UKC

noun.

1) The feeling of remorse and guilt arising from having voted 'Leave' and realising that your vote was counted, contributed to a majority decision and triggered the process for the UK to leave the European Union.

“No one in this world, so far as I know — and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me — has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby.”

In reply to pasbury:

I talked to an oldie on Nottingham rail station ,who told me that he had voted LEAVE as a protest vote against the UK establishment.RATHER POINTLESS,AS THE UK ESTABLISHMENT IS STILL FIRMLY IN POSITION,AND NOW OUR EUROPEAN OPTIONS FOR A LESS NATIONALIST- DOMINATED EXISTENCE HAVE BEEN REMOVED. Farage grows in strength and racist comments are increasing in public places already.The racially neutral police will of course arrest all who make outrageous racist statements.All this was entirely predictable.Protesting against the past history of the U k elite is a separate issue to leaving Europe.Leaving Europe was never a secondary issue to the protest that we little people are being ignored within our own borders.Having left Europe,we truly will be ignored.Our internal squabbling will only increase.The democratic right to vote has paradoxically increased the strength of the less democratic elements in the U K.

In reply to paul mitchell:


It's like giving someone with a gammy leg a saw and they cut off the wrong leg.

In reply to pasbury:

The amount of people I've seen willing to admit on national TV that they only voted one way thinking that it wouldn't matter but are now worried about it really has me questioning whether democracy's all it's cracked up to be.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:


The trouble with democracy is that two types of people also vote; idiots and those you don't agree with.
Time to get over it.

In reply to MaxJEF:


what? today?

I predict the next few months will bring a difficult negotiation for a longish term fixed rate mortgage (something I'd rather taken for granted after my current 3 year fixed rate tem runs out - oh and a big increase in mortgage repayments could put my ability to pay in jeopardy). Second - since the pension fund I pay into has probably been reduced in value quite significantly today and may be tricky for the fund managers to top up, I expect my contributions will increase within a year or two.

I am an ordinary working Dad with two kids - my life will be harder and more expensive.

So; no it isn't time for me to 'get over it'.

Consequences eh - who would have thought it?

In reply to pasbury:
"I predict the next few months will bring a difficult negotiation for a longish term fixed rate mortgage (something I'd rather taken for granted after my current 3 year fixed rate tem runs out "

This might cheer you up (plenty of other sources predict the same) http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-3657936/Brexit-pus...

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:


House prices in the future, Lewis says that needs a crystal ball
( best to borrow Osborne's as he said they would drop, and my youngster's cheered)

In reply to MaxJEF:

No offence, but everyone who has at least a basic understanding of economics or maths were telling it will happen. People voting out were well aware interest rates will hit the roof and £ will drop.

In reply to nutme:

Martin Lewis isn't predicting that.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

ah well there's a small silver lining I guess.

In reply to nutme:

As was said, Martin Lewis is not predicting that, and I have heard other ' experts' now say that the interest rates might well drop, and we will get more QE.
But those people who have said this, probably like Martin lacked a basic understanding of economics, or maths so are obviously wrong.

In reply to pasbury:






My Facebook is full of people going on about how they don't care that prices might go up and we might be taxed more and have less money in our pockets. It is worth it because we have got our country back!!!

Honestly, what sort of moron prioritises nationalism over quality of life?

In reply to Alan M:



The dangerous kind.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:


Dangerous and delusional. If the down turn arrives or we do end up poorer I wonder how many of them will be first in line to claim they are hard done by?

In reply to pasbury:

Anyone that stupid should be banned from voting again. For anything!

In reply to MikeTS:




That is one reason why we have compulsory education, so the electorate can hopefully make sensible informed judgements.

In reply to Rick Graham:

Interesting point. I wonder should politics and basic economics be a feature of fundamental education alongside the three Rs? Especially given the nature of democracy and the potential power of the ballot box.

In reply to Shani:


The problem is that the ballot box under our present system gives us very little power; the referendum gave us a lot. We're used to driving a Fiat Panda and we were handed the keys to a Ferrari. And crashed it.

In reply to pasbury:
Just seen this:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-vo...

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic.

I like this, though:
https://www.facebook.com/ByBukowski/photos/a.146977872069963.22284.14179435...

In reply to Rog Wilko:
The very article that inspired this post. I then went and banged my head against the wall for half an hour.

In reply to Rick Graham:

So obviously it fails sometimes!

In reply to MikeTS:

My friend recons there should be 3 basic questions on the ballot paper about the topic, and if you get those wrong then your vote should be invalid!

In reply to pasbury:

Regrexit

noun

1) The feeling of remorse and guilt arising from having voted 'Leave' and realising that your vote was counted, contributed to a majority decision and triggered the process for the UK to leave the European Union.

In reply to girlymonkey:


your friend is a muppet.

Intellect is no indicator of common sense or a moral compass. I knew a guy who when he was 25 finished his phd in computer electronics having just worked on elements of the early pentium chips, he asked me how you cook peas. Or as we used to joke with him, he can tell you the square root of an orange, but he can't peel it. Incredible nice and sharp guy, but he really needed a chaperone in life. Are these the boffins who are clever enough to decide us dullards future?

In reply to summo:


Yes, how many PhDs were there at Wannsee?

In reply to pasbury:

Can anyone coin a word or term for the feeling that occurs when you suddenly realise that all your calling the opposition "stupid, xenophobic, racists"*, didn't have the desired effect, and may even have been counterproductive?


* ©"I can eat 50 eggs"

In reply to felt:


I'll answer your completely ridiculous comment; probably quite a lot of Doctors of various types, which proves why every single person in society should have their vote taken at equal value, not only the educated working middle classes etc...

As much I might dislike the stereotyped lazy long term unemployed person whose daily routine consists of Jeremy kyle, the betting shop and pub.... I still think they are all entitled to vote.

In reply to summo:

You completely misunderstood someone who was actually agreeing with you (Hint: the word 'Yes'), but never mind.

In reply to summo:

And let's just have the number: "Of the 15 who attended, 8 held academic doctorates"

In reply to summo:
No but anyone who voted brexit purely because of 'all them immigrants coming here and given four bedroom houses, loads of money and jobs and jump to the front of the queue for everything like'

And there have been plenty interviewed on the Friday after the vote clearly are to thick to vote.

In reply to felt:


apologies, as I couldn't really tell which way you meant it. My fault.

In reply to Mark Westerman:


Well perhaps if remain ran an educated and fact driven campaign, rather than fear mongering their message would have got over a little better? Or perhaps if someone woke up Corbyn and Farron from their 6 month long snooze. Or perhaps if the EU had admitted in the first place it needed to reform and started the process in light of the forthcoming refenendum here.


special selected and edited as TV canon fodder?

In reply to Mark Westerman:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/liverpool-london-brex...

I thought that was quite interesting read. I can sympathise with the view that Thatcherism (loss of manufacturing), through Blairism and Brownism (uncontrolled immigration with less brakes than the other EU countries applied at the time and shouted down with xenophobe/bigot/racist) and coalition/tories (not much change but with added austerity) have brought lots of people to this point. Incredible that nobody told Cameron that this referendum was likely to be lost. What caused this complacency?

In reply to Big Ger:

If we start to tolerate racism and xenophobia it will just get worse. Just from UKIP support numbers its obvious that xenophobes swung the brexit vote. No one other than a completely stupid person thinks everyone who voted brexit is a stupid xenophobe but way too many were. Racist incidents motivated by the brexit vote have already started being reported.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-...

In reply to summo:



It was the beeb, so I hope not, but I take your point.

In reply to Offwidth:

Well that's one way to convert 52% of the british public to your way of thinking.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:
I just don't buy this idea of working class wages forced ever down by immigrants... Firstly, we have a minimum wage and soon near to a living wage. Secondly, the real pinch on the poor is due to a tory government that believes in austerity that hits the poor hardest: the alienation of the young poor in particular leads to a very low proportion voting. Finally, if the immigrants all went, the economy would tank and the poor would be worse off still.

In contrast plenty of xenophobic older folk (Excess and Fail reader types ) who are reasonably well off and do vote supported brexit mainly due to immigrants and sad nationalism.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

The impact of Thatcherism, Blairism etc are all massively exaggerated. The biggest change of the past 30 years is that 1.2bn Chinese people decided to join in the free market, and they were willing to work for a lot less money than us, and in a lot worse conditions. Under those circumstances, combined with a relatively low oil price, and a low tariff world, factories were bound to leave Europe for China, India and the rest of Asia.
We could have chosen to aim for high skill manufacturing, but this tends to require long term thinking and good worker relations, neither of which are the UK's strong points.

In reply to Big Ger:

The 52%? Many had pretty honourable views that I just disagree with (as I've said before here); those influenced by xenophobia needs challenging with the reality of the contribution to the economy and skills gaps (esp in the NHS) that migrants and immigrants make (rather than all this pandering to stupidity that I hear); Aussie points based systems simply wont fill all these lower paid roles. As for the racists, f*ck em.

In reply to stevieb:

Totally agree with your China point as well, but I still think there is validity in the course set by successive governments over the last few decades contributing. I don't think it's massively exaggerated.

In reply to stevieb:

Except most of what is left in manufacturing involves just that. Many niche high skilled jobs with pretty calm labour relations with skill gaps filled by migration.

In reply to Offwidth:

Why not?

In reply to Big Ger:
Because as an unskilled worker you would never get the right number of points

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29594642


.... that edit you include is for semi skilled workers where we dont have such a massive labour gap

In reply to pasbury:

Once the Brexiteers see that Boris Johnson is Donald Trump with a thesaurus*, they may reconsider.

*With thanks to Nick Clegg for that insight.

In reply to summo:


I think they tried that and got Gove: "we've had enough of experts".

In reply to Offwidth:
Fair comment, but it's not beyond human imagination to design one, surely?

Canada seems to approach this;

http://www.visassimply.com/canadian-visas/canada-low-level-skill-work-permi...

In reply to stevieb:

????? That is what we have in the UK, high skill manufacturing producing high value niche end products.At least get your facts right.

In reply to Big Ger:

Yes its possible to design such a system: free movement in the EU.

In reply to summo:

You know I was a remain vote and you will be surprised by mu comment below.

100% agree with your comments on the EU. Far far too complacent. The Uk has delivered a hard firm kick up it's backside, and I hope they will reform.Its a pity its too late for the UK, we now have to sort our own house out.If they do not reform its an archaic institution that will become a legacy from the last century.

In reply to neilh:

If we had had similar levels of support to most western economies for investment in the wealth creation of engineering since the late 70's we would be doing a lot better though.

Its nice to know we can always rely on you to remind people engineering is here and doing pretty well (despite its lack of support).

In reply to Offwidth:

But that's not wanted by 52% of the UK public, a visa system may address some of the concerns.

In reply to JEF:


It does feel like the height of daftness though, to vote in an important election in a certain way - thinking that it won't count - and later regretting it when you find your vote has counted.

It's possibly more the kind of thing you do as a kid, try something out to see what happens when you vaguely know you probably shouldn't. Not when you're an adult?

The reality is as it is, but it doesn't mean I don't think it's a daft way to approach voting for something. Am happy for people to have freedom to chose what they vote for etc though - that's essential in a democracy, but it's still a daft thing to do.

In reply to summo:



She's got a bit of a point though. It is not a matter of intellect or common sense, but the fact that many people (and many people does not mean all of them) voted for something completely different to what the referendum was.

The vote was pretty much for:

Do you want the UK to remain in the EU: Yes or no

Some people thought they were voting for:

- Do you want all muslims, non-whites, and foreign looking or sounding people expelled from the UK: Yes or no

Other people thought the question was:

- Do you want to give £350 million a week that we (definitely don't) pay to the EU to be given to the NHS: Yes or no

Another percentage of the population voted for:

- Are you happy with the way the current UK government has handled the finances, industry, job market, and housing in this country: Yes or no

Yet more people thought the vote was:

- Do you think the remain campaign has treated you unfairly and/or in a nasty way: Yes or no.

And the list could go on.

So seeing that, the idea that people have an understanding of what the actual question is and the possible consequences of their vote would be hypothetically not so far fetched.

In reply to Mr Lopez:














A very big +1

Nail, Hammer, Head.

In reply to pasbury:

Things like visa arrangements and travel restrictions don't matter to you if you've never been off the estate. If the sound of someone speaking Polish at the bus stop makes you feel physically sick and UKIP's poster makes it respectable to express that and someone says put a cross here and it'll all go away, you are going to do it. Life can't get any worse for you after all. What's to regret?

In reply to summo:

No it isn't but how on earth does one (clever or daft) make an informed moral choice about something one knows nothing about? In that instance a coin toss would be no less moral.


How did we get to the position where this sort of anti-intellectualism isn't just laughed out of the room. The idea that one person's poorly informed opinion is as valuable as another's thoroughly researched considered and tested position is dangerous nonsense. Our world is in large part knowable. The consequences of our actions can, with a degree of certainty be anticipated, the quality of our arguments and rhetoric can be tested.
jk

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Time to move on from this pointless way of thinking.

Its a democracy, everybodys vote counts.

In reply to jkarran:

There are many many reasons I find Gove repugnant but that mendacious anti-intellectualism bollocks last week is right up there.

In reply to Big Ger:

Actually a large chunk of that 52% want their cake (much reduced migration) and to eat it (a soaring economy now the EU 'shackles' have been removed)... pure deluded fantasy.

In reply to summo:


Speaking as one of Tim Farron's constituents, I don't think you can blame him. It's not his fault if, having a total of 8 MPs, he was ignored by the TV cameras.

In reply to summo:


Perhaps if people hadn't dismissed the educated facts as fear mongering we wouldn't be seeing so many people regretting their Leave vote.

In reply to Alyson:

And the "fear-mongering" was about outcomes which were entirely predictable.

In reply to Alyson:
My feelings don't improve when I see our local TV news (Border) - someone from Eddie Stobarts was explaining how he used a coin to decide which way to vote....

The coin said "Leave" apparently. You could cry if that is the way our future is decided ..


TBH perhaps what is left of Britain isn't up to being in Europe without feeling ashamed

In reply to summo:



Maybe you can peel your own orange, I can. He sounds like the right guy to ask when you have a question on computer electronics. Experts, eh, what do they know?

In reply to Yanis Nayu:


I posted something about the break-up of the UK in light of Brexit and was pulled up buy someone who considered it a prime example of fear mongering. I can't find the thread any more, but anyone who reads the wider press (Scottish and Irish), would be aware of how this may well play out as divisions have been entrenched and stability is being sorely tested. I notice Wales (net gainers of EU money), are looking for Westminster to make up the shortfall - which I am not sure they'll be able to given the fall in GDP and tax returns, so we can expect fault lines to open up between England and Wales as well.

In reply to Shani:

Yes, the break-up of the union was entirely predictable, certainly Scottish independence if they had the will of English and Welsh voters foisted upon them.

In reply to Yanis Nayu:
I've been sure of it as a consequence for a while. I was desperate for the UK to remain together 2 years ago. I was in Scotland over the voting period and took the chance to discuss it with Scots many times. I gently tried to tell the almost universal leavers among them how much many English valued their presence and the Union - I'd have been heartbroken to see us break up. One of the worries then was that they could make their own choice over the EU if the UK as a whole left. I said then that in that event they would be right to break up the UK and I stand by that choice if we are stupid enough to exit the EU based on a terrible and rather inconclusive debate and emotional coin toss. The decision to strip me of being an EU citizen, a status which I gladly confirmed in the 1974 referendum, and the break up of my country are each sufficient to break my heart.

In reply to pasbury:

As I've posted elsewehere, we won't be leaving the EU. Cameron has neatly sidestepped the issue by handing the poisoned chalice to his successor and nobody will have the balls to push the button.

In reply to Rigid Raider:


I have to say, I thought that was a fantastic move by Cameron; very cute.

It is very easy for those with no skin in the game to bray for one thing or another from the sidelines. Giving backseat drivers their opportunity at the steering wheel is an excellent idea.

I note that British patriot Nigel Farage has much of his fortune offshore. Again, no skin in the game...

In reply to pasbury:

I just double checked and it is definitely the case that stupidity is NOT a protected characteristic in the Equality Act 2010.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/4

In reply to Rigid Raider:

I don't see how the next tory leader can get away without invoking article 50. My last hope is that we have a very watered down leave where we remain in the EEA, maintain being in the single market and retain freedom of movement.

Edit - I'd love it if you were right though.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

I'm not so sure. I'd like to believe this but I think eventually, if we get a Brexiteer Tory leader and no snap general election it will be pressed. My hope lies in an election (hard to see how labour would do anything but crash & burn), a remain tory leader (unlikely) or a second referendum to 'decide on terms of agreement'

In reply to Jim Fraser:

...and making public racist statements continues to be illegal.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/racist_and_religious_crime/

In reply to pasbury:



I was for remain but to be fair, anything can happen in the markets and with mortgages, you could have got a longer fixed term if you wanted more security. Anything could have happened to make your costs rise when renegotiating. I wouldn't really consider 3 year fixed rate long term.