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So I was at the crag the other day, and my partner got really ill and basically slept for 6 hours - leaving me with no partner. I ended up soloing some easy climbs so as not to waste a day at the crag. I was wondering if there are any systems where I could've set up a safe (but not necessarily easy to use) top-rope solo with only the equipment I'd carry for leading?
The one I came up with (but didn't try), was to set up a solid anchor, then leave two ropes hanging off the route. I would then attach myself to each rope separately using a clove hitch (or other suitable hitch) with a locking carabiner (probably Grivel mega-twingate), and then at each hands-off point on the route, I'd re-attach one of the clove hitches higher up the rope, alternating as I go so as to reduce the fall distance. Obviously there'd be no way I could safely use this sytem on a climb where I didn't get often hands-free rests.
Here's a sketch incase what I wrote wasn't clear: http://oi66.tinypic.com/2j5cv4h.jpg
Edit: looking at the sketch it seems there's nothing stopping me from moving both clove hitches up each time.
Anyone ever done something like this before and can suggest something tried and tested?
Post edited at 11:37
In reply to SenzuBean:
I've used a gri gri for solo aid leading in the past, works just fine with an upwards pulling anchor. Don't see any reason why you couldn't use it for toprope solo.
I've used a gri gri for solo aid leading in the past, works just fine with an upwards pulling anchor. Don't see any reason why you couldn't use it for toprope solo.
In reply to SenzuBean:
You can use an ATC Guide / Reverso as an ascender, so should be possible to do something with that. With suitable back ups obviously.
You can use an ATC Guide / Reverso as an ascender, so should be possible to do something with that. With suitable back ups obviously.
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In reply to Baron Weasel:
I don't carry a gri gri (I should've mentioned)
> I've used a gri gri for solo aid leading in the past, works just fine with an upwards pulling anchor. Don't see any reason why you couldn't use it for toprope solo.
I don't carry a gri gri (I should've mentioned)
In reply to AlanLittle:
In guide mode yeah? And backups being some clove hitches?
> You can use an ATC Guide / Reverso as an ascender, so should be possible to do something with that. With suitable back ups obviously.
In guide mode yeah? And backups being some clove hitches?
In reply to AlanLittle:
Bingo. The key to whichever system or tool one chooses is a solid belay, edge protection and an appropriate backup plus a plan for getting back down.
Alternatives (some more secure than others... remember the backup) are:
Knotted rope and a couple of screwgates. Clip into the loops as you climb.
Alpine clutch (or guide plate) at the top, pull the feeder/haul rope down as you go up.
Prusik loop(s)
GriGri type device
Ascender device (if your cragging rack is ridiculous)
jk
> You can use an ATC Guide / Reverso as an ascender, so should be possible to do something with that. With suitable back ups obviously.
Bingo. The key to whichever system or tool one chooses is a solid belay, edge protection and an appropriate backup plus a plan for getting back down.
Alternatives (some more secure than others... remember the backup) are:
Knotted rope and a couple of screwgates. Clip into the loops as you climb.
Alpine clutch (or guide plate) at the top, pull the feeder/haul rope down as you go up.
Prusik loop(s)
GriGri type device
Ascender device (if your cragging rack is ridiculous)
jk
Post edited at 12:09
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In reply to SenzuBean:
Tie an alpine butterfly/fig8/overhand every 2 metres into your climbing rope, then drop it down the route. Put two slings with lockers on your harness, and as you climb, clip these into the loops on the rope. Clip one at a time, so you're always attached with at least one sling. And when you fall, watch out for rope stretch.
Tie an alpine butterfly/fig8/overhand every 2 metres into your climbing rope, then drop it down the route. Put two slings with lockers on your harness, and as you climb, clip these into the loops on the rope. Clip one at a time, so you're always attached with at least one sling. And when you fall, watch out for rope stretch.
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In reply to SenzuBean:
One weekend I was desperate for some outdoor climbing before I owned a Petzl Basic - what I now use for top rope solos. I fixed a dynamic rope to a solid anchor on the top and placed an alpine butterfly at regular intervals of 1m or so along the rope.
I climbed with two lanyards on my harness, reaching for a top loop (easily clipped one handed) and unclipping the lower one alternatively (like a via ferrata) so you have backup in case you miss or slip while you clip the top loop. You don't have to clip each loop, only where you find a comfortable place but you will take a longer fall unlike a shunt/basic that minimizes the slack as you climb. If you expect taking many falls, protect the edge as the rope will wear along the same spot.
One weekend I was desperate for some outdoor climbing before I owned a Petzl Basic - what I now use for top rope solos. I fixed a dynamic rope to a solid anchor on the top and placed an alpine butterfly at regular intervals of 1m or so along the rope.
I climbed with two lanyards on my harness, reaching for a top loop (easily clipped one handed) and unclipping the lower one alternatively (like a via ferrata) so you have backup in case you miss or slip while you clip the top loop. You don't have to clip each loop, only where you find a comfortable place but you will take a longer fall unlike a shunt/basic that minimizes the slack as you climb. If you expect taking many falls, protect the edge as the rope will wear along the same spot.
In reply to jkarran:
> Knotted rope and a couple of screwgates. Clip into the loops as you climb.
This seems more or less equivalent to what I suggested, except that you "pay the cost" of knot faff before you climb, rather than during - which should mean you can climb harder stuff with it. And if you need to abseil - you're going to have a lot of fun untying all of those knots.> Alpine clutch (or guide plate) at the top, pull the feeder/haul rope down as you go up.
I like that idea of using a guide plate. The backup could be a clove hitch on the dead rope and shifting that up periodically (a backup for if the guide plate doesn't lock off). In reply to Root1:
Both are simple solutions that will work if used reasonably (not abused egregiously). Either way I thought I was very clear about using an *appropriate* backup.
jk
Both are simple solutions that will work if used reasonably (not abused egregiously). Either way I thought I was very clear about using an *appropriate* backup.
jk
In reply to Root1:
They do in Petzl's "how not to die when lowering off dodgy gear" method. Although I must say I regard that more as a desperate last resort than something I would do voluntarily.
http://www.ascenttraining.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Lowering-of-a-si...
> Prussik loops will not take a dynamic load I doubt an Alpine clutch will too.
They do in Petzl's "how not to die when lowering off dodgy gear" method. Although I must say I regard that more as a desperate last resort than something I would do voluntarily.
http://www.ascenttraining.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Lowering-of-a-si...
Post edited at 13:25
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In reply to SenzuBean:
Here you go:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/press.php?id=8430
Maybe before long we will all be able to prowl around single pitch crags temporarily installing these at the top of any climb we fancy, then taking it home with us at the end of the day. Might abolish bottom roping completely?
Here you go:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/press.php?id=8430
Maybe before long we will all be able to prowl around single pitch crags temporarily installing these at the top of any climb we fancy, then taking it home with us at the end of the day. Might abolish bottom roping completely?
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In reply to SenzuBean:
Petzl recommend these systems for double ropes:
https://www.petzl.com/US/EN/Sport/Setting-up-a-self-belay-system-on-two-rop...
And this system for single rope:
https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Installation-on-one-single-rope-with-two-...
I use a Petzl ascender backed up by a Petzl micro-traxion on a single 10.5 rope which works well for me. Interestingly Petzl don't recommend using a Shunt for self belaying.
Petzl recommend these systems for double ropes:
https://www.petzl.com/US/EN/Sport/Setting-up-a-self-belay-system-on-two-rop...
And this system for single rope:
https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Installation-on-one-single-rope-with-two-...
I use a Petzl ascender backed up by a Petzl micro-traxion on a single 10.5 rope which works well for me. Interestingly Petzl don't recommend using a Shunt for self belaying.
Post edited at 13:49
In reply to Trangia:
Thanks!
When I saw the new Wild Country Revo belay device, I did first wonder if it was a lightweight version of one of these. Surely there's got to be a portable one.
> Here you go:
> Maybe before long we will all be able to prowl around single pitch crags temporarily installing these at the top of any climb we fancy, then taking it home with us at the end of the day. Might abolish bottom roping completely?
Thanks!
When I saw the new Wild Country Revo belay device, I did first wonder if it was a lightweight version of one of these. Surely there's got to be a portable one.
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In reply to Christheclimber:
Thanks - but I don't carry those items with me normally, my post was more about improvising a top-rope solo system from a trad lead rack rather than buying special gear.
Thanks - but I don't carry those items with me normally, my post was more about improvising a top-rope solo system from a trad lead rack rather than buying special gear.
In reply to Removed Userbennett_leather:
Cheers. Yeah if I did (I'm not enjoying the thought of tying that many knots!) I'd use rope lanyards to be clipping them.
> If you do the knot method beware of the fall factor if you fall near the top
Cheers. Yeah if I did (I'm not enjoying the thought of tying that many knots!) I'd use rope lanyards to be clipping them.
In reply to SenzuBean:
I've used the prusik technique before and it's worked well.
Some may have doubts as to the ability of the knot to catch a dynamic fall, but I have never had an issue and always back it up with an alpine butterfly every metre or so anyway.
I also always make sure that I climb easy stuff well within my limits, and move the prusik up after every move. If you do fall off, it's more like weighting the rope, rather than taking a fall
I've used the prusik technique before and it's worked well.
Some may have doubts as to the ability of the knot to catch a dynamic fall, but I have never had an issue and always back it up with an alpine butterfly every metre or so anyway.
I also always make sure that I climb easy stuff well within my limits, and move the prusik up after every move. If you do fall off, it's more like weighting the rope, rather than taking a fall
In reply to SenzuBean:
If you pre tie knots then pay extra care for the rope rubbing against the rock, you don't need a sharp edge to cut a rope if there's a knot in it so if say one of your knots contacts a flat slab of rock every time you fall then within a few falls you could easily have rubbed the sheath away at the part where the knot creates a tight twist in the rope. i.e. tie a knot in a rope and then rub the curve of the knot against a bit of rock with 80kg of weight repeatedly and you'll soon be through it. Another good reason for having a second unweighted rope as a backup.
If you pre tie knots then pay extra care for the rope rubbing against the rock, you don't need a sharp edge to cut a rope if there's a knot in it so if say one of your knots contacts a flat slab of rock every time you fall then within a few falls you could easily have rubbed the sheath away at the part where the knot creates a tight twist in the rope. i.e. tie a knot in a rope and then rub the curve of the knot against a bit of rock with 80kg of weight repeatedly and you'll soon be through it. Another good reason for having a second unweighted rope as a backup.
Post edited at 16:56
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In reply to SenzuBean:
Okay, just thinking out loud here so please don't take this as advice:
So you could attach your belay device to both sides of a top rope (just like you do when you abseil), and then use a prussik around both rope loops and back to your harness as your backup (just like a normal abseil).
I don't think the prussik has to hold a dynamic fall as it's belay device that catches the fall, the prussik is just stopping the rope run free through the belay device.
Now I did wonder if the prussik is attached to your leg loop if this in itself could cause any issues during a fall, but I think as long as you pull the prussik up on a regular basis like someone else said it's more like weighting a top rope than falling.
And I suppose you could put a simple overhand on a bite in the rope a few metres up as a backup, so even if you did fall you wouldn't deck. It might be a bit annoying if you had to abseil back down once you completed the climb but it wouldn't take too long to untie.
And I guess finally you would pick a route without too many big ledges or other things to hit.
Okay, just thinking out loud here so please don't take this as advice:
So you could attach your belay device to both sides of a top rope (just like you do when you abseil), and then use a prussik around both rope loops and back to your harness as your backup (just like a normal abseil).
I don't think the prussik has to hold a dynamic fall as it's belay device that catches the fall, the prussik is just stopping the rope run free through the belay device.
Now I did wonder if the prussik is attached to your leg loop if this in itself could cause any issues during a fall, but I think as long as you pull the prussik up on a regular basis like someone else said it's more like weighting a top rope than falling.
And I suppose you could put a simple overhand on a bite in the rope a few metres up as a backup, so even if you did fall you wouldn't deck. It might be a bit annoying if you had to abseil back down once you completed the climb but it wouldn't take too long to untie.
And I guess finally you would pick a route without too many big ledges or other things to hit.
In reply to SenzuBean:
I used to use a prussic knot on a fixed line to solo.(Skint school kid in the 80s) I made the mistake fixing the line into a piece of gear at the bottom rather than weighted. It was a seldom visited crag near my home high up on a hillside. I fell off mid overhang and ended up trapped in mid air. I was really lucky that by chance a couple had decided to climb there that day and got me off when they arrived.
I used to use a prussic knot on a fixed line to solo.(Skint school kid in the 80s) I made the mistake fixing the line into a piece of gear at the bottom rather than weighted. It was a seldom visited crag near my home high up on a hillside. I fell off mid overhang and ended up trapped in mid air. I was really lucky that by chance a couple had decided to climb there that day and got me off when they arrived.
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In reply to springfall2008:
he should buy the right kit for the job
when he gets bored he can sell it on here
it's not actually that much fun
stole this from the needlesport webpage - sums it up
'Colin Kirkus to Alf Bridge on the summit of Sgurr Alasdair:
"You know Alf, going to the right place at the right time,
with the right people is all that really matters.
What one does is purely incidental."
he should buy the right kit for the job
when he gets bored he can sell it on here
it's not actually that much fun
stole this from the needlesport webpage - sums it up
'Colin Kirkus to Alf Bridge on the summit of Sgurr Alasdair:
"You know Alf, going to the right place at the right time,
with the right people is all that really matters.
What one does is purely incidental."
In reply to John Kelly:
Thats all very subjective. Petzl Et al want everyone to believe that to ascend, two pusiks isnt safe, two shiny ascenders at £50 a pop is the only safe option.
To top rope solo they want you to use a micro tractraction with an ascender, backed up with a shunt and a gri gri.
There is no such thing as the 'right kit'. Only a variety of option, but with safety/redundancy always in mind.
The OP has been clear that he wants to safely utilise his existing rack, and thats absolutely possible. Safely, with back up.
> he should buy the right kit for the job
Thats all very subjective. Petzl Et al want everyone to believe that to ascend, two pusiks isnt safe, two shiny ascenders at £50 a pop is the only safe option.
To top rope solo they want you to use a micro tractraction with an ascender, backed up with a shunt and a gri gri.
There is no such thing as the 'right kit'. Only a variety of option, but with safety/redundancy always in mind.
The OP has been clear that he wants to safely utilise his existing rack, and thats absolutely possible. Safely, with back up.
In reply to ogreville:
no idea what your 'subjective' comment means
i wouldnt use prussiks personally, dim memory of it being frowned on in eighties, therefore happy to avoid and so wouldn't recommend to 3rd party
the good folk at petzl tell me my trusty shunt will likely kill me at the drop of a hat - so that's out
the modern equivalent, traxions or similar are tried, trusted and rated for this activity so if i wanted to start doing this now i would try to get a hold of one
(the right kit - tried and tested, rated for job)
in good old days, back ups were not considered sporting, today they are rightly considered just the ticket, a second device is a great idea
no where does anyone suggest using more than 2 units - the americans even stack em on one rope!
no idea what your 'subjective' comment means
i wouldnt use prussiks personally, dim memory of it being frowned on in eighties, therefore happy to avoid and so wouldn't recommend to 3rd party
the good folk at petzl tell me my trusty shunt will likely kill me at the drop of a hat - so that's out
the modern equivalent, traxions or similar are tried, trusted and rated for this activity so if i wanted to start doing this now i would try to get a hold of one
(the right kit - tried and tested, rated for job)
in good old days, back ups were not considered sporting, today they are rightly considered just the ticket, a second device is a great idea
no where does anyone suggest using more than 2 units - the americans even stack em on one rope!
In reply to John Kelly:
In saying that it's all subjective, my thinking is that there are always several ways to skin a cat. Yes, there is always the piece of kit designed for a very specific purpose, but there all always more old school, cheaper solutions available to those without the cash to purchase them. No less safe that the new, more convenient kit.
My original post suggested a prusik, backed up with periodic knots. I've also seen others use similar setups and it's perfectly safe (I don't have a certificate from Petzl to say this, but then I don't have one telling me how to tie a figure of 8 or put my shoes on).
If a prusik was to slip (never happened to me though), that's what the back-up knots are for. I also recommended that the OP climb well within their ability and move the prusik up as often as possible to stop heavy shock loading in the event of a fall.
This is why I suggest back-up knots and a sensible approach to route choice and knowing ones limits etc. We all take risks, scrambling, unroped up to crags etc, it's all part of the game
> no idea what your 'subjective' comment means
In saying that it's all subjective, my thinking is that there are always several ways to skin a cat. Yes, there is always the piece of kit designed for a very specific purpose, but there all always more old school, cheaper solutions available to those without the cash to purchase them. No less safe that the new, more convenient kit.
> i wouldnt use prussiks personally, dim memory of it being frowned on in eighties, therefore happy to avoid and so wouldn't recommend to 3rd party
My original post suggested a prusik, backed up with periodic knots. I've also seen others use similar setups and it's perfectly safe (I don't have a certificate from Petzl to say this, but then I don't have one telling me how to tie a figure of 8 or put my shoes on).
If a prusik was to slip (never happened to me though), that's what the back-up knots are for. I also recommended that the OP climb well within their ability and move the prusik up as often as possible to stop heavy shock loading in the event of a fall.
> in good old days, back ups were not considered sporting, today they are rightly considered just the ticket, a second device is a great idea
This is why I suggest back-up knots and a sensible approach to route choice and knowing ones limits etc. We all take risks, scrambling, unroped up to crags etc, it's all part of the game
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In reply to ogreville:
Having messed about with various systems I think the newer kit is a big improvement, slides easily up rope, reduces length of fall, and I think this constitutes an objective difference?
Prussiks - good luck, can't imagine how bad I would feel contemplating a fall onto a prussik if I was anything like a significant distance off the floor
Risk - certainly involved but I think it could be reduced by spending a few quid
Apologies to OP for drifting off topic, essentially I think you should get best kit possible for this fairly committing activity, other systems are possible but I understand are more prone to fail
Having messed about with various systems I think the newer kit is a big improvement, slides easily up rope, reduces length of fall, and I think this constitutes an objective difference?
Prussiks - good luck, can't imagine how bad I would feel contemplating a fall onto a prussik if I was anything like a significant distance off the floor
Risk - certainly involved but I think it could be reduced by spending a few quid
Apologies to OP for drifting off topic, essentially I think you should get best kit possible for this fairly committing activity, other systems are possible but I understand are more prone to fail
Post edited at 06:17
In reply to ogreville:
I'm sorry but I think you're talking crap. Of course prusiks are safe for ascending - where have Petzl suggested otherwise? But they're slow and laborious. you'd have to be very masochistic, and have a very patient partner, to follow an El Cap big wall on prusiks instead of jumars. Sometimes it makes sense to use a proper tool for the job.
And in any case we're not talking about ascending, we're talking about self-belaying. When you're ascending you have no worries about whether the prusik will bite or slide when loaded dynamically.
> Thats all very subjective. Petzl Et al want everyone to believe that to ascend, two pusiks isnt safe, two shiny ascenders at £50 a pop is the only safe option.
I'm sorry but I think you're talking crap. Of course prusiks are safe for ascending - where have Petzl suggested otherwise? But they're slow and laborious. you'd have to be very masochistic, and have a very patient partner, to follow an El Cap big wall on prusiks instead of jumars. Sometimes it makes sense to use a proper tool for the job.
And in any case we're not talking about ascending, we're talking about self-belaying. When you're ascending you have no worries about whether the prusik will bite or slide when loaded dynamically.
Post edited at 06:42
In reply to John Kelly:
No worries - it's good to have opinions even if they're contrary. I would definitely prefer to use kit designed for ascending, but as I mentioned with my OP - it was a total surprise that I was partnerless for the day. As I tend to get to climbing trips with at least one public transport leg, I don't have the luxury of carrying loads of stuff, and camping + leading kit is already exploding my bags and back.
There also seems to be two "camps" of top-rope soloers. Those who are red-pointing and happy to fall multiple times in a session, and those who basically want some protection on a climb that would be one notch too risky to solo without a rope.
Anyway I'll have a play in the tree in the garden and see what works.
Thanks for all the help so far everyone.
> Having messed about with various systems I think the newer kit is a big improvement, slides easily up rope, reduces length of fall, and I think this constitutes an objective difference?
> Prussiks - good luck, can't imagine how bad I would feel contemplating a fall onto a prussik if I was anything like a significant distance off the floor
> Risk - certainly involved but I think it could be reduced by spending a few quid
> Apologies to OP for drifting off topic, essentially I think you should get best kit possible for this fairly committing activity, other systems are possible but I understand are more prone to fail
No worries - it's good to have opinions even if they're contrary. I would definitely prefer to use kit designed for ascending, but as I mentioned with my OP - it was a total surprise that I was partnerless for the day. As I tend to get to climbing trips with at least one public transport leg, I don't have the luxury of carrying loads of stuff, and camping + leading kit is already exploding my bags and back.
There also seems to be two "camps" of top-rope soloers. Those who are red-pointing and happy to fall multiple times in a session, and those who basically want some protection on a climb that would be one notch too risky to solo without a rope.
Anyway I'll have a play in the tree in the garden and see what works.
Thanks for all the help so far everyone.
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In reply to SenzuBean:
I use an Edelrid Megajul belay device which is autolocking on single or twin ropes. I use this for top roping, hands off abseiling, cleaning routes etc. without back up - it really isn't needed. It's the best belay device I've ever seen. Super lightweight, multifunctional, cheap.
I use an Edelrid Megajul belay device which is autolocking on single or twin ropes. I use this for top roping, hands off abseiling, cleaning routes etc. without back up - it really isn't needed. It's the best belay device I've ever seen. Super lightweight, multifunctional, cheap.
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