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>http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/brexit-spirit-crushing-gree...
A Tory farming minister thinks we could protect the environment 'so much more flexibly' if we weren't in the EU.
Oh, I bet we could, George, I bet we could. I think we all know what *that* means.
Bearing in mind what an utter bollix both sides are making of their campaigns so far, I seriously wonder whether they both wouldn't do better saying nothing at all.
jcm
A Tory farming minister thinks we could protect the environment 'so much more flexibly' if we weren't in the EU.
Oh, I bet we could, George, I bet we could. I think we all know what *that* means.
Bearing in mind what an utter bollix both sides are making of their campaigns so far, I seriously wonder whether they both wouldn't do better saying nothing at all.
jcm
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In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
It makes sense though;
It makes sense though;
> The weird thing is, it would make financial sense. Just to continue paying farmers the same subsidy as they are getting now would cost the British taxpayer half as much, because, at present, we pay £6 billion a year into the CAP, but our farmers get only £3 billion back. British farmers are effectively subsidising their competitors: the French, by far the biggest beneficiary of the CAP, receive three times as much.
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In reply to Big Ger:
Sure. Except that you don't for a second think the sort of UK politicians who feel most strongly about leaving actually would maintain the current payments, or really enforce higher environmental standards or employment conditions if they weren't obliged to do so by EU legislation do you?
It's about as likely as Boris Johnson spending an extra £350M a week on the NHS if we leave.
Sure. Except that you don't for a second think the sort of UK politicians who feel most strongly about leaving actually would maintain the current payments, or really enforce higher environmental standards or employment conditions if they weren't obliged to do so by EU legislation do you?
It's about as likely as Boris Johnson spending an extra £350M a week on the NHS if we leave.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
I couldn't decide if I wanted to cry or laugh after reading the comments from George Eustice. How does someone so stupid get to be an MP, let alone a minister. He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about with error after error. And it was good to hear that Boris is getting corrected by his Dad.
For anyone interested in the environmental aspects of Brexit, there's a report from the IEEP at http://www.ieep.eu/publications/2016/03/implications-of-brexit-for-uk-envir... which, at first glance, seems reasonably well written although I've yet to read it properly.
I couldn't decide if I wanted to cry or laugh after reading the comments from George Eustice. How does someone so stupid get to be an MP, let alone a minister. He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about with error after error. And it was good to hear that Boris is getting corrected by his Dad.
For anyone interested in the environmental aspects of Brexit, there's a report from the IEEP at http://www.ieep.eu/publications/2016/03/implications-of-brexit-for-uk-envir... which, at first glance, seems reasonably well written although I've yet to read it properly.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
I think they would have no option but to review the payments, and what they are paid for.
> Sure. Except that you don't for a second think the sort of UK politicians who feel most strongly about leaving actually would maintain the current payments, or really enforce higher environmental standards or employment conditions if they weren't obliged to do so by EU legislation do you?
I think they would have no option but to review the payments, and what they are paid for.
In reply to Big Ger:
Of course. That's not quite the message Mr Eustace wants to send to farmers before the vote though, is it?
> I think they would have no option but to review the payments, and what they are paid for.
Of course. That's not quite the message Mr Eustace wants to send to farmers before the vote though, is it?
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
'Except that you don't for a second think the sort of UK politicians who feel most strongly about leaving actually would maintain the current payments, or really enforce higher environmental standards or employment conditions if they weren't obliged to do so by EU legislation do you?'
What, precisely, do you think these politicians would do with our money if we did exit from the EU? We'd have more money to spend on ourselves, so they would be able to maintain current payments while having plenty left over for whatever evil purposes you imagine they wish to pursue.
'Except that you don't for a second think the sort of UK politicians who feel most strongly about leaving actually would maintain the current payments, or really enforce higher environmental standards or employment conditions if they weren't obliged to do so by EU legislation do you?'
What, precisely, do you think these politicians would do with our money if we did exit from the EU? We'd have more money to spend on ourselves, so they would be able to maintain current payments while having plenty left over for whatever evil purposes you imagine they wish to pursue.
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In reply to John2:
I doubt they'll have much problem making it disappear but I can confidently predict not much of it will be spent on pointless environmental projects.
> What, precisely, do you think these politicians would do with our money if we did exit from the EU? We'd have more money to spend on ourselves, so they would be able to maintain current payments while having plenty left over for whatever evil purposes you imagine they wish to pursue.
I doubt they'll have much problem making it disappear but I can confidently predict not much of it will be spent on pointless environmental projects.
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In reply to John2:
Given how the most vocal Brexiters are from the political right I would expect them use it to try to reduce the deficit (although most economic thinkers are saying by coming out of the EU will make the deficit worse as it will stifle growth/plunge us into recession). Are you suggesting that Boris, IDS, Gove et al will go against everything they have stood for so far and suddenly start spending any extra cash available on NHS and welfare? It's a theory, I suppose.....
What do you expect them to spend it on?
> What, precisely, do you think these politicians would do with our money if we did exit from the EU? We'd have more money to spend on ourselves, so they would be able to maintain current payments while having plenty left over for whatever evil purposes you imagine they wish to pursue.
Given how the most vocal Brexiters are from the political right I would expect them use it to try to reduce the deficit (although most economic thinkers are saying by coming out of the EU will make the deficit worse as it will stifle growth/plunge us into recession). Are you suggesting that Boris, IDS, Gove et al will go against everything they have stood for so far and suddenly start spending any extra cash available on NHS and welfare? It's a theory, I suppose.....
What do you expect them to spend it on?
Post edited at 10:52
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In reply to Tyler:
I'm sure some of it would go towards reducing the deficit (a better use for it than contributing to the monthly migration of the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg), but I struggle to understand why anyone would imagine that support for British farmers would cease. Many more traditional Conservative politicians come from country areas, and are deeply integrated into the rural lifestyle.
The UK's system for distributing EU agricultural allowances to farmers is deeply flawed, but that is not specifically a result of Conservative government.
I'm sure some of it would go towards reducing the deficit (a better use for it than contributing to the monthly migration of the European Parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg), but I struggle to understand why anyone would imagine that support for British farmers would cease. Many more traditional Conservative politicians come from country areas, and are deeply integrated into the rural lifestyle.
The UK's system for distributing EU agricultural allowances to farmers is deeply flawed, but that is not specifically a result of Conservative government.
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In reply to krikoman:
I think that was a double entendre.
I don't use them often myself but when I do I like to slip in a big one.
I think that was a double entendre.
I don't use them often myself but when I do I like to slip in a big one.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
You do realise that Brexit would not mean that Brexiteers run the country, don't you?
You do realise that Brexit would not mean that Brexiteers run the country, don't you?
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In reply to stu7jokes:
Would Cameron jump, or wait til he was pushed ? Triumphant Boris storms into No 10, second Scottish referendum and collapse of UKIP ensures a tory majority next time around.
> You do realise that Brexit would not mean that Brexiteers run the country, don't you?
Would Cameron jump, or wait til he was pushed ? Triumphant Boris storms into No 10, second Scottish referendum and collapse of UKIP ensures a tory majority next time around.
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In reply to John2:
Except that 12 months down the line, after the widely predicted fall in our GDP which would only need to be around 0.5%, we wouldn't have any extra money to spend on ourselves anyway.
Alan
> What, precisely, do you think these politicians would do with our money if we did exit from the EU? We'd have more money to spend on ourselves, so they would be able to maintain current payments while having plenty left over for whatever evil purposes you imagine they wish to pursue.
Except that 12 months down the line, after the widely predicted fall in our GDP which would only need to be around 0.5%, we wouldn't have any extra money to spend on ourselves anyway.
Alan
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In reply to maxticate:
You're right of course, I should be put to sleep, I was having it off at the time, so found it hard (fnarr fnarr) to concentrate.
> I think that was a double entendre.
> I don't use them often myself but when I do I like to slip in a big one.
You're right of course, I should be put to sleep, I was having it off at the time, so found it hard (fnarr fnarr) to concentrate.
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Haven't you heard? Brexit is going to generate an extra £111 billion http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/bexit-fantasy-economics_uk_574d538ce4b0ebf6a...
Haven't you heard? Brexit is going to generate an extra £111 billion http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/bexit-fantasy-economics_uk_574d538ce4b0ebf6a...
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Widely predicted by people put up to it by the government. Until Cameron started his surprisingly hysterical campaigning, the economic forecasts were far more divided.
Widely predicted by people put up to it by the government. Until Cameron started his surprisingly hysterical campaigning, the economic forecasts were far more divided.
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In reply to Tyler:
Call me a cynic, but I'd expect them to use the roughly 1.7% of total UK Government expenditure which would no longer be sent to the EU to be used fund generous tax cuts for those who have exhausted all other legal mechanisms for reducing their liabilities to HMRC.
> Given how the most vocal Brexiters are from the political right I would expect them use it to try to reduce the deficit (although most economic thinkers are saying by coming out of the EU will make the deficit worse as it will stifle growth/plunge us into recession). Are you suggesting that Boris, IDS, Gove et al will go against everything they have stood for so far and suddenly start spending any extra cash available on NHS and welfare? It's a theory, I suppose.....
> What do you expect them to spend it on?
Call me a cynic, but I'd expect them to use the roughly 1.7% of total UK Government expenditure which would no longer be sent to the EU to be used fund generous tax cuts for those who have exhausted all other legal mechanisms for reducing their liabilities to HMRC.
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In reply to John2:
Yes, that is the easy answer to these inconvenient forecasts.
Here is something I found elsewhere, not mine but worth a read:
Just thought I£d do some looking into headlines around that highly politicised left wing Remain conspiracy.
EU referendum: TUC says Leave vote would hit wages
Yep, Left wing bastards. Oh hang on..
Leaving EU would cause a serious shock to UK economy - CBI
Right wing bastards. Curious, still there's always the IFS, accepted by the Brexit camp as highly independent.
EU exit could add years to austerity, IFS says
Well, that wasn't very independent of them after all was it? Perhaps the IMF has a less politicised view:
IMF: EU exit could cause severe damage
Surely the WTO isn't politicised too?
World Trade Organisation adds new warning on economic cost of Brexit
Crikey, when did all these organisations join the left wing conspiracy? There must be some balance out there?
EU referendum polls: 'Remarkable' anti-Brexit consensus among economists
Looks like there isn£t any after all. Perhaps it isn't such a good idea? We should though be able to rely on the London Business School as the counter balance to the Commie LSE to support your case?
Britain faces disruption if it leaves the EU - London Business School
Bloody hell. Maybe it's not so much a politicised view as a consensus. Knock me down. Still, we can always trade with the Empire:
Brexit: Julie Bishop tells British PM David Cameron change 'not in Australia's interests'
Aussies not so keen after all. Well, we did beat them in the Ashes. Let's see what Canada thinks.
Canada urges Britain to stay in the EU
After all we've done for them too. Well, if we can£t rely on the Empire, good job the major Asian economies are queuing up to trade with us.
Why Brexit would create tangible problems for Asia - The China Post
And did the China Post really go on to say -
British Prime Minister David Cameron said that would be a mistake. So did United States President Barack Obama and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, their sentiments echoed by the leadership in China and India. Across Asia, which does not relish the prospect of a "Brexit," the common sentiment is to ask why so many Britons are daft enough to want it, even as the negative consequences stare them in the face.
So, it's not a good idea, the Empire isn't interested nor the major Asian economies. How can that be the case if Boris has been assuring us of the opposite?
I think I can help you out here though
EU referendum: Donald Trump backs Brexit
Sound judgement from a well balanced individual at last. But surely we need more?
Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit
There you go.
Vladimir Putin wants Britain to vote for Brexit
At least he's not a highly politicised left winger. What's he got to gain?
Thank god for balance...
> Widely predicted by people put up to it by the government. Until Cameron started his surprisingly hysterical campaigning, the economic forecasts were far more divided.
Yes, that is the easy answer to these inconvenient forecasts.
Here is something I found elsewhere, not mine but worth a read:
Just thought I£d do some looking into headlines around that highly politicised left wing Remain conspiracy.
EU referendum: TUC says Leave vote would hit wages
Yep, Left wing bastards. Oh hang on..
Leaving EU would cause a serious shock to UK economy - CBI
Right wing bastards. Curious, still there's always the IFS, accepted by the Brexit camp as highly independent.
EU exit could add years to austerity, IFS says
Well, that wasn't very independent of them after all was it? Perhaps the IMF has a less politicised view:
IMF: EU exit could cause severe damage
Surely the WTO isn't politicised too?
World Trade Organisation adds new warning on economic cost of Brexit
Crikey, when did all these organisations join the left wing conspiracy? There must be some balance out there?
EU referendum polls: 'Remarkable' anti-Brexit consensus among economists
Looks like there isn£t any after all. Perhaps it isn't such a good idea? We should though be able to rely on the London Business School as the counter balance to the Commie LSE to support your case?
Britain faces disruption if it leaves the EU - London Business School
Bloody hell. Maybe it's not so much a politicised view as a consensus. Knock me down. Still, we can always trade with the Empire:
Brexit: Julie Bishop tells British PM David Cameron change 'not in Australia's interests'
Aussies not so keen after all. Well, we did beat them in the Ashes. Let's see what Canada thinks.
Canada urges Britain to stay in the EU
After all we've done for them too. Well, if we can£t rely on the Empire, good job the major Asian economies are queuing up to trade with us.
Why Brexit would create tangible problems for Asia - The China Post
And did the China Post really go on to say -
British Prime Minister David Cameron said that would be a mistake. So did United States President Barack Obama and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, their sentiments echoed by the leadership in China and India. Across Asia, which does not relish the prospect of a "Brexit," the common sentiment is to ask why so many Britons are daft enough to want it, even as the negative consequences stare them in the face.
So, it's not a good idea, the Empire isn't interested nor the major Asian economies. How can that be the case if Boris has been assuring us of the opposite?
I think I can help you out here though
EU referendum: Donald Trump backs Brexit
Sound judgement from a well balanced individual at last. But surely we need more?
Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit
There you go.
Vladimir Putin wants Britain to vote for Brexit
At least he's not a highly politicised left winger. What's he got to gain?
Thank god for balance...
Post edited at 18:52
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Could you please change the site so I can Like that post lots of times? Pretty please?
Could you please change the site so I can Like that post lots of times? Pretty please?
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
A former senior International Monetary Fund economist says the arguments that leaving the EU would cause permanent damage to the UK are not supported by evidence.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-referendum-why-the-econo...
Just to add a bit of balance.
A former senior International Monetary Fund economist says the arguments that leaving the EU would cause permanent damage to the UK are not supported by evidence.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-referendum-why-the-econo...
Just to add a bit of balance.
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
The first thing to bear in mind about the economic consequences of Brexit is that no one at all really knows what would happen - people are just giving their opinions (some of which are heavily coloured by their personal interests).
The second thing to bear in mind is that many of those currently prophesying doom and gloom if we leave are the same people who were convinced that we should join the euro.
Let's trade headlines -
EU referendum: TUC says Leave vote would hit wages (note there's nothing here about the economic interests of the nation as a whole).
RMT union calls for members to vote for Brexit
Leaving EU would cause a serious shock to UK economy - CBI
Lord Howard likens CBI's economic predictions to those of an astrologer as he reiterates call for Brexit
EU exit could add years to austerity, IFS says
EU referendum: Leave campaigners claim IFS study warning of Brexit Impact is 'propaganda'
IMF: EU exit could cause severe damage
A former senior International Monetary Fund economist says the arguments that leaving the EU would cause permanent damage to the UK are not supported by evidence
World Trade Organisation adds new warning on economic cost of Brexit
WTO chief's ludicrous assertion on Brexit, tariffs and trade
EU referendum polls: 'Remarkable' anti-Brexit consensus among economists
Leave campaign hits back with its own economists
Britain faces disruption if it leaves the EU - London Business School
UK could need interest rate cuts even if voters shun Brexit, admits Bank of England official
Brexit: Julie Bishop tells British PM David Cameron change 'not in Australia's interests'
What the f*ck do Australia have to do with it? (That wasn't a printed headline, for those in doubt)
Canada urges Britain to stay in the EU
I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer
Why Brexit would create tangible problems for Asia - The China Post
Ditto
EU referendum: Donald Trump backs Brexit
Now there you have me
Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit
The National Front is pushing the immigration argument, but in my opinion the important arguments are to do with economics and sovereignty
Vladimir Putin wants Britain to vote for Brexit
Because he's pissed off by the sanctions imposed by the EU after he invaded Ukraine
The first thing to bear in mind about the economic consequences of Brexit is that no one at all really knows what would happen - people are just giving their opinions (some of which are heavily coloured by their personal interests).
The second thing to bear in mind is that many of those currently prophesying doom and gloom if we leave are the same people who were convinced that we should join the euro.
Let's trade headlines -
EU referendum: TUC says Leave vote would hit wages (note there's nothing here about the economic interests of the nation as a whole).
RMT union calls for members to vote for Brexit
Leaving EU would cause a serious shock to UK economy - CBI
Lord Howard likens CBI's economic predictions to those of an astrologer as he reiterates call for Brexit
EU exit could add years to austerity, IFS says
EU referendum: Leave campaigners claim IFS study warning of Brexit Impact is 'propaganda'
IMF: EU exit could cause severe damage
A former senior International Monetary Fund economist says the arguments that leaving the EU would cause permanent damage to the UK are not supported by evidence
World Trade Organisation adds new warning on economic cost of Brexit
WTO chief's ludicrous assertion on Brexit, tariffs and trade
EU referendum polls: 'Remarkable' anti-Brexit consensus among economists
Leave campaign hits back with its own economists
Britain faces disruption if it leaves the EU - London Business School
UK could need interest rate cuts even if voters shun Brexit, admits Bank of England official
Brexit: Julie Bishop tells British PM David Cameron change 'not in Australia's interests'
What the f*ck do Australia have to do with it? (That wasn't a printed headline, for those in doubt)
Canada urges Britain to stay in the EU
I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer
Why Brexit would create tangible problems for Asia - The China Post
Ditto
EU referendum: Donald Trump backs Brexit
Now there you have me
Marine Le Pen to campaign for Brexit
The National Front is pushing the immigration argument, but in my opinion the important arguments are to do with economics and sovereignty
Vladimir Putin wants Britain to vote for Brexit
Because he's pissed off by the sanctions imposed by the EU after he invaded Ukraine
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In reply to Chris the Tall:
I like your thinking!!!
> Would Cameron jump, or wait til he was pushed ? Triumphant Boris storms into No 10, second Scottish referendum and collapse of UKIP ensures a tory majority next time around.
I like your thinking!!!
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In reply to Big Ger:
We leave the EU, Cameron hangs on while the economy crashes (as predicted) for a couple of years, in which time the Tories have torn themselves apart, but the recovery starts just before the next General Election, and Labour sweep into power with a landslide victory (or if we're that desperate, in coalition with the Lib-Dems).
The future's bright, the future's Red!
> Would Cameron jump, or wait til he was pushed ? Triumphant Boris storms into No 10, second Scottish referendum and collapse of UKIP ensures a tory majority next time around.
> I like your thinking!!!
We leave the EU, Cameron hangs on while the economy crashes (as predicted) for a couple of years, in which time the Tories have torn themselves apart, but the recovery starts just before the next General Election, and Labour sweep into power with a landslide victory (or if we're that desperate, in coalition with the Lib-Dems).
The future's bright, the future's Red!
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In reply to Lusk:
That would be my preferred option.
> We leave the EU, Cameron hangs on while the economy crashes (as predicted) for a couple of years, in which time the Tories have torn themselves apart, but the recovery starts just before the next General Election, and Labour sweep into power with a landslide victory (or if we're that desperate, in coalition with the Lib-Dems).
That would be my preferred option.
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