiguity should exist.


Do you REALLY see this as a big issue? Kids the world over pretending to be transgender for attention?


If your biggest worry is that some kids might have sex in a cubicle (i imagine they are all desperate to shag each other but the lack of unisex cubicles on school property has so far held back the tide of debauchery) I think you priorities are a bit skewed.

In reply to neuromancer:

If that CHILD is 16, in Scotland they can join the Army, get married without parental consent, and have kids. Sometimes, they get to vote too. Still 2 more years in school.

I'm sure at least some of them (us, as was once) have an idea about their sexuality, gender identity, etc.

In reply to Dominicandave:
I don't really get the problem...if a person identifies as male, despite being born female, then they should go into the male bathroom...and vice versa.

Is the problem people have about sexuality? That somehow a male will be transgender and become a female, then go into the female bathroom and sexually assault a women?

If so, how is this different from having a gay man in the men's bathroom, or a gay women in the women's bathroom...should we have separate bathrooms for gay people?

Storm in a teacup!

In reply to Dominicandave:


I am all for being immediately wary of any comment or opinion starting like that.

In reply to marsbar:

Also, we overestimate their ability to make rational decisions time and time again. I study this a lot at work as we get recruits down to 17, and every university head psychologist we've got in has given us the same schpiel - they still have children's sized emotional control, even if their rational brain has developed a lot earlier.

Also, since the scientific evidence for being 'born' trans and there being a 'trans brain' is at very, very best shaky and almost non existent, and in general suggests 'it's probably mostly environmental' (quoting the head of neurology and genetics from Oxford who was on radio four the other morning), I think that the whole argument is pretty bankrupt.

Let adults do whatever they want, but stop treating children like adults.

In reply to neuromancer:

If I, as a female cannot define what it feels like to be a woman, how can a male 'feel like a woman inside', or be 'born in the wrong body'.

A lot of this seems to be about reinforcing gender norms when we should be breaking them down.

In reply to phja:

I partly agree, but knowing 'people' I know there would be parents complaining if a boy was going to the same bathroom as their daughter, or changing for PE with the girls. This is how society is.

In reply to DaveHK:


That might be because you are possibly also one of those people who is constantly looking to be offended, or spin others opinion to cause an issue that does not exist.

In reply to galpinos:

Actually my biggest worry is them getting it all wrong again and instead of reinforcing society, they drive divides that were not there before. Something they seem to do alot of in recent history.

The reality is doesn't and shouldn't effect me so...................

In reply to Dominicandave:


Just because some parents might get upset doesn't mean that their needs are greater than those of the transgender girl (whom you referred to as "boy"). Recall a time in the US 50 years ago where that statement would be:
I partly agree, but knowing 'people' I know there would be parents complaining if a black person was going to the same bathroom as their child, or changing for PE with the white children. This is how society is.
No further comment needed.

Secondly you seem to have missed out the question of why it's okay for gay children to use the same bathrooms? If people really were worried about sexual attraction in the bathrooms then they would need to be kicked out too. The only remaining difference is their sex organs - is it really that outrageous that one person has different shaped sex organs than the others?

In reply to SenzuBean:

You seem to be another one of these who is looking for offence where none is intended, our society seems to be full of these characters these days. I stated the transgender as a boy because there are a lot of parents that will identify a person with a penis as a boy, and that is as plain as that.
Trying to compare what I am saying to racism in the US is again, a spin you want to put on this where there really is none to be had. The two are not in any way similar, and I think you probably know that. Infact I fail to see any similarity what so ever.

As far as your comment about gay children using same bathrooms as straight children. I'mm not sure what your point is. Are you trying to say that schools should just have boys and girls all getting naked together before sports? If so then I think you would find a massive protest from parents and students. Some girls will not want to be ogled at by boys, yet find it fine to undress infront of fellow girls, I think that is a natural instinct from a young age. Are you suggesting that children should have to accept transgender unmodified kids in their changing rooms while they are naked, because I can see how some kids would be uncomfortable with that. At that age your mind has not developed enough to process nudity maturely.
If this is what you are driving at, that we should enforce adult mentality on our kids then I think you are massively wrong and out of touch with the minds of little girls. I don't care if you are one or have one, I am a father of a daughter and I know that she would very much feel uncomfortable changing infront of a boy, and by boy I mean another kid with a penis.

Is it really outrageous that we have different shaped body organs you ask? Well no, not as an adult, but as a child for many kids, getting naked, well yes it very much is.

Stop applying adult ideas to children, that is just wrong and doesn't work.

In reply to marsbar:


This is a hugely wasteful approach to a very minor problem.

For urination flushing toilets are a waste of water and other resources, it would be far better simply to require women to stand at the pissoir with the men.

A friend of mine recently purchased a SheWee copy from Poundland, she didn't mention cost but I think it may have been £1.

So standing should be trivially easy, even for those women without £1, a common solution for a makeshift funnel, for putting oil, water, petrol in the car was to roll up a glossy magazine and then shape it into a funnel by widening one end. I see no reason why a copy of Cosmo wouldn't suffice, or they could even have perforated pull-out sheets inside ready for the purpose.

Insisting on private sitting for urination is just laziness or pretentiousness:

2Grand2Stand? ©

In reply to neuromancer:



Did you actually look at the science? You can't just make up an absence of evidence,..

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J082v51n01_06
". Most youth reported feeling they were transgender at puberty, and they experienced negative reactions to their gender atypical behaviors, as well as confusion between their gender identity and sexual orientation. "

Another one shows evidence of it happening around the time of puberty
https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=8M4zWpllja4C&oi=fnd...

High School in the US is grades 9 through 12. So above the age of puberty. The scientific evidence strongly suggests children will have identified as transgender by or during those years.

In reply to winhill:

It might be prudish but many women prefer privacy when changing tampons or other period equipment.

My stepdaughter's school has quite a few transgender pupils. The school only has unisex toilets - their main noteworthy characteristic is a lack of mirrors, to stop kids lingering in there.

In reply to Dominicandave:


Are you having a laugh trying to say that I'm not allowed to be offended if you "didn't intend it"? Get real.


They are very similar. They're both discrimination. If you fail to see any similarity then I can only point you to the wikipedia page on discrimination and hope some of it sinks in.


What if you were the parent of the girl born with a penis? Would you want your child to come home crying every day? Actually have a hard think about what you'd do if your daughter was in that position - and would you really tell them they don't get to go where they feel they belong because some other children might not accept them for who they are?


You're the one applying adult ideas to children. It is an adult idea in the first place that boys and girls should be separated. Children are not naturally fearful of differences - they pick up ideas from their parents, and then become parents and give those same ideas to their children. The same argument was trotted out for racism - that children wouldn't like it. But evidence shows that without being given the idea of racism, children tend to be more inclusive.

The problem with separate and roughly equal sized male and female toilets anywhere that gets busy is that it takes women much longer to go for a pee because there are always queues for a limited number of cubicles. On the other hand the male toilet is full of cubicles that nobody is using because the urinal is faster. If all the cubicles were put in a unisex loo instead of split between separate male and female loos there would be twice as many available to the women and less queuing. So maybe it would be more practical as well as making life easier for transgendered people.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

You can't draw that conclusion logically. All you can draw is that "some people who report as 'trans' tend to report that they felt trans at a younger age also'.

And that doesn't give you the evidence to suggest that children are categorically able to, and without influence, bias, desperation for attention, or any attempt to test their boundaries decide that they are once and forever trans - which is what you're saying.

In reply to Senzubean:

Can you stop trying to paint people having a rational discussion as racists? It's infantile and no better than those guilty of godwin's law. You aren't born 'trans', you are born 'black'. They're different.

In reply to Dominicandave:
You would need to get the buy in from the other pupils that were using the toilets (of either gender) If they are ok with nominated pupils using their toilet then there will be no issue. Maybe they just need to Poll the kids.

Edit maybe not nominated, but identified transgender kids (so that you don't get any prankster wandering in)

In reply to neuromancer:

You said there was an absence of evidence "almost non-existant".

Think about it. When do we start to be become aware of our sexuality? It will for the majority be at puberty when the sex hormones become active.

You are wrong.

You are not having a rational discussion. You are spreading ignorance. That is not rational.

In fact I'd say you have it totally wrong, there is almost no evidence it will occur at a later age. Many finally come out at older ages, often after children, but the feelings of not fitting in start very very early, for some before puberty.

Have a look at google scholar. Show me so links. That is a rational discussion. Outlandish incorrect statements made as though you have looked at the science is not a rational discussion.

In reply to Tall Clare:

I don't think they are going to be insisting on sharing toilet stalls ! (where I presume this would normally be done, not out at the washbasins)

In reply to neuromancer:
Wow, do you have any idea?

You do realize you are often born trans? It happens throughout the animal kingdom.

There is a genotype associated with it... it is not just a 'today I'm going to be Terri not Terry' feeling?

You really need to pipe down and go and read something about this field..

"

In reply to Jim C:

Washing out a mooncup or washing bloody hands (apologies to the squeamish) would happen at washbasins. My stepdaughter's school has the individual cubicles down the sides then communal washbasins in the middle of the space.

In reply to neuromancer:
http://www.iiav.nl/ezines/IAV_607530/IAV_607530_2010_2.pdf#page=26

Page 25 on here..

Children become aware much younger than previously thought..

Kennedy 2008 says the average age kids become aware is 8...

Come on show some evidence to contradict this? Lets have a rational discussion..

The age of epiphany had a spike at age 5 with a mean at 8 in the study linked above..

Kennedy 2008 is here: http://www.wwwords.co.uk/pdf/validate.asp?j=forum&vol=50&issue=3&year=2008&...

http://eric.ed.gov/?id=EJ809528

Look at figure 4 on page 390? Age at which people first became aware..

82 became aware between 2 and 11.. 23 became aware between 11 and 17.. 5!! became aware after age 18?

As I said your statement was ignorant.

In reply to Dominicandave:


I'm not offended at all, just pointing out the general unsoundness of statements like your opening one. Usually when someone say's 'I'm X (or not X) but...' they tend to go on to present the opposite. Which is what you did albeit in a slightly qualified and guarded fashion.

In reply to SenzuBean:


I pointed out that you are one of these people that looks to be offended where none is intended. Like people who find Frankie Boyle jokes offensive.


Children also need to learn that they can not always be accommodated in life. Is it discrimination because the naked rambler keeps getting stuck in prison? Yes, discrimination against his freedom to walk naked around those who do not want to see him naked. We can't always just have everything the way we want if it is going against the grain of the general population. Be it right or wrong there are things in life that are not fair.

I would take it for what it is, and try to look at it from others point of view. Would the school prefer one child to have to conform throughout school or half a class who were upset because what they considered a boy was allowed in with them while undressing. I would help my daughter understand the situation, and I'm sure she would already be used to it somewhat and it would not be a massive deal for her to carry on as she had all her school life up until that point.


I disagree entirely. You are saying that kids think about the human body the way adults do which is silly.
As far as your idea that kids pick up ideas of segregation for nudity from their parents is utter rubbish, maybe some do but not exclusively. I've lived and worked in Haiti and the Dominican Republic among other developing nations for many years where kids running around naked is the norm. The children become body aware as they become sexually aware of themselves, from around the age of 6, 7, they are beginning to cover up appropriately to how they feel, what they feel needs covered up. By the age of 9, 10 they are bouncing off each other, girls groups and boys groups, private parts become something they begin to figure out. The divide is created between themselves and nothing to do with adults at all, they become embarrassed if their privacy is violated not because of anything parents install. By puberty they are in the mode where attraction comes into it, and the reality that they have certain qualities that are attractive to boys, and vice versa. And so on. Your concept that kids get these ideas from parents is simply untrue, nowhere else in the world would you find better examples on how this occurs than in countries where clothing is optional. It is a natural process of growing up.

And as far as your argument on racism being similar to this issue................ Well, I dunno where the similarity is, it seems a stupid idea to compare such massively differing things, I just can't. But I do agree that racism is taught.

In reply to DaveHK:


Well, not really did I. The fact that I stated I am not, in your mind means that I am?
OK. Carry on with what you are doing I can't discuss anything with someone who makes up both sides of a discussion.

This effects me neither way, and so I have no hidden agenda in this. If I felt it was wrong then I would just say it is wrong. What I am saying is that I can only see it bringing about problems that do not need to exist. I am looking at it from the side of the parents who will complain, wondering why the school is bringing about more issues than they currently have. This is not my standing on it, I have none and is why I brought it up so that I might have an informed opinion aside from what I already initially think.

In reply to Jim C:



Yes, I can see that working and probably the most realistic and intelligent way forward.

In reply to Dominicandave:

What if the polled kids say no though?

In reply to neuromancer:


I can't do that, because I never painted anyone as a racist.
You have no choice in the matter if you identify with a different gender - the same as being unable to choose your skin colour.
How about gay people - are they choosing to be who they are too because it's not a physical characteristic or set of genes? Don't bother answering that - it'll be as painful for me to read as for you to write.

In reply to Dominicandave:

>But I do agree that racism is taught.

I'm not sure it is totally. I think it can be made worse but I do think we intrinsically move towards similar people. I think its why we have to work hard to integrate and fight policies and politicians like Trump who incite segregation and racism. I really don't think racism lurks that far beneath the surface.

There was a recent study in the US comparing mortality rates in hospitals. Black patients had worse outcomes than white.

They compared verbal and non verbal communication. Verbal communication was identical. Non verbal wasn't. The eye contact, touching, sitting in the bed.. doctors treated the white patients better and this actually affected patient survival.

I've not yet found the paper but looked at others but haven't looked at how they accounted for the physicians race.

In reply to Dominicandave:

"...and I'm sure she would already be used to it somewhat and it would not be a massive deal for her to carry on as she had all her school life up until that point"

It is a very big deal for somebody who is trans which is why the suicide rate is so frighteningly high.

In reply to Dominicandave:


But why nominate? Why should the child have to be outed as transgender..

In reply to CasWebb:


Exactly..

"And a study last year by mental health organisation PACE revealed that nearly half of the 2,000 transgender young people polled in the UK had attempted suicide, and that 59 per cent had self-harmed, compared to nine per cent of all of that age group. Meanwhile, one clinic has reported that referrals are increasing by 50 per cent every year."

From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/family/transgender-children-my-son-told-me...

Look at those states.. almost 50% attempted suicide.. 59% self harmed..

In reply to Tall Clare:



Quite a few transgender in one school? Interesting, would you say that there are quite a few because of how the school deals with it?

In reply to Roadrunner5:
All the first paper does is re-quote kennedy, and reinforce with articles following the same faulty methodology.

Let me break it down for you. Alternatively, you can just re-read my original reply because you didn't actually read it.

1) You can't expect to get a bias-free answer from an adult about when they first "felt" they were trans because they have a vested interest in presenting their identity in a specific way

2) You cannot extrapolate back from an adult who is sure that they have a trans identity to a child and say "therefore, they were responsible and sure as a child". You ignore the likely subset of adults who currently do not identify as trans but who may have felt trans as a child due to hundreds of extant factors (e.g. not fitting in with social groups of their birth gender at that point in time)

That is NOT to say that a child who feels trans will not want to be trans forevermore, or that they are to be marginalised, or that they are to not be allowed to explore both their sexuality or gender identity, but that you should not treat them as adults and magically able to make their mind up about things when we don't expect them to be able to do that in any other single field of human development.

In reply to Dominicandave:


wow.. what a leading question..

As I said we have 3-4 Transgender kids maybe more.

'quite a few' is pretty unclear. What would you say is acceptable without the school environment creating more somehow..

In reply to Dominicandave:
From conversations with my stepdaughter, it seems there are more LGBT kids because other kids are more accepting of it than they might have been, say, twenty years ago. It seems like it's just no big deal any more. My stepdaughter came out recently and, being prone to being a bit dramatic, I think she expected a big reaction, instead of everyone just shrugging and carrying on their conversations.

In reply to CasWebb:


I accept that, but is the answer to this to force other children to accept what they very well may not understand? I'd be afraid that enforcing something others were against would push them even further out rather than welcome them in.

Quite possibly the first step before enforcing all this is to educate all kids on transgender, and I don't just mean a days talk on it. I mean kids should be educated from the beginning on this, once kids understand it then they will be more open to understanding and accepting it.

In reply to neuromancer:

You ve used no science!

All you've done is re-hash your own misunderstandings.

Find some evidence? You say the evidence supporting my view is 'almost nonexistent'. Well I showed papers.

You have totally unsubstantiated views and ideas that you have

"You ignore the likely subset of adults who currently do not identify as trans but who may have felt trans as a child due to hundreds of extant factor:

Then show some data? Point to a paper.

As I said lets have arational debate. lets not just make up situations. How can you use the word 'likely' with no actual evidence?

In reply to Roadrunner5:

I said quite a few because I don't know how many - at least four or five.

In reply to neuromancer:

At around age 7:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/07/parents-transgender-children_n_440...

http://www.rhm-elsevier.com/article/S0968-8080(13)41695-6/abstract?cc=y=

The easiest and kindest way is let the kids use the bathroom they feel most comfortable with using.

In reply to Tall Clare:

In our school of 3-4k I think it stands at around 3-4 but I've heard others say double that.

1 in 1000 seems like a believable stat, estimates range from 1 in 30k to 1 in 1k..

"The Equalities and Human Rights Commission did a survey of 10,000 people in 2012 that found that 1 in 100 people has issues with their gender, whether they have done anything about it or not.

And a study last year by mental health organisation PACE revealed that nearly half of the 2,000 transgender young people polled in the UK had attempted suicide, and that 59 per cent had self-harmed, compared to nine per cent of all of that age group. Meanwhile, one clinic has reported that referrals are increasing by 50 per cent every year.

‘There’s an outdated view that children can’t “know” if they are transgender,’ says Green. ‘Yes, there might be one in 1,000 who changes their mind, but what about the other 999?’"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/family/transgender-children-my-son-told-me...

Again plenty of kids in that article said at very young ages..

In reply to SenzuBean:
Yes, you did. You likened people who disagreed with you on a child's right to use x or y toilet with 50s anti-civil rights racists. Please re-read your own post; as the people you abstractly accused also seemed upset.

Anyway, why ask me? I'm no more a neurologist or biologist than you are. You have an emotional investment clearly; I'm interested from an abstract point of view.

However, the head of the Stem Cell Biology and Developmental Genetics at the UK's top research lab literally stated on national radio that the evidence for the influence of genetics and/or the state at birth of a child on them being trans is at best, possibly less than 5% and likely less and even then, there was almost almost no reliable research to provide evidence for this in any way. His belief was that it was mostly environmental.

Now does this mean that you can change it magically half way through life just by saying "I choose not to want to be the other sex" - no. But that is not what I was saying (though it is exactly what you responded to because it makes it an easier straw man).

In reply to wbo:

" I don't recall the exact wording, but what you describe is not possible, just a hairy-scary-fairy story."

Am I bad for finding humour in the end of your line on the topic of transgender?

In reply to Roadrunner5:
No, actually if you re-read my post I said that the evidence supporting there being "trans brains" was almost non-existant.

However, in response to your repeated posting of Kennedy, I read Kennedy. And Kennedy makes a simply faulty logical leap. If you think it is not faulty, please defend it. The faulty leap is to believe that because people who as adults identify as 'trans' can hark back and think 'yes, I felt trans as a kid', that when a kid says 'i feel trans' he or she knows exactly what he or she is talking about.

One of these things is NOT like the other.

In reply to neuromancer:

Show a link to that interview?

I'm very very surprised. We see it in nature.

Heres some links but there are many more..

http://journals.aace.com/doi/abs/10.4158/EP14351.RA
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19359705.2013.753393

In reply to neuromancer:
You say that leap is faulty..

Those who made that statement don't. I showed many examples of kids at age 3-4-7 years old making those calls..

http://www.scimento.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Nature-Article-Sex_redefi...

This is a nature article..

The view of just Male and Female sexes is out dated..

In reply to Dominicandave:

As Tall Clare said, kids are far more accepting of differences than adults. Children accepting trans children is generally not the problem, it's the parents who need educating that trans children are not in any way a threat to their child.
You don't have to understand something in order to accept it, and no amount of education will help somebody to understand what being trans really means.
In UK law it is already illegal to discriminate against somebody for being trans so it is perfectly correct to enforce that law, but that doesn't mean it is easy for everybody. Do the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many? If it prevents a great deal of pain and anguish for the one, then yes they do.

In reply to neuromancer:



Hold on.. so the environment causes the man to grow a womb?

Hermaphrodism has been reported throughout the animal king down, rats, baboons, monkeys and people.

In reply to Roadrunner5:
YHM

WRT the article you posted; you really should read some of these (as I am doing!)

Investigations into the effects of hormone exposure on the developing fetus have focused on gender identity in intersex people, which is often unpredictable, and proxy markers for prenatal hormone exposure such as finger length ratio and birth order,

A few small neuroanatomical studies show distinctions in transgender people, but

>Numerous studies demonstrate that male-to-female (MTF) transgender people have higher rates of left-handedness,

The sum total of that article (i realise that is the abstract but I read the content and it largely agrees) is that there is a weak correlation between post-gender reassignment trans individuals and left handedness?

If someone could repeat on a large scale the old MRI survey that everyone quotes but is much abused, I would be very interested to see the results.

Anyway I have to go back to work so I'll peace out.

In reply to neuromancer:

I don't think we know..

We know the more obvious causes, the bigger changes, the sex chromosome issues.

Otherwise we don't know exactly what causes transgender. We have many hypotheses.

But likewise the evidence its environmental or some stage harks back to our views on gays in the 1950's.. I think we should be careful not to make the same mistake..

In reply to neuromancer:

There have been studies which seem to show a genetic cause:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-there-something-unique-about-t...
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught...

I'm not saying they are right or wrong, simply that research is still ongoing and the simple thing is that we don't currently know why some people identify as trans anymore than we know why some people are straight or homosexual, indeed we may never know.
But it does not matter why for those who are affected by it, they just want to live their lives in peace in the correct gender, and that has no impact on anybody else.

In reply to wbo:


O.K so a 15 year old boy is a fully diagnosed transgender lesbian.... you'd be happy for him/her? to walk into the girls toilets and flop out their manhood in full view of your 10 year old daughter who he might fancy being a lesbian and all.

In reply to Indy:


Yes, because they would use a cubicle.

and 2) it was in schools. 10 year olds are not in the same school as 15 year olds. Most US school districts go grade 9-12 in HS, MS is 6-7-8 and if not the elementary's go to grade 8.

3) them being a lesbian should not matter. Its them being transgender.. or are you now wanting to know sexuality?

In reply to neuromancer:


Err no I didn't call anyone a racist (which you accused me of doing) - I said (in a roundabout manner) that racists and transphobic people were both discriminating against others.


Err so? It's totally irrelevent whether its environmental or not. I never claimed it wasn't - only that it's not a choice.

In reply to Indy:
That says more about your ignorance of what being transgender means than anything else. No 'fully diagnosed' transgender person wants to display their genitalia to anybody as they just remind them of what they are trying to 'escape' from.

In reply to Roadrunner5:




They might just be visiting and need to use the toilet. Not everything gets done in a cubical. A male transsexual lesbian would by definition be attracted to the gender in the toilet they'd be using again would you want your young daughter potentially exposed to that?

In reply to Indy:

Just because one is attracted to people of a particular gender, doesn't mean they're attracted to every person of that gender - your example also veers into the realm of paedophilia, which has nothing to do with homosexuality or being transgender.

In reply to CasWebb:


But a male transgender lesbian in a female toilet might be having perfectly normal urges of a sexual nature. Would it be right to expose the females in the toilet to that?

In reply to SenzuBean:



Above is what you said and so..............
Well, you were not just defining discrimination as you now claim were you. You were trying to state that parents who had concerns about their children sharing changing rooms with another child of the opposite sex were equivalent to the racists of 1950 USA, which is utterly stupid, infact beyond stupidity.

In reply to Indy:


Yes.. why would that be an issue.

Do you really have so little control over yourself that you couldnt be in a rest room with a girl you found attractive and not have to force yourself on her.

In reply to Indy:


And in the US is does happen all in the cubicle from my experience. people are very body conscious and have huge issues with nakedness..

Go in a US sauna and you see guys in hoodies, even with shoes on.. very very few will shower in full view, even adults.

In reply to Dominicandave:



I never said they were equivalent - simply that the discrimination issue of the day would be framed with the same sentence, and by extension the sentence was wrong then, and that it's wrong now.

But anyway, that is just semantics. The issue is whether or not it's discrimination - I think it is, you don't think it is. I think you (unfortunately) have a severe lack of empathy on what it must feel like to be anything other than what you currently are now. That's not something that can be gained from an internet discussion - so I don't feel there's any point to debating you further.

In reply to Roadrunner5:



I don't think this is the point, besides other things we are in a time where we are trying to accommodate every religion into schools also, some that would probably react less than tolerant to such a situation. This is the point I was making initially it will create so many problems.

In reply to neuromancer:


Yeah, the bean hasn't called people racist. I think you understand that.


There are many things you are not when you are born, that you are however going to become with effectively no choice in the matter. Research strongly suggests many trans people are in that category.

Which is why the analogy with racism is worth considering, as in neither case does a person get to choose their race or gender identity.

If anyone on here wants to come to the point and suggest that people can and do excercise full free will and conscious control over their gender identity, come out and say it.

Edit: that's my fastest won dislike to date. Guess you have to press the button if you can't stomach sharing your views with the thread instead...

In reply to Dominicandave:

My experience.. you know actually being in US high schools on daily basis, is kids are fine and think wtf is everyones problem going on about this..

Its been a non-issue since we introduced the policy. Absolutely nothing.

On the right wing talk shows you'd think we'd have guys going into girls rest rooms and raping girls..

Its just not an issue. Young people are far more accepting.

Even the right wing talk show hosts are now saying stop flighting this because its actually not a big issue. Hell even Trump has said that.

What they are now saying is Obama over stepped and the federal government shouldn't make such calls, the states should.. Thats now becoming the standard conservative line. The other arguments just make them look ignorant, narrow minded and scared.. and I think they are finally realizing that has to change if they want power again.

In reply to Indy:

Any more than a female-at-birth lesbian?

In reply to SenzuBean:



Really, yet you chose to use racism rather than anything else? Interesting.
And the issue is not about who considers it discrimination, I think it is obvious that it is. You are making assumptions. The point is that it is a situation that is going to be extremely difficult to control without causing massive issues elsewhere.
And this constant barrage of presumptions from you is confusing to the glancing reader, that I have a lack of empathy is again on your agenda for some twisted reason. I have been stating the realities of carrying something like this through, and the reality that some parents and children will object. I haven't even given my personal opinion on how kids feel as transgender, as my opinion will mean very little, as will any of ours. All I can do is speak as a parent about how I know kids and parents are likely to feel.
If it became my place to say how things should be then I will deal with that when it comes along. As I think all cases should be rather than implementing a national song and dance about something that will not effect many of our schools.

In reply to Dominicandave:

"The point is that it is a situation that is going to be extremely difficult to control without causing massive issues elsewhere. "

I work in a high school. Our transgender students use the toilet they chose. No one cares.

We have syrian refugees, devout muslims, orthodox jews, and almost every race imaginable in a school of 3-4000 students.

Its just a non-issue.

In reply to Roadrunner5:





That is good news, I hope it goes down over here as well.

In reply to Indy:


In your world, "perfectly normal urges of a sexual nature" involve 10 yo girls?

In reply to galpinos:


It might be a 15 year old boy looking at a 12 year old girl or a 30 year old man looking at a 40 year old woman. The point is maybe a male shouldn't be in a female toilet. Also are women/girls coming out of a toilet and seeing a male to assume they're trans-gender, a pervert or a rapist?

Political correctness gone mad.

In reply to Indy:



You do realize that in your world big 'guys' with beards and muscles.. Will have to use the female rest rooms because they were born female..

In reply to Indy:


That's not what you said though was it.


You specifically used the 15yo trans and 10yo girl scenario. One might assume you'd used those ages to get the emotive response you were after.......

In reality, I'd have no issue with a trans boy (identifying as a girl) using the same changing room as my daughter at school. I would imagine life isn't all rosy for a transgender child, I' hate to think my daughter was making it worse for them. I think your "image" of a much older transgender boy intimidating young girls (who wouldn't be in the same school) with their "manhood" is a figment of your imagination and a far cry from the day to day interactions of trans children at school across the country.


Yeah, I used to love discriminating against minorities in the old days, if only life was like that now. Oh no, wait......

In reply to Indy:



In Germany we had sauna's naked together... ladies had their own in their changing rooms and the main one was for us all. I took my wife in with me and sauna'd naked with many women.

They didn't know if I was a rapist, a pervert or what. We just exchanged pleasantries and got a sweat on..

In reply to Roadrunner5:

I don't know if you use or read the American Letsrun forum, but they've been getting in a larger over this, and the issue of "men" running as "women" (Caster Semenya being a hot topic). I can't be bothered to do the research, but do you have any view on it? People are giving the impression that a decent male runner could simply identify as female and compete against women.

As far as toilets go, I couldn't care less unless it involves having to spend a load of money the country hasn't got accommodating a tiny proportion of the population.

Out of interest, does anybody know at what age can somebody have a sex change in this country?

In reply to Yanis Nayu:



There was someone very very young starting the process. Age 8? Maybe even younger?

I read lets run a bit as you get good advice. But its vicious and dominated by guys who ran 8 minute 3 ks in college and retired at 22 hating the sport.. The conservative media have been pushing the idea that you can just identify as a female and thats enough. Its just not true.

Personally, at the amateur level. Let them compete within reason. I think they've been through enough. If they are dominating the sport then you have to look at it but otherwise I just think it is great they are feeling involved and in the community.


Obviously when it comes to the olympics it has been discussed. If

women can compete as transgender men, men can't compete without treatment.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/jan/25/ioc-rules-transgender-athlete...

In reply to Roadrunner5:

Cheers) Yes, Letsrun is quite robust. People should be forced to read some threads on there before moaning about UKC.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Yeah I rarely post because if they smell weakness or you get someone's time wrong they will tear you a new one..

It can be pretty vicious, especially on newbie runners but the training advice can be superb.

This is one girl who went through it at 16, a German pop star: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Petras

But I thought there was someone who started hormone treatment before puberty as a way to make it easier for her to remain a girl and not get the testosterone once puberty hit.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:



A little bit. But you will notice now that Indy and Dave are coming up with the exact conjectural what-if bogeyman stories used in North Carolina and Texas to justify bigotry against transgender people, and impose some pretty nasty (. And totally unenforceable ) laws (to curry favor with certain voter groups ). Ergo the Obama admin being forced to issue a directive to clarify the law.

In reply to Dominicandave:

This is a great thread! A proper debate about something contentious.

I've not got much to say on the matter as I'm not personally affected by it but I'd say it's a little chink of light....some progress. We should take every opportunity to close divides and dilute ignorance. Some of the comments on this thread suggest that whilst a good start has been made, we still have some way to go.

Wow, people really try to close down opinion, not even opinion, maybe just forethought and throw labels around on here. No one can have an opinion without a label? Pathetic.

'I don't believe things will go as plain sailing as they'd hoped with the whole transgender in school thing' ------- 'You are discriminating against transgenders'.

'I know that there is a problem in the US where in Texas under 25 AA males are 9 times more likely to commit a crime' ----- 'Racist'.

etc etc etc

There is a type out there now that finds it clever to cripple discussions by throwing around labels that mute discussions, this is very easy and dull. I think this type are responsible for the breakdown in communications these days, politics is littered with these breakdowns. It's quite disheartening to watch how otherwise intelligent adults can't debate/discuss without having to throw rocks out of the cart. I find it rather pathetic.

In reply to Dominicandave:





I think you need to look at what Indy put.

And no, its no how intelligent adults debate. They don't suggest that a transgender adolescent will have sexual desires for a 10 year old girl.. even worse that they won't be able to control them..

Not respecting that view isn't a break down in communications it is simply saying that such views are wrong..

Or do you think homosexual men shouldn't use toilets around 10 year old buys, or a 15 year old lesbian shouldn't use the toilet of a 10 year old girl?

It highlights how we haven't made that much progress, we have and we haven't.

This is the sort of thing Obama's been great at. These are nothing issues for most kids in the US because thankfully we tend to be more progressive as time passes.

In reply to wbo:


And so you admit that there could be an issue there, as this is after all 'the exact conjectural what-if bogeyman stories used in North Carolina and Texas to justify bigotry against transgender people', as you stated?

And so this makes the issues a person brings up, the opinions that they hold? Interesting concept, but surely you are not silly enough to presume such a thing. How are solutions found if all stations are not covered..

In reply to Roadrunner5:

I teach psychology and have a lot of transgender friends and it's both. There's evidence that women have a smaller sexually dimorphic nucleus (which gives us our sexual identity) than in men but because of too few of too many chromosomes sometimes males are born male but with a small sdn so this means they know their sexual identity by birth and their sexuality or orientation by 14 - the gentital stage. But there's also lots of research that says lack of parental role models, so skewed families, causes gender confusion.

In reply to Indy:



Also

The right wing in the US use this argument.. perverts will now go into toilets and rape girls..

So these perverts are OK at raping girls.. but before this law was passed they wouldn't want to break the other law of using a female rest room...

Suddenly they have an epiphany.. 'now I can actually go into the rest room to commit that rape..'

You've got to think things through a bit.

In reply to Roadrunner5:

I've nothing to do with any exchange involving any sexual desires. I haven't mentioned sexual desires at all. This is about gender and not sexual attraction, for me anyway. Obviously some are having their own ideas.

In reply to Dominicandave:

Children ad young as seven in America are transgender and have been given the opportunity to act as their proposed sex, including changing in 'opposite' gender toilets

In reply to Indy:

Do you not understand that people just want to go for a piss? And btw women don't have urinals so it would be in a cubicle. No one gets naked in a womens loo. We just use the cubicle then wash our hands, have a chat and do our hair.

In reply to Roadrunner5:


I think the NHS won't prescribe hormones until 16, but will potentially provide hormone blockers (after a long wait) to reduce the horrible effects of the wrong puberty on the body. These can be stopped without long term problems if the child does not end up wanting to transition. However other countries have different regimes.

Transgender folk, if they have different genitals from other bathroom users, will not as a rule be flashing those genitals around because they will be ashamed of them and just want to pee without being outed or attacked. I know of no incidents where a transgender person has committed assaults in the loo, but most of my trans friends have been assaulted in the loo, hassled or turned away.

Kids will transition at school after a period living as their target gender amongst family. It will usually be obvious when the kid is trans as they will go from being miserable in their birth gender to happy in their new one. If they aren't able to transition at school their schoolwork will suffer, they will avoid school, and their childhood will end up being messed up. Putting more obstacles in their way to 'make sure' will make things worse not better. If transgenderism is destigmatised then the rare occurrence of exploring one's gender and then choosing not to transition as an adult should not be a tragedy!

In reply to marsbar:


That was very funny, laughed so much my daughter came to ask what was wrong with me.

In reply to Dominicandave:


Forget your empathy. What about your belief in the universality of human rights and your acceptance of scientific understanding, as both reflected in various equality legislation?


Can't think of a better place to start.


Gender equality has a long way to go. Look how baked in to our language sexism is (see above)...

In reply to newishclimber:


Yeh I saw something about a documentary on this not long ago, although missed the actual show when it was on. At that age I'm concerned, because how long now before they are allowing surgery to minors and that imo is too much too early.
I have a friend, a Canadian Female to Male who went through half the surgery (boobs) and is really suffering all sorts of depressions and mental issues from the meds he/she (sorry I still struggle to call her, him as I only see a female when I look at him, no matter how much bum fluff he's managed to grow, how many tattoos she's had to hide the scars from having breasts removed, the name change the whole package) has been on to start producing male stuff, hair, voice etc. Infact when I look at him I don't see a woman in a mans body,, I see a woman in a mans clothes, the complete opposite of what he wants to portray. Anyway it's not important what I feel or think, if he feels better then mission accomplished. But the point is that he at 40 is going through a hell of a lot due to the change, to allow a child to go through that would be insane, but I reckon is on the cards in the US.

In reply to Dominicandave:
Aren't you missing the point that it is probably far easier to allow a child to transition (Or block development hormones) before they get the features of the sex they don't identify as?

I was talking to a mate a few months back who told his mate 'well done, I'm fully behind it' when he said he was transitioning.. The Guys wife wasn't so happy and wasn't sure if she or the kids will stick around. He said he felt bad for such a 'go for it' reaction when he thought about the impact it will have on his family.

I really find it hard to get agitated about "bathroom stuff" the way many seem to.

Assume the worst case scenario: A school with a deviant student who might prey upon others, in any way, from bullying to sexual molestation. The hypothetical perpetrator might be "trans", "birth gender aligned" or under the belief they are half vampire, half wookie and human morals do not apply to them, it doesn't matter.

If there is any increased risk of harm(of any kind) occurring to someone in a bathroom it is not due to the purpose of that room, it is because it often means people are isolated from others. This often isn't at all acknowledged due to what a bathroom is for and the connotations of nether regions and their other uses so some people get their (modest) panties in a bunch and simply stop thinking.

There's only one thing that makes sense to me for all bathrooms and that is larger facilities with individual cubicles that make it so that it is unlikely a potential aggressor and potential victim are to be the only ones in there for a predictable period of time.

Instead of seeing anyone else in such a place, one of perhaps increased vulnerability, as a likely a attacker is it not better to see other people or, the possibility of them entering, as potential witnesses/defenders and so have more of them? Unless we all believe that everyone is a predator and just waiting for an opportunity... if so (and it might be the case with many)we have bigger problems.

In reply to Roadrunner5:


What, like a cock n balls or a pair of tits?
And I think it is dangerous to play with kids natural biological progression with blockers and hormones or whatever else they use.

You say probably, but I'd say you are most certainly probably wrong on this one.

In reply to Dominicandave:




Yet it happens. Kids threaten to kill or harm themselves.. What would you do if it was your kid?

Let them mutilate themselves? Commit dioxide? That is what happens..

In reply to Roadrunner5:



Depends on the age of my child at the time. Kids threaten suicide for all kinds of reasons, there is often a solution other than that.

In reply to Indy:

I agree with Tall Clare. Sex change is certainly not the same as changing orientation. A man who transgenders into a woman will probably still fancy women if she fancied women when she was a man. But one would hope that everyone would see that person not as "transgender" but as a person who is actually quite aware that there are certain things they should and shouldn't do. And anyway, if there was a non-transgender lesbian in the toilets with girls and she happened to fancy one of them, it's highly unlikely that she would just ravish them! Why should someone who's transgender be any different?

In reply to Dominicandave:

http://www.jumblejoy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/12439322_10101978773588...

In reply to newishclimber:

At the same time as I said what I said above, there is substance in what you write. Only because I know the previous life of my friend lived is quite possibly the only reason I looked at him/her as a women with mens clothes. He went to extremes to get away from everything that he/she knew before which involved moving to a shit hole like Hispanola where I was based. No person in their right mind would move to such a dangerous uncivilized dump permanently unless they had great financial backing to sit on their ass and do nothing but live above the general population, or had a teacup dream to own a cheap bar and live a beach bar for a few years for a few grand knowing it was not an investment, it would come to an end sooner rather than later. None of which he/she were. Instead her grandma who was very old offered to put herself in a home and give her inheritance of a million Canadian dollars before she died in order to get the surgery and buy a house in a land that the grandchild could live comfortably.
Now my friend went and bought a house on the beach on the north east coast of Hispanola. Got married in Canada to his long term lesbian partner before hand. Everyone thought for a long time that my friend was a guy. Hell he went out of his way to be a guy, right down to eventually just looking like a redneck honky. Now no one would have known had he not decided that this was not a big enough deal for everyone else as him, he needed recognition, and bit by bit announced to his new circle of friends that had no idea prior, that he was infact a women before hand. Now everyone knows that he was a she and is looked at as I look at him, a woman in mans clothes. The change was not enough, the recognition for the change was very much a part of this transition, and I think as a typical person THIS scenario would be played out so much more in the terms of kids being offered similar status to adults over this.

Just a thought.
I think following the US on anything is a really really bad idea. It has obviously been being dealt with very well up until now. As Tall Sarah said there are several in her step childs school and we live knowing nothing about this, which is a great sign that people are just getting on with it, finding their own way. Making a deal I feel is the wrong way maybe, is all I'm saying. Make a deal of it then it is there to be exploited.

In reply to Dominicandave:


They do.. Many go through with it, especially makes.. It is no threat..

I actually think you mean well, I don't think Indy does, but I think you are badly misreading this

In general a disappointing thread, I laughed at the U.S. Uproar and said in liberal England they will be fine with this.

You may not think it is but we are treating transgender people like we did homosexuals.. 'It's a phase' 'it's environmental' 'we can cure this'

I have a lot of hope this generation is more progressive than ours and moved on. I see my kids in my class being totally ok with the homosexual kids, who are openly gay, they are just equal members, that's now a non issue.. We need to see our kids treat transgender people the same.

Then, as people have said, if they want to go back it's no issue.

Research just came out about women's sexuality being much more fluid, we still don't fully understand sexuality and gender.

Regarding letting a kid halt sexual develpment, you yourself talk about your friends issues.. All it does is say 'wait, decide when you want' and not force a kid to go through development in the sex they don't identify with.

In reply to Indy:


I really don't think you've identified the crucial issue here.

If this is such a problem, then what the hell are we going to do about the much greater number of homosexuals who share toilets with their own gender? What might happen to my son if one his classmates is, god-forbid, gay, and they have to share a toilet or changing room. The gay lad might fancy my son and see him in his pants, or even - and I can't even bear the thought of this - he might catch a glimpse of his willy. What on earth is going to happen? How can we protect out innocent children from this outrage? What the hell is the government going to do to stop it?

Do you know what, I don't think I shall sleep at all tonight.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

This is why dislikes shouldnt be anonymous...

However I doubt Alan has the bollox to do that, he'd rather people be cowards and be anonymous..

Really disappointed in UKC and the UK in general in this thread. Just shows a lack of progression. I expected more, especially from the guys on UKC to make a stance.

In reply to Roadrunner5:
I have been tracking events in the US with interest and alarm, and some reactions in the UK are mirroring the views expressed there. I also thought that our civilised societies had progressed further than this but there is still clearly a long way to go.

In reply to Indy:


I remember on a skiing holiday where there was a single unisex room for toilets with urinals and stalls and you had to push past the urinals to get to the stalls. Luckily I managed to get out before raping or being raped, I never thought about how dangerous it was!

I remember a friend telling me about her school skiing trip when she was a young girl and there was some place with the same toilet arrangement. Being a young girl she had never seen a urinal before and somewhat unfortunately mistook it for a washbasin...

In reply to Dominicandave:

I think we're all missing the point and the article seems to have provoked over-thinking.

At the end of the day people who are transgender are people and want others to treat them in that way. Some children really do go through gender identity crises during school age and others are genuinely certain that they want to change their gender, whatever the reasons might be behind it.

It's the same with any kind of difference - if a child has been expelled from one school for being violent and then gets educated at another school, that child will probably be discriminated against by the parents but not by the other students - the ones who really matter.

Children of any age (and they're still classed as children up to the age of 18) are accepting and if anyone is going to discriminate it isn't going to be fellow students; it's going to be the parents who are either genuinely concerned or looking for opportunities to cause a fuss. But from what it says in the article the whole issue will be controlled - educators will be on hand and trained to cope with abuse if it arises and I imagine the school will be briefed as a whole to be accepting.

The issue about the UK being closed-minded or people on here being insulting or bigotted or racist etc has absolutely nothing to do with the original post and maybe it's something that we should all be mindful of.

In reply to newishclimber:
I don't agree with that, a) it's why is an issue.. People feel uncomfortable..

But b) why shouldn't threads digress into important issues and its relevancy to past racism and homophobia is very relevant and we should learn from mistakes of the past..

The key to the present/future is the past..