UKC

How is it that people manage to move together on vdiffs-severes and hard severes? Can anyone explain the methods used? As my understanding is they are soloing tied together?
Rather than the methods of using a ropeman or whatever on a piece of gear.
Also, when you're roped up moving together, how do you manage coils, and are you constantly tying them off and readjusting? Or just holding hand coils?

Any good articles on the matter woukd be greatly recieved.

In reply to zimpara:

The same way people do in the Alps; in fact most people do it for alpine practice. Many good books and YouTube videos avaliable.

In reply to zimpara:

Leader puts in gear, second takes out gear as he climbs. Presumably the 2nd will be a better climber as it is worse if (s)he falls off. If there's too much slack building up the second can just slow down, or start clove-hitching loops to their tie in point.

There's masses of info out there. use google

This is the same way that fast ascents of big walls like El Cap are made too, I believe. Not the same as soloing at all e.g. ueli steck famously fell off when practising for a speed ascent of the nose.

Part of the secret is both climbing at a steady pace, so no slack builds up. It lowers the safety margin if the second accelerates when on easy ground and builds up a massive set of coils in his hand.

In reply to Siderunner:

So if you have 1 ropeman between you, you place the ropeman on gear moving together, then belay your buddy up to get the ropeman back and place again?

Do you not impart a half twist in the rope every chest coil you throw around yourself? Very twisty rope towards the end of the day?

I only ask as whilst on tryfan, half of the pitches involved walking up shattered ground and we pitched them.

But just can't see the safety in the system unless you have a ropeman on gear. As a fall is likely to be 10metres atleast onto a piece of gear you have long since left behind and probably meandered a bit route finding. Not to mention if there isn't a ropeman, just a second falling on a classic easy mountain route (even if the leader can hold the pull) is going to get messed up as it isnt steep and the fall to be inline with gear is probably going to be the sane as 10metre traverse unprotected at best?

In reply to zimpara:

You are correct. You don't move together if you think you may fall off!

It removes the chance of death when free soloing. The basic method is not completely safe

In reply to zimpara:

Moving together in this manner is more to stop you from dieing in a fall. It's a little safer than soloing but a fall is still likely to severely ruin your day.

For me personally the margin between wanting to climb in pitches and wanting to solo is so slim that I don't bother.
Perhaps in winter where speed is much more important it can be useful, but that doesn't really affect me

In reply to zimpara:
No ropeman involved. Just standard gear.
Strongest climber follows because if they fall they pull the leader off, while if the leader falls the second is pulled upwards.

In reply to zimpara:

It's more simple than you are making out, generally, both climbers take coils and tie them off. Then the leader climbs placing gear, and the second follows taking out gear. When quickdraws run low, you stop, belay, swap gear and continue. It's generally done in the Alps where speed is a bit more critical - frequently people complete routes in the morning before afternoon storms will in.

In reply to zimpara:
Another bonus is that you can do Hope, Lazarus and The Arete in the morning then Avalanche/Red Wall/Longlands in the afternoon while on an over-enthusiastic Classic Rock ticking mission even if you are crap like me

Downside is you might die :P

When we did this, we (or at least I) tended to put a fair amount of gear in - since we wanted alt lead ticks on every route that sometimes meant doing it for just a single pitch, belaying and swapping over for the second pitch. You can still save time since you save some belay faff. We also found closer to 15-20m of rope rather than 10m meant we always had a bit more gear on the rope - I guess you ideally want at least 3 pieces, and sometimes even 'easy' routes can be surprisingly run-out for 5-10m or so. Also, large ledges are inconvenient and can be unsettling for the leader as they walk very slowly across them hoping the second doesn't fall off before they get to the back wall and hopefully gear... this is where a microtraxion etc, placed on the last piece of gear, might be useful. We also did a lot of belaying past trickier (albeit still easy) bits. Even if the leader has just managed it OK, it is worse if the second falls off, so makes sense to protect them a bit more.

In terms of coiling the rope imparting twists: yes it does. But this doesn't cause problems as long as you remove each coil individually rather than taking the whole coil off your shoulders and throwing it on the floor.

I don't solo (or at least I don't set out to solo, with many exceptions like 'doesn't count as a solo if I'm trying to protect it' and 'doesn't count as a solo if it has a scrambling grade'), but I think I would be fairly happy soloing all the stuff I have moved together on.

What Thom said. It's not as sketch as it sounds, as remember the leader climbs stuff first, so can assess the chance of his partner falling off. So if I'm leading while we move together and suddenly find myself pulling tenuous moves that feel quite fall-offable, then when I get to a decent mini-stance I'll chuck in a couple of pieces and belay my partner through those moves on top rope.

In reply to Siderunner: That's actually a good argument for weaker climber first. As soon as they get to some moves they don't feel happy moving together on, they can stop (at some gear for at worst a hanging belay) and revert to pitched. The assumption is that anything the weaker leader gets up moving together will be ok for the stronger seconder.

In reply to zimpara:

Sometimes I clime alpine routs where pitching is generally impossidle as in case of snow covered ridge when first and second move together, seconding watches what side falls the leader and jumps to the opposite. A friend of mine one day saved lives of both, and it happened on a rock route in summer

In reply to panz:


Interesting recommendation ( in Alaskan guide ) to use two ropes on ridges , one each side.

Presumably when the ropes can loop down each side there is more chance of one snagging on the ridge if something goes wrong.

In reply to Rick Graham:

With grapling hooks attatched to both ropes hopefully?

In reply to zimpara:

Oh dear! Oh dear!

You have two dislikers lacking a sense of humour.....

In reply to zimpara:
GENERALLY speaking the most experienced climber will go in front & decide when to pitch harder bits, routefind, take in coils & move faster etc but will try & stay above the less experienced climber(to hold falls when climbing up OR down as remember these skills are used when moving on undulating terrain like gendarmed ridges,snow/ice aretes etc) but if its climbers of similar abilities then you just work it out between yourselves(one of the many benefits of having a regular,long term climbing partner of a similar ability)....its a great idea to try to develop these skills in the UK before attempting routes on bigger mountains...there are endless opportunities in the British mountains to develop the skills & experience to move quickly along ever changing ground where you can learn to improvise/alter techniques to be able to cover that ground as quickly as possible with the appropriate margin of safety for your relative ability as a roped pair...objective dangers are more varied & generally greater in the Alps or greater ranges & quite often 'speed is safety'....hope this makes sense

In reply to Trangia:



It may just be because you and Z are the only posts deviating from the originally posted question, oops.