UKC

Hi folks,
just asking to see what is done about travelling folk when they tip up in your town, village or whatever.
I'm all for each to their own, live and let live and all that but when it has a direct negative impact on your local village life then it pees me off.

I live in a small village between Portsmouth and Southampton and every year the village up the road, Wickham, has a horse fair. Last year ended up in a mass street brawl between 2 traveller families.

About 30 travellers decided to put themselves on our village football fields during the night last week in preparation for the horse fair. To get onto the football pitch, they drove through the village car park, through the woods ripping down trees and fences, then dumped themselves in the middle of the football pitch/skate park/local playpark.

Fair enough, can't really do anything about that I suppose but since last Wednesday, they have shoplifted god knows how much stuff in the village, trashed the playpark leaving smashed bottles everywhere and trashed kids play things, left, so far after the cleanup today, 10 skips full of rubbish, destroyed the football pitch with oil changes and generally driving up and down on it.

There have been a couple of mass brawls on their site over the weekend, they have abandoned 2 cars and a caravan and the list goes on and on. There has been a constant police presence since they arrived and that hasn't stopped them at all and absolutely bugger all seems to have been done or will be done despite the massive amount of damage and destruction they have caused.

So then, what do councils up and down the country do to either prevent this or what are the reprocussions of such behaviour if any as our council doesn't seem to have a bloody clue what to do neither do the police.

Cheers, Den

In reply to Denni:

Difficult one.

Having dealt with a few issues in the past, these are my recommendations;

First try speaking nicely to the head (s) of the families about the problems.

Secondly, get 3 or 4 very large 'rescue' trucks (the sort that can pull a large aircraft off the runway in an emergency). Take said trucks and pay the visitors a second visit explaining the problems mentioned in the first attempt at negotiation.

If the above fails take said trucks and read out the relevant aviation and terrorism acts, break down the barriers and wait. Have never needed to go further than this.

So in conclusion, I recommend building an international airport next to the village.

Happy to help.

In reply to Denni:

Nothing, is the answer.

In reply to Denni:

Basically the sooner you accept that the rule of law is not uniformly applied to everyone in the UK, and the sooner you suck it up, the less stressful your life will be.

Also, lock up your chickens.

In reply to Denni:

I think you might find this link useful.

http://www.woking.gov.uk/planning/envhealthservice/control/unauthencampfaqs

For what it's worth I think you've got this pretty well summed up. Live and let live but when they're on the football pitch your community has built and maintained they need to shift.

Best of luck.

In reply to wintertree:


As someone once said;
“The mistake we made was we gave people a kind of cultural exemption from normal, reasonable, decent behaviour.”
(Trevor Phillips former head of the Equalities and Human Rights Commission.)


and your dogs.

In reply to Big Ger:


and your oil tanks

In reply to Big Ger:



Surely you mean Dags?

In reply to Denni:

It seems that you should welcome your fellow humans to your village. Maybe next year provide a tent with free beer?

Whatever you do you must not make any anti traveller demonstrations or worse still anti Local Authority for doing nothing demonstrations.

This the lovely little South Downs village of Firle found to it's cost a few years back

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2003/oct/31/race.world1

In reply to Denni:

The last time it happened in our neck of the woods they were there for about two months and the clean up bill was about £30,000. The area concerned is surrounded by berms, but they dug through those and moved a whole load of caravans, cars, lorries, skips and all the rest on to the heath.

When they had gone, the berms were reinforced with tree trunks in them.

The following summer they broke through again. The heath is covered by an Act of Parliament rather than just local byelaws. Locals heard them arriving and called the police, who did nothing. So everyone called around until there was a cluster of locals who then sat down and blocked the road, which just so happens to feed one of the main roads into London. The police tried to move them on. To which they said if the Police moved the [insert suitable term, but 'travelling folk' is too jolly for me] on, they (the protesters) would also move. They also reminded the police of their duties under the Act of Parliament prominently displayed behind them. The police said they didn't have enough men to move them on. More protesters turned up, more cars got stuck. More people started clamouring for the [ ] to be moved on. More police turned up, and it was pointed out to the police that they had more than enough people now, and that they were in dereliction of duty if they didn't move them on. Now more [ ] caravans were stuck in the traffic jam and it was all getting really chaotic, and people in the traffic jam sat down too.

At which point, the police decided it was time to move the [ ] on, and the [ ] agreed.

There is now a [ ]-watch scheme. [ ] turn up, calls get made, they get moved on before they've even started. They've not bothered coming back for a while.

Get organised

In reply to nniff:

Isn't it quaint that those in authority in this country have a policy of preserving the wonderful historic culture of [ ] whose rich heritage of anti-social behaviour, thieving, drunkeness, fighting, keeping packs of half wild dogs, trespassing, criminal damage, littering, intimidation, and defecating on private land, go back for centuries?

In reply to Denni:
5.1 The lead role in the management of Unauthorised Encampments will be with Local Authorities.
Forces should consider becoming involved in bringing about the prompt and lawful removal of unauthorised encampments, including the use of police powers under Section 61 or 62 of the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994 where:
i) Local amenities are deprived to communities or significant impact on the environment
This could include, for example, forming an encampment on any part of a recreation ground, public park, school field, village green, or depriving the public use of car parks. The fact that other sections of the community are being deprived of the amenities must be evident before action is taken.


This comes from a website supporting travellers.

Unless the police and local authorities do their job in a fair way, applying the law to all sections of society, incidents like this will continue and everyone will suffer.

Have you or the parish council contacted this team? http://www3.hants.gov.uk/propertyservices/management/estates-management-1/e...

In reply to Trangia:

It suits them to keep various groups who can be blamed and victimised.

In reply to Denni:

Consider yourself fortunate you don't live in or around Appleby!

In reply to Trangia:


To be fair to the authorities they sometimes go to far try other way. The Battle of the Beanfield wasn't a proud moment for anyone. Police allegedly beating pregnant women isn't the answer. Edit: a different travelling community, and one that was perhaps much easier to coral and attack.

The only solution I can see that has a chance of working is enforcing the law with regards their children on an equal standing to the settled population. Then there would be a stark choice between providing a minimum level of welfare of having the children taken away. Hopefully more education would change things over time.

I met a lad from our local site aged 22 with one tooth left and no school qualifications. A really nice guy who was working hard to get out of a lifestyle I couldn't beleive was going on in rural England.

That should put a stop to things. Some would call it racist and ethnic cleansing, but I think it's the other way around. By being either unwilling or unable to take sufficient action on traveller child welfare, the state is being racist against the children of the travelling community by abandoning them based on their race. Similar points could be raised about violence, particularly against women.

Christ if we raised our child in conditions like this chap I was talking to, they'd be taken away no hesitation.

In reply to Denni:

Step 1.
Acquire muck spreader & tractor

Step 2.
Fill spreader with slurry

Step 3.

Wait for a nice warm night when their windows will be open, then take your slurry for a little drive around their caravans. If the 'on' switch is accidentally flicked on the spreader, shrug and carry on...

In reply to nniff:



I got a small justice boner after reading that.

I have no issue with Traveller folk so long as they adhere to the local laws and don't leave a mess. Sadly this just never happens in my experience.

In reply to cander:


Or Newark on Trent, where I live. We have the envious accolade of having the greatest number of (now fixed) travelling folks per capita of any uk town.

They live hete permanently and still terrorise the locals.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Like I said in the other post, I taught in Newark. The travellers kids weren't the problem. They were generally pleasant and did what I asked. Possibly because I expected them to. I can't speak for the parents or the behaviour out of school, but in school the kids were treated badly and without justification. I know who damaged my car and it wasn't a traveller. I'm not saying there aren't problems with the behaviour of some travellers, and the OP certainly has reason to be aggrieved, but I've never understood how people think it's ok to be horrible to children who didn't ask to be born into particular families. I also don't understand why the councils and police perpetuate these problems by not dealing fairly and firmly with those who don't behave. I think as someone else said, they can't be bothered because it will be difficult, or they don't have the balls or the funding. I also think as I said above that it suits certain people to keep an underclass and encourage bad behaviour and division, as it keeps the eyes off what the rich are getting away with.

In reply to marsbar:


I understand there is also a problem in collecting evidence that can be used in court. The traveller community close ranks and will not co-operate with the police, give statements or evidence against their own. There is also a massive problem of intimidation and the very real threat of reprisals against any of the settled community who testify against them.

I think this is a terrible state of affairs but it would take huge resources, ongoing witness protection, guts on the part of potential witnesses and massive determination amongst those who want to see perpetrators prosecuted, bearing in mind that grudges may continue for decades, even through generations.

It's a bit like the bravery of those who took on and finally subdued the Mafia in Sicily. An awful lot of hem never lived to see the outcome.

In reply to Denni:

I f*cking hate pikes

In reply to elliott92:

so don't tell 'em your name. Stupid Boy

In reply to Denni:

Over the years, I have cleared an awful lot of traveller waste,including a lot of human waste, and met a fair number of them (and been bitten by their dog on one occasion). I don't recognise Trangia's Travelling Mafia, any more than I see a caravan of angels. They exist beyond the law because we seem to have engineered the law to ensure this. Couple this with the statutory provision that councils provide being marginal, at best, I can understand why they crop up on public open spaces and nature reserves, even though when they do, it causes all sorts of problems for the communities there. I think we also need to remember that we don't ever hear about families who aren't causing grief and heartache, so we need to be a little more self aware before we generalise too much. Oddly, Newark area was never much of a problem for me, though I know people who did have more hassle.

In reply to toad:

That is a misrepresentation of what I posted.

My post was in response to someone who was asking why the police do not come down fairly and firmly with those who misbehave?

My understanding, having discussed this with police friends, is the problems of lack of co-operation from within the traveller community and intimidation of witnesses makes the police's work very difficult if not impossible in many cases.

I was not calling the traveller community Mafia, merely pointing out that it takes a lot of guts on the part of the settled community to testify against travellers who misbehave.

Without witnesses willing to testify the police will struggle to get convictions.

My reference to the Mafia was by way of an analogy to this problem

In reply to Trangia:

"It's a bit like the bravery of those who took on and finally subdued the Mafia in Sicily. An awful lot of hem never lived to see the outcome."

I'm not sure how else to interpret this in a discussion about travellers.

FWIW, my problems with intimidation and omerta (let's keep it going) were with the settled community badger digging/ hare coursing/ sheep worrying etc - all the other fun things you can do on open land without parking a caravan on it.

In reply to Trangia:

We have a bit of a theory in the Cander household, based on some knowledge. If you get the opportunity have a look at my big fat gypsy wedding. There are a lot of awfully expensive cars floating around and we're pretty sure tarmacing drives doesn't pay for them. So where does the money come from? If I was looking for the perfect community to traffic anything illegal, the gypsy community pretty much fits the bill. No permanent roots anywhere, a transient closed community (no gypsy ever called 999 to our knowledge), self regulating, violent (50% of gypsy men do not survive beyond 50 years old was the flaky stat quoted on a documentary). The police have virtually no way in to investigate - the comparison with the mafia is actually a good one with one big difference - the mafia in Scilly targeted individuals in the community (protection money from business - type of crime), the gypsies have never done that, they do a bit of thieving but then move on, so the problem never becomes completely intolerable as the mafia did. My thoughts on the subject.

In reply to Denni:

Poison the horses. Job jobbed.

D

In reply to Trangia:

I see what you are saying but these days with cctv and so on it should be easier to prosecute without statements. It is also possible to bring in professional witnesses if necessary. I know this is a tactic that has been used by at least one council to deal with drug related problems. Not cheap but it does get results.

In reply to nniff:

I don't mind the [] so much. It's the <> that piss me off. And don't get me started on the {}.

In reply to marsbar:


But what will that actually do?
Unless you lock them up for any infraction of the law and refuse bail they will just do what they do and move on.
If you do lock them up for dumping rubbish or something else like that not only will it fill our jails but the human rights brigade will be up in arms.

In reply to Denni:

Normally on the Wirral, if you flick your fag end on the pavement, an official will fine you £80

In reply to Denni:

it's now that time of year in North Yorkshire to relock the garden shed, garage, make sure nothing is lying around the garden, tools, kids toys etc... nothing valuable in the car or visible in the house through windows.

In reply to birdie num num:


Only if you believe the "Wirral Globe" propaganda. They've never fined me once

In reply to cap'nChino:

No, it's true. My neighbour got a fine after I gave his name and address to an official. He doesn't even smoke either.

In reply to elliott92:


What about perch?

In reply to Denni:

A caravan theft in broad daylight recently marks the arrival of our local horse fair. There will be some horse thefts too in all likely hood!

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:


I'm not going to sit on the fence...