UKC

Who knows?
We climb (used to).
We solo (Used to)'
We run it out (Used to).
It's an amazing thing isn't it, floating up a piece of rock unencumbered by ropes and gear. But it really should (underlined) only be for the benefit & joy of the soloist.
I met Alex Honnold - he was charming and humble - I also climbed with Neil 'Noddy' Molnar, 'Dirty Derek' Hersey and Phil 'Jimmy' Jewell and Paul 'Me dad' Williams - all dead from silly, unnecessary solo falls!
Chris Hamper - top UK climber in the 80's says "If a climber dies soloing then people will say at least he died doing what he loved". What? Spearing in from a great height?
Do we suggest to friends to wind it back ... or not intrude?
Answers on the back of a fifty ...
Cheers,
AP.

In reply to AP Melbourne:
What would you have done if someone had told you to 'wind it in' when you were in your prime?
I'm not really a soloist but do sometimes do a circuit of easy stuff at Stanage or do the odd route with no gear. If someone offered that sort of advice id probably tell them to f*ck off, and I think you would have done too

This thread is looking at whether people should solo, then your other thread is criticising Alex Megos for not getting on some hard, dangerous trad.
You sure you're not employed by UKC for clickbait?

In reply to AP Melbourne:

I have. I was climbing at Froggatt with a mate, who attempted to solo Chequers Buttress, he was struggling with the long reach to the arete and I shouted at him til he backed off.

But he didn't make a habit of soloing routes, so we never had the other kind of "discussion".

In reply to AP Melbourne:

Fair point about the winding it in bit deacondeacon but I speak from experience. We urged a mate not to go soloing in the pass on a miserable day - we were off to the seaside. He slipped off from 60' ... Splat! Wooden box, such a waste. His ashes were popped in to some pockets on his favourite traverse at Stoney (nice touch I thought) so he was 'with us' over the winter training.
Tongue was in cheek re master Megos on the other thread - maximum respect to the lad (and no, I'm not employed for clickbait, pity you and the other dislikers took it that way).
Be well,
Cheers,
Andy (bored, slightly bitter & twisted but luvin' life here in 'sunny Australia' ha! Two degrees this morning and degging it down).

In reply to AP Melbourne:


But Andy, Jimmy Jewel died falling off a climb he could have done backwards in his sleep. If you were to have suggested to him that he 'wind it in' before he went up that, he would rightly have laughed.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Sort of what I was (badly) attempting to say Rob. Had I been in the cafe at Tremadog that day when Jim was bored and went soloing I'd've suggested probably he shouldn't. Sad. Just plain f*ckn sad.

In reply to AP Melbourne:
Hi Andy, lovely warm sunny morning here in Froggatt, you're in the wrong country mate!

Back to the OP, what about all the guys who never returned to carry on drinking in the Byron? Should there have been a conversation with them to say "stop mate"? I'm not sure how that would have gone down. What about the skinny kid in ballet tights soloing barefoot at Millstone back in the day?
I also think that there's soloing, and there's Soloing. I mean, it's common on a weekday summer's evening after work to see loads of people working their way along Stanage and Burbage with just a chalk bag and boots, soloing routes as they go. Jerry in the Pass, or Ron on a hundred extremes is the same for their standards. I think what you are talking about is saying "stop mate" when someone's going to do something stupid, which is a different thing.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Hi Paul,
Yeah, the doing something silly bit and please shut up about the warmth - am freezin' me t*ts off.
Think this thread's gone slightly pear-shaped so'll go away again coz I totally 'got' the thrill of facing death from a great height back in the day, just being nostalgic and hoping everyone's safe and well I suppose. Even people I don't know.

In reply to AP Melbourne:

I have often thought something similar to the mountaineers I have known down the years who went away and never came back, Pete Boadman, Al Rouse, Joe Tasker etc.

"Better one day as a Tiger" - I have never been that convinced,


Chris

In reply to AP Melbourne:

At the weekend I seconded my son on Heather Wall at Stanage. I decided not to tell him that at one point it was on my winter soloing circuit as in retrospect I'm not sure that what i did was that safe and certainly didn't want to encourage him to do take up soloing

But I think he has more sense than I did at the same age

In reply to AP Melbourne:

But it really should (underlined) only be for the benefit & joy of the soloist.

I think this is the key to what you've said. Alex Honnold really seems to be grounded, and to be doing what he loves. I am amazed by his achievements, especially his bold solos. But rock climbing is his career, and it would be a real worry if he, or another professional risk taker, felt the need to keep pushing the boundaries in order to maintain his career.

In reply to stevieb:

OK. Let's all shut up, move on, close the thread. I was only feeling concerned that's all.
Sometimes I talk too much (usually b*llox), sorry.
Night night,
x

In reply to Andy Hardy:

People have given this post dislikes but I think your actions sound pretty reasonable. If somebody has decided to solo Chequer's Buttress but is struggling to execute a simple 5a move, then it suggests that they don't have the experience or the appreciation of their own mortality to accurately assess the risk they're taking.
People like Honnold are well aware of what they're doing and make these decisions about what to and what not to solo in a very calculated way, that I think many people don't appreciate. Note that he popped a rope on for Lord of the Flies, a considerably easier route than the thing he soloed at Fairhead.

In reply to AP Melbourne:

Interesting question Andy, and could (and maybe should) be applied to 'bold' routes full stop.

I've done my fair share of soloing in the past - the freedom, unencumbered movement and spontaneity make it very addictive - and had a few near misses too.

No matter who you are, or how good you are, if you do it consistently, over a prolonged period - especially if you're doing it at grades close to your max - it's always going to end up a bit like Russian Roulette.

Or put it another way, it's a bit like doing cocaine or heroine. You can only do it for so long, before it f*cks you up. Unfortunately, attempts by other people to point out the risks, invariably falls on deaf ears - until it's too late!

In reply to AP Melbourne:

I don't think you talk too much. In fact, you don't talk enough...when's a second Punks volume coming out? Excellent stuff the first one. So, keep chattering away...please!
)

In reply to Will Hunt:




But wouldn't that have applied to John Bachar as well

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=48225

In reply to John Clinch (Ampthill):

Hardly a fall when focussed at the top of his game... nor Jimmy nor Paul. The risk factor must apply equally to bold routes (which are often effectively solo) but accident rates are also suprisingly low. The same story comes out of the YOSAR stats: time and time again accidents are preventable often involving loss of focus on easy terrain and rarely on the hardest pitches... in the big mountains its more russian roulette as many dangers are objective and more random. On the other hand: a young star died because quickdraws were wrongly set up; some of the worlds best climbers are lucky to be alive after failing to tie in properly; one stepped off a ledge; another had an old harness snap. All climbing is dangerous but controlling risk is part of the attraction and being in focussed control massively reduces risk.

In reply to Offwidth:

I don't think its about being at the top of one's game. The key thing is how far within your ability you are. But Jimmy Jewel was well within his ability when he fell. And Paul Williams fall came from a broken hold. Obviously such things can happen to anyone.

Certainly there's an element of risk in all climbing. There's a risk in just driving down the street. But the risk in most climbing is very much lower than when soloing and that's surely the significant point here. If a hold breaks when you've got a rope on your chances will be a lot better than when you don't.

In reply to AP Melbourne:


Andy, it's not just the deaths - though, God knows, they're bad enough - but the grief, the reverberations through other lives.

I remember being in Majorca with a non-climbing girlfriend, Essex girl to her immaculate fingernails, looking up from the day-old newspaper, saying, "Do you know a climber called Derek?" And, of course, in a heartbeat, you know exactly what that means.

Oddly the day before I'd bailed from soloing a 1,000 foot route, piss easy, but just got a bad feeling 100 feet up. Felt a bit silly back at the bottom again but then, with no warning, the heavens opened and, from nowhere, freezing rain hurled down. I'd have had the same choice as Derek, sit it out and succumb to hypothermia or... go for it on wet limestone (granite in his case). Not much of a choice. Didn't Stevie identify the body? Good on him. Can't have been easy.

Met Derek and Mr Jewell at exactly the same place, outside Stoney caff, introduced by the same person, Ian Jones. Both with the same devil may care smile.

Paul - physically a beast but with an odd vulnerability.

Noddy - bold as life itself but with an eternity of vulnerability. When he died, something died in me. For years afterwards, driving through Stoney, I'd look up, thinking he'd be bouldering above Windy Ledge, as though, if you somehow wished enough, he'd be there.

I wished and wished - but he was never there.

There are no easy answers - just people you were glad you met. And maybe for that we should be grateful.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Nice words Mick.

In reply to AP Melbourne:

I think its for people to discover their own truths. Telling someone to believe what you believe never did a thing without them being more or less there already. I'd argue that someone who solos for ego aught to stop (my long time rule has been don't solo something I find even vaguely difficult if anyone is watching, so the emotions don't become confused) but if someone is doing that often it'll take more than a quiet word for them to wind it in. A quiet word might even fuel the ego some. A drop of acid in their Nalgene might be a bit more effective, who knows.

In reply to Mick Ward:

So well put Mick,
Some of Noddy's ashes were tipped into the pockets on his favourite traverse at Stoney so he was 'with us' that bitter winter.
PW: I cried at my desk when Baxter rang and told me - am teering up now in fact. Dear Paul.
Loved Nick Colton's tribute to Paul in the video section - thumbs up.

Greenbanks - Thanks, kind of you that.
Best all,
And. x

In reply to AP Melbourne:


Sobering mate, and the ashes at Stoney are very poignant.



for the record Andy I'm not a disliker

In reply to Offwidth:

Assume the reference is to Lynne Hill who didn't tie in properly, clipped the chains atop Buoux and went a hundred foot having leant back ... ? Quite remarkable - Thank You God for putting that tree there ...
Reminds me of the bloke who's parachute failed to open but he speared in to a haystack from thousands of feet. Whinged about getting hayfever and rubbed his eyes for a week.
Honestly, some people!

In reply to AP Melbourne:

Not only Lynn Hill. John Long, well known author of climbing safety books among other things, forgot to finish tying his knot and decked at the wall once too.

In reply to Will Hunt:


surely if someone is struggling on a route while soloing, just about the worst thing you could do is start shouting up that they should get back down and that they're out of their depth.
You might as well be throwing stones at the poor bugger.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Oohh! That John Long is one character I'd love to meet ... get p*ssed as farts and carry on. He's witty, serious, 'been there and done it', a thousand tales to tell, no doubt (but I'd drink him under the table - ha!).
A true 'Leg' (pronounced with a J).
Bring it DownUnder JL ,, lets pardy!
AP.

In reply to deacondeacon:

He was repeatedly making the same movement reaching out to the arete then retreating, under control. There had been no problem until then. He came back very easily, put a rope on and did it with 1 runner. I held his rope.

I stand by what i did, it may be a trade route but I could not stand by and say nothing / watch while a good friend gets hurt.

And, with respect, you weren't there, the shouting was along the lines of "FFS R****, get down before you fall down "

In reply to AlanLittle:
Side note: one of the recent episodes of Niall Grimes's podcast "Jam Crack" has John Long reading "The Only Blasphemy", his story about a day he spent solo-ing with Bachar. Amazing in itself, even more amazing to hear the man himself read it, and rather relevant to all of this.

In reply to AP Melbourne:
Somethings are timeless.

Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.
Edward Whymper, Scrambles Amongst the Alps

In reply to Lenin:

Poignant, and more or less bang on

In reply to Mick Ward:

Yeah Mick, me too mate but over a bird. Wished and wished, searched, calling out but he didn't come. Second saddest moment in twenty years after my Shadow (sorry, you had to be there to understand).
Off now, toodle-pip,
And x

In reply to slab_happy:


So is Jim Perrin's tale of his coked up solo of Coronation Street - both good examples of taking it 'too far'.

In reply to AP Melbourne:

As we get older it is seemingly natural for us to err on the side of caution; we've probably pushed the boat in different ways on many occasions over the years, and have no doubt derived huge pleasure from our activities in the hills. We are still here to reflect and to get nostalgic, and to think of all the brilliant times - we carry on having good times, but knowing how good it all feels makes us wind it in a little when we're out playing now.

Do we say anything to a mate? Problem is, where do you draw the line. Mate climbs a V diff roped up, then roars off on his super bike and wraps himself round a tree, other mate pulls up in his Ford Focus and happily solos Old Friends. Who's living dangerously?

For me a more relevant issue is the role of the media here......treads carefully......... Taking risk is a very private thing imho, whether I get my kicks paragliding, soloing or on fast bikes, that's my choice. I worry that celebrity solos can glamorise this inherently dangerous activity. I take little pleasure or interest to read that AH has soloed some E8 at Fairhead. We're all thinking - stunning climber, but one broken
hold, one slip, and it's all over. Uncomfortable feeling. Go solo these routes if you like, but do I need to know?

In reply to Steve Wetton:

Nice, sensible reply that.
Of course being an ex-lunatic myself I understand what it's all about (wish I'd not started this thread now) and for sure, young Mr Honnold (max respect) is no fool and is obviously very 'calculated' in his choices - young shoulders, wise head. I get scared up a ladder these days, soft, computer tips and no b*llox (other than my posts on here) Ha!
Taxi!

In reply to AP Melbourne:

You should have no regrets about the post Andy, it's raised some thoughtful replies.
I hear what the person above says about the monkey on your back of the hidden audience (without even thinking about the media). I was bouldering in a deserted quarry the other week, fell off in a slightly dumb way ...and looked around to see if anyone had seen me. It was a deserted quarry.

In reply to steveriley:

Hope you're alright steveriley. Doea a falling tree in a deserted forest ... blah.
Never mind, only the birds and perhaps a squirrel would've heard the splat.
Where I live down 'ere there's a disused quarry called Newport Lakes - gorgeous black swans in the water and the best birdlife. You'd never know it was there - just a few Km's from town. It has a little cliff - I went to jump off it in a moment of madness once but thought f*ck I'll hurt meself it's not high enough ... walked along the base ... deadly Tiger snakes everywhere and the nesh little critters wriggled away. Who was that kid in Viz, Suicidal Syd? F*ckn useless, ha!
Let's all be well huh.
x

In reply to steveriley:


That sounds very familiar! I had an very unexpected fall at the Roaches and after the initial shock of hitting the ground I immediately looked round to check no-one had seen me.

Of course, if I had broken my leg it would probably have been better of they had, but the shame is interesting. Some of it is not wanting to set a poor example, some of it is not wanting to look like a prat, some of it is guilt at having been irresponsible (and nearly not getting away with it).

As for the original question, I think the state of mind of the soloist is key. I think I only once soloed something reckless for the wrong reasons. Generally I only did it when I felt good and I'm such a coward that it was always miles within my limits.

In reply to Dave Garnett:




Whenever I used to go to Stanage, I used to have my warm up solo circuit - the Rusty Wall routes, Narrow Slab, Central Trinity, Christmas Crack, Hargreaves Route etc, and always finishing with an up and down of Ellis's Eliminate - nothing too risky and nothing really above VS.

I must have done this circuit literally dozens and dozens of times over the years, and knew each route so well I probably could gave done them blindfold.

One Saturday afternoon, I was completing my solo routine and on my way back down Ellis's Eliminate. I was making the move from the lip back to the break and was in the process of getting a good jam with my left hand when my foot slipped and I started to fall. My right hand was just palming the rib for balance, so came off straight away, and I fell.

Fortunately - either by instinct or luck - I managed to get half a jam in with my left hand, and was left hanging from one arm. After some inelegant heaving and spluttering, I pulled myself up, and scurried back along the traverse and down to terra firma, much to the relief of a group sitting below Inverted V.

Now whilst I would have probably been unlucky to die if I'd have fallen, I would have been extremely lucky to have not broken several bones.

That's the trouble with soloing. Even on routes you've done dozens of times, which are well within your comfort zone, you never know when that little something just might come out if the blue, to take a great big chunk out of your rear end!

In reply to AP Melbourne:


That is no doubt true, but as a climbing author [who? Can't remember who/ where/ when] once wrote, this argument would be all very well except for the large numbers of elite, and careful, climbers who have pranged [often fatally] over the years despite everything.

Best wishes to the great Alex H., and no disrespect whatsoever to him, and RIP to those who have died.