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Talking to Thorbjørn Enevold last night (a Norwegian mountain guide) he expressed surprise that Colin and myself still use bowlines to tie on with - citing the usual story about how they are hard to tie and hard to check.
I told him if folks can't tie a bowline they shouldn't be allowed to do complicated things like drive a car or operate a microwave (all in the best of humour of course) and as sons' of the Vikings who once explored the vast oceans they should embrace the mighty bowline.
So - are we really the last two people on the planet to shun the Fo8?
Chris
I told him if folks can't tie a bowline they shouldn't be allowed to do complicated things like drive a car or operate a microwave (all in the best of humour of course) and as sons' of the Vikings who once explored the vast oceans they should embrace the mighty bowline.
So - are we really the last two people on the planet to shun the Fo8?
Chris
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1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Nothing old-fashioned about a bowline, I always use it when I'm just tying the rope round my waist.
Nothing old-fashioned about a bowline, I always use it when I'm just tying the rope round my waist.
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
No
> So - are we really the last two people on the planet to shun the Fo8?
No
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Still bowlining.
Mick
> I told him if folks can't tie a bowline they should [shouldn't?] be allowed to do complicated things like drive a car or operate a microwave...
Still bowlining.
Mick
3
In reply to Mick Ward:
... after all these years. And me. Is there any other knot for tying on? (Genuine question... )
> Still bowlining...
... after all these years. And me. Is there any other knot for tying on? (Genuine question... )
2
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Bowline for sport
Bowline for tieing round my waist
Figure of eight for trad
Bowline for sport
Bowline for tieing round my waist
Figure of eight for trad
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Always have used it, always will. I was climbing was an Instructor in Sweden last week (on a slow journey to convert UK instructor quals to Swedish ones) and I asked him. It seems both are equally acceptable and they aren't an@l enough to require stopper knots on Fig8s either.
I think it depends on where you start climbing. If you progress from walking, to scrambling, to climbing you might miss the indoor loop where 'potentially' less broad skilled people will teach only the Fig8. on folk's first introduction to climbing.
For me bowline is quicker to do and undo, even after loading. It's perfect for in / outdoors / sport / trad... anything.
Always have used it, always will. I was climbing was an Instructor in Sweden last week (on a slow journey to convert UK instructor quals to Swedish ones) and I asked him. It seems both are equally acceptable and they aren't an@l enough to require stopper knots on Fig8s either.
I think it depends on where you start climbing. If you progress from walking, to scrambling, to climbing you might miss the indoor loop where 'potentially' less broad skilled people will teach only the Fig8. on folk's first introduction to climbing.
For me bowline is quicker to do and undo, even after loading. It's perfect for in / outdoors / sport / trad... anything.
3
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Always use the bowline, find it the easiest to tie. Never understand when people say they find it difficult? There's a rabbit, tree and a hole
Saying that I do use a figure of eight on the very rare occasion I do long multi pitch routes..
Always use the bowline, find it the easiest to tie. Never understand when people say they find it difficult? There's a rabbit, tree and a hole
Saying that I do use a figure of eight on the very rare occasion I do long multi pitch routes..
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Yes. Bowline with double stopper. IMO it's easier to tie than a F8 but then I've been doing it for over 50 years. or should that be
Al
Yes. Bowline with double stopper. IMO it's easier to tie than a F8 but then I've been doing it for over 50 years. or should that be
Al
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
I think it could also be considered in light of how many start climbing nowadays, eg intro courses at walls etc. I have never once been shown, never seen or never heard of anyone doing it at a wall. It's one of those rare things you only see once in a while.
Also as you're in Norway you are probably aware of how anal they are with climbing safety indoors now it's become so popular.
The best excuse I've heard for the bowline was 'it helps save face/ not look like a muppet when you start to tie in without making the 8 first.'
Personally I've never 'needed' a bowline but if I started to climb using it, I would probably also never need the fig.8.
I think it could also be considered in light of how many start climbing nowadays, eg intro courses at walls etc. I have never once been shown, never seen or never heard of anyone doing it at a wall. It's one of those rare things you only see once in a while.
Also as you're in Norway you are probably aware of how anal they are with climbing safety indoors now it's become so popular.
The best excuse I've heard for the bowline was 'it helps save face/ not look like a muppet when you start to tie in without making the 8 first.'
Personally I've never 'needed' a bowline but if I started to climb using it, I would probably also never need the fig.8.
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
I like a fig 8. I always tie in with one. I don't want options in that area. More variables means I'm more likely to make an error so Fig 8 every time for me. Each to their own though!
I like a fig 8. I always tie in with one. I don't want options in that area. More variables means I'm more likely to make an error so Fig 8 every time for me. Each to their own though!
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Bowline, and everyone I know who ever falls off also uses one. Why wouldn't you?
Bowline, and everyone I know who ever falls off also uses one. Why wouldn't you?
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
The bowline is undoubtedly superior in every way to a figure of 8. I would use it myself if I felt 100% certain I wouldn't mess it up and kill myself.
The bowline is undoubtedly superior in every way to a figure of 8. I would use it myself if I felt 100% certain I wouldn't mess it up and kill myself.
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In reply to GarethSL:
I work at a wall and I do see bowlines from time to time. Large majority use fig of 8 but there are some bowline users. Most tend to be either old-timers, who have been climbing for years and years, have always used bowlines and have no inclination or need to change. Other group are either hard sport climbers or wannabe hard sport climbers (i.e. those who try hard and fall off loads and those who want to look as if they do).
> I think it could also be considered in light of how many start climbing nowadays, eg intro courses at walls etc. I have never once been shown, never seen or never heard of anyone doing it at a wall. It's one of those rare things you only see once in a while.
I work at a wall and I do see bowlines from time to time. Large majority use fig of 8 but there are some bowline users. Most tend to be either old-timers, who have been climbing for years and years, have always used bowlines and have no inclination or need to change. Other group are either hard sport climbers or wannabe hard sport climbers (i.e. those who try hard and fall off loads and those who want to look as if they do).
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
A Fo8 is a thing of great beauty - isn't it a Celtic symbol? When you tie one you can feel the power of the past surging through your body. Just saying, like.
A Fo8 is a thing of great beauty - isn't it a Celtic symbol? When you tie one you can feel the power of the past surging through your body. Just saying, like.
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Not at all, I always use a bowline and so do about half the people I climb with.
> So - are we really the last two people on the planet to shun the Fo8?
Not at all, I always use a bowline and so do about half the people I climb with.
1
In reply to bouldery bits:
I like a fig 8. I always tie in with one. I don't want options in that area. More variables means I'm more likely to make an error so Fig 8 every time for me.
Lynn Hill might disagree with you: -
Basically I didn’t tie a knot. I put the rope through my harness, but I didn’t finish tying my knot. After putting my shoes on, the rope was still in my harness, but since I had a jacket on which covered my harness, I didn’t notice that my knot was not tied. When I got to the top of the Styx-Wall, I leaned back to abseil back to the ground and just kept falling. I don’t remember exactly, but apparently when I fell backwards I used my arms to steady myself as I was failing. I landed on a tree branch, which slowed me down before I hit the ground.
I like a fig 8. I always tie in with one. I don't want options in that area. More variables means I'm more likely to make an error so Fig 8 every time for me.
Lynn Hill might disagree with you: -
Basically I didn’t tie a knot. I put the rope through my harness, but I didn’t finish tying my knot. After putting my shoes on, the rope was still in my harness, but since I had a jacket on which covered my harness, I didn’t notice that my knot was not tied. When I got to the top of the Styx-Wall, I leaned back to abseil back to the ground and just kept falling. I don’t remember exactly, but apparently when I fell backwards I used my arms to steady myself as I was failing. I landed on a tree branch, which slowed me down before I hit the ground.
2
1
In reply to FactorXXX:
Has anybody counted the number of times this has come up on UKC?
Resisting the temptation to list my personal preferences and the reasons behind that way of thinking,
any recognised suitable tie in knot is OK... as long as it is tied correctly.
Has anybody counted the number of times this has come up on UKC?
Resisting the temptation to list my personal preferences and the reasons behind that way of thinking,
any recognised suitable tie in knot is OK... as long as it is tied correctly.
8
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In reply to FactorXXX:
If you don't tie a knot in the first place, what difference does it make which knot you were going to use?
> I like a fig 8. I always tie in with one. I don't want options in that area. More variables means I'm more likely to make an error so Fig 8 every time for me.
> Lynn Hill might disagree with you: -
> Basically I didn’t tie a knot.
If you don't tie a knot in the first place, what difference does it make which knot you were going to use?
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
A bowline is the only safe knot you can tie one handed, well worthwhile knowing how to when a top rope is dropped to you in extermis. I was once asked to demonstrate this to a group at PYB, the result was passed safe by the instructors.
A bowline is the only safe knot you can tie one handed, well worthwhile knowing how to when a top rope is dropped to you in extermis. I was once asked to demonstrate this to a group at PYB, the result was passed safe by the instructors.
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In reply to Rick Graham:
Has anybody counted the number of times this has come up on UKC?
Currently and including this thread, it's been discussed 127 times.
'Why not bolt it, you don't have to use them' has been discussed 96 times and 'Kinder Downfall, is it in yet' 93 times.
Has anybody counted the number of times this has come up on UKC?
Currently and including this thread, it's been discussed 127 times.
'Why not bolt it, you don't have to use them' has been discussed 96 times and 'Kinder Downfall, is it in yet' 93 times.
3
1
In reply to Al Evans:
One of my proudest moments was spotting a thread on the crux wall of Shibboleth, for some reason having a spare bit of 7mm handy, and tying a single fishermans one handed. We left it in.
Edit. Raised a smirk when I overheard someone who was down playing the seriousness and reputation of the pitch, " there's a thread runner in situ on the crux " .
> A bowline is the only safe knot you can tie one handed,
One of my proudest moments was spotting a thread on the crux wall of Shibboleth, for some reason having a spare bit of 7mm handy, and tying a single fishermans one handed. We left it in.
Edit. Raised a smirk when I overheard someone who was down playing the seriousness and reputation of the pitch, " there's a thread runner in situ on the crux " .
Post edited at 13:42
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In reply to Al Evans:
I don't mind which recognised knot they use, but I would hope in this situation someone would lower a screwgate attached to it so I could just clip in, rather than having to try tie-ing in whilst hanging on for dear life.
> A bowline is the only safe knot you can tie one handed, well worthwhile knowing how to when a top rope is dropped to you in extermis.
I don't mind which recognised knot they use, but I would hope in this situation someone would lower a screwgate attached to it so I could just clip in, rather than having to try tie-ing in whilst hanging on for dear life.
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
Always assuming you are soloing with a harness on,
Chris
> I don't mind which recognised knot they use, but I would hope in this situation someone would lower a screwgate attached to it so I could just clip in, rather than having to try tie-ing in whilst hanging on for dear life.
Always assuming you are soloing with a harness on,
Chris
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In reply to OwenM:
If you don't tie a knot in the first place, what difference does it make which knot you were going to use?
She tied half of the knot. i.e. she tied the initial Fig of 8, threaded the rope through her harness and then forgot to rethread the initial knot.
With a bowline, it's all done in one go and therefore you can't really forget to finish the knot.
Horses for courses though. Both knots are safe if tied properly, but people who keep stating that the Fig of 8 is safer because it's easier to tie and/or inspect, etc. are obviously mistaken.
I know both. I use the bowline by choice and the Fig of 8 if needs be. Maybe if all climbers knew both and their respective advantages and limitations, then there wouldn't be any need for such discussions as climbers would be able to swap between the two without thinking about it?
If you don't tie a knot in the first place, what difference does it make which knot you were going to use?
She tied half of the knot. i.e. she tied the initial Fig of 8, threaded the rope through her harness and then forgot to rethread the initial knot.
With a bowline, it's all done in one go and therefore you can't really forget to finish the knot.
Horses for courses though. Both knots are safe if tied properly, but people who keep stating that the Fig of 8 is safer because it's easier to tie and/or inspect, etc. are obviously mistaken.
I know both. I use the bowline by choice and the Fig of 8 if needs be. Maybe if all climbers knew both and their respective advantages and limitations, then there wouldn't be any need for such discussions as climbers would be able to swap between the two without thinking about it?
4
In reply to Chris Craggs:
"Bow Out" the cessation of using a bowline after a lucky escape following an incorrectly tied bowline not being recognised by a buddy check.
"Bow Down" the response to finding another bowline fanatic. Similar for "Bowwow
"Bowdlerise" The removal of figure of 8 use in adventure climbing biographies.
"Bow Tie" The elite neckwear of choice for the bowline fanatic.
"Bowsprit" the projecting ego of a bowline fanatic.
"Bowline" a knot used to keep things close to the wind.
"Bow Out" the cessation of using a bowline after a lucky escape following an incorrectly tied bowline not being recognised by a buddy check.
"Bow Down" the response to finding another bowline fanatic. Similar for "Bowwow
"Bowdlerise" The removal of figure of 8 use in adventure climbing biographies.
"Bow Tie" The elite neckwear of choice for the bowline fanatic.
"Bowsprit" the projecting ego of a bowline fanatic.
"Bowline" a knot used to keep things close to the wind.
Post edited at 16:01
4
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In reply to FactorXXX:
Figure 8s are obviously way easier to check. There are multiple bowline variants and some mistakes can be hard to recognise by non experts. History has shown us that even top climbers make mistakes tieing on, so a buddy check is sensible (and fine if your buddy knows and understands the bowline but in my experience many bowline users, like most figure of 8 users, just dont know their knots well enough). KISS xxx
Figure 8s are obviously way easier to check. There are multiple bowline variants and some mistakes can be hard to recognise by non experts. History has shown us that even top climbers make mistakes tieing on, so a buddy check is sensible (and fine if your buddy knows and understands the bowline but in my experience many bowline users, like most figure of 8 users, just dont know their knots well enough). KISS xxx
Post edited at 16:16
4
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In reply to Michael Gordon:
there are a few ways to tie a bowline one handed, not sure if it's possible with a fig8 though. But it would be way way down my list of reasons to use a bowline over a fig8.
> I don't mind which recognised knot they use, but I would hope in this situation someone would lower a screwgate attached to it so I could just clip in, rather than having to try tie-ing in whilst hanging on for dear life.
there are a few ways to tie a bowline one handed, not sure if it's possible with a fig8 though. But it would be way way down my list of reasons to use a bowline over a fig8.
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I use a bowline for all sport/indoor/toproping (and im definitely not an old timer!) because I am so heavy that even just lowering off can make a figure of 8 almost impossible to untie when pumped after a climb! and I only climb around 6a so I am far from hard core (or even trying to be) ether!
I use a bowline for all sport/indoor/toproping (and im definitely not an old timer!) because I am so heavy that even just lowering off can make a figure of 8 almost impossible to untie when pumped after a climb! and I only climb around 6a so I am far from hard core (or even trying to be) ether!
4
1
In reply to Rick Graham:
If I remember correctly the in situ gear caused a fair amount of indignant ranting at the time!
> One of my proudest moments was spotting a thread on the crux wall of Shibboleth, for some reason having a spare bit of 7mm handy, and tying a single fishermans one handed. We left it in.
> Edit. Raised a smirk when I overheard someone who was down playing the seriousness and reputation of the pitch, " there's a thread runner in situ on the crux " .
If I remember correctly the in situ gear caused a fair amount of indignant ranting at the time!
In reply to Colin Moody:
Nice to hear that
> If I remember correctly the in situ gear caused a fair amount of indignant ranting at the time!
Nice to hear that
3
In reply to FactorXXX:
You could pull the rope through your harness, put on your coat and still forget to tie it. As others have said, if you aren't checking before you climb, regardless of knot, you're asking for trouble.
> With a bowline, it's all done in one go and therefore you can't really forget to finish the knot.
You could pull the rope through your harness, put on your coat and still forget to tie it. As others have said, if you aren't checking before you climb, regardless of knot, you're asking for trouble.
1
In reply to Rick Graham:
I always use a Bowline when dry tooling up gritstone crack lines.
> Has anybody counted the number of times this has come up on UKC?
I always use a Bowline when dry tooling up gritstone crack lines.
7
In reply to deacondeacon:
add bowline for attaching your rope round trees and boulders too big for slings, so quick and simple to tie if you know the right way
> Bowline for sport
> Bowline for tieing round my waist
> Figure of eight for trad
add bowline for attaching your rope round trees and boulders too big for slings, so quick and simple to tie if you know the right way
2
In reply to Rick Graham:
Ah well, you see Chris is holed up in a tiny cabin in Lofoten hiding from the heat and wondering how much mileage he's going to get out of this. Don't be fooled, he's got a list of bowliners and eighters and knows exactly the outcome!
> Has anybody counted the number of times this has come up on UKC?
Ah well, you see Chris is holed up in a tiny cabin in Lofoten hiding from the heat and wondering how much mileage he's going to get out of this. Don't be fooled, he's got a list of bowliners and eighters and knows exactly the outcome!
Post edited at 22:22
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In reply to Chris Craggs:
Bowline for me too Chris.
> Talking to Thorbjørn Enevold last night (a Norwegian mountain guide) he expressed surprise that Colin and myself still use bowlines to tie on with - citing the usual story about how they are hard to tie and hard to check.
> I told him if folks can't tie a bowline they should be allowed to do complicated things like drive a car or operate a microwave (all in the best of humour of course) and as sons' of the Vikings who once explored the vast oceans they should embrace the mighty bowline.
> So - are we really the last two people on the planet to shun the Fo8?
> Chris
Bowline for me too Chris.
1
In reply to fellow followers,
Good to hear we are not alone - thanks for your support and bowliks to the rest of you,
Chris.
Good to hear we are not alone - thanks for your support and bowliks to the rest of you,
Chris.
3
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Stay with it, Chris. The thing about the bowline is that you can hang a dinosaur/elephant from a bowline loop and you'll still be able to flick the knot apart with your thumb when you dump the dinosaur. (Isn't 'Figure of Eight' the sequel to Game of Thrones or some such bananas?) The only knot sweeter than the the Bowline is the Carrick Bend, one of the truly beautiful style knots used for bending wire cable such as trawler warps together so that they can reeve through sheaves easily (Don't you think this is becoming gloriously arcane jargon bollocks, Chris - but all true. It makes climbing jargon sound like Plain English) Fishermen can tie bowlines with one hand - just like that. With one finger actually, provided they've got any left. Of course you and Colin are fabulously Dinosauric. Never let it go - especially a bowline. And keep inspiring us with great adventures in Bowlineland.
Stay with it, Chris. The thing about the bowline is that you can hang a dinosaur/elephant from a bowline loop and you'll still be able to flick the knot apart with your thumb when you dump the dinosaur. (Isn't 'Figure of Eight' the sequel to Game of Thrones or some such bananas?) The only knot sweeter than the the Bowline is the Carrick Bend, one of the truly beautiful style knots used for bending wire cable such as trawler warps together so that they can reeve through sheaves easily (Don't you think this is becoming gloriously arcane jargon bollocks, Chris - but all true. It makes climbing jargon sound like Plain English) Fishermen can tie bowlines with one hand - just like that. With one finger actually, provided they've got any left. Of course you and Colin are fabulously Dinosauric. Never let it go - especially a bowline. And keep inspiring us with great adventures in Bowlineland.
4
In reply to Michael Gordon:
They might not if they're wall-trained, because they'll have been taught that clipping on to a harness with a krab is "wrong".
Doesn't have to be a screwgate by the way. If you're hanging on screaming for a top-rope you want the quickest clip-on available. Screwgates can work themselves locked as they jiggle down the crag.
I'm a bowline man. Started with it, changed to Fo8/Karabiner/waist belt after a few years, back to bowline, then re-thread Fo8, and have now returned to the bowline, albeit one of the new ones described in Mark Gommers' excellent paper "An Analysis of Bowlines". Look it up.
> I don't mind which recognised knot they use, but I would hope in this situation someone would lower a screwgate attached to it so I could just clip in, rather than having to try tie-ing in whilst hanging on for dear life.
They might not if they're wall-trained, because they'll have been taught that clipping on to a harness with a krab is "wrong".
Doesn't have to be a screwgate by the way. If you're hanging on screaming for a top-rope you want the quickest clip-on available. Screwgates can work themselves locked as they jiggle down the crag.
I'm a bowline man. Started with it, changed to Fo8/Karabiner/waist belt after a few years, back to bowline, then re-thread Fo8, and have now returned to the bowline, albeit one of the new ones described in Mark Gommers' excellent paper "An Analysis of Bowlines". Look it up.
1
In reply to Al Evans:
A bowline is the only safe knot you can tie one handed, well worthwhile knowing how to when a top rope is dropped to you in extermis.
Sod that!
I'm a big fan of the bowline and as a party trick, can tie it one handed. However, it is very much a party trick and if I was lowered a rope in extremis, I'd probably end up at best tying a couple of half hitches. Perfectly safe for a static situation and it gives you time to sort out the ropes after the panic is over.
In reality, I'd probably tie the worst knots imaginable and lots of them! Who cares, friction will save you...
(If you can't tie knots, tie lots)
A bowline is the only safe knot you can tie one handed, well worthwhile knowing how to when a top rope is dropped to you in extermis.
Sod that!
I'm a big fan of the bowline and as a party trick, can tie it one handed. However, it is very much a party trick and if I was lowered a rope in extremis, I'd probably end up at best tying a couple of half hitches. Perfectly safe for a static situation and it gives you time to sort out the ropes after the panic is over.
In reality, I'd probably tie the worst knots imaginable and lots of them! Who cares, friction will save you...
(If you can't tie knots, tie lots)
3
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Never learned to tie a bowline because I've been taught to use a fig 8. Suspect it's the same for most climbers these days.
I can see why people use bowlines but for me the benefit (easier to undo after a fall) doesn't outweigh the risk (death or serious injury if I forget to tie a stopper knot and the bowline comes undone, which they sometimes do). If fact there's something reassuring about a knot which is hard to undo after a decent fall.
It would come in handy for tying ropes rounds trees though.
Never learned to tie a bowline because I've been taught to use a fig 8. Suspect it's the same for most climbers these days.
I can see why people use bowlines but for me the benefit (easier to undo after a fall) doesn't outweigh the risk (death or serious injury if I forget to tie a stopper knot and the bowline comes undone, which they sometimes do). If fact there's something reassuring about a knot which is hard to undo after a decent fall.
It would come in handy for tying ropes rounds trees though.
1
1
In reply to Al Evans:
Not quite. It's possible to tie a fig 8 one handed though probably harder and not something I'd fancy doing when in a precarious position because doing the initial 8 requires a bit of space and a very quick hand movement.
Not quite. It's possible to tie a fig 8 one handed though probably harder and not something I'd fancy doing when in a precarious position because doing the initial 8 requires a bit of space and a very quick hand movement.
In reply to Misha:
There are many solutions for a tree or a big rock (I prefer big slings to take the w&t) and a one handed clove hitch or half hitch are quicker and easier rescue knots. I like the bowlines, the best sports climbing knots, and a perfectly acceptable trad knot: so in UK terms as much about the future as the past, but my experience is that too many bowline users are fashion victims with faux elitism who don't know the knot well enough and are in denial about the problems and buddy check issues ... more dandies than dinosaurs. These occasional posts are usually strawmen arguments as the bowline is and will remain a very current knot and most performance sports climbers use it without any extra risk or air of superiority.
I still sometimes use the Chris Tan death knot so know my inferiority in the knot stakes.
There are many solutions for a tree or a big rock (I prefer big slings to take the w&t) and a one handed clove hitch or half hitch are quicker and easier rescue knots. I like the bowlines, the best sports climbing knots, and a perfectly acceptable trad knot: so in UK terms as much about the future as the past, but my experience is that too many bowline users are fashion victims with faux elitism who don't know the knot well enough and are in denial about the problems and buddy check issues ... more dandies than dinosaurs. These occasional posts are usually strawmen arguments as the bowline is and will remain a very current knot and most performance sports climbers use it without any extra risk or air of superiority.
I still sometimes use the Chris Tan death knot so know my inferiority in the knot stakes.
Post edited at 07:43
2
1
In reply to Andy Long:
Definitely, it just occurs to me one of the large HMS ones might be easier to clip in with
> Doesn't have to be a screwgate by the way. If you're hanging on screaming for a top-rope you want the quickest clip-on available. Screwgates can work themselves locked as they jiggle down the crag.
>
>
Definitely, it just occurs to me one of the large HMS ones might be easier to clip in with
In reply to FactorXXX:
I've done it for real, although not exactly in extremis, more a calculation that I'd prefer not to solo the next bit as it was running with water. The reaction from my rescuers was a gratifying "Wow, Old Skool!
> I'm a big fan of the bowline and as a party trick, can tie it one handed. However, it is very much a party trick and if I was lowered a rope in extremis, I'd probably end up at best tying a couple of half hitches.
I've done it for real, although not exactly in extremis, more a calculation that I'd prefer not to solo the next bit as it was running with water. The reaction from my rescuers was a gratifying "Wow, Old Skool!
1
In reply to Misha:
A bowline without a stopper knot is still a safe knot, unlike an incomplete f8. There have been multiple accidents where people have forgotten to finish their f8 before starting climbing. Climbers have lead entire pitches then decked when reaching the top and lowered off.
With a f8 if you get distracted while tying in you can easily not notice as a half tied f8 holds together. A half tied bowline however just falls apart so you're far more likely to notice. With most harnesses chances are the rope will just drop out as soon as you start climbing.
For this reason I'd say the bowline is the safer knot.
> doesn't outweigh the risk (death or serious injury if I forget to tie a stopper knot and the bowline comes undone, which they sometimes do).
A bowline without a stopper knot is still a safe knot, unlike an incomplete f8. There have been multiple accidents where people have forgotten to finish their f8 before starting climbing. Climbers have lead entire pitches then decked when reaching the top and lowered off.
With a f8 if you get distracted while tying in you can easily not notice as a half tied f8 holds together. A half tied bowline however just falls apart so you're far more likely to notice. With most harnesses chances are the rope will just drop out as soon as you start climbing.
For this reason I'd say the bowline is the safer knot.
4
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I almost always use bowline. Fig 8's are a nightmare to untie if you've fallen on them.
I almost always use bowline. Fig 8's are a nightmare to untie if you've fallen on them.
2
In reply to Lord_ash2000:
Quite so. When I use a fig 8 I use the tuck-back method as this makes it much easier to undo after a fall. Looks very neat too
I use bowlines a lot in SRT cave rigging too, esp in thin rope for the ease of untying.
> I almost always use bowline. Fig 8's are a nightmare to untie if you've fallen on them.
Quite so. When I use a fig 8 I use the tuck-back method as this makes it much easier to undo after a fall. Looks very neat too
I use bowlines a lot in SRT cave rigging too, esp in thin rope for the ease of untying.
In reply to stp:
....unless you don't pull it really tight. The lack of internal friction means that it's relatively easy for the end of the knot to push back into it and loosen / undo it. I know, because it's happened to me. Unless a bowline has one of the 'finishes' I don't think it's any safer than the 8.
I normally use the 8 for tying in, but as a boater I use bowlines all the time and will use them climbing to tie ropes round boulders etc.
> For this reason I'd say the bowline is the safer knot.
....unless you don't pull it really tight. The lack of internal friction means that it's relatively easy for the end of the knot to push back into it and loosen / undo it. I know, because it's happened to me. Unless a bowline has one of the 'finishes' I don't think it's any safer than the 8.
I normally use the 8 for tying in, but as a boater I use bowlines all the time and will use them climbing to tie ropes round boulders etc.
1
In reply to stp:
With a couple of half hitches, a bowline is bomb proof.
> A bowline without a stopper knot is still a safe knot, unlike an incomplete f8. There have been multiple accidents where people have forgotten to finish their f8 before starting climbing. Climbers have lead entire pitches then decked when reaching the top and lowered off.
> With a f8 if you get distracted while tying in you can easily not notice as a half tied f8 holds together. A half tied bowline however just falls apart so you're far more likely to notice. With most harnesses chances are the rope will just drop out as soon as you start climbing.
> For this reason I'd say the bowline is the safer knot.
With a couple of half hitches, a bowline is bomb proof.
In reply to Goucho:
I agree, but two is over kill. A 1/2 fishermans firmly against the bowline knot itself, preventing any movement, shouldn't require any attention all day. Prussiks and roped hexes are tied off with fishermans (as I'm sure you know), there is no reason for it to come lose.
> With a couple of half hitches, a bowline is bomb proof.
I agree, but two is over kill. A 1/2 fishermans firmly against the bowline knot itself, preventing any movement, shouldn't require any attention all day. Prussiks and roped hexes are tied off with fishermans (as I'm sure you know), there is no reason for it to come lose.
2
In reply to FactorXXX:
Why couldn't that have happened with a bowline (not being tied)?
> I like a fig 8. I always tie in with one. I don't want options in that area. More variables means I'm more likely to make an error so Fig 8 every time for me.
> Lynn Hill might disagree with you: -
> Basically I didn£t tie a knot. I put the rope through my harness, but I didn£t finish tying my knot. After putting my shoes on, the rope was still in my harness, but since I had a jacket on which covered my harness, I didn£t notice that my knot was not tied. When I got to the top of the Styx-Wall, I leaned back to abseil back to the ground and just kept falling. I don£t remember exactly, but apparently when I fell backwards I used my arms to steady myself as I was failing. I landed on a tree branch, which slowed me down before I hit the ground.
Why couldn't that have happened with a bowline (not being tied)?
Post edited at 12:25
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Bowline is just a better knot than a fig8. Easier and quicker to tie. Much quicker to untie. Plus it has other uses as a general purpose knot so knowing how to tie one quick and easy is just a good thing!
Bowline is just a better knot than a fig8. Easier and quicker to tie. Much quicker to untie. Plus it has other uses as a general purpose knot so knowing how to tie one quick and easy is just a good thing!
1
In reply to MrWayne:
Without sounding dogmatic, I reckon the 'best' knot is the knot one can tie on most safely with.
(I see what you mean though...)
Without sounding dogmatic, I reckon the 'best' knot is the knot one can tie on most safely with.
(I see what you mean though...)
3
1
In reply to Timmd:
Don't be silly. It's the one that's having the most fun.
> Without sounding dogmatic, I reckon the 'best' knot is the knot one can tie on most safely with.
Don't be silly. It's the one that's having the most fun.
4
In reply to jon:
I prefer the bowline, I just cannot think of any advantages for the Fig 8. except 1 % stronger allegedly if that makes any difference in the real world.
I prefer the bowline, I just cannot think of any advantages for the Fig 8. except 1 % stronger allegedly if that makes any difference in the real world.
1
In reply to Timmd:
Haha yes of course there is no best knot. Both are obviously safe knots, maybe the fig8 with a tie back is a good option.
I don't buy the whole its easier to check a fig8 arguement, in my view its a more complicated knot and it's not like the bowline is difficult to check.
Haha yes of course there is no best knot. Both are obviously safe knots, maybe the fig8 with a tie back is a good option.
I don't buy the whole its easier to check a fig8 arguement, in my view its a more complicated knot and it's not like the bowline is difficult to check.
1
In reply to Chris Craggs:
bowline for me. Been in a few siutations where its been handto untie quickly.
bowline for me. Been in a few siutations where its been handto untie quickly.
1
In reply to stp:
Bowlines without stoppers can and do
get undone, especially after a while - multipitch and alpine routes.
Bowlines without stoppers can and do
get undone, especially after a while - multipitch and alpine routes.
In reply to Misha:
that is why nobody ever ties them without a half fishermans. Problem solved?
> Bowlines without stoppers can and do
> get undone, especially after a while - multipitch and alpine routes.
> get undone, especially after a while - multipitch and alpine routes.
that is why nobody ever ties them without a half fishermans. Problem solved?
3
In reply to summo:
A knot which requires another knot to keep it safe isn't a good knot in my opinion but each to their own.
A knot which requires another knot to keep it safe isn't a good knot in my opinion but each to their own.
2
4
In reply to Chris Craggs:
I've been climbing since the early eighties. I've never used a bowline, never needed to and don't know how to.
I've been climbing since the early eighties. I've never used a bowline, never needed to and don't know how to.
2
1
In reply to john arran:
You can normally do better than that John. In over 30 years of climbing what do you think?
You can normally do better than that John. In over 30 years of climbing what do you think?
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
I think if you don't fall off you could use a single half-hitch
The more you fall the more important it becomes to be able to untie the knot again easily afterwards.
Even then I think the bowline is easier and quicker to tie so any advantage of Fig 8 really comes down to checkability, and since I've never tied a bowline incorrectly or had one come undone in almost 40 years of climbing, and very few of the people I climb with check others' knots routinely, that doesn't rate highly on my personal list of priorities. Then again I've never needed to tie any knot one-handed either so never learned how to do that.
Fundamentally what it possibly comes down to is: do you trust yourself to make sure you're tied in properly every single time (in which case use a bowline) or do you value the extra perceived security of a partner check (in which case you may want to compromise functionality for checkability and use a Fig 8).
I think if you don't fall off you could use a single half-hitch
The more you fall the more important it becomes to be able to untie the knot again easily afterwards.
Even then I think the bowline is easier and quicker to tie so any advantage of Fig 8 really comes down to checkability, and since I've never tied a bowline incorrectly or had one come undone in almost 40 years of climbing, and very few of the people I climb with check others' knots routinely, that doesn't rate highly on my personal list of priorities. Then again I've never needed to tie any knot one-handed either so never learned how to do that.
Fundamentally what it possibly comes down to is: do you trust yourself to make sure you're tied in properly every single time (in which case use a bowline) or do you value the extra perceived security of a partner check (in which case you may want to compromise functionality for checkability and use a Fig 8).
5
In reply to john arran:
I think we need to do an identity parade type test of wrongly tied knots.
Then I realised it would not work.
I do not know how to tie a bowline incorrectly.
I think we need to do an identity parade type test of wrongly tied knots.
Then I realised it would not work.
I do not know how to tie a bowline incorrectly.
3
In reply to jon:
Hmm - now you're asking! If pressed - and just to complicate matters - I'd probably have to plump for what Chouinard referred to as the Swami Knot; that's the one that looks like three quarters of a Fisherman's but with a loop sticking out of one end. There's the merest glimmer of recollection there, and as the name suggests it was a fairly standard tie-in knot among North American climbers at the time (1979). Whether the same was used both with his "cragging" multi-wrap webbing swami and with the Whillans that he dug out for walls, I can't say. Studying a few old photos didn't help one way or the other - although he generally appears to be wearing a grin so you're probably right about the "fun" bit!
> Of course he can!
Hmm - now you're asking! If pressed - and just to complicate matters - I'd probably have to plump for what Chouinard referred to as the Swami Knot; that's the one that looks like three quarters of a Fisherman's but with a loop sticking out of one end. There's the merest glimmer of recollection there, and as the name suggests it was a fairly standard tie-in knot among North American climbers at the time (1979). Whether the same was used both with his "cragging" multi-wrap webbing swami and with the Whillans that he dug out for walls, I can't say. Studying a few old photos didn't help one way or the other - although he generally appears to be wearing a grin so you're probably right about the "fun" bit!
3
In reply to Ian Parsons:
Was it Alex who took a humungous fall off something at Gogarth(?) If so did he manage to untie the knot. If (k)not, who was it... and where?
Was it Alex who took a humungous fall off something at Gogarth(?) If so did he manage to untie the knot. If (k)not, who was it... and where?
In reply to Chris Craggs:
If I was truly desperate I'd go for an overhand knot. Quick n easy and it works
If I was truly desperate I'd go for an overhand knot. Quick n easy and it works
In reply to john arran:
I've always thought that a knot which is difficult to undo after a fall is a good knot because it has done its job of keeping you attached! I'd rather spend a couple of extra minutes undoing the knot. It's a bit annoying when sport climbing but if I've taken a good fall, I probably need a by of a rest anyway before getting back on!
I've always thought that a knot which is difficult to undo after a fall is a good knot because it has done its job of keeping you attached! I'd rather spend a couple of extra minutes undoing the knot. It's a bit annoying when sport climbing but if I've taken a good fall, I probably need a by of a rest anyway before getting back on!
1
1
In reply to jon:
He briefly considered soloing London Wall - just after Jonny Woodward and Jill Lawrence had romped up it. He was tired though and didn't attempt it. He noted that someone would solo it. Took quite a while (understandably!) Not one to fluff.
Mick
> Was it Alex who took a humungous fall off something at Gogarth(?)
He briefly considered soloing London Wall - just after Jonny Woodward and Jill Lawrence had romped up it. He was tired though and didn't attempt it. He noted that someone would solo it. Took quite a while (understandably!) Not one to fluff.
Mick
In reply to jon:
No - it was Dan Lepeska (from Seattle). He and Chris Gore were doing Citadel, and he - leading the second pitch without bothering to place much gear to augment the resident stuff - somewhat unwisely "proof tested" Jack Street's original ironmongery and associated cordage. Alex was belayed at the top of the big pitch on Positron, and - I think - observed some of the action; how much of Citadel you can see by peering over the edge there I don't know. It was during the "American visit" in summer 1982. Conveniently, in view of the thread title, Andy P and Dom Lee (I think) were busy at about the same time on Dinosaur.
> Was it Alex who took a humungous fall off something at Gogarth(?) If so did he manage to untie the knot. If (k)not, who was it... and where?
No - it was Dan Lepeska (from Seattle). He and Chris Gore were doing Citadel, and he - leading the second pitch without bothering to place much gear to augment the resident stuff - somewhat unwisely "proof tested" Jack Street's original ironmongery and associated cordage. Alex was belayed at the top of the big pitch on Positron, and - I think - observed some of the action; how much of Citadel you can see by peering over the edge there I don't know. It was during the "American visit" in summer 1982. Conveniently, in view of the thread title, Andy P and Dom Lee (I think) were busy at about the same time on Dinosaur.
In reply to Misha:
I've been using a edwards bowline for a good few years.
It was once suggested you use the knot you can tie with your eyes shut, so if that moment of blind panic etc ever does arrive you can tie it.
For that I use a fig of eight. But when it's daylight, the edwards for me works, but I'm probably one of a few... check it out.
I've been using a edwards bowline for a good few years.
It was once suggested you use the knot you can tie with your eyes shut, so if that moment of blind panic etc ever does arrive you can tie it.
For that I use a fig of eight. But when it's daylight, the edwards for me works, but I'm probably one of a few... check it out.
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